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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 19, 2018 0:56:03 GMT -5
Pressures from outside have a big impact on women who are in an abusive relationship, particularity back in the 60's and 70's (and before that) also in this case I believe the "church" had a big impact, the same as it did in my mothers case. The women were unable to support themselves and sometimes parents told then that they had "made their bed" so put up with it !!! Also as dmmichgood has said the women had no education and limited skills. But at what point is enough enough ? What would we do if we knew our child was being abused by our spouse ?
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Post by Grant on Apr 19, 2018 4:03:12 GMT -5
Also Stockholm syndrome
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Post by howitis on Apr 19, 2018 4:14:38 GMT -5
Pressures from outside have a big impact on women who are in an abusive relationship, particularity back in the 60's and 70's (and before that) also in this case I believe the "church" had a big impact, the same as it did in my mothers case. The women were unable to support themselves and sometimes parents told then that they had "made their bed" so put up with it !!! Also as dmmichgood has said the women had no education and limited skills. But at what point is enough enough ? What would we do if we knew our child was being abused by our spouse ? The biggest impact is how these people have been treated by their spouse...this is the person who is supposed to love them, cherish them care for them....it goes bad and they find it difficult to trust again. The angry husband looking for his estranged wife is not a force to be reckoned with....she often never feels safe and often is lulled into a position where others think she is safe and she ends up losing her life. Being protected by ones children is often not an option what if an argument/ fight breaks out when he comes looking and someone gets badly hurt, then the wife feels she put her son in jail and the mother feels guilty all over again....often there are no safe places for these women....please try to understand.
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Post by rational on Apr 19, 2018 7:31:32 GMT -5
There is a comment above about "His mother would not allow him to participate in sports of any sort." We weren't allowed to participate in town sports as children because they were often played on Sunday. Nobody I know has turned out to be a monster because of it. Maybe he had medical reasons why he couldn't play?? I'm not condoning anything he did, though. Just trying to clarify a fact. I agree. Many people here have grown up in the F&W group and are not criminals. For many the F&W is a good scapegoat for the wrong that they see and their own experiences.
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Post by Grant on Apr 19, 2018 14:50:59 GMT -5
Many women go back to their partners several times before finally being strong enough to not go back again. This is often due to things such as his manipulation and promises. He appears repentant and says he will never do it again.
The woman begins to doubt her own reality and feels that she didn't try hard enough. He tries to make her feel sorry for him and a lot of emotional manipulation goes into it. Of course when she gets back things are often worse and harder for her to leave than before.
It usually takes several times before she stops believing his promises. There is the occasional time when the man wakes up after they split and changes with help but most do not.
A lot of things are responsible for her returning and background is a lot. Being brought up in a closed oppressive environment such as meetings is a large contributor. Belief that marriage is forever and the people around her pressuring her to stay. These people are usually in the oppressed environment which is also found in fundamentalist traditional churches.
He convinces her that it's all her fault and that no one else will want her and he breaks her down until her self esteem and worth are almost zero. She does not have the emotional or physical strength or even knowledge to know how to get out as he cuts her from her family or having any friends. She is afraid to reach out for help and often can't do it her self. He convinces her that those around her are the problem and interfering in their marriage and cuts her from them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 16:11:29 GMT -5
my mother went back 3-4 times to my abusive/violent father all in the name of love...its from my observation that women get weird when they have an abusive mate.... Wally, -how do you KNOW that it was "love?"
When did this happen? At that time, did your mother have the education and the skills to get a job and live without your father as a provider for you and her other children?
Did she have anyone where she could feel safe?
"Women get weird " is a strange way of appraising a mother who is trapped in a violent marriage!because thats what she said... before 1976 she had no education but she did have skills she worked for central national insurance of omaha as a manager and was quite the middle class woman at the time... she eventually after 4 tries moved us in with her sister and parents in washington state to escape him...
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 19, 2018 19:45:02 GMT -5
Pressures from outside have a big impact on women who are in an abusive relationship, particularity back in the 60's and 70's (and before that) also in this case I believe the "church" had a big impact, the same as it did in my mothers case. The women were unable to support themselves and sometimes parents told then that they had "made their bed" so put up with it !!! Also as dmmichgood has said the women had no education and limited skills. But at what point is enough enough ? What would we do if we knew our child was being abused by our spouse ? The biggest impact is how these people have been treated by their spouse...this is the person who is supposed to love them, cherish them care for them....it goes bad and they find it difficult to trust again. The angry husband looking for his estranged wife is not a force to be reckoned with....she often never feels safe and often is lulled into a position where others think she is safe and she ends up losing her life. Being protected by ones children is often not an option what if an argument/ fight breaks out when he comes looking and someone gets badly hurt, then the wife feels she put her son in jail and the mother feels guilty all over again....often there are no safe places for these women....please try to understand. howitis I do understand ! But lets not lose sight of their daughter and the abuse that happened to her.
