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kavanaugh
Oct 24, 2018 12:24:34 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Oct 24, 2018 12:24:34 GMT -5
At one time these 'women' (usually in the 12-14 year range) were children and did he things children do. Climb, run, ride animals, penetrative masturbation, being born without a hymen, being struck in the vaginal area, etc. The list is long @wally . apparently not from matisses link...go read it and the references... Have you looked at the details of the referenced study you are so eager to quote? How many girls/women participated? Did the researchers consider variations in hymen shape, thickness, and elasticity among study participants in their analysis of the results? Did they have a large enough group to even begin to look at these potentially significant factors in any meaningful way? Maybe they were thorough in their approach. Maybe they weren't. I would wager that you have no clue at this posting. Regardless, the researchers found "no correlation" in the data they collected using a particular group of female participants. This result in no way rules out the considered physical activities as potential causes of permanent structural changes in a human hymen. Do you understand this?
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kavanaugh
Oct 24, 2018 12:29:43 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Oct 24, 2018 12:29:43 GMT -5
Yup. The results of studies are mixed, which is why the article states "although the true prevalence of trauma as a result of these activities is unclear.[6][28][29.]" You simply cherry picked the "result" you liked. I read the link. It supports the validity of statements I made earlier in the thread. There is no "if". Neither approach gives an adequate test of virginity. you either own the whole article and its references you posted or you don't...i suspect the latter ... You remain stuck in black and white, all/none thinking. The conclusion I drew did not require the quoted study to be beyond question. I never disagreed with you on that point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 13:37:33 GMT -5
apparently not from matisses link...go read it and the references... Have you looked at the details of the referenced study you are so eager to quote? How many girls/women participated? Did the researchers consider variations in hymen shape, thickness, and elasticity among study participants in their analysis of the results? Did they have a large enough group to even begin to look at these potentially significant factors in any meaningful way? Maybe they were thorough in their approach. Maybe they weren't. I would wager that you have no clue at this posting. Regardless, the researchers found "no correlation" in the data they collected using a particular group of female participants. This result in no way rules out the considered physical activities as potential causes of permanent structural changes in a human hymen. Do you understand this? its your link/article own it...if your gonna cast doubt on your own link/article i'm thinking that says more about you than anyone else...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 13:40:27 GMT -5
you either own the whole article and its references you posted or you don't...i suspect the latter ... You remain stuck in black and white, all/none thinking. The conclusion I drew did not require the quoted study to be beyond question. if you said that in a court of law your case would get thrown out and shredded...but way to spin it nonetheless...
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kavanaugh
Oct 24, 2018 13:43:42 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Oct 24, 2018 13:43:42 GMT -5
Have you looked at the details of the referenced study you are so eager to quote? How many girls/women participated? Did the researchers consider variations in hymen shape, thickness, and elasticity among study participants in their analysis of the results? Did they have a large enough group to even begin to look at these potentially significant factors in any meaningful way? Maybe they were thorough in their approach. Maybe they weren't. I would wager that you have no clue at this posting. Regardless, the researchers found "no correlation" in the data they collected using a particular group of female participants. This result in no way rules out the considered physical activities as potential causes of permanent structural changes in a human hymen. Do you understand this? its your link/article own it...if your gonna cast doubt on your own link/article i'm thinking that says more about you than anyone else... Your comment reveals how little you know about science.
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Post by matisse on Oct 24, 2018 13:47:59 GMT -5
You remain stuck in black and white, all/none thinking. The conclusion I drew did not require the quoted study to be beyond question. if you said that in a court of law your case would get thrown out and shredded...but way to spin it nonetheless... My conclusion was that the examination of the hymen is an unreliable indicator of whether or not a girl or woman is a virgin. Do you continue to think otherwise?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 13:54:23 GMT -5
if you said that in a court of law your case would get thrown out and shredded...but way to spin it nonetheless... My conclusion was that the examination of the hymen is an unreliable indicator of whether or not a girl or woman is a virgin. Do you continue to think otherwise? yes, you have'nt with your own confused link convinced me of anything concerning your view point....in fact i was giving you the benefit of the doubt on classic excuses for not showing signs of virginity but your link and reference erased that myth....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2018 13:55:24 GMT -5
its your link/article own it...if your gonna cast doubt on your own link/article i'm thinking that says more about you than anyone else... Your comment reveals how little you know about science. yeah right, i think you are more then a TAD confused by your own link...good luck with that....
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Post by snow on Oct 24, 2018 16:29:28 GMT -5
Yup. The results of studies are mixed, which is why the article states "although the true prevalence of trauma as a result of these activities is unclear.[6][28][29.]" You simply cherry picked the "result" you liked. I read the link. It supports the validity of statements I made earlier in the thread. There is no "if". Neither approach gives an adequate test of virginity. you either own the whole article and its references you posted or you don't...i suspect the latter ... so then your finally in agreement with me, snows raping them to find out wouldn't have worked either....good to know... No of course it wouldn't work. It has never been an accurate indication of virginity. But the point is this. That is what THEY thought indicated a woman was a virgin. Since they were in the middle of deciding who would die and who would live, rape would be the way to determine who lived and who died. Of course it wasn't accurate, but it's what they believed to be a test for virginity. Why else were women sent back to their father's if there was no blood in the marital bed if they didn't believe that was how you could tell whether a woman was a virgin or not.
