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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 16:20:52 GMT -5
I found an actual gem from truth archives - I searched "CSA", and found one link - a sermon by Graham Thompson. Does anyone know about him? This particular sermon was (in my mind) the EXACT right response to CSA. He addressed openly the past failures in this area. He outlined exactly how evil it is (and did so very well). He further acknowledged that the criminal, mental, and spiritual elements need to be addressed by the appropriate people. (criminal - law enforcement, mental - mental health professionals, spiritual - workers). I can some times be a "well of negativity", but I was encouraged by this sermon. Where is Graham Thompson now? I don't know anything about him, but I absolutely loved his response. It was morally sound. Is he in any position of power to affect change and influence? Quotes I appreciated: "But what is really needed is that most profound of all apologies and that is reform of attitude and beginning to acknowledge where there has been error and the committed purpose and earnestness to ensure that where there has been error that there will not be error again." "One thing that needs to be remembered very clearly in this matter of treatment of children is that we are talking about crime, and more than that we are talking about the most heinous kind of crime of all." "The crime of a man against the person of another man is bad. The crime of a man against the person of a woman is worse. The crime of a man against the person of a child is the worst of all. It has the worst disastrously damaging effect and leads to a legacy of challenge that is mostly carried the life-long through." "We must never fall into the error of suggesting that because a person is in the fellowship of the children of God that there are things they are sheltered from in terms of not having penalties applied." "Think about Jesus and His love and His feelings and His purity and how He valued little children because in them He saw the essence of purity and lack of defilement that He loved because it spoke of what He lived himself and that is why there is a respect toward children in Jesus. Think of Jesus who felt so toward little children and how He would feel if there was anything to which His name was attached which could be used in a way in which children could suffer or in which suffering was allowed." Well, shoot, I could just quote the entire article. If you haven't read it, read it. Now imagine if that was the clear and expressed view of the powers-that-be in the ministry when this was brought to light. www.trutharchive.net/graham-thompson---auckland-special-meetings---june-4-2012
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Post by CherieKropp on Nov 15, 2017 16:35:36 GMT -5
Another good sermon by Graham Thompson: Teaching for Doctrine the Commandments of men(New Zealand Worker who Resigned in January 2014)
Here is link to a long 33-page TMB thread about Graham T started in Feb 2014 - should answer your question about him. professing.proboards.com/thread/21747/graham-thompson-overseersand another: Standing for Truth in Australia & New Zealand: professing.proboards.com/thread/22264/standing-truth-australia-nzand: professing.proboards.com/thread/19137/nz-issue
Graham Thompson's Resignation: Masterton. Monday, January 6, 2014 This is to advise you that I will not be going to the Wellington mission field this year, or any other field. This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged. I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie. I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ. Graham Thompson
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 16:44:27 GMT -5
This is going to sound dumb - but I actually felt that "punch to the gut" feeling after reading the brief letter you posted. I don't know if I even have the heart to read the thread - I might eventually (so thanks much for the link).
How silly right? I'm not a "professing member", but I still want the best for those that do (though we may disagree on much). And the best possible thing that could happen is decisive, open and clear steps to protect the children.
If anyone has Graham's contact info, can you pm me? I would dearly love to connect with him (not to bash the fellowship, but to show appreciation for his principle).
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Nov 15, 2017 16:53:30 GMT -5
Graham Thompson's Resignation: Masterton. Monday, January 6, 2014 This is to advise you that I will not be going to the Wellington mission field this year, or any other field. This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged. I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie. I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ. Graham Thompson It is a bit mysterious that, given his expressed positions, he felt his conscience required him to remove himself from a place in which he had evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important. Impatience? Then again, I don't know he's doing now. Is he having a bigger impact in some secret way?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 17:16:46 GMT -5
Sometimes leaving is the strongest statement you can make.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Nov 15, 2017 17:29:24 GMT -5
There is no corrupt and immoral organization in view here. That's the wrong way to look at the decision.
