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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2018 16:30:49 GMT -5
You are exactly right 'with love' in your post above your last one. We know what we heard. This way was started by Jesus and had never died out. All other churches broke away from us, the true church. We were a continuation of the true church. Unless you were in the know from the so called early days we never knew how far workers lists went back until the Internet. Easy to say they didn't start printing them until early 1900s.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 8, 2018 0:07:10 GMT -5
Growing up I heard that same thing-from the shores... I always just thought they were referring to the way they worshiped and what they believed- that from the beginning. Really ,how could it logically have meant anything else. There were no workers lists, no history recorded. Did you all think that somewhere locked away there was a record of 'professing folks back to the apostles?? I was so suprise and amused when peopke suddenly started announcing that they'd been lied to. Actually they should have just been plain embarrassed that they hadn't thought about it themselves long before them. Being deceived wasn't the problem -been dumb was! Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
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Post by Grant on Apr 8, 2018 3:22:47 GMT -5
Janj, sounds like a worker talking.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 8, 2018 4:45:41 GMT -5
Janj, sounds like a worker talking. Yep, he sure does.
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 8, 2018 5:13:01 GMT -5
Growing up I heard that same thing-from the shores... I always just thought they were referring to the way they worshiped and what they believed- that from the beginning. Really ,how could it logically have meant anything else. There were no workers lists, no history recorded. Did you all think that somewhere locked away there was a record of 'professing folks back to the apostles?? I was so suprise and amused when peopke suddenly started announcing that they'd been lied to. Actually they should have just been plain embarrassed that they hadn't thought about it themselves long before them. Being deceived wasn't the problem -been dumb was! Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 8, 2018 6:19:02 GMT -5
Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
It is very interesting that the minute someone doesn't agree with a criticism of the 2x2's they are professing and then not only professing but a worker. 😁 Are we not allowed to make an unbiased observation I was just pointing out that people certainly didn't think things through at all when they heard the 'from the shores' messages- maybe like you d. good they made incorrect assumptions from what they heard.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 8, 2018 17:10:47 GMT -5
It is very interesting that the minute someone doesn't agree with a criticism of the 2x2's they are professing and then not only professing but a worker. 😁 Are we not allowed to make an unbiased observation I was just pointing out that people certainly didn't think things through at all when they heard the 'from the shores' messages- maybe like you d. good they made incorrect assumptions from what they heard. Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 8, 2018 20:05:32 GMT -5
It is very interesting that the minute someone doesn't agree with a criticism of the 2x2's they are professing and then not only professing but a worker. 😁 Are we not allowed to make an unbiased observation I was just pointing out that people certainly didn't think things through at all when they heard the 'from the shores' messages- maybe like you d. good they made incorrect assumptions from what they heard. Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 8, 2018 22:18:34 GMT -5
Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad. Entitled to opinion? It's NOT your "opinion!"
It is not an "opinion", when you rewrite the history of the *TRUTH,* -as we unwittingly called it in my day because we were led to believe it was TRUE!
There is nothing of your "opinion" about it when you deny what happened and then blame the victim for being deceived.
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Post by withlove on Apr 8, 2018 22:45:14 GMT -5
I was just pointing out that people certainly didn't think things through at all when they heard the 'from the shores' messages- maybe like you d. good they made incorrect assumptions from what they heard. Someone started saying what we heard. Who? Just one person or a few who was confused? Did he wait until all the people who had the story straight had died? All of them? And incredibly quickly sent a new message to most of the professing babies? If you think that it all was just a misunderstanding and no lies were told... ...why haven't the workers explained it? Why do they choose to let people continue to believe the "we were original" story? Why do they let people die never having heard the real story? If there was no dishonesty, it should be extra-easy to discuss. So why keep silent? Do you think the workers feel as you, that the flock is just dumb? And maybe the real history is impossible to understand? What is the motive of letting the friends (and workers, let's be honest) believe a simple misunderstanding? You are totally blaming the victim. Whether someone is dumb or deceived, it's definitely not funny. Do you think the shepherds should keep truth from the sheep?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 1:25:51 GMT -5
I was just pointing out that people certainly didn't think things through at all when they heard the 'from the shores' messages- maybe like you d. good they made incorrect assumptions from what they heard. Someone started saying what we heard. Who? Just one person or a few who was confused? Did he wait until all the people who had the story straight had died? All of them? And incredibly quickly sent a new message to most of the professing babies? If you think that it all was just a misunderstanding and no lies were told... ...why haven't the workers explained it? Why do they choose to let people continue to believe the "we were original" story? Why do they let people die never having heard the real story? If there was no dishonesty, it should be extra-easy to discuss. So why keep silent? Do you think the workers feel as you, that the flock is just dumb? And maybe the real history is impossible to understand? What is the motive of letting the friends (and workers, let's be honest) believe a simple misunderstanding? You are totally blaming the victim. Whether someone is dumb or deceived, it's definitely not funny. Do you think the shepherds should keep truth from the sheep? FWIW the workers never told me that we went back to christ it was my own family that told me that but never a worker....just last year we had supper with TL who i believe is a worker from iowa say something to the effect that "we can't trace it back 2000 years" he said it so fast that it didn't hit me till we were ready to leave...