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Post by howitis on Apr 19, 2018 20:04:18 GMT -5
The biggest impact is how these people have been treated by their spouse...this is the person who is supposed to love them, cherish them care for them....it goes bad and they find it difficult to trust again. The angry husband looking for his estranged wife is not a force to be reckoned with....she often never feels safe and often is lulled into a position where others think she is safe and she ends up losing her life. Being protected by ones children is often not an option what if an argument/ fight breaks out when he comes looking and someone gets badly hurt, then the wife feels she put her son in jail and the mother feels guilty all over again....often there are no safe places for these women....please try to understand. howitis I do understand ! But lets not lose sight of their daughter and the abuse that happened to her. I guess I should answer in case I get a "did you miss this post message'.....At no time did I ever say we need to lose sight of the daughter's suffering...or for that matter the other victims of this man's actions!!! What I am saying is that it is possible the wife did not feel safe separated from her husband ...monster or no.....I have a personal reason in believing this man is capable of extreme violence....let's just leave it at that if I may please. Many condemn a church influence or upbringing but I see more and more that this is just a vehicle used by a perpetrator and society so often used such as a cop out instead of addressing the problem....just look at this case the judge sentenced according to what was acceptable 40 years ago....if that's not a societal issue I have no idea what is!!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 19, 2018 20:17:46 GMT -5
Wally, -how do you KNOW that it was "love?"
When did this happen? At that time, did your mother have the education and the skills to get a job and live without your father as a provider for you and her other children?
Did she have anyone where she could feel safe?
"Women get weird " is a strange way of appraising a mother who is trapped in a violent marriage! because thats what she said... before 1976 she had no education but she did have skills she worked for central national insurance of omaha as a manager and was quite the middle class woman at the time... she eventually after 4 tries moved us in with her sister and parents in washington state to escape him... I am sorry, Wally.
How can children understand their mother moving back into an abusive situation when they too are being abused as well? I am glad that she finally made it out.
You have had a rough time of it, and I apologize for not having understood that.
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 19, 2018 20:28:10 GMT -5
howitis I do understand ! But lets not lose sight of their daughter and the abuse that happened to her. I guess I should answer in case I get a "did you miss this post message'.....At no time did I ever say we need to lose sight of the daughter's suffering...or for that matter the other victims of this man's actions!!! What I am saying is that it is possible the wife did not feel safe separated from her husband ...monster or no.....I have a personal reason in believing this man is capable of extreme violence....let's just leave it at that if I may please. Many condemn a church influence or upbringing but I see more and more that this is just a vehicle used by a perpetrator and society so often used such as a cop out instead of addressing the problem....just look at this case the judge sentenced according to what was acceptable 40 years ago....if that's not a societal issue I have no idea what is!! howitis, I am well aware of what this man is capable of. But I also know what was said by the then Head Worker of Queensland when this all first came out and what was said about allowing him to go to Convention, surely if you know what he is like you would have to agree that he should not have been allowed to go to meetings or Conventions. Church and upbringing had major roles in this case ,
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 20:28:25 GMT -5
because thats what she said... before 1976 she had no education but she did have skills she worked for central national insurance of omaha as a manager and was quite the middle class woman at the time... she eventually after 4 tries moved us in with her sister and parents in washington state to escape him... I am sorry, Wally.
How can children understand their mother moving back into an abusive situation when they too are being abused as well? I am glad that she finally made it out.
You have had a rough time of it, and I apologize for not having understood that.
no apology necessary you asked honest questions...
