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Post by simplicity on Nov 20, 2005 21:16:51 GMT -5
God's true servants don't get paid anything for what they do except for the joy and satisfaction they have in the labor of love in the harvest field.
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Post by firstborn on Nov 20, 2005 21:42:24 GMT -5
What!!! What happened to all the money I used to give them.....
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Post by money honey on Nov 20, 2005 22:05:54 GMT -5
I never gave them any money and they never asked for any money............it's not an issue!
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Post by jason storebo on Nov 20, 2005 23:20:23 GMT -5
I believe the money that is given is used for things like gas, toiletries, clothing, trips to the dentist, maybe even fast-food & air-fare to other places. I doubt if they spend it on lavish treats for themselves. I doubt if many of the workers have ritzy homes, yachts, multiple luxury cars or lavish houses for their pet dogs. Perhaps Dennis, or Paul, or Greg could help enlighten us regarding worker expenditures.
What happens to all the money that denominational ministers take in?
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Post by Mary12 on Nov 20, 2005 23:27:57 GMT -5
Most of the money the denominational ministers take in goes for the Lord's work. The pastor only gets a small portion. I know of pastors that left good paying jobs to become pastors on a fraction of what they were getting.
How much of the money that workers get goes on trips overseas, and convention grounds. Some of them don't seem too poorly dressed either. I am sure some of them are better off (staying in better houses and driving flasher cars) than ministers.
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Post by nathan7 on Nov 20, 2005 23:55:01 GMT -5
Most of the money the denominational ministers take in goes for the Lord's work. The pastor only gets a small portion. I know of pastors that left good paying jobs to become pastors on a fraction of what they were getting. How much of the money that workers get goes on trips overseas, and convention grounds. Some of them don't seem too poorly dressed either. I am sure some of them are better off (staying in better houses and driving flasher cars) than ministers. Are you saying the workers using the friends' money to travel to different conventions not doing the Lord's work? What work are they doing then? If these ministers follow the 2x2 Itinerant ministry they too would enjoy better houses and flasher cars as you call them.
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Post by Paul Abenroth on Nov 21, 2005 0:02:05 GMT -5
Technically, the ministers are not the ones who "take it in."
The money is received by elders or other lay persons and deposited into the church organization's account. It is my understanding that in many cases the pastor or minister does not handle it. The money is entered into the church bookkeeping system.
The pastor is paid his pre-arranged salary out of the church's bank account -- not directly out of the collections and contributions received, and in many cases the pastor's salary is less that the amounts spent by the church on charitable programs, building maintenance, and domestic and foreign missions.
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Post by ex-teenager on Nov 21, 2005 6:14:53 GMT -5
Most of the money the denominational ministers take in goes for the Lord's work. The pastor only gets a small portion. I know of pastors that left good paying jobs to become pastors on a fraction of what they were getting. How much of the money that workers get goes on trips overseas, and convention grounds. Some of them don't seem too poorly dressed either. I am sure some of them are better off (staying in better houses and driving flasher cars) than ministers. Woops, wrong oh! In my home town there are about 7 churchs one Roman Catholic, they spent about $800,000 on a home for their nuns. And about $400,000 a few years ago on their Chapel. The Free Presbyterians, spent about $400,000 dollars on a home for their minister. The Presbyterians spent $500,000 on a home for their minister, and are currently building a new church hall. The Congregational Church spent about $400,000 dollars on their ministers home -- Plus another $100,000 on their church buildings. Now the First Presbyterians are in the process of building a new home for their minister. Only a few years ago they spent $150,000 on new church buildings. That leaves the Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Plus the ministers wages/salary averaging $50,000 a year. so thats about, $3,000,000 + $300,000 for a years wage packet. Plus they dont appear poorly dressed, drive cars worth about $30,000 and so on. And I dont live in a huge town the population is no more that 10,000. Thats how it is in my part of the world... And im sorry to say it cant be justified. How much is that?