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Post by withlove on Apr 9, 2018 1:35:43 GMT -5
Someone started saying what we heard. Who? Just one person or a few who was confused? Did he wait until all the people who had the story straight had died? All of them? And incredibly quickly sent a new message to most of the professing babies? If you think that it all was just a misunderstanding and no lies were told... ...why haven't the workers explained it? Why do they choose to let people continue to believe the "we were original" story? Why do they let people die never having heard the real story? If there was no dishonesty, it should be extra-easy to discuss. So why keep silent? Do you think the workers feel as you, that the flock is just dumb? And maybe the real history is impossible to understand? What is the motive of letting the friends (and workers, let's be honest) believe a simple misunderstanding? You are totally blaming the victim. Whether someone is dumb or deceived, it's definitely not funny. Do you think the shepherds should keep truth from the sheep? FWIW the workers never told me that we went back to christ it was my own family that told me that but never a worker....just last year we had supper with TL who i believe is a worker from iowa say something to the effect that "we can't trace it back 2000 years" he said it so fast that it didn't hit me till we were ready to leave... That's awesome to hear, Wally. Kudos to that man. I'd like to see it said to everyone.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 1:51:15 GMT -5
Not sure if this is where I should post this. I grew up in, well I was born in Newfoundland, moved to Quebec Canada when I was 11. I am b&r but questioning alot lately. Realizing that the F&W leave out verses, pick and choose verses and PART of verses to meet the conformity of the 2x2's There where several families that left meetings in Quebec when I was growing up it would have been 1998-2000 I believe. As kids we were just told they got "offended" but I want to know the real reason. I was VERY close to one of the families sons. One min they were there the next they were gone. It has left be boggled to this very day. That families last name is Mason. The others I can't quite remember. Anyways ibwas wondering if anyone on here has any info Thank you! Growing up I heard that same thing-from the shores... I always just thought they were referring to the way they worshiped and what they believed- that from the beginning. Really ,how could it logically have meant anything else. There were no workers lists, no history recorded. Did you all think that somewhere locked away there was a record of 'professing folks back to the apostles?? I was so suprise and amused when peopke suddenly started announcing that they'd been lied to. Actually they should have just been plain embarrassed that they hadn't thought about it themselves long before them. Being deceived wasn't the problem -been dumb was! How could it logically mean anything else? Well may I suggest to you that the preaching of the message (and I’m quoting directly from gospel meetings here) ‘This is the only church not started by a man. Any church started my a man is a false church’ does not refer to a way of worship nor does it refer to a belief but rather does in fact refer to a church (the clue is the use of the word ‘church’). If you want to apply a test of logic then it is the most logical thing in the world to interpret claims that ‘this church was not started by a man’ as in fact a claim that the 2x2 church wasn’t started by a man. If you think that claiming that your church or your religious sect wasnt started by a man, when the evidence clearly shows that it was, is not a lie or an untruth or an attempt to deceive then it calls into question your understanding of these terms. Calling other people dumb because they don’t share your misunderstanding is, quite frankly, absurd. Matt10
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 9, 2018 4:15:56 GMT -5
Someone started saying what we heard. Who? Just one person or a few who was confused? Did he wait until all the people who had the story straight had died? All of them? And incredibly quickly sent a new message to most of the professing babies? If you think that it all was just a misunderstanding and no lies were told... ...why haven't the workers explained it? Why do they choose to let people continue to believe the "we were original" story? Why do they let people die never having heard the real story? If there was no dishonesty, it should be extra-easy to discuss. So why keep silent? Do you think the workers feel as you, that the flock is just dumb? And maybe the real history is impossible to understand? What is the motive of letting the friends (and workers, let's be honest) believe a simple misunderstanding? You are totally blaming the victim. Whether someone is dumb or deceived, it's definitely not funny. Do you think the shepherds should keep truth from the sheep? FWIW the workers never told me that we went back to christ it was my own family that told me that but never a worker....just last year we had supper with TL who i believe is a worker from iowa say something to the effect that "we can't trace it back 2000 years" he said it so fast that it didn't hit me till we were ready to leave... Just LAST year he said it?
