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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 16:49:00 GMT -5
Many people believe that to report means the child could well end up worse off. In cases that are reported sometimes nothing happens from there....there are quite a few reasons why this could be happening.....some are: the department they are reported to is not set up to take and respond to such a large number of claims.( in many parts of Australia mandatory reporting is an online affair with the reporter having no contact with real people ever). Once a report is made the system is somehow corrupted by key players. That would be a sad situation. In the two states where I have been involved, once the report is files it will be investigated. Perhaps not a well as it could be but someone from child services will show up. Sort of like calling 911 (emergency number). Even if you call back and say your child called someone will be knocking on your door to look into it. "Not as well as it could be"....are the qualifying words.....I think herein lies the problem....sad situation it is!! |
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Post by Grant on Apr 20, 2018 17:43:44 GMT -5
Howitis was talking about children being surgically repaired as a result of sexual abuse. These are surgeons who are required to report it not general members of the public. Why are they not reporting it? Many people believe that to report means the child could well end up worse off. In cases that are reported sometimes nothing happens from there....there are quite a few reasons why this could be happening.....some are: the department they are reported to is not set up to take and respond to such a large number of claims.( in many parts of Australia mandatory reporting is an online affair with the reporter having no contact with real people ever). Once a report is made the system is somehow corrupted by key players. It's not the surgeons call to make that choice. How many surgeons are willing to put their career on the line for judging whether a child is better off or not for reporting the abuse? I'm sure, none. A child who is being surgically repaired due to sexual abuse is a high priority case and is investigated and not swept under the carpet. Do you really know anything about police or child welfare services in cases like this? Obviously not. We are not talking about historic sexual abuse cases which the police choose not to prosecute due to not feeling confident they will win the case due to not having enough evidence and not wanting to put the victim through the courts for this reason but cases where a child is presently being sexually abused and surgically repaired as a result. |
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 18:42:13 GMT -5
Many people believe that to report means the child could well end up worse off. In cases that are reported sometimes nothing happens from there....there are quite a few reasons why this could be happening.....some are: the department they are reported to is not set up to take and respond to such a large number of claims.( in many parts of Australia mandatory reporting is an online affair with the reporter having no contact with real people ever). Once a report is made the system is somehow corrupted by key players. It's not the surgeons call to make that choice. How many surgeons are willing to put their career on the line for judging whether a child is better off or not for reporting the abuse? I'm sure, none. A child who is being surgically repaired due to sexual abuse is a high priority case and is investigated and not swept under the carpet. Do you really know anything about police or child welfare services in cases like this? Obviously not. We are not talking about historic sexual abuse cases which the police choose not to prosecute due to not feeling confident they will win the case due to not having enough evidence and not wanting to put the victim through the courts for this reason but cases where a child is presently being sexually abused and surgically repaired as a result. In Australia nurses are also mandatory reporters and funnily enough I actually do know quite a bit about these situations, regardless of what you decide about me. And I also know this....that often when reports are made that is as far as it goes or a quick visit is made to the child's parents and they are at worst put on notice, providing the child doesn't present to the same health facility or within the same region again basically they are off the radar and abuse can continue for many years. Enuf I was once sacked from a position because I wanted to make a mandatory report on someone....I made it anyway, but lost my position, this was not within a church group, but is clearly an example of how things aren't working!!! The theory works fine in practice it clearly isn't!! |
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Post by Grant on Apr 20, 2018 18:44:01 GMT -5
How long ago is once. You knew of a child being sexually abused, reported it and lost your job?
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 18:48:17 GMT -5
How long ago is once. You knew of a child being sexually abused, reported it and lost your job? Yes enuf 3 years ago not 20 or 30!!! I hope you feel better now because I don't and won't until the system changes. |
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Post by Grant on Apr 20, 2018 22:20:55 GMT -5
Why would I feel better? I deal with what you call the system daily. Reporting is mandatory for health professionals so not sure why you would lose your job for doing what is required by law but it is not my business to know your case nor do I want to unless you choose to. Sorry the system let you down.
