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Post by Grant on Apr 11, 2018 13:46:22 GMT -5
Plenty was said emy. Not just by omission. We are the true church, everyone is a break away from us, we have always been there since Jesus day. It never died out, we have secretly met in homes like this throughout the centuries. We, we, we. All referring to the workers and their church. Everyone one else versus them the true and only original church.
Our ancestors certainly believed it and so did most of us until we found out that it was not the truth. Interesting from people who call their church the Truth.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2018 14:55:12 GMT -5
Emy, As you were growing up in the "TRUTH," -did your parents know any of the history of the 2x2's that has just been learned in the last decade or so??
You say '"back when" many people knew the origins." Did your parents know that history? Did you?
Most people that I know DID NOT know that history! ( I did, but that is another story, -my two brothers didn't know) They believed what the workers told them, that it actually had continued all the way back to Jesus time.
Far more believed it than those who knew differently. And those that did knew differently knew better than to say anything.
Otherwise why would so many people have been upset when they first found out? -Like my own brother and his wife? They simply would not believe it for a long time.
Also, if everyone already knew the truth about the history; why did the the workers try to keep a lid on it when the news began to come out by telling people not to read the books, -to burn them, -
What would they have been afraid of?
People in the "TRUTH" had been deceived, lied to; -whatever you want to call it -no matter how many are now trying "white wash" and rewrite the past!
As Snow has said, "Lies can be told by omission too."
As I have said before, for those people who want to continue in the fellowship, - that is fine! It is their life and their right to live it as they wish .
What I find downright reprehensible is when those same people say that it wasn't the workers fault, that they hadn't been deceptive but it was the people's own fault for not understanding differently!
We even knew young workers go into the work not knowing and being very upset when they did find out!
I don't know if my parents, or grandparents, knew. My guess would be that they did not. But neither did they think workers were infallible, or put them on a pedestal, or expect them to solve any life problems that came up. They did have a lot of respect for them, as the Bible encourages. They saw some of the ones they first knew leave the work, and at least one left the meetings. My parents gave me (us) good guidelines, but I don't remember them being unbendable rules. They were our "schoolmasters to bring us to Christ." As far as lies, I think anyone who asked "back when" were probably told or got an explanation. I'm sure some people assumed a line could be traced back to Jesus, especially in later years, and may have even said so to others, but that would have been ignorance, not lying. I'll give you that there could have been deception by omission, but I don't think it had any malicious intent. I knew a few of those earliest workers, though slightly, but they were not arrogant or proud men or women. For myself, I was a long while getting beyond the "schoolmaster," in spite of never leaving meetings. I did pick up help for myself here and there, but unfortunately, it was way past time when I should have had more understanding before I actively sought it. Fortunately, I was "preserved" until that time. I don't believe that there was any group effort to conceal anything about the beginning. The human involvement just wasn't important. What mattered was guidance from the Holy Spirit, and it is still so. If some became proud and thought their own thinking was best, the godly Spirit resisted them, (as Peter said would be). There was no big announcement made when those decided to go a different way, just as there is no big announcement made today when some take a different way. It no doubt brought grief to their hearts, as it brings grief to ours. The greatest source of power at such times is prayer. To me, it just isn't important what has gone before. It's whether what I know and have been taught is consistent to what I can read in the Bible. Some customs/traditions may have only a tenuous connection, and probably those things are not required for salvation. Salvation comes from the "seed" of faith. Some of the other things could be protection like the "husks." Protection and for a witness. This hasn't anything to do about the workers "being infallible," -it is about, -and only about, -what they told people about the beginning when the were preaching the gospel in the US and other countries in the early days.
People who would come to those meetings and hearing it for the first time would naturally ask where does this come from because it was something new to them.
Yes, - I sure people asked got an explanation.
But what kind of explanation!
The elephant in the room that those still in the fellowship don't want to acknowledge is the kind of "explanation" that they got!.
THAT would have been the time to tell them the truth about it beginning in Ireland and bit of the history! But instead, they made some kind of statement that led people to believe that it had gone all the way back to Jesus day!
Those people were left with the idea that it actually did go in a continuous line back to Jesus!
The question is WHY did they allow people to believe that? Because there definitely WAS some kind of "group effort to conceal the beginning."