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Post by ellie on Oct 25, 2018 0:42:56 GMT -5
My conclusion was that the examination of the hymen is an unreliable indicator of whether or not a girl or woman is a virgin. Do you continue to think otherwise? yes, you have'nt with your own confused link convinced me of anything concerning your view point....in fact i was giving you the benefit of the doubt on classic excuses for not showing signs of virginity but your link and reference erased that myth.... Obviously you've never had a hymen. The hole widens gradually with age regardless of what activities a person does. Also, post puberty, under the influence of estrogen. It becomes more elastic, so penile penetration can occur without any tearing. An intact hymen doesn't indicate a person is a virgin.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 1:48:56 GMT -5
yes, you have'nt with your own confused link convinced me of anything concerning your view point....in fact i was giving you the benefit of the doubt on classic excuses for not showing signs of virginity but your link and reference erased that myth.... Obviously you've never had a hymen. The hole widens gradually with age regardless of what activities a person does. Also, post puberty, under the influence of estrogen. It becomes more elastic, so penile penetration can occur without any tearing. An intact hymen doesn't indicate a person is a virgin. gotta go with matisses link and references...at least for modern women that is...the myth is busted... if perchance someone wasn't a virgin and really didn't show the signs then they would have gotten lucky and survived the encounter is all i have to say, thats a big if though... as to the hole widening on its own with age i'll have to think about that and do some research(if there is any available)before i'd believe that...
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Post by ellie on Oct 25, 2018 4:06:32 GMT -5
Obviously you've never had a hymen. The hole widens gradually with age regardless of what activities a person does. Also, post puberty, under the influence of estrogen. It becomes more elastic, so penile penetration can occur without any tearing. An intact hymen doesn't indicate a person is a virgin. if perchance someone wasn't a virgin and really didn't show the signs then they would have gotten lucky and survived the encounter is all i have to say, thats a big if though... It's nothing to do with luck. Assuming adequate levels of arousal and lubrication it's normal to have an intact hymen after intercourse. In this study of 13-19 year olds: Subjects who admitted past intercourse still had nondisrupted, intact hymens in 52% of cases.That's half with intact hymens @wally!! www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/14993089/Here's a start Past neonatal stage, the diameter of the hymenal opening (measured within the hymenal ring) widens by approximately 1 mm for each year of age.[14] During puberty, estrogen causes the hymen become very elastic and fimbriated.[4][5]en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymen
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 25, 2018 4:49:35 GMT -5
Now, does all of the fascinating information still uphold your view about virginity, wally?
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kavanaugh
Oct 25, 2018 8:07:37 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Oct 25, 2018 8:07:37 GMT -5
Are you contending that from an evolutionary standpoint that the women were not as evolved? The hymen is hardly a modern term since the tearing of the hymen was (incorrectly) used to 'prove' virginity. I am guessing that the prudent bride of yesteryear went to the marriage bed for the first time with a vial of blood. Perhaps you could offer an explanation of how the women of 5,000 years ago differed anatomically from women today? they were not in anyway involved with the activities of the women of today to damage or alter their bodies as happens now...but i do stand corrected that maybe the excuses we've heard are not all that valid for the women of today per matisses link... The more recent citation (28) of that trio of citations in "matisses link" "tears a new one" in your favorite citation (29), for using a questionable statistical convention to declare a trend stastically insignificant, and using it to draw misleading conclusions. The point of that group of 3 citations is to illustrate that there is ongoing disagreement among experts. You blundered in and 'cherry picked' the citation that confirms your bias.
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kavanaugh
Oct 25, 2018 8:23:55 GMT -5
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Post by matisse on Oct 25, 2018 8:23:55 GMT -5
Obviously you've never had a hymen. The hole widens gradually with age regardless of what activities a person does. Also, post puberty, under the influence of estrogen. It becomes more elastic, so penile penetration can occur without any tearing. An intact hymen doesn't indicate a person is a virgin. [gotta go with matisses link and references...at least for modern women that is...the myth is busted... if perchance someone wasn't a virgin and really didn't show the signs then they would have gotten lucky and survived the encounter is all i have to say, thats a big if though... as to the hole widening on its own with age i'll have to think about that and do some research(if there is any available)before i'd believe that... You cherry picked one citation from a group of citations chosen to illustrate disagreements among experts. One of the other citations warns against using your favorite as a standard because of questionable use of statistical methods to declare trends statistically insignificant that other researchers would argue ARE statistically significant. You are engaging in something known as "confirmation bias"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2018 12:16:32 GMT -5
Now, does all of the fascinating information still uphold your view about virginity, wally? unmoved....
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 25, 2018 17:24:52 GMT -5
Now, does all of the fascinating information still uphold your view about virginity, wally? unmoved.... Why am I NOT surprised?!