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 22:48:00 GMT -5
Why would I feel better? I deal with what you call the system daily. Reporting is mandatory for health professionals so not sure why you would lose your job for doing what is required by law but it is not my business to know your case nor do I want to unless you choose to. Sorry the system let you down. I was not in a health professional role at that time, however it was a mandatory reporting role...it is not me that was let down by the system but a child and children everywhere....if you are within this system daily ...do you not question where are the charges being laid, where are the sentences? |
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 23:03:36 GMT -5
In Australia nurses are also mandatory reporters and funnily enough I actually do know quite a bit about these situations, regardless of what you decide about me. And I also know this....that often when reports are made that is as far as it goes or a quick visit is made to the child's parents and they are at worst put on notice, providing the child doesn't present to the same health facility or within the same region again basically they are off the radar and abuse can continue for many years. Enuf I was once sacked from a position because I wanted to make a mandatory report on someone....I made it anyway, but lost my position, this was not within a church group, but is clearly an example of how things aren't working!!! The theory works fine in practice it clearly isn't!! The government has the following in place: Mandatory reporting is a term used to describe the legislative requirement for selected groups of people to report suspected cases of child abuse and neglect to government authorities.Various types of abuse are required to be reported but in all locations sexual abuse has to be reported. If the report is made to government authorities how is the treatment facility involved? Does this mean that criminals can simply take victims to different health facilities and not ever be on anyone's radar? If the report is made to government authorities how can an employer terminate the user for making the report? Are the reports public record? |
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 23:20:05 GMT -5
Hi rational yes I know it seems crazy...basically precedence in these cases is often given to those that are reported through the health system as "real" damage is being done and it is often noticeable....however if health assistance is not sought, often these cases remain off the radar for years, this is one reason that police officials are so fed up with the system and it often takes years to actually charge someone. The other way is to take children to different health areas or another state for assistance and often the data is not synced and therefore doesn't flag up. When I lost my position I had to report also to a higher up that I had reported...end of story. Truth is I no longer wanted to be affiliated with an organisation that felt covering up such atrocities was important. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 0:22:26 GMT -5
I think it was you who stated that this case had much to do with the 2x2 church howitis ! Yes I did say that Roselyn using the word DON'T and I posted quite a few posts after that, did I not? The point is this if society keeps on blaming churches, sporting clubs, activity clubs etc for CSA we will make little progress in this area. Look at how this judge treated this case, really think about it....think about what it means for society in general if all cases were given those types of sentences......40 years ago a DV case if it got to court was almost always thrown out and the man often got away scot free....if we dont change how we think as a society and stop playing the blame game these perpetrators will always get light sentences and victims will never report. Don't try and tell me there's less CSA now just because people are aware....do you not ever wonder why most of these cases are historical? Yes we have mandatory reporting why then is it not working? At a hospital not so far from me they do at least one surgery daily on repairing a child from CSA yet these cases are rarely reported, why? The only hope we have as parents and grandparents is to be more vigilant ourselves and let people know when there is concerning behaviour and let individuals know if their behaviour is out of line. I am sure by now everyone is well aware of my views on CSA so not sure what you are meaning howitis ? Yes we have to be vigilant as parents and grandparents, that is EXACTLY WHY the question was asked of a Worker why should this man be allowed to go to Convention? The thread diverted to his wife and why she stayed with him, my point was that the 2x2 Church DID have a big impact on this case, but you don't seem to want to believe that ! |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2018 0:41:50 GMT -5
If you follow the thread back to the 1st page roselyn you will note that it was brought up about the wife remaining so and in this case I think it has less to do with the church than the abusive husband!
Although I do not advocate CSA perpetrators attending convention,
I would think if most parents and people were vigilant in this day and age, with such vigilance most children are safe...of course what one may seem as vigilant might be slackness to another.