No one is saying that it was "malicious intent." No one is saying that the workers were "arrogant or proud."
But the fact remains that the truth was NOT told .
(Remember my father and the father of your brother-in-law's were once in the work together.)
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Post by emy on Apr 11, 2018 15:24:29 GMT -5
Are you saying you knew because your father knew in early years? Are you thinking my BiL's father also knew?
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Post by snow on Apr 11, 2018 15:29:07 GMT -5
I would love to know why they kept it a secret and only a select few knew other than the ones that put the group together that is. What was the big deal if they had started a new version of church? It had a lot of very appealing features to it and could have stood on it's own without having to let people believe it was 2000 years old. That just made a lot of people leave when they did find out and there was no reason for it in the first place. Once people found out that they were lied to, either intentionally or unintentionally or even just by omission, then they couldn't be trusted after that. If they would not be honest about something like that, what else wasn't to be trusted. It was a breach of trust. It didn't matter when it started. What mattered was trust was breached and once that happens, the authenticity of all the rest of it comes into question.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2018 20:48:15 GMT -5
Are you saying you knew because your father knew in early years? Are you thinking my BiL's father also knew? I have no idea if your BIL's father knew.
I am sure that my father didn't know when he first professed and went into the work. I don't' know when or how my father found out.
I just knew from hearing my mother & father taking about it when I was quite young.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2018 0:55:37 GMT -5
I would love to know why they kept it a secret and only a select few knew other than the ones that put the group together that is. What was the big deal if they had started a new version of church? It had a lot of very appealing features to it and could have stood on it's own without having to let people believe it was 2000 years old. That just made a lot of people leave when they did find out and there was no reason for it in the first place. Once people found out that they were lied to, either intentionally or unintentionally or even just by omission, then they couldn't be trusted after that. If they would not be honest about something like that, what else wasn't to be trusted. It was a breach of trust. It didn't matter when it started. What mattered was trust was breached and once that happens, the authenticity of all the rest of it comes into question. Yes, Snow, I believe you are right. If the workers had just told the truth about when & where it started, I think people would have accepted it without a problem.
My thought has been that due to the fact that they excommunicated Irvin & Cooney and had that bit of scuffle at the time -that it was a bit hard to explain to people that the very founders had to be excommunicated.
Also that fact the workers had complete control over everything, there was no organization to be responsible to, - so they just let things like their history slide by until it was really to late.
It had become fixated in the minds of people & they let it continued to let it be. As you say it was a breach of trust and that is what upset people .
What angers me now is those that are left try to deny that such a deception never happened!
Guess I shouldn't be surprised, -after all, -religions are built on myths in order to have control & power to start with so how can you expect them to be honest when their backs are against the wall?
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 16, 2018 0:45:37 GMT -5
Why do you 'presume' that? No I dont belive that claim but the second option is the answer many would give you if asked why they are the true church. The reason I presumed it is because I reckoned that if a church that claimed to be the only true church preached something that I didn’t believe to be true and I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they preached the same thing that I didn’t believe to be true again, I wouldnt go back again a third time. Why anyone would return again and again to the point where they heard the same untruth preached many times is something that I really struggle to grasp. If you didn’t believe what they were preaching why on earth did you continue to make the effort to go listen to the same untruth over and over again? Would you not have preferred to go to a church that preached truth rather than untruths? Matt10 So a person is not allowed to be an an unbiased observer? I will defend anyone that I feel is been unfairly judged regardless of their belief. Has it ever occurred to you that the 2x2 people that go back time after time do so because they want to. Maybe they don't feel like they have been deceived or preached an untruth. Isn't the aim of every christian to be content in how and where they worship and be in the place they feel that God wants them to be. I'm sure that there are 000's of happy contented people in the 2x2 church that want nothing else than to continue there until the end of their life. You are trying so hard to tell them they have been lied to when I believe most of them don't feel that.