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Post by gregleeinnd on Nov 21, 2005 6:21:12 GMT -5
Most of the money the denominational ministers take in goes for the Lord's work. The pastor only gets a small portion. I know of pastors that left good paying jobs to become pastors on a fraction of what they were getting. How much of the money that workers get goes on trips overseas, and convention grounds. Some of them don't seem too poorly dressed either. I am sure some of them are better off (staying in better houses and driving flasher cars) than ministers. Woops, wrong oh! In my home town there are about 7 churchs one Roman Catholic, they spent about $800,000 on a home for their nuns. And about $400,000 a few years ago on their Chapel. The Free Presbyterians, spent about $400,000 dollars on a home for their minister. The Presbyterians spent $500,000 on a home for their minister, and are currently building a new church hall. The Congregational Church spent about $400,000 dollars on their ministers home -- Plus another $100,000 on their church buildings. Now the First Presbyterians are in the process of building a new home for their minister. Only a few years ago they spent $150,000 on new church buildings. That leaves the Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Plus the ministers wages/salary averaging $50,000 a year. so thats about, $3,000,000 + $300,000 for a years wage packet. Plus they dont appear poorly dressed, drive cars worth about $30,000 and so on. And I dont live in a huge town the population is no more that 10,000. Thats how it is in my part of the world... And im sorry to say it cant be justified. How much is that? Quite interesting that you know how much those churches spent. How much has your church spent in like use? Further, how many missionaries do they have compared to your workers? Just heard recently a church is looking to send 30 gospel workers (their term) to west Africa. The support cost for those workers is $12.50 per month per worker. And yes, they live among those to whom they preach and minister.
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Post by thinking on Nov 21, 2005 7:14:57 GMT -5
Greg, You haven't answered the question posed to you... What were YOU paid as a worker? and what lifestyle did you enjoy from the "proceeds" donated to the "workers' church?
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Post by ex-teenager on Nov 21, 2005 7:33:17 GMT -5
Woops, wrong oh! In my home town there are about 7 churchs one Roman Catholic, they spent about $800,000 on a home for their nuns. And about $400,000 a few years ago on their Chapel. The Free Presbyterians, spent about $400,000 dollars on a home for their minister. The Presbyterians spent $500,000 on a home for their minister, and are currently building a new church hall. The Congregational Church spent about $400,000 dollars on their ministers home -- Plus another $100,000 on their church buildings. Now the First Presbyterians are in the process of building a new home for their minister. Only a few years ago they spent $150,000 on new church buildings. That leaves the Methodists, Baptists and Anglicans. Plus the ministers wages/salary averaging $50,000 a year. so thats about, $3,000,000 + $300,000 for a years wage packet. Plus they dont appear poorly dressed, drive cars worth about $30,000 and so on. And I dont live in a huge town the population is no more that 10,000. Thats how it is in my part of the world... And im sorry to say it cant be justified. How much is that? Quite interesting that you know how much those churches spent. How much has your church spent in like use? Further, how many missionaries do they have compared to your workers? Just heard recently a church is looking to send 30 gospel workers (their term) to west Africa. The support cost for those workers is $12.50 per month per worker. And yes, they live among those to whom they preach and minister. Well can it be justified? $3,000,000? Mary 12 said most of it takes in the Lords good work, this money has been spent in the last 5 years, not 20 or 30 years.
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Post by gregleeinnd on Nov 21, 2005 7:40:35 GMT -5
Greg, You haven't answered the question posed to you... What were YOU paid as a worker? and what lifestyle did you enjoy from the "proceeds" donated to the "workers' church? You just keep thinking...and wondering....and replying....and guesting...
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Post by gregleeinnd on Nov 21, 2005 7:44:00 GMT -5
Well can it be justified? $3,000,000? Mary 12 said most of it takes in the Lords good work, this money has been spent in the last 5 years, not 20 or 30 years. Who is going to judge? Maybe that money was spent in the last 5 years, but how long will those buildings last? Perhaps 20-40 years or more? Also, you have not indicated how Mary12 is in error.
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Post by ex-teenager on Nov 21, 2005 7:47:14 GMT -5
OK have a good long think on it.
