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Post by graceworks on Nov 22, 2005 0:20:54 GMT -5
The Bible teaches a doctrine of grace and works...........that are manifested as a result of sanctification and salvation through grace. In fact it is mentioned many time in Titus. Read through Titus and count how many time "good works" or "works" are actually there. Salvation and works go hand in hand. If you are truly saved [by grace; a given], then your works will reflect that. This is not your own works, but the works of God manifested in you. Otherwise referred to as: "Godly works". It comes from God, not yourself. But Paul stressed that it is important to not neglect these 'good works'.
This is not the same as earning your salvation through your own works.
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Post by virtuous on Nov 22, 2005 6:00:47 GMT -5
agreed, and wasn't the virtuous woman of Proverbs 30 , praised for her many good works, as being an example of how we should also strive to live by....
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Post by Sylvestra on Nov 22, 2005 10:09:50 GMT -5
And was there anything mentioned about the "virtuous woman" earning her SALVATION with all the works she did? I know there was much praise for having done so, but that was all.
E
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2005 10:17:45 GMT -5
To me there is a significant difference between Christian evidence being observed and admired .. and the 2x2 system of life style demands being made on folks as a 'membership fee'! (or as conditions to be met for 'full fellowship')
Edgar
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Post by Pinochio on Nov 22, 2005 10:50:02 GMT -5
And was there anything mentioned about the "virtuous woman" earning her SALVATION with all the works she did? I know there was much praise for having done so, but that was all. E We like to hear from those ''silent'' women about how they feel, too...
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Post by graceworks on Nov 22, 2005 14:03:20 GMT -5
And was there anything mentioned about the "virtuous woman" earning her SALVATION with all the works she did? I know there was much praise for having done so, but that was all. E But that IS the point. We don't earn it. It is a direct reflection of being given a new spiritual life from God through Christ. I don't get where F&W are constantly criticised for trying to earn their salvation. They know salvation is only by the grace of God.
I believe that if one is TRULY 'saved', their life and works will reflect that salvation. Otherwise, the price that Jesus paid seems to be of less value. For goodness sakes, He died for us.....
That is not to say that a Christian will lead a perfect life, but that their life will have good works...........
Unfortunately, 'good works' is given a bad name in the world today. It is associated with self righteousness and hypocrisy.
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Post by graceworks on Nov 22, 2005 14:06:35 GMT -5
To me there is a significant difference between Christian evidence being observed and admired .. and the 2x2 system of life style demands being made on folks as a 'membership fee'! (or as conditions to be met for 'full fellowship') Edgar The 'membership fee' was paid by Jesus.....
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Post by Alan C on Nov 22, 2005 14:17:55 GMT -5
And was there anything mentioned about the "virtuous woman" earning her SALVATION with all the works she did? I know there was much praise for having done so, but that was all. E But that IS the point. We don't earn it. It is a direct reflection of being given a new spiritual life from God through Christ. I don't get where F&W are constantly criticised for trying to earn their salvation. They know salvation is only by the grace of God.
I believe that if one is TRULY 'saved', their life and works will reflect that salvation. Otherwise, the price that Jesus paid seems to be of less value. For goodness sakes, He died for us.....
That is not to say that a Christian will lead a perfect life, but that their life will have good works...........
Unfortunately, 'good works' is given a bad name in the world today. It is associated with self righteousness and hypocrisy. Graceworks I am a professing person and I agree with you. I know I can't earn salvation, I know it is a gift from God and I am taught these things by our workers from here and from overseas. I have never understood how different ones on this board say that we believe what they say we believe. We must do the works that God has put in our hearts because if we don't we won't have salvation.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 22, 2005 14:20:24 GMT -5
To me there is a significant difference between Christian evidence being observed and admired .. and the 2x2 system of life style demands being made on folks as a 'membership fee'! (or as conditions to be met for 'full fellowship') Edgar Edgar would you be so kind as to explain what these life style demands are? Could you also explain the conditions you speak of because I don't know what they are.
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Post by graceworks on Nov 22, 2005 15:03:15 GMT -5
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny [him], being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
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Post by Elaine on Nov 22, 2005 23:05:04 GMT -5
Alan,
In the same post you stated:
I know I can't earn salvation...
I agree.
And also:
We must do the works that God has put in our hearts because if we don't we won't have salvation.
I disagree because this statement contradicts the previous one.
Salvation is the result of believing the Gospel of God's grace, is instantaneous and complete forever. If it isn't then one is not believing the true Gospel.
There is a huge difference in the teachings in the Bible for those who believe and those who don't, for those who are already saved and those who are lost. To get these mixed up brings a lot of confusion.
Reading God's word with these two principals in mind will help to clarify what God's work is in our lives (salvation) and what we do in obedience to God once we are saved which results in rewards.
Salvation is deliverance. It means to be rescued or freed from a place of danger and brought to a place of safety. It also means to be preserved, to be kept. The salvation that God gives saves, or rescues, a person from eternal damnation and punishment for sin and transfers them to a state of eternal safety and security, of blessing and eternal happiness in His Presence.