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janj
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Post by janj on Apr 16, 2018 0:58:31 GMT -5
Growing up I heard that same thing-from the shores... I always just thought they were referring to the way they worshiped and what they believed- that from the beginning. Really ,how could it logically have meant anything else. There were no workers lists, no history recorded. Did you all think that somewhere locked away there was a record of 'professing folks back to the apostles?? I was so suprise and amused when peopke suddenly started announcing that they'd been lied to. Actually they should have just been plain embarrassed that they hadn't thought about it themselves long before them. Being deceived wasn't the problem -been dumb was! Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
Yes my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing. They spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way. They were under no illusions as to when and how it started. You are quite happy to call people liars but when I call others dumb you get right off your bike. As I said to Matt 10 - I am an observer in all this, but I will defend anyone that I think is been unfairly slaughtered - whatever their belief, and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest. In your opinion the workers were liars, in my opinion those that thought it was an unbroken line of workers from the beginning didn't think things through. (There is nothing in history that can be traced with an unbroken line back 2000 years) No more to be said really.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 2:55:25 GMT -5
Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad. Just curious where you fit in Janj. I actually find your statements quite ignorant and arrogant but somethng tells me, I have encountered you before on this site.
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2018 14:11:24 GMT -5
Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
Yes my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing. They spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way. They were under no illusions as to when and how it started. You are quite happy to call people liars but when I call others dumb you get right off your bike. As I said to Matt 10 - I am an observer in all this, but I will defend anyone that I think is been unfairly slaughtered - whatever their belief, and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest. In your opinion the workers were liars, in my opinion those that thought it was an unbroken line of workers from the beginning didn't think things through. (There is nothing in history that can be traced with an unbroken line back 2000 years)No more to be said really. What I bolded above in your post, is exactly why many people believed their group WAS special. I agree, nothing can be tracked back in an unbroken line to the death of Jesus, though the RCC can come pretty close. It was that little bit of information that a lot of people really liked to believe, mostly because it was felt no other group could claim that. That should have been the red flag, but people do like to think they've found the only right way and tend to ignore the truth. If it sounds to good to be true, it's not likely true.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 15:41:04 GMT -5
The reason I presumed it is because I reckoned that if a church that claimed to be the only true church preached something that I didn’t believe to be true and I gave them the benefit of the doubt and they preached the same thing that I didn’t believe to be true again, I wouldnt go back again a third time. Why anyone would return again and again to the point where they heard the same untruth preached many times is something that I really struggle to grasp. If you didn’t believe what they were preaching why on earth did you continue to make the effort to go listen to the same untruth over and over again? Would you not have preferred to go to a church that preached truth rather than untruths? Matt10 So a person is not allowed to be an an unbiased observer? I will defend anyone that I feel is been unfairly judged regardless of their belief. Has it ever occurred to you that the 2x2 people that go back time after time do so because they want to. Maybe they don't feel like they have been deceived or preached an untruth. Isn't the aim of every christian to be content in how and where they worship and be in the place they feel that God wants them to be. I'm sure that there are 000's of happy contented people in the 2x2 church that want nothing else than to continue there until the end of their life. You are trying so hard to tell them they have been lied to when I believe most of them don't feel that. You questioned the basis for my presumption and I gave you it. Im not sure what your point about being an unbiased observer refers to. Many things have occurred to me about the 2x2 church and one of them is that not everyone who goes back time after time does so because they want to. Some do so because they believe that the 2x2 church is the Only Way to heaven and that to forsake it is a one way ticket to death and eternal damnation. And why do they believe that? Because they’ve been sold a religious deception from birth and at some stage in a moment of sheer foolhardiness bought it. It’s not a question of maybe. They have been deceived and they have been preached an untruth. And they believed it. I’ve already provided you with one real life example of this. I haven't a clue what the aim of every Christian is nor do I know how many happy and contented people there are in the 2x2 church. What I do know is that there are those who are unhappy and discontented. And if you are unhappy and discontented then there is a way out of the Only Way mindset. All you need to do is realise that the 2x2 church is just another church started by a man and a church built upon the sand at that. It was started as a breakaway street preaching movement by a madcap Scotsman who believed himself to be a biblical character. It wrecked havoc across ireland preaching hell, fire and damnation causing uproar and division. And then one day it went underground, embraced respectability and sought to bury its embarrassing past. It did this through a mixture of clever deflection and downright deception the most blatant perhaps being the removal of the name of Edward Cooney from the list of hymns old and new authors. There’s not even any dispute about this. Matt10
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Post by nathan on Apr 16, 2018 18:30:17 GMT -5
Yes I heard that many times. This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10 Can you name ONE church or group has celibacy ministers, Sunday morning meetings in homes for worship with the believers, preachers sending going forth 2 and 2 as workers as long as they can.