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Post by howitis on Apr 19, 2018 20:33:57 GMT -5
I guess I should answer in case I get a "did you miss this post message'.....At no time did I ever say we need to lose sight of the daughter's suffering...or for that matter the other victims of this man's actions!!! What I am saying is that it is possible the wife did not feel safe separated from her husband ...monster or no.....I have a personal reason in believing this man is capable of extreme violence....let's just leave it at that if I may please. Many condemn a church influence or upbringing but I see more and more that this is just a vehicle used by a perpetrator and society so often used such as a cop out instead of addressing the problem....just look at this case the judge sentenced according to what was acceptable 40 years ago....if that's not a societal issue I have no idea what is!! howitis , I am well aware of what this man is capable of. But I also know what was said by the then Head Worker of Queensland when this all first came out and what was said about allowing him to go to Convention, surely if you know what he is like you would have to agree that he should not have been allowed to go to meetings or Conventions. Church and upbringing had major roles in this case , Do you really Roselyn? I am not a Head Worker, I am not a family member and I am not one of his victims! You shift the goal posts quite a lot I was discussing reasons why the wife may have stayed with her husband, not conventions or anything else....you are the one that now it seems need to discuss the head worker of Queensland which I would think has got very little to do with the wife making a break from an abusive husband!
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Post by thelight on Apr 19, 2018 20:48:37 GMT -5
One positive that can come out of this is that we can be thankful for how far societal views have changed/come & they will hopefully continue to head in the right direction. Hopefully this post will make people aware that there are monsters living in society (if they have previously had their head buried in the sand), walking freely amongst us.
They say it takes a village to raise a child.... I'd have to agree - it also takes a village to protect a child & constantly keep an eye on them. I would like to hope that should someone have their concerns about another person or actually witness something, they would have the strength to come forward & voice their concerns. Too many people have been silenced & too many lives have been destroyed, many of those from children too young to understand what has/is happening to them, not knowing that they should never have to go through that situation. One child might be abused but the ramifications of that are far reaching with so many other affected by a single act. That child will never be the same again.
If you are a parent, hug your child/ren a little tighter for a little longer. Tell you that you love them. Make a pledge to yourself that you will do all that you can to protect them & all children.
Can I also say a big thank you to those who have disclosed such private information and stories, your strength is an inspiration.
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Post by howitis on Apr 19, 2018 20:51:49 GMT -5
One positive that can come out of this is that we can be thankful for how far societal views have changed/come & they will hopefully continue to head in the right direction. Hopefully this post will make people aware that there are monsters living in society (if they have previously had their head buried in the sand), walking freely amongst us. They say it takes a village to raise a child.... I'd have to agree - it also takes a village to protect a child & constantly keep an eye on them. I would like to hope that should someone have their concerns about another person or actually witness something, they would have the strength to come forward & voice their concerns. Too many people have been silenced & too many lives have been destroyed, many of those from children too young to understand what has/is happening to them, not knowing that they should never have to go through that situation. If you are a parent, hug your child/ren a little tighter for a little longer. Tell you that you love them. Make a pledge to yourself that you will do all that you can to protect them & all children. XXXX
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 19, 2018 23:55:08 GMT -5
I don't believe that this case has much to do with the '2x2' church in general....I think that most people within the church are appalled at this man's actions, his wife's and the lenient sentence. That being said, I cannot vouch for his claim of being abused as a youngster, what I do remember of him is that he was incredibly cruel to animals and other children and would not join in with playing a game, instead he would constantly disrupt it. His mother never allowed them to participate in sports of any sort. I believe at one time his wife tried to separate from him, she was supported by many, but in the end obviously went back to him....one may never know why, however his bribing tactics are such that it could well be she has been threatened. I know many of his relations both in and out of the church and all have said this man, even as a child displayed concerning behaviour, which has obviously continued into his adult life. I think it was you who stated that this case didn't have much to do with the 2x2 church howitis !
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 1:41:14 GMT -5
I don't believe that this case has much to do with the '2x2' church in general....I think that most people within the church are appalled at this man's actions, his wife's and the lenient sentence. That being said, I cannot vouch for his claim of being abused as a youngster, what I do remember of him is that he was incredibly cruel to animals and other children and would not join in with playing a game, instead he would constantly disrupt it. His mother never allowed them to participate in sports of any sort. I believe at one time his wife tried to separate from him, she was supported by many, but in the end obviously went back to him....one may never know why, however his bribing tactics are such that it could well be she has been threatened. I know many of his relations both in and out of the church and all have said this man, even as a child displayed concerning behaviour, which has obviously continued into his adult life. I think it was you who stated that this case had much to do with the 2x2 church howitis ! Yes I did say that Roselyn using the word DON'T and I posted quite a few posts after that, did I not? The point is this if society keeps on blaming churches, sporting clubs, activity clubs etc for CSA we will make little progress in this area. Look at how this judge treated this case, really think about it....think about what it means for society in general if all cases were given those types of sentences......40 years ago a DV case if it got to court was almost always thrown out and the man often got away scot free....if we dont change how we think as a society and stop playing the blame game these perpetrators will always get light sentences and victims will never report. Don't try and tell me there's less CSA now just because people are aware....do you not ever wonder why most of these cases are historical? Yes we have mandatory reporting why then is it not working? At a hospital not so far from me they do at least one surgery daily on repairing a child from CSA yet these cases are rarely reported, why? The only hope we have as parents and grandparents is to be more vigilant ourselves and let people know when there is concerning behaviour and let individuals know if their behaviour is out of line.