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Post by spiderman on Nov 21, 2005 8:51:33 GMT -5
This money thing is a touchy subject. I hesitate to fault anyone here. It's scriptural to give. We've been to two churches lately where the pastors were trying their best to make the congregation feel guilty for not giving enough. The context both times was the same. "If you give enough, even if you can't afford it, God will bless you." THAT line of thinking is NOT scriptural. I've never heard anything like that come from a worker or one of the friends, to their credit. I think maybe some of these churches have fallen into a dangerous trap without really thinking it through. It's kind of depressing to hear it first hand.
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Seed Money Health and Wealth
Guest
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Post by Seed Money Health and Wealth on Nov 21, 2005 9:25:01 GMT -5
What Spiderman has been hearing at his local church is a direct result of the television preaching of today. It has spilled over from the "health and wealth" far from normal churches into the mainstream churches. We, too, witnessed the same thing and we confronted our pastor. He preached how he and his wife made a committment to give more than they had ever given before (planting that "seed money") and how God blessed them 100 fold because of their giving the church more. We pointed out to him (in private) that in the past two years they had two teenage sons graduate high school and move on to college with full-ride scholarships. Who wouldn't have increase under that same situation? They became empty-nesters in the same two years of which he was speaking.
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Post by spiderman on Nov 21, 2005 9:56:03 GMT -5
This last guy even said he wasn't preaching "health and wealth" but then went right ahead and did it anyway. I tried my best to get into the music and spirit of the thing. I know some people say they are fed by the rock band and the music etc., but I'm not there yet. Maybe I never will be. Believe me, I don't have anything against rock music, it just feels out of place when I'm worshiping or trying to be fed by God. For others it seems to work. Maybe I'm to be banished to fellowship all by myself. I get physically ill when I hear preachers putting the guilt trip on people for not giving enough. Is God pleased with that message? Is that what Jesus died for? It just sickens me.
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Post by jh62 not logged in on Nov 21, 2005 10:03:25 GMT -5
Let's face it...we live in a world where money corrupts so many things...religion, legal systems, medical systems, etc., etc., etc. I'm not saying money is the root of all evil because it sure comes in handy when it's time to pay the bills, and I believe it can also produce good. I also believe that if we're looking for the perfect church, the perfect preacher or a perfect people, we're going to be sadly disappointed. Which brings me to the original post that began this thread. Yes, it's admirable that the workers aren't paid a salary. There are many good things about the church that so many of us were a part of for so long. If there weren't good aspects of it, I doubt any of us would have been a part of it. Is it the perfect church? No. Are the people perfect? No. It reminds me that all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. I think it's time to quit focussing on the righteousnesses of the workers and look to God as our only hope.
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Post by spiderman on Nov 21, 2005 10:07:05 GMT -5
Agreed
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Post by Pick and Choose on Nov 21, 2005 10:13:49 GMT -5
We've been out 16 years and haven't been fed by any rock band nor many of the songs they call hymns today. There is a great variety of contemporary music, some of which is uplifting and meaningful and some of which is worthless. The songs which are usually titled, "hymns of worship" are those which say nothing over and over and over, and are, unfortunately, the most popular in church today.
We were in church one week when the father of the family behind us became fed up and started singing, to the tune of the song, the word, "repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat." We were laughing so hard we had to leave for a few minutes to gain our composure.
In all seriousness, we have come to realize that people who don't understand what Jesus is all about, who don't have a personal relationship with him, are not able to grasp nor appreciate the hymns of old (from the 1400s through 1800s and early 1900s). Rather than preach the gospel, they are trying to preach that to which people can relate and Jesus becomes lost and not taught. There are upbeat tempos but the words are nothings. The churches want to appeal to everyone, but when they attempt to do this they are compromising the beautiful gospel.
We've seen advertised free oil change when you come to worship!
As the saying goes, "If you have to compromise to get them into your church, you'll have to compromise to keep them in your church."
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2005 10:19:38 GMT -5
One of my favorite hymns today contains the verse:
Could we with ink the ocean fill, And were the skies of parchment made, Were every stalk on earth a quill, And every man a scribe by trade, To write the love of God above, Would drain the ocean dry. Nor could the scroll contain the whole, Though stretched from sky to sky.