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Post by emy on Apr 16, 2018 19:18:56 GMT -5
What I bolded above in your post, is exactly why many people believed their group WAS special. I agree, nothing can be tracked back in an unbroken line to the death of Jesus, though the RCC can come pretty close. It was that little bit of information that a lot of people really liked to believe, mostly because it was felt no other group could claim that. That should have been the red flag, but people do like to think they've found the only right way and tend to ignore the truth. If it sounds to good to be true, it's not likely true. I was discussing this idea with a friend who doesn't post or read this board, or any board. I asked: Do you think most of the people we know who chose to be in this fellowship did it because they thought it can be traced back to Jesus (somehow)? She answered very quickly: No, I think they did because they could see it lines up with the Bible.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 20:10:34 GMT -5
What I bolded above in your post, is exactly why many people believed their group WAS special. I agree, nothing can be tracked back in an unbroken line to the death of Jesus, though the RCC can come pretty close. It was that little bit of information that a lot of people really liked to believe, mostly because it was felt no other group could claim that. That should have been the red flag, but people do like to think they've found the only right way and tend to ignore the truth. If it sounds to good to be true, it's not likely true. I was discussing this idea with a friend who doesn't post or read this board, or any board. I asked: Do you think most of the people we know who chose to be in this fellowship did it because they thought it can be traced back to Jesus (somehow)? She answered very quickly: No, I think they did because they could see it lines up with the Bible. even though i was told by family it went back 2000 years that wasn't why i joined, i joined because the people (my family included) seemed different in form and substance and there was a peace about them that the world didn't have....
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 16, 2018 21:10:45 GMT -5
Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
Yes my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing. They spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way. They were under no illusions as to when and how it started. You are quite happy to call people liars but when I call others dumb you get right off your bike. As I said to Matt 10 - I am an observer in all this, but I will defend anyone that I think is been unfairly slaughtered - whatever their belief, and from what I heard for quite a few years I don't believe people were lied to In your opinion the workers were liars, in my opinion those that thought it was an unbroken line of workers from the beginning didn't think things through. (There is nothing in history that can be traced with an unbroken line back 2000 years) No more to be said really. S0, janj,, your parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing and "they spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way."
To whom did they "speak freely" to? Among their own family? - Did they speak "freely" about to those that were in their fellowship meetings and conventions etc who weren't their family?
I would bet my life that they did not! If everyone had known the truth and spoke "freely and openly" about the beginnings as you say that your parents were, there would NOT have been this crisis in the last few years!
You call them "dumb" because many people simply DID not have enough education in the history of the world to figured that out and thus YOU want blame them !
You blame those who deceived instead the deceivers ! The workers kept people as ignorant as possible along that line by constantly warning people AGAINST "book learning"
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Post by Grant on Apr 16, 2018 22:22:38 GMT -5
This raises the interesting question of why ‘we’ are the true church and all the other churches are false churches? The obvious answer is that the workers claim that 2x2 church, and only the 2x2 church, has an unbroken link back to the shores of Galilee (for want of a better term) and it is this unbroken linkage (which requires the absence of an earthly founder) that makes it the only true church. However given that the 2x2 church had its roots in the faith mission and had a former faith mission worker as its founder this answer is not a credible one. The alternative answer is that the 2x2 church is the only true church because its system of worship and its beliefs are those of the ‘original’ New Testament church and no other church adheres to these. However this doesn’t stand up to scrutiny as there are other churches which meet in homes, send preachers out 2x2, have conventions, have a celibate ministry, use the KJV and have their own hymn books etc. Accepting this as a credible answer leads one to the conclusion that if anyone starts a church along the lines of the 2x2 church tomorrow it will be a true church too. However even the 2x2 church itself rejects this. So then, presuming that you believed the 2x2 workers when they claimed many times that the 2x2 church is the only true church, what do you understand to have been the basis for this claim? Matt10 Can you name ONE church or group has celibacy ministers, Sunday morning meetings in homes for worship with the believers, preachers sending going forth 2 and 2 as workers as long as they can.