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Post by kittens on Apr 20, 2018 2:07:10 GMT -5
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 2:59:58 GMT -5
Yes I think CSA is still happening today exactly the same as it was years ago. Even though it is talked about now and people are encouraged to report it, the same problems still exist. One the child has been threatened by the perpetrator or feels dirty and ashamed and isn't game to tell anyone straight away. If they do tell someone they still may not be believed, especially if the perpetrator is popular or a smooth talker. Two - It may take 20 years or more for the child to feel strong enough to talk about it. Three - the reporting and court case is a very arduous process and unless you are extremely strong or have a lot of support it may only add to the problems - especially when perpetrators who do get to court are given really light sentences or no sentence at all. This would discourage any child or parent from reporting anything. I'm not a violent person but I think the best way to deal with these monsters is to give them a thorough bashing up and if they get permanently maimed in the process - tough luck. Not a very Christian attitude I suppose but boy it would be satisfying and you would feel like some justice has been served. Luv ya kittens...stay strong xxxx
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Post by Grant on Apr 20, 2018 5:18:00 GMT -5
I think it was you who stated that this case had much to do with the 2x2 church howitis ! Yes I did say that Roselyn using the word DON'T and I posted quite a few posts after that, did I not? The point is this if society keeps on blaming churches, sporting clubs, activity clubs etc for CSA we will make little progress in this area. Look at how this judge treated this case, really think about it....think about what it means for society in general if all cases were given those types of sentences......40 years ago a DV case if it got to court was almost always thrown out and the man often got away scot free....if we dont change how we think as a society and stop playing the blame game these perpetrators will always get light sentences and victims will never report. Don't try and tell me there's less CSA now just because people are aware....do you not ever wonder why most of these cases are historical? Yes we have mandatory reporting why then is it not working? At a hospital not so far from me they do at least one surgery daily on repairing a child from CSA yet these cases are rarely reported, why? The only hope we have as parents and grandparents is to be more vigilant ourselves and let people know when there is concerning behaviour and let individuals know if their behaviour is out of line. I'm many countries and probably all those represented on this board, medical professionals have to report sexual abuse.
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 5:45:23 GMT -5
Yes I did say that Roselyn using the word DON'T and I posted quite a few posts after that, did I not? The point is this if society keeps on blaming churches, sporting clubs, activity clubs etc for CSA we will make little progress in this area. Look at how this judge treated this case, really think about it....think about what it means for society in general if all cases were given those types of sentences......40 years ago a DV case if it got to court was almost always thrown out and the man often got away scot free....if we dont change how we think as a society and stop playing the blame game these perpetrators will always get light sentences and victims will never report. Don't try and tell me there's less CSA now just because people are aware....do you not ever wonder why most of these cases are historical? Yes we have mandatory reporting why then is it not working? At a hospital not so far from me they do at least one surgery daily on repairing a child from CSA yet these cases are rarely reported, why? The only hope we have as parents and grandparents is to be more vigilant ourselves and let people know when there is concerning behaviour and let individuals know if their behaviour is out of line. I'm many countries and probably all those represented on this board, medical professionals have to report sexual abuse. Yes it's called mandatory reporting....so why isn't it working...where are all the recent cases of CSA before the courts...yes there are a few, but not very many and certainly not as many as happen and not as many that are reported...why???
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 9:37:24 GMT -5
howitis , I am well aware of what this man is capable of. But I also know what was said by the then Head Worker of Queensland when this all first came out and what was said about allowing him to go to Convention, surely if you know what he is like you would have to agree that he should not have been allowed to go to meetings or Conventions. Church and upbringing had major roles in this case , Do you really Roselyn? I am not a Head Worker, I am not a family member and I am not one of his victims! You shift the goal posts quite a lot I was discussing reasons why the wife may have stayed with her husband, not conventions or anything else....you are the one that now it seems need to discuss the head worker of Queensland which I would think has got very little to do with the wife making a break from an abusive husband! The F&W make a good scapegoat for everyone.