Would he have said the same 10 years ago? twenty years ago?
I very much doubt that he would have done so then. But now, -with their backs against the wall, and they can no longer deny it -they are having to acknowledge it.
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Post by Grant on Apr 9, 2018 5:40:00 GMT -5
Did you ever hear it preached janj that we are the true church and other churches being referred to as false? Ministers were called hirelings and so on. Did you not hear these things preached?
Did you ever hear those in meetings refer to your church as the Truth?
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Post by Grant on Apr 9, 2018 5:47:09 GMT -5
Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad. Janj does have a familiar ring about it.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 11:58:47 GMT -5
FWIW the workers never told me that we went back to christ it was my own family that told me that but never a worker....just last year we had supper with TL who i believe is a worker from iowa say something to the effect that "we can't trace it back 2000 years" he said it so fast that it didn't hit me till we were ready to leave... Just LAST year he said it?
Would he have said the same 10 years ago? twenty years ago?
I very much doubt that he would have done so then. But now, -with their backs against the wall, and they can no longer deny it -they are having to acknowledge it.don't know if it something new being done or not...
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Post by withlove on Apr 9, 2018 22:31:56 GMT -5
Someone started saying what we heard. Who? Just one person or a few who was confused? Did he wait until all the people who had the story straight had died? All of them? And incredibly quickly sent a new message to most of the professing babies? If you think that it all was just a misunderstanding and no lies were told... ...why haven't the workers explained it? Why do they choose to let people continue to believe the "we were original" story? Why do they let people die never having heard the real story? If there was no dishonesty, it should be extra-easy to discuss. So why keep silent? Do you think the workers feel as you, that the flock is just dumb? And maybe the real history is impossible to understand? What is the motive of letting the friends (and workers, let's be honest) believe a simple misunderstanding? You are totally blaming the victim. Whether someone is dumb or deceived, it's definitely not funny. Do you think the shepherds should keep truth from the sheep? FWIW the workers never told me that we went back to christ it was my own family that told me that but never a worker....just last year we had supper with TL who i believe is a worker from iowa say something to the effect that "we can't trace it back 2000 years" he said it so fast that it didn't hit me till we were ready to leave... Thinking over it, "we can't trace it back 2000 years" is not nearly enough. Some of the messages we heard conceded that we didn't have paper evidence but that did not change the point that we were the first and the only. Maybe in this case, though, he was making an honest attempt.
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 10, 2018 3:15:58 GMT -5
Did you ever hear it preached janj that we are the true church and other churches being referred to as false? Ministers were called hirelings and so on. Did you not hear these things preached? Did you ever hear those in meetings refer to your church as the Truth? Yes I heard that many times.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 5:48:12 GMT -5
Did you ever hear it preached janj that we are the true church and other churches being referred to as false? Ministers were called hirelings and so on. Did you not hear these things preached? Did you ever hear those in meetings refer to your church as the Truth? Yes I heard that many times. This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 10, 2018 12:49:22 GMT -5
Yes I heard that many times. This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10 Why do you 'presume' that? No I dont belive that claim but the second option is the answer many would give you if asked why they are the true church.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 10, 2018 13:47:40 GMT -5
This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10 Why do you 'presume' that? No I dont belive that claim but the second option is the answer many would give you if asked why they are the true church. Janj, -why do you think that our parents and grandparents were "dumb" when they didn't figure out that what the workers claimed to be true, -that 2x2 church was an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee, - wasn't really true?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 10, 2018 15:27:02 GMT -5
Just LAST year he said it?
Would he have said the same 10 years ago? twenty years ago?