(Written in 1917 by Frederick Lehman; arranged by his daughter, Claudia L. Mays)
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Post by ex-teenager on Nov 21, 2005 10:22:27 GMT -5
We've been out 16 years and haven't been fed by any rock band nor many of the songs they call hymns today. There is a great variety of contemporary music, some of which is uplifting and meaningful and some of which is worthless. The songs which are usually titled, "hymns of worship" are those which say nothing over and over and over, and are, unfortunately, the most popular in church today. We were in church one week when the father of the family behind us became fed up and started singing, to the tune of the song, the word, "repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat." We were laughing so hard we had to leave for a few minutes to gain our composure. In all seriousness, we have come to realize that people who don't understand what Jesus is all about, who don't have a personal relationship with him, are not able to grasp nor appreciate the hymns of old (from the 1400s through 1800s and early 1900s). Rather than preach the gospel, they are trying to preach that to which people can relate and Jesus becomes lost and not taught. There are upbeat tempos but the words are nothings. The churches want to appeal to everyone, but when they attempt to do this they are compromising the beautiful gospel. We've seen advertised free oil change when you come to worship! As the saying goes, "If you have to compromise to get them into your church, you'll have to compromise to keep them in your church." I was at a funeral recently in a church and I have to say the music was very uplifting, I want a recording of the hymn they sang i looved it so much!
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Post by Casper on Nov 21, 2005 11:12:29 GMT -5
Over in the U S of A, do you guys get tax deductions for donations to religious orginizations?
Do ministers of religion pay tax?
Do churches pay tax?
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Post by money on Nov 21, 2005 12:24:19 GMT -5
In my town, a very large 'popular' denominational church is going to build a multimillion dollar newer and bigger building...........next to the nice new big one they already have........where is the money coming from? They are going to take out a loan. Then probably worry about paying for it later; they will then likely 'badger' their members to tithe, teaching that tithing is a Biblical commandment.
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Post by Amen Spiderman on Nov 21, 2005 12:33:49 GMT -5
Spiderman wrote: This money thing is a touchy subject. I hesitate to fault anyone here. It's scriptural to give. We've been to two churches lately where the pastors were trying their best to make the congregation feel guilty for not giving enough. The context both times was the same. "If you give enough, even if you can't afford it, God will bless you." THAT line of thinking is NOT scriptural. I've never heard anything like that come from a worker or one of the friends, to their credit. I think maybe some of these churches have fallen into a dangerous trap without really thinking it through. It's kind of depressing to hear it first hand.
Thanks for your objective post. The 'truth' is the ONLY church I have EVER attended where money was not AN ISSUE. It was a real let down for me [at one point in my life] when I tried other churches to find out they preach money and giving A LOT. In the 'truth' they are more concerned with SALVATION.........to their credit............
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Post by What did Jesus do on Nov 21, 2005 12:50:13 GMT -5
This money thing is a touchy subject. I hesitate to fault anyone here. It's scriptural to give. We've been to two churches lately where the pastors were trying their best to make the congregation feel guilty for not giving enough. The context both times was the same. "If you give enough, even if you can't afford it, God will bless you." THAT line of thinking is NOT scriptural. I've never heard anything like that come from a worker or one of the friends, to their credit. I think maybe some of these churches have fallen into a dangerous trap without really thinking it through. It's kind of depressing to hear it first hand.
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Post by Jesus did this on Nov 21, 2005 13:01:55 GMT -5
And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
And the blind and the lame came to him in the temple; and he healed them.
IN THE TEMPLE
IN THE TEMPLE
Not in the living room of a house.
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Post by gregleeinnd on Nov 21, 2005 13:12:00 GMT -5
Let us not forget that Joseph and Mary received great fortunes upon the birth of Jesus.
That being said, many churches could learn some economics. I think some churches are like some cities where the higher ups want certain things and expect all other (especially those below them in income) to pay for them - in tithes for churches and in property taxes for cities.
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