Rewards are God's eternal blessings for lives committed in obedience to him after they have been saved.
If you believe any part of your salvation is dependant in some way upon something we do then Christ is of no effect. "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing"
"For by grace (unmerited favor) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9).
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Post by More From Titus on Nov 23, 2005 13:27:17 GMT -5
Titus - Chapter 2
Tts 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
Tts 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Tts 2:3 The aged women likewise, that [they be] in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tts 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tts 2:5 [To be] discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
Tts 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Tts 2:7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine [shewing] uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
Tts 2:8 Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
Tts 2:9 [Exhort] servants to be obedient unto their own masters, [and] to please [them] well in all [things]; not answering again;
Tts 2:10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
Tts 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
**I found it fascinating to note how many times good works/behaviour/good-type things was referred to; yet also the reminder that it is by grace we are brought to salvation in the first place.
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Post by kiwi on Nov 23, 2005 14:22:39 GMT -5
But Alan, you just said I know I can't earn salvation.
So which one is it?
Must you do good works so you have a chance at salvation (works)?
Or is salvation free and cannot be earned?
You stated two things that are totally opposite of each other.
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Post by The Price Was Paid on Nov 23, 2005 14:58:53 GMT -5
I'm not Alan, but I'll try to give an answer anyways...
In Titus it says both. You have received salvation from through the grace of God; but it is basically saying that good works are to follow.
Does this mean that we have to be perfect? NO.
Does it mean we could lose salvation.......doesn't say....
Do you think that someone is blaspheming the blood of Christ if good works or fruits of the Spirit are not in their lives as a 'saved' person?
The way I see it is that salvation and good works go together......if you are saved you need to have good works in your life. That's part of being 'saved'.
Do you think that once a person is saved and then abandons their faith and/or becomes an atheist that they are still entitled to the same reward as someone who keeps their faith? Or what about the person who is supposedly 'saved' yet goes on knowingly sinning and sinning and not repenting of their sin?
Christ paid an awfully high price for us to take it all lightly...didn't He?
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Post by A Work In Progress on Nov 23, 2005 15:01:51 GMT -5
........and it's not only a matter of having good works, but also abandoning those things which displease God.... Will it all happen at once? NO. Is it a work in progress.....hopefully so....... I think so....
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Post by grace on Nov 23, 2005 15:18:27 GMT -5
Good works are a result of faith.
Not in addition to faith.
A dog doesn’t bark to become a dog. A dog barks because he is a dog.
We do not do good works in order to be saved. We do good works because we are saved.
They are a result of being saved.
Good works is the child of faith.
Not the companion of faith.
Christ paid the FULL price.
Not just a high one.
The doctrine of works is deadly.
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Post by graceworks on Nov 23, 2005 15:32:03 GMT -5
quote: We do not do good works in order to be saved. We do good works because we are saved.
As I stated, "salvation and works go hand in hand...."
Basically we 'see' eye to eye; [Albeit, you seem bent on arguing, rather than discussing].....If we are saved we do good works.....if we are not saved, we don't do good works....
So let me ask you this: If a person stops doing good works, does that mean they are no longer 'saved'?
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Post by hand in hand on Nov 23, 2005 15:34:32 GMT -5
quote: "Good works are a result of faith."
Exactly. If you lose your faith, loss of good works follows right along behind loss of faith.
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Post by results of faith on Nov 23, 2005 15:36:02 GMT -5
So you see, it's not really a matter of 'earning' salvation, but more a matter of keeping your faith and the good works that are a result of that faith.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 23, 2005 15:41:09 GMT -5
Alan, In the same post you stated: I know I can't earn salvation... I agree. And also: We must do the works that God has put in our hearts because if we don't we won't have salvation.I disagree because this statement contradicts the previous one. Salvation is the result of believing the Gospel of God's grace, is instantaneous and complete forever. If it isn't then one is not believing the true Gospel. There is a huge difference in the teachings in the Bible for those who believe and those who don't, for those who are already saved and those who are lost. To get these mixed up brings a lot of confusion. Reading God's word with these two principals in mind will help to clarify what God's work is in our lives (salvation) and what we do in obedience to God once we are saved which results in rewards. Salvation is deliverance. It means to be rescued or freed from a place of danger and brought to a place of safety. It also means to be preserved, to be kept. The salvation that God gives saves, or rescues, a person from eternal damnation and punishment for sin and transfers them to a state of eternal safety and security, of blessing and eternal happiness in His Presence. Rewards are God's eternal blessings for lives committed in obedience to him after they have been saved. If you believe any part of your salvation is dependant in some way upon something we do then Christ is of no effect. "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing" "For by grace (unmerited favor) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). There is no contradiction in what I said in either statement. In my first statement it speaks of earning. My second statement doesn't. I would ask you to read. Tts 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tts 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tts 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Tts 2:15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee