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Post by Grant on Apr 21, 2018 1:28:42 GMT -5
I was saying sorry referring to you having lost your job through reporting abuse, howitis. The system should have intervened in the case of you losing your job. There are avenues for those who have been unfairly dismissed such as employment tribunals or similar for those wishing to take it further.
I have supported 100s of people from the beginning to the end, from reporting to the police to the court case and outcome and have seen major changes over the years. One of the main reason for a case of historic abuse to not go through court is because the police do not think they will win the case and don't want to put the client through the trauma of the courts if they don't think they will win. It goes on file and if more victims come forward then the client is contacted often years later as a witness making the case stronger. It can take 2-3 years for a historic case to go through court because of the number of cases but fast if the child is in immediate danger. Child protection services still have to go through court in order to obtain custody of a child.
In our country child protection services attempt to visit every case where abuse is reported. The child is in more danger if the abuse is not reported than if it is. The perpretrator is removed from the home.
Social services have come under enormous criticism for 'breaking' up families in cases where it is deemed that they shouldn't have. My experience is that police and child protection services are proactive and are doing a great job but they are not God. Judges and Lawyers frequently let victims down as in the case in this thread.
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Post by snow on Apr 21, 2018 15:51:29 GMT -5
Does that mean the doctor that is surgically repairing the child doesn't have to report it? What's the use of mandatory reporting then? What more evidence does anyone need? They may not know who did it, but reporting it to the police or social services would be a step towards hopefully finding out who it was that did that to them? The following is how it is in Canada. Some provinces have stricter laws than others. www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/who-has-a-legal-obligation-to-report-child-abuse/Sounds like in the case you proposed the doctor was working within his field. In most places it also means that if the doctor is mowing his lawn s/he is not required to report abuse s/he may become aware of. Of course, in more and more places, everyone is a mandatory reporter. From what you posted it seems everyone is required to report: In Ontario, the Child and Family Services Act requires every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse of a child to the appropriate authorities. A person is required to report each time he or she has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if he or she has already reported a suspicion in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.Legally some states have words like: If your suspicions of child maltreatment develop outside the confines of your professional obligations, then you are not a mandated reporter. This does not address the ethical position. Yes. In many parts of Canada everyone is a mandated reporter of CSA. Also of any suspected physical abuse of a child that is not sexual in nature. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 19:42:33 GMT -5
If you follow the thread back to the 1st page roselyn you will note that it was brought up about the wife remaining so and in this case I think it has less to do with the church than the abusive husband! Although I do not advocate CSA perpetrators attending convention, I would think if most parents and people were vigilant in this day and age, with such vigilance most children are safe...of course what one may seem as vigilant might be slackness to another. What makes you think this case has less to do with the church and more to do with the abusive husband howitis ? |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 21, 2018 20:31:10 GMT -5
Here in the US it is Sexual Assault Awareness Month.
Often sexual assault goes unreported by anyone, -even by the victims themselves.
Oft times the victim feels ashamed as if it somehow is their fault!
On the opinion page today a man wrote that as a child he was abused by a priest but never realized that his brother was also abused.
They never even told one another until they were in their late 40's.
He urges sexual abuse victims to tell someone!
To not hold it in!
There are survivors groups now in place to help the victims.