I doubt either you or he made much of an impact by leaving. But by staying he might have had decades in which to exhort people to righteousness and encourage them in a closer walk with God.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 17:39:13 GMT -5
There is no corrupt and immoral organization in view here. That's the wrong way to look at the decision. I doubt either you or he made much of an impact by leaving. But by staying he might have had decades in which to exhort people to righteousness and encourage them in a closer walk with God. If you were a member of a white supremacist group, even if it was very different than it was historically, would you stay because of the potential to encourage other people? For example, the KKK is a very different organization then it was historically. It is rebranded, and is much more benign. However, I wouldn't be a part of it just so I could encourage people. From the sound of it, and reading some of his letters, he tried to make Headway for several years and had no success. He had to follow his conscience. I've talked to enough ex workers with years and years (in some cases decades) in the work to have a decent understanding of the power hierarchy involved. It's not all the roses and butterflies that everyone wants to pretend. And one thing is clear. If you are a subordinate, you keep in your place. You don't cause trouble. If little kids are being molested and you try to bring attention to it, and the powers-that-be would prefer that these matters are kept quiet, you get back in your place and you don't cause trouble.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Nov 15, 2017 18:11:27 GMT -5
No, but I don't think your analogy is worth anything.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 18:13:40 GMT -5
No, but I don't think your analogy is worth anything. I wouldn't expect you to.
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Nov 15, 2017 18:17:48 GMT -5
Basically, among other things, by leaving his place, he voluntarily chose to stop talking about the subject that was such a concern to him. Why do that, if the issue is so important and needs to be addressed?
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Post by openingact34 on Nov 15, 2017 18:29:40 GMT -5
Another side to the story is that a former overseer of Vietnam wrote to Graham 29 September 2010: I thought better of you. You are very very stupid, very unwise and lets face it, you are dumb.This reflects the sentiments of many in the "fellowship".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2017 18:40:15 GMT -5
Another side to the story is that a former overseer of Vietnam wrote to Graham 29 September 2010: I thought better of you. You are very very stupid, very unwise and lets face it, you are dumb.This reflects the sentiments of many in the "fellowship". Serves him right. Got out of his place he did. Imagine, addressing the worst sort of evil against little children. Who does he think he is to question the holy Servants of God?
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Post by grieving on Nov 15, 2017 18:59:55 GMT -5
Basically, among other things, by leaving his place, he voluntarily chose to stop talking about the subject that was such a concern to him. Why do that, if the issue is so important and needs to be addressed? There wasn't one subject.(if you are alluding to csa, then it's worth noting that it had nothing to do with csa that he left the ministry) There was a 10 year period where he would raise issues to the overseers and they wouldn't address them - you'll find a lot of the letters written about them on this board. Graham was advised at one point that he had to do what the overseers said even if it was against his conscience. - you can see all the detail on that too on this Board (transcripts of letters) . Graham stuck to his guns and one or two things got addressed in the end when some of the saints got involved - but Graham was shattered by the way workers wouldn't address things readily (just put in the 'too hard' or 'don't want to know' basket). Another overseer said he was technically correct in his views but his spirit was wrong - same overseer did nothing to correct the agreed thing that was wrong, though ! At one time he was promised the opportunity to speak on one of his main issues (church hierarchy) at a specially organised worker's meeting in NZ, but at the last minute it was decided he couldn't speak (though he wasn't told of this development until afterwards). It's a sensitive topic to a few of the NZ workers still, because the set-up was so clearly unfair - the topic still got discussed at the workers meeting but with Graham totally sidelined from speaking. In the end, after 10 years, he felt he had no option but to leave the ministry on conscience grounds - his faith in the overseers had dropped to zero. A big loss because he was an able man (csa sermon gives an indication of how able) It's coming 4 years since Graham left the ministry. Graham has happily adjusted now to living as a 'saint'. He continues to be great at helping people who are in need. He lives with his faith in Jesus Christ. I hope people don't forget the reason he left, though that may be wishful hoping. It's probably true that many just want the matter forgotten and get back to 'peace in the Kingdom' - flawed logic of course , if wrongs aren't righted. His csa sermon was a cracker. His overseer commented that he shouldn't have made the comment he did about the ministry's response in Victoria to csa. That's a good example of some of Graham's issues with the overseership. It was obvious the response in Victoria was inadequate. But no Australasian overseer would say so (they wanted to stand behind the overseer of Victoria). One of Graham's big concerns was that 'truth must come before unity'. The overseers never seemed to be able to grasp that point. Probably still trying to sort out if it's true or not !
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Post by nathan on Nov 15, 2017 19:20:41 GMT -5
Basically, among other things, by leaving his place, he voluntarily chose to stop talking about the subject that was such a concern to him. Why do that, if the issue is so important and needs to be addressed? There wasn't one subject.(if you are alluding to csa, then it's worth noting that it had nothing to do with csa that he left the ministry) There was a 10 year period where he would raise issues to the overseers and they wouldn't address them - you'll find a lot of the letters written about them on this board. Graham was advised at one point that he had