Christ within is our hope of glory, Nathan. Not without which are just mens' works and do not save.
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Post by nathan on Apr 16, 2018 22:29:34 GMT -5
Can you name ONE church or group has celibacy ministers, Sunday morning meetings in homes for worship with the believers, preachers sending going forth 2 and 2 as workers as long as they can.
Christ within is our hope of glory, Nathan. Not without which are just mens' works and do not save. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-28 "NOT everyone say unto me Lord, Lord... prophesied/preaching in my name, and doing many wonderful works shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that does the Will of my Father in heaven..."
These people believed or thought they had Christ within but Jesus said "I knew you NOT. Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity."
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Post by Grant on Apr 17, 2018 4:12:07 GMT -5
So they didn't have Christ within if he said he didn't know them. And yes there will be those who will preach and do many wonderful works in his name such as going out 2x2 if you think that's wonderful but that won't save them.
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Post by snow on Apr 17, 2018 14:15:27 GMT -5
What I bolded above in your post, is exactly why many people believed their group WAS special. I agree, nothing can be tracked back in an unbroken line to the death of Jesus, though the RCC can come pretty close. It was that little bit of information that a lot of people really liked to believe, mostly because it was felt no other group could claim that. That should have been the red flag, but people do like to think they've found the only right way and tend to ignore the truth. If it sounds to good to be true, it's not likely true. I was discussing this idea with a friend who doesn't post or read this board, or any board. I asked: Do you think most of the people we know who chose to be in this fellowship did it because they thought it can be traced back to Jesus (somehow)? She answered very quickly: No, I think they did because they could see it lines up with the Bible. I can see that actually. Even when I left and still believed in God, I thought that the friends and workers had one of the better systems out there as far as churches went. I respected them. Of course I wasn't bothered by their different doctrine from mainstream Christian churches like those that have left and are still Christian/theists. If I believed in God, I think I would have still been inclined to be part of the F&W's. Since I've come on here I have heard about shunning and excommunications etc. which I never knew about when I was young I'm no longer so sure.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 20:50:40 GMT -5
Oh, That was a easy one to figure out.
After workers had denied as long as possible that the 2x2's had began in Ireland (burn all evidence to the contrary, books etc.) but finally realized that they could no longer deny it because of overwhelming evidence (thanks in a large part to Cherie) -then they had to start using different tactics.
The tactic you presented was a prime example.
Blame the victim for being "dumb!" That one is particularly odious! You are blaming people for believing something that workers told them .
I was a child, born & raised in the 2x2's. I was supposed to "think things though" when workers tried control everything they told you without Question? That excuse stinks to high heaven!
I am sure they have more excuses, -so try another one.
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad. Do you know Review. Can you give me an honest answer?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 16:01:22 GMT -5
Not sure if this is where I should post this. I grew up in, well I was born in Newfoundland, moved to Quebec Canada when I was 11. I am b&r but questioning alot lately. Realizing that the F&W leave out verses, pick and choose verses and PART of verses to meet the conformity of the 2x2's There where several families that left meetings in Quebec when I was growing up it would have been 1998-2000 I believe. As kids we were just told they got "offended" but I want to know the real reason. I was VERY close to one of the families sons. One min they were there the next they were gone. It has left be boggled to this very day. That families last name is Mason. The others I can't quite remember. Anyways ibwas wondering if anyone on here has any info Thank you! Bonjour havejoy Comment allez vous ? Your post brings me back 20 years ago Richmond ,my last convention .I knew the Masson brothers very well Gilles and François and i can assure you that they were not mental cases at all , when i was living in Quebec city Gilles did some work for me and we used to go to meeting together on Sunday at Miles , François and his wife were great people .I know who you are , i often talked with your father at convention .As for the reason the Massons left it shouldn't be too too hard for you to know since they are related to some people very close to you.Many left you say i must have been the first wave , a wave of one .You will find a lot of help here and if you have any question for me you can write i will answer . Michel Crête mco27@sympatico.ca
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Post by Scott Ross on May 11, 2018 12:56:24 GMT -5
Janj , How long have you been professing ? Were your parents & grandparents professing, -as were you "born & raised" in the 2x2's?