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2018 20:56:55 GMT -5
If you follow the thread back to the 1st page roselyn you will note that it was brought up about the wife remaining so and in this case I think it has less to do with the church than the abusive husband! Although I do not advocate CSA perpetrators attending convention, I would think if most parents and people were vigilant in this day and age, with such vigilance most children are safe...of course what one may seem as vigilant might be slackness to another. What makes you think this case has less to do with the church and more to do with the abusive husband howitis ? If you think about it carefully Roselyn and read what I have written ....you'll work it out Roselyn I promise |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2018 21:03:44 GMT -5
Yes in many places reported cases are checked, how well is another matter, often the perpetrator is not removed because no one is going to admit to being a perpetrator. It is of concern to the honest police, the people in children's services who actually want to do their job, but to many a job is a job and getting paid is all that matters. The attitude often is I don't get paid any more to deal with these sensitive cases so why bother....harsh I know, but not many actually want to be dragged into this awful stuff....it's easier to tick a box and say I've visited. Thankfully in some areas this casual attitude has come to light and some children's services have come under fire....not near enough, imo
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 21:13:08 GMT -5
What makes you think this case has less to do with the church and more to do with the abusive husband howitis ? If you think about it carefully Roselyn and read what I have written ....you'll work it out Roselyn I promise Well when I re-read some posts there seems to be some things that you have said that are conflicting. I am going to ASSume from your posts that maybe you went to school with him  ?? But did you know his wife and family howitis ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 21:17:48 GMT -5
I believe at one time his wife tried to separate from him, she was supported by many, but in the end obviously went back to him....one may never know why, however his bribing tactics are such that it could well be she has been threatened. This is correct. After he was arrested the first time, their (adult) children packed some of the wife's belongings & took her away while he was not at home. If that path was what she truly wanted, she would have been kept safe, he would not have been able to get to her. She lied about still being in contact with him & in the end it was her choice to go back. She chose the monster who molested her own daughter under her own roof & in front of her own eyes over seeing out her days with her children, watching them grow up & also watching her grandchildren grow up. She made that choice knowing that she would never have any kind of contact with her children/grandchildren ever again & she still chose him. From what I understand the 2x2's did play a role back when it all happened by helping to cover it all up. In my opinion that was just enabling him to continue to offend... which is exactly what his wife did too by not coming forward when she knew exactly what he was up to. Allowing him to continue to attend convention was just like offering him up a smorgasbord. I think this post from thelight sums up the point I was trying to make in regard to the 2x2's role in this case. |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2018 22:03:19 GMT -5
If you think about it carefully Roselyn and read what I have written ....you'll work it out Roselyn I promise Well when I re-read some posts there seems to be some things that you have said that are conflicting. I am going to ASSume from your posts that maybe you went to school with him ?? But did you know his wife and family howitis ? You may ASSume whatever you like Roselyn....your word not mine. There have been many 2x2's involved in this case than you may ever know and I can assure you they did nothing to try and cover this case up. As for me knowing his family, yes both sides and I even knew his parents and grandparents and am still in contact with many of his and her family members both in and out of the church... |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 22:56:59 GMT -5
Well when I re-read some posts there seems to be some things that you have said that are conflicting. I am going to ASSume from your posts that maybe you went to school with him ?? But did you know his wife and family howitis ? You may ASSume whatever you like Roselyn....your word not mine. There have been many 2x2's involved in this case than you may ever know and I can assure you they did nothing to try and cover this case up. As for me knowing his family, yes both sides and I even knew his parents and grandparents and am still in contact with many of his and her family members both in and out of the church... So the then Head Worker of Qld trying to shut it all down never happened and no one ever spoke to a Worker about allowing him to go to Convention...... howitis ? |
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Post by rational on Apr 21, 2018 23:19:10 GMT -5
You may ASSume whatever you like Roselyn....your word not mine. There have been many 2x2's involved in this case than you may ever know and I can assure you they did nothing to try and cover this case up. As for me knowing his family, yes both sides and I even knew his parents and grandparents and am still in contact with many of his and her family members both in and out of the church... Sounds like a lot of people were aware of the abuse. I am surprised that knowing the family as you said that there were not signs that would have raised your suspicions. Of course, if the victim does not wish to press charges and no one is willing to come forward there is not much that can be done without evidence. |