I very much doubt that he would have done so then. But now, -with their backs against the wall, and they can no longer deny it -they are having to acknowledge it. don't know if it something new being done or not... Of course it is new!
It is at least "new" since the cat is out of the bag and no one can deny any longer that they didn't really go all the way back to the "shores of Gallalee," -they have to start trying rationalize their claim some how.
But claiming that those poor people were just too "dumb" to figure it out is as low down mean as their deception!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 17:40:27 GMT -5
This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10 Why do you 'presume' that? No I dont belive that claim but the second option is the answer many would give you if asked why they are the true church. The reason I presumed it is because I reckoned that if a church that claimed to be the only true church preached something that I didn’t believe to be true and I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they preached the same thing that I didn’t believe to be true again, I wouldnt go back again a third time. Why anyone would return again and again to the point where they heard the same untruth preached many times is something that I really struggle to grasp. If you didn’t believe what they were preaching why on earth did you continue to make the effort to go listen to the same untruth over and over again? Would you not have preferred to go to a church that preached truth rather than untruths? Matt10
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Post by withlove on Apr 10, 2018 18:49:11 GMT -5
Why do you 'presume' that? No I dont belive that claim but the second option is the answer many would give you if asked why they are the true church. The reason I presumed it is because I reckoned that if a church that claimed to be the only true church preached something that I didn’t believe to be true and I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they preached the same thing that I didn’t believe to be true again, I wouldnt go back again a third time. Why anyone would return again and again to the point where they heard the same untruth preached many times is something that I really struggle to grasp. If you didn’t believe what they were preaching why on earth did you continue to make the effort to go listen to the same untruth over and over again? Would you not have preferred to go to a church that preached truth rather than untruths? Matt10 There are some who don't want to leave their meeting because they enjoy the fellowship and the people they are close to. I kept going for years myself. Some feel that it is still the chosen people, even though it has gotten off track and there are some bad apples in the leadership. The problem with this thinking is that this is not a group of Jewish people. And this church is not some special section of gentiles who have sole ownership of salvation. This is not the old testament and you do not have to stay in the tribe even though a high priest is corrupt. There are other Christian groups where you can have fellowship. Believe it or not.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2018 0:35:10 GMT -5
Thank you janj! About being "lied to." I think it is plain from posts here on TMB that "back when" many people knew the origins. There is a letter by George Walker that says a group of men came together and searched the Bible according to what Jesus and his apostles taught IMO, that would be how it came from the shores... and what Jesus brought was planned "before The world began." (1 Peter 1:20 God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake.) Emy, As you were growing up in the "TRUTH," -did your parents know any of the history of the 2x2's that has just been learned in the last decade or so??
You say '"back when" many people knew the origins." Did your parents know that history? Did you?
Most people that I know DID NOT know that history! ( I did, but that is another story, -my two brothers didn't know) They believed what the workers told them, that it actually had continued all the way back to Jesus time.
Far more believed it than those who knew differently. And those that did knew differently knew better than to say anything.
Otherwise why would so many people have been upset when they first found out? -Like my own brother and his wife? They simply would not believe it for a long time.
Also, if everyone already knew the truth about the history; why did the the workers try to keep a lid on it when the news began to come out by telling people not to read the books, -to burn them, -
What would they have been afraid of?
People in the "TRUTH" had been deceived, lied to; -whatever you want to call it -no matter how many are now trying "white wash" and rewrite the past!
As Snow has said, "Lies can be told by omission too."
As I have said before, for those people who want to continue in the fellowship, - that is fine! It is their life and their right to live it as they wish .
What I find downright reprehensible is when those same people say that it wasn't the workers fault, that they hadn't been deceptive but it was the people's own fault for not understanding differently!
We even knew young workers go into the work not knowing and being very upset when they did find out!