S0, you knew that it did NOT go back to the "shores of Gallalee" because there were no workers lists, etc.? But when others didn't pick up on that, -you call them "dumb!" and they should be "embarrassed ?"
You realize that when the workers first came to the US that a lot of the people couldn't even read nor write? My grandparents couldn't.
What ever the workers said they had to believe.
Thus they WERE DECEIVED!
BUT you found it "amusing" that people felt that they'd been "lied" to.? You call them "dumb" and feel yourself so smart that you can judge them?
You must think a damn lot of yourself. Your hubris is overwhelming!
For those like yourself who want to stay in the fellowship, -fine, stay there. I don't care one way or the other what you do about that. It s your life & your right to do as you want.
What I really resent it that you think that in order for you to do so, -that you have to shore up you decision by claiming that others were "dumb!"
(FYI, I had known it since I was a child, but many, -if not most, -did NOT KNOW IT! AND it was a terrible let down and feeling of betrayal)
Yes my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing. They spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way. They were under no illusions as to when and how it started. You are quite happy to call people liars but when I call others dumb you get right off your bike. As I said to Matt 10 - I am an observer in all this, but I will defend anyone that I think is been unfairly slaughtered - whatever their belief, and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest. In your opinion the workers were liars, in my opinion those that thought it was an unbroken line of workers from the beginning didn't think things through. (There is nothing in history that can be traced with an unbroken line back 2000 years) No more to be said really. ....and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest....
In a meeting I had several years ago with an overseer and the other most senior worker in that field, during our discussion I brought up the fact that we had been lied to about the beginnings of the truth fellowship. Their response was that " We were lied to also". The point was that they too had been deceived about the beginnings of the church, but that they were able to work through that in their later years. They were quite open about the subject. Incidentally, in that same meeting I showed them how to register here on the TMB, and we went over several of the posts here that were pertinent to the discussion we were having. On a side note, where we were meeting at a coffee shop, a bunch of young folks came in and set up and started playing loud music to where we were almost shouting to hear each other. We all got a laugh out of that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2018 18:05:30 GMT -5
I'm not the least bit worried what you think I am but I guess I am just as entitled to opinion as anyone else. It shows how blinkered sone people are on this forum when they think that if you don't agree with all the anti 2x2 statements then you must be a worker. Kind of funny but also a bit sad. Do you know Review. Can you give me an honest answer? janj is unable to respond right now. I hope I do him/her no injustice, but I think I could answer "yes", and "given occupation, doesn't seem likely" for him/her, in that order.
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Post by withlove on May 31, 2018 18:55:41 GMT -5
We're talking about a period of less than 120 years. Lots of us knew people who were around at the beginning. Why did they stay silent when they heard the story change? And why did they continue their whole lives to stay silent?
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Post by withlove on May 31, 2018 19:01:23 GMT -5
Yes my parents, grandparents and great grandparents were professing. They spoke frequently about the early worker coming out from the other churches - about the beginning of the way. They were under no illusions as to when and how it started. You are quite happy to call people liars but when I call others dumb you get right off your bike. As I said to Matt 10 - I am an observer in all this, but I will defend anyone that I think is been unfairly slaughtered - whatever their belief, and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest. In your opinion the workers were liars, in my opinion those that thought it was an unbroken line of workers from the beginning didn't think things through. (There is nothing in history that can be traced with an unbroken line back 2000 years) No more to be said really. ....and from what I heard for quite a few yearsI don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest....
In a meeting I had several years ago with an overseer and the other most senior worker in that field, during our discussion I brought up the fact that we had been lied to about the beginnings of the truth fellowship. Their response was that " We were lied to also". The point was that they too had been deceived about the beginnings of the church, but that they were able to work through that in their later years. They were quite open about the subject. Incidentally, in that same meeting I showed them how to register here on the TMB, and we went over several of the posts here that were pertinent to the discussion we were having. On a side note, where we were meeting at a coffee shop, a bunch of young folks came in and set up and started playing loud music to where we were almost shouting to hear each other. We all got a laugh out of that. That's interesting! I'd like to know if they ever thought about admitting this openly to congregations. No matter how "open" they were with you, that's not enough. Why didn't anyone tell me? Why do you have to find out through outsiders?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 31, 2018 20:45:00 GMT -5
....and from what I heard for quite a few years I don't believe people were lied to. I think many, like you, heard something and assumed the rest....
In a meeting I had several years ago with an overseer and the other most senior worker in that field, during our discussion I brought up the fact that we had been lied to about the beginnings of the truth fellowship. Their response was that " We were lied to also". The point was that they too had been deceived about the beginnings of the church, but that they were able to work through that in their later years. They were quite open about the subject. Incidentally, in that same meeting I showed them how to register here on the TMB, and we went over several of the posts here that were pertinent to the discussion we were having. On a side note, where we were meeting at a coffee shop, a bunch of young folks came in and set up and started playing loud music to where we were almost shouting to hear each other. We all got a laugh out of that. That's interesting! I'd like to know if they ever thought about admitting this openly to congregations. No matter how "open" they were with you, that's not enough. Why didn't anyone tell me? Why do you have to find out through outsiders? You ask an interesting question, withlove.
For those that knew or even learned about it later, - WHY was it not openly discussed so that everyone knew it? What was there about it that caused everyone to not talk about it?
I am sure that my father probably went into the work not knowing. I know that other workers did so.
Yet he must have found out somewhere along the line because that is how I always knew. It was because I heard he & my mother talking. How much learning it factored into his leaving the work, - I don't know.
But there had to be some reason that the "truth" about the *TRUTH* was shuttered and NOT discussed openly. No matter how some people try to say now that it was the people who just "assumed" something, -that is a blatant cop out!
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Post by withlove on May 31, 2018 21:13:52 GMT -5
That's interesting! I'd like to know if they ever thought about admitting this openly to congregations. No matter how "open" they were with you, that's not enough. Why didn't anyone tell me? Why do you have to find out through outsiders? You ask an interesting question, withlove.
For those that knew or even learned about it later, - WHY was it not openly discussed so that everyone knew it? What was there about it that caused everyone to not talk about it?
I am sure that my father probably went into the work not knowing. I know that other workers did so.
Yet he must have found out somewhere along the line because that is how I always knew. It was because I heard he & my mother talking. How much learning it factored into his leaving the work, - I don't know.
But there had to be some reason that the "truth" about the *TRUTH* was shuttered and NOT discussed openly. No matter how some people try to say now that it was the people who just "assumed" something, -that is a blatant cop out!
Exactly. Exactly. And even now, it is not openly discussed anywhere I've been. I shared the history with a few before I left. They hadn't heard it before and were shocked. And upset with me for telling them. Which was incredible to watch. Everyone who knows has a responsibility to tell. The posters here who think people who don't know have made an assumption rather than be duped...why haven't you explained to them? Do you enjoy feeling superior to your brothers and sisters?
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Post by dmmichgood on May 31, 2018 23:16:56 GMT -5
You ask an interesting question, withlove.
For those that knew or even learned about it later, - WHY was it not openly discussed so that everyone knew it? What was there about it that caused everyone to not talk about it?
I am sure that my father probably went into the work not knowing. I know that other workers did so.
Yet he must have found out somewhere along the line because that is how I always knew. It was because I heard he & my mother talking. How much learning it factored into his leaving the work, - I don't know.
But there had to be some reason that the "truth" about the *TRUTH* was shuttered and NOT discussed openly. No matter how some people try to say now that it was the people who just "assumed" something, -that is a blatant cop out!
Exactly. Exactly. And even now, it is not openly discussed anywhere I've been. I shared the history with a few before I left. They hadn't heard it before and were shocked. And upset with me for telling them. Which was incredible to watch. Everyone who knows has a responsibility to tell. The posters here who think people who don't know have made an assumption rather than be duped...why haven't you explained to them? Do you enjoy feeling superior to your brothers and sisters? Yes, -often people do get upset with one who brings out a truth to them. It's akin to the age old "killing the messenger," -as if it is the messenger's fault.
I remember well how upset my brother and his wife was when they first found out. They just refused to believe it even though it was coming from their own family.
That is why it is inexcusable for having kept it quiet all those years. And now for some people try to blame them for not knowing as if they should have figured it out, -that makes it doubly cruel.
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