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Post by howitis on Apr 21, 2018 23:35:51 GMT -5
You may ASSume whatever you like Roselyn....your word not mine. There have been many 2x2's involved in this case than you may ever know and I can assure you they did nothing to try and cover this case up. As for me knowing his family, yes both sides and I even knew his parents and grandparents and am still in contact with many of his and her family members both in and out of the church... So the then Head Worker of Qld trying to shut it all down never happened and no one ever spoke to a Worker about allowing him to go to Convention...... howitis ? Is that what you think Roselyn, how do you know no one said anything? It would seem by your posts if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen....life is never like that....and I know concerns for this situation had been raised for years. It's not the victim's or the church's fault this case has dragged on for so long....is it. There are many many people who have been appalled by this man for a long long time and have said plenty. There have even been people of the 2x2 church who have felt certain family members who were not of the church gave him way too much leeway and access to children. So yes rational many were wary, many only had their gut feelings to go on, no facts....perhaps some may have offered support but many didn't. .Which is what you generally find in these cases....they are always complicated. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 21, 2018 23:49:21 GMT -5
So the then Head Worker of Qld trying to shut it all down never happened and no one ever spoke to a Worker about allowing him to go to Convention...... howitis ? Is that what you think Roselyn, how do you know no one said anything? It would seem by your posts if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen....life is never like that....and I know concerns for this situation had been raised for years. It's not the victim's or the church's fault this case has dragged on for so long....is it. There are many many people who have been appalled by this man for a long long time and have said plenty. There have even been people of the 2x2 church who have felt certain family members who were not of the church gave him way too much leeway and access to children. So yes rational many were wary, many only had their gut feelings to go on, no facts....perhaps some may have offered support but many didn't. .Which is what you generally find in these cases....they are always complicated. , you are missing my point. You are trying to say that the 2x2 church has no influence on this case, I am saying that they did ! You too seem to think if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen. I know what was said by the then head worker and I know the response to asking why he should be allowed to go to Convention.... now if the church had no impact on this case WHY were they going to allow him to attend. |
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Post by howitis on Apr 22, 2018 0:28:27 GMT -5
Is that what you think Roselyn, how do you know no one said anything? It would seem by your posts if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen....life is never like that....and I know concerns for this situation had been raised for years. It's not the victim's or the church's fault this case has dragged on for so long....is it. There are many many people who have been appalled by this man for a long long time and have said plenty. There have even been people of the 2x2 church who have felt certain family members who were not of the church gave him way too much leeway and access to children. So yes rational many were wary, many only had their gut feelings to go on, no facts....perhaps some may have offered support but many didn't. .Which is what you generally find in these cases....they are always complicated. , you are missing my point. You are trying to say that the 2x2 church has no influence on this case, I am saying that they did ! You too seem to think if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen. I know what was said by the then head worker and I know the response to asking why he should be allowed to go to Convention.... now if the church had no impact on this case WHY were they going to allow him to attend. Did he attend Roselyn?? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 22, 2018 1:02:35 GMT -5
howitis , you are missing my point. You are trying to say that the 2x2 church has no influence on this case, I am saying that they did ! You too seem to think if you are not privy to something it doesn't happen. I know what was said by the then head worker and I know the response to asking why he should be allowed to go to Convention.... now if the church had no impact on this case WHY were they going to allow him to attend. Did he attend Roselyn?? No he didn't thankfully ! But does that change what the Worker said about allowing him to attend howitis ? |
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Post by howitis on Apr 22, 2018 1:13:45 GMT -5
No he didn't thankfully ! But does that change what the Worker said about allowing him to attend howitis ? Well there you go.....you know what one conversation was, I may know of some too, neither of us know all the conversations....do we. We can ASSume much ....it doesnt make it absolute does it?? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 22, 2018 2:40:45 GMT -5
No he didn't thankfully ! But does that change what the Worker said about allowing him to attend howitis ? Well there you go.....you know what one conversation was, I may know of some too, neither of us know all the conversations....do we. We can ASSume much ....it doesnt make it absolute does it?? You are avoiding the issue howitis ! My concern is what the Worker said when questioned if he should be at Convention ! "If anyone needs Convention he does" is hardly a responsible reply to a man who is on bail for CSA ! |
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?? But did you know his wife and family 