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2018 12:31:57 GMT -5
Bottom line is this. They may not have started out to deceive, but at some point it became just that. I know my parents believed that it started 2000 years ago and they were some of the first to profess. My grandfather professed in 1915, very early on and had workers stay on his ranch for a year. So if there was ever a time for them to inform him of their origins you'd think that might have happened then? Yet he never believed it was anything but 2000 years old. Why is that? Back then there was no way of checking the authenticity of their statements. They came to the new country telling that tale so how would my grandfather been able to check if there was an unbroken line of worker back to Jesus time? He couldn't. So even if it was just letting people believe that and not correcting them, that is still a lie. By omission. I never told my parents when I found out because I wasn't sure if it would devastate them or not. They were in their late 80's, early 90's by the time I found out. So I just let them believe what they had told me and what we heard from the workers in meetings. That we were the only true church because we weren't started by man and that we went all the way back to the shores of Galilee. If the workers never said that I wonder how so many people here say exactly those same words, yet we come from many parts of the world. To say that people were dumb to believe that, I disagree. Yes they never questioned and wanted to believe the workers, but they also didn't have a way of verifying the truth of it back in 1915. So that's not dumb, that's called having trust. My grandfather was not a stupid man. He spoke 7 languages and he invented many things. When we were going through my parents things when they went into the nursing home we found all sorts of things he had built in the way of tools to do the job. Things that are now on the market, he built because he needed that tool. He helped my uncle build one of the first planes that were flown in Canada, and the blueprints for the plane are in the National Archives. So was he stupid or just trusted the words of 2 men that came to his area? They talk a good talk and I think that's what made a lot of people want to believe their claim that they were the only true church. Not many people can turn away from something that makes them feel 'special or be right when everyone else is wrong. Salvation is a tricky thing and it's something people feel a great need to get 'right'.
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Post by emy on Apr 11, 2018 13:35:26 GMT -5
Emy, As you were growing up in the "TRUTH," -did your parents know any of the history of the 2x2's that has just been learned in the last decade or so??
You say '"back when" many people knew the origins." Did your parents know that history? Did you?
Most people that I know DID NOT know that history! ( I did, but that is another story, -my two brothers didn't know) They believed what the workers told them, that it actually had continued all the way back to Jesus time.
Far more believed it than those who knew differently. And those that did knew differently knew better than to say anything.
Otherwise why would so many people have been upset when they first found out? -Like my own brother and his wife? They simply would not believe it for a long time.
Also, if everyone already knew the truth about the history; why did the the workers try to keep a lid on it when the news began to come out by telling people not to read the books, -to burn them, -
What would they have been afraid of?
People in the "TRUTH" had been deceived, lied to; -whatever you want to call it -no matter how many are now trying "white wash" and rewrite the past!
As Snow has said, "Lies can be told by omission too."
As I have said before, for those people who want to continue in the fellowship, - that is fine! It is their life and their right to live it as they wish .
What I find downright reprehensible is when those same people say that it wasn't the workers fault, that they hadn't been deceptive but it was the people's own fault for not understanding differently!
We even knew young workers go into the work not knowing and being very upset when they did find out!
I don't know if my parents, or grandparents, knew. My guess would be that they did not. But neither did they think workers were infallible, or put them on a pedestal, or expect them to solve any life problems that came up. They did have a lot of respect for them, as the Bible encourages. They saw some of the ones they first knew leave the work, and at least one left the meetings. My parents gave me (us) good guidelines, but I don't remember them being unbendable rules. They were our "schoolmasters to bring us to Christ." As far as lies, I think anyone who asked "back when" were probably told or got an explanation. I'm sure some people assumed a line could be traced back to Jesus, especially in later years, and may have even said so to others, but that would have been ignorance, not lying. I'll give you that there could have been deception by omission, but I don't think it had any malicious intent. I knew a few of those earliest workers, though slightly, but they were not arrogant or proud men or women. For myself, I was a long while getting beyond the "schoolmaster," in spite of never leaving meetings. I did pick up help for myself here and there, but unfortunately, it was way past time when I should have had more understanding before I actively sought it. Fortunately, I was "preserved" until that time. I don't believe that there was any group effort to conceal anything about the beginning. The human involvement just wasn't important. What mattered was guidance from the Holy Spirit, and it is still so. If some became proud and thought their own thinking was best, the godly Spirit resisted them, (as Peter said would be). There was no big announcement made when those decided to go a different way, just as there is no big announcement made today when some take a different way. It no doubt brought grief to their hearts, as it brings grief to ours. The greatest source of power at such times is prayer. To me, it just isn't important what has gone before. It's whether what I know and have been taught is consistent to what I can read in the Bible. Some customs/traditions may have only a tenuous connection, and probably those things are not required for salvation. Salvation comes from the "seed" of faith. Some of the other things could be protection like the "husks." Protection and for a witness.
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