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2018 17:57:08 GMT -5
Why am I NOT surprised?! It has been noted that bleeding during coitarche can usually be attributed to nonsensual, poorly lubricated, piston-like intercourse; and it can happen repeatedly. The origin of the discussion was that the means of determining virginity was as unclear when god ordered all of the non-virgins to be killed as it is today. So far nothing has been brought up to show that there is any difference. Except for the ability to get a hymenoplasty to prove 'virginity' the whole idea is still as as silly as it ever was. It does not take into account the number of women in whom the hymen does not form. Or those who do not suffer any damage even when having coitus for the first time. God, who should have known these things, seemingly had no problem allowing women to be killed because of a poor design rather than through any fault of their own.
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Post by Lee on Oct 25, 2018 20:37:32 GMT -5
Which proves that any time you perceive God by the filter of mankind, you perceive God by the filter of mankind. Which includes yourself.
Christianity says there's a dude we can all relate to.
If so, we all have something in common, if only a nature, the nature of the human being.
And so established, we gather our truths.
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2018 23:59:06 GMT -5
Which proves that any time you perceive God by the filter of mankind, you perceive God by the filter of mankind. Which includes yourself. Christianity says there's a dude we can all relate to. If so, we all have something in common, if only a nature, the nature of the human being. And so established, we gather our truths. God is not seen through he filter of mankind. God is the creation of mankind. Believers all do have something in common - their created god.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 26, 2018 0:12:17 GMT -5
My conclusion was that the examination of the hymen is an unreliable indicator of whether or not a girl or woman is a virgin. Do you continue to think otherwise? yes, you have'nt with your own confused link convinced me of anything concerning your view point....in fact i was giving you the benefit of the doubt on classic excuses for not showing signs of virginity but your link and reference erased that myth.... Wally … what kind of expertise do you have on hymens to know ANYTHING for sure about them?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 26, 2018 0:15:59 GMT -5
Obviously you've never had a hymen. The hole widens gradually with age regardless of what activities a person does. Also, post puberty, under the influence of estrogen. It becomes more elastic, so penile penetration can occur without any tearing. An intact hymen doesn't indicate a person is a virgin. gotta go with matisses link and references...at least for modern women that is...the myth is busted... if perchance someone wasn't a virgin and really didn't show the signs then they would have gotten lucky and survived the encounter is all i have to say, thats a big if though... as to the hole widening on its own with age i'll have to think about that and do some research(if there is any available)before i'd believe that... Everything widens with age, Wally. How far apart have your ears become?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 0:18:52 GMT -5
yes, you have'nt with your own confused link convinced me of anything concerning your view point....in fact i was giving you the benefit of the doubt on classic excuses for not showing signs of virginity but your link and reference erased that myth.... Wally … what kind of expertise do you have on hymens to know ANYTHING for sure about them? does anyone here have a degree in hymens?
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 26, 2018 0:23:15 GMT -5
Wally … what kind of expertise do you have on hymens to know ANYTHING for sure about them? does anyone here have a degree in hymens? Is it that important to you? Most guys outgrow that curiosity before they get out of high school.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2018 0:26:16 GMT -5
does anyone here have a degree in hymens? Is it that important to you? Most guys outgrow that curiosity before they get out of high school. yeah right, most men are horndogs for life....even if they are christians....
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Post by on Oct 26, 2018 0:39:00 GMT -5
Historically, it was believed that first sexual intercourse was necessarily traumatic to the hymen and always resulted in the hymen being "broken" or torn, causing bleeding. However, research on women in Western populations has found that bleeding during first consensual intercourse does not always happen or is less common than not bleeding. In one cross-cultural study, slightly more than half of all women self-reported bleeding during first intercourse, with significantly different levels of pain and bleeding reported depending on their region of origin.
In several studies of adolescent female rape victims, where patients were examined at a hospital following sexual assault, half or fewer of virgin victims had any injury to the hymen. Tears of the hymen occurred in less than a quarter of cases. However, virgins were significantly more likely to have injuries to the hymen than non-virgins.
In a study of adolescents who had previously had consensual sex, approximately half showed evidence of trauma to the hymen. Trauma to the hymen may also occur in adult non-virgins following consensual sex, although it is rare.[26] Trauma to the hymen may heal without any visible sign of injury. An observational study of adolescent sexual assault victims found that majority of wounds to the hymen healed without any visible sign of injury having occurred.
Trauma to the hymen is hypothesized to occur as a result of various other behaviors, such as tampon or menstrual cup use, pelvic examinations with a speculum, masturbation, gymnastics, or horseback riding, although the true prevalence of trauma as a result of these activities is unclear.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 26, 2018 0:44:32 GMT -5
Is it that important to you? Most guys outgrow that curiosity before they get out of high school. yeah right, most men are horndogs for life....even if they are christians.... You're hilarious.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 26, 2018 1:02:00 GMT -5
Is it that important to you? Most guys outgrow that curiosity before they get out of high school. yeah right, most men are horndogs for life....even if they are christians.... Is your opinion coming from your own personal experience, wally?
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