**I found it fascinating to note how many times good works/behaviour/good-type things was referred to; yet also the reminder that it is by grace we are brought to salvation in the first placeI know I am saved by the grace of God, but if I don't do His will [works] I have no salvation.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 23, 2005 15:46:03 GMT -5
But Alan, you just said I know I can't earn salvation. So which one is it? Must you do good works so you have a chance at salvation (works)? Or is salvation free and cannot be earned? You stated two things that are totally opposite of each other. Also a Kiwi I would ask can you have salvation without doing Gods will? The works I am speaking of, are the will of God.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 23, 2005 15:46:58 GMT -5
I'm not Alan, but I'll try to give an answer anyways... In Titus it says both. You have received salvation from through the grace of God; but it is basically saying that good works are to follow. Does this mean that we have to be perfect? NO. Does it mean we could lose salvation.......doesn't say.... Do you think that someone is blaspheming the blood of Christ if good works or fruits of the Spirit are not in their lives as a 'saved' person? The way I see it is that salvation and good works go together......if you are saved you need to have good works in your life. That's part ofbeing 'saved'. Do you think that once a person is saved and then abandons their faith and/or becomes an atheist that they are still entitled to the same reward as someone who keeps their faith? Or what about the person who is supposedly 'saved' yet goes on knowingly sinning and sinning and not repenting of their sin? Christ paid an awfully high price for us to take it all lightly...didn't He? I agree
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Post by to grace on Nov 23, 2005 15:56:52 GMT -5
You seem to be picking and choosing those points with which you like to argue about, YET, you are completely ignoring other fine points that are being brought up in this thread.
You seem to skim over some scripture here that Alan has been kind enough to point out again.
And that is part of the ENTIRE ISSUE. Picking one without the other is not complete..There are 'Christians' who don't think they have to be very Christ-like simply because 'I cannot earn my salvation'; Jesus paid the price; once saved always saved; all you need is faith. But as has been pointed out BY YOU: Faith and Works GO TOGETHER.
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Post by shhhhh on Nov 23, 2005 16:14:08 GMT -5
You seem to be picking and choosing those points with which you like to argue about, YET, you are completely ignoring other fine points that are being brought up in this thread.
You seem to skim over some scripture here that Alan has been kind enough to point out again.
And that is part of the ENTIRE ISSUE. Picking one without the other is not complete..There are 'Christians' who don't think they have to be very Christ-like simply because 'I cannot earn my salvation'; Jesus paid the price; once saved always saved; all you need is faith. But as has been pointed out BY YOU: Faith and Works GO TOGETHER. Okay, you can quit yelling from the pulpit already. sheesh.
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Earning Eternal Rewards
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Post by Earning Eternal Rewards on Nov 23, 2005 16:18:07 GMT -5
Elaine Wrote: "Rewards are God's eternal blessings for lives committed in obedience to him after they have been saved."
To paraphrase, are you saying:We EARN eternal blessings.....by being obedient?
Is this not the same line of thinking that we do 'good works' as a manifestation of 'being saved'/obtaining salvation? And that in the end we have eternal rewards? Grace/works and doing God's will go hand in hand with salvation.......?
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Post by to Elaine on Nov 23, 2005 16:27:10 GMT -5
Alan, In the same post you stated: I know I can't earn salvation... I agree. And also: We must do the works that God has put in our hearts because if we don't we won't have salvation.I disagree because this statement contradicts the previous one. Salvation is the result of believing the Gospel of God's grace, is instantaneous and complete forever. If it isn't then one is not believing the true Gospel. There is a huge difference in the teachings in the Bible for those who believe and those who don't, for those who are already saved and those who are lost. To get these mixed up brings a lot of confusion. Reading God's word with these two principals in mind will help to clarify what God's work is in our lives (salvation) and what we do in obedience to God once we are saved which results in rewards. Salvation is deliverance. It means to be rescued or freed from a place of danger and brought to a place of safety. It also means to be preserved, to be kept. The salvation that God gives saves, or rescues, a person from eternal damnation and punishment for sin and transfers them to a state of eternal safety and security, of blessing and eternal happiness in His Presence. Rewards are God's eternal blessings for lives committed in obedience to him after they have been saved.If you believe any part of your salvation is dependant in some way upon something we do then Christ is of no effect. "...if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing" "For by grace (unmerited favor) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8,9). I note a contradiction in your message, Elaine. On the one hand you state salvation is instantaneous and complete forever. Yet on the other hand you state we earn eternal rewards/blessings for lives [that are] 'COMMITTED IN OBEDIENCE TO HIM".
We could take a step farther and ask: What does it mean to have lives that are 'committed in obedience' to God? Isn't that manifested by our works or the Spiritual fruit we bear? I thank you in advance for your patience and kindness in explaining this to me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2005 18:10:17 GMT -5
Maybe a better question would be: What exactly are the good works that go hand-in-hand with having faith?
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Post by Alan C on Nov 23, 2005 19:29:35 GMT -5
Maybe a better question would be: What exactly are the good works that go hand-in-hand with having faith? What God has asked us to do. His will.
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