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 9:40:21 GMT -5
I'm many countries and probably all those represented on this board, medical professionals have to report sexual abuse. Yes it's called mandatory reporting....so why isn't it working...where are all the recent cases of CSA before the courts...yes there are a few, but not very many and certainly not as many as happen and not as many that are reported...why??? Mandated reporters, required because of the profession, only applies to cases observed while they are preforming their functions. Given that the majority of child abuse of all types happens within the confines of the family who is going to make the report?
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Post by snow on Apr 20, 2018 11:20:39 GMT -5
Yes it's called mandatory reporting....so why isn't it working...where are all the recent cases of CSA before the courts...yes there are a few, but not very many and certainly not as many as happen and not as many that are reported...why??? Mandated reporters, required because of the profession, only applies to cases observed while they are preforming their functions. Given that the majority of child abuse of all types happens within the confines of the family who is going to make the report? Does that mean the doctor that is surgically repairing the child doesn't have to report it? What's the use of mandatory reporting then? What more evidence does anyone need? They may not know who did it, but reporting it to the police or social services would be a step towards hopefully finding out who it was that did that to them? The following is how it is in Canada. Some provinces have stricter laws than others. www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/who-has-a-legal-obligation-to-report-child-abuse/
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 11:59:23 GMT -5
Mandated reporters, required because of the profession, only applies to cases observed while they are preforming their functions. Given that the majority of child abuse of all types happens within the confines of the family who is going to make the report? Does that mean the doctor that is surgically repairing the child doesn't have to report it? What's the use of mandatory reporting then? What more evidence does anyone need? They may not know who did it, but reporting it to the police or social services would be a step towards hopefully finding out who it was that did that to them? The following is how it is in Canada. Some provinces have stricter laws than others. www.legalline.ca/legal-answers/who-has-a-legal-obligation-to-report-child-abuse/Sounds like in the case you proposed the doctor was working within his field. In most places it also means that if the doctor is mowing his lawn s/he is not required to report abuse s/he may become aware of. Of course, in more and more places, everyone is a mandatory reporter. From what you posted it seems everyone is required to report: In Ontario, the Child and Family Services Act requires every person, including those who perform professional or official duties with children, to report suspected abuse of a child to the appropriate authorities. A person is required to report each time he or she has grounds to believe that abuse is occurring, even if he or she has already reported a suspicion in the past. To help ensure that people report child abuse, those who do so based on reasonable grounds are protected from liability in the civil courts.Legally some states have words like: If your suspicions of child maltreatment develop outside the confines of your professional obligations, then you are not a mandated reporter. This does not address the ethical position.
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Post by Grant on Apr 20, 2018 14:48:26 GMT -5
Howitis was talking about children being surgically repaired as a result of sexual abuse. These are surgeons who are required to report it not general members of the public.
Why are they not reporting it?
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Post by howitis on Apr 20, 2018 16:07:20 GMT -5
Howitis was talking about children being surgically repaired as a result of sexual abuse. These are surgeons who are required to report it not general members of the public. Why are they not reporting it? Many people believe that to report means the child could well end up worse off. In cases that are reported sometimes nothing happens from there....there are quite a few reasons why this could be happening.....some are: the department they are reported to is not set up to take and respond to such a large number of claims.( in many parts of Australia mandatory reporting is an online affair with the reporter having no contact with real people ever). Once a report is made the system is somehow corrupted by key players.
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 16:33:54 GMT -5
Howitis was talking about children being surgically repaired as a result of sexual abuse. These are surgeons who are required to report it not general members of the public. Why are they not reporting it? From this it seems that others in addition to the surgeon knew of the abuse. If howitis is aware that the children have been abused should we assume it has been reported? Or if the surgeons did not report obvious abuse they too should be reported. What happened when the report was filed?
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2018 16:38:08 GMT -5
Howitis was talking about children being surgically repaired as a result of sexual abuse. These are surgeons who are required to report it not general members of the public. Why are they not reporting it? Many people believe that to report means the child could well end up worse off. In cases that are reported sometimes nothing happens from there....there are quite a few reasons why this could be happening.....some are: the department they are reported to is not set up to take and respond to such a large number of claims.( in many parts of Australia mandatory reporting is an online affair with the reporter having no contact with real people ever). Once a report is made the system is somehow corrupted by key players. That would be a sad situation. In the two states where I have been involved, once the report is files it will be investigated. Perhaps not a well as it could be but someone from child services will show up. Sort of like calling 911 (emergency number). Even if you call back and say your child called someone will be knocking on your door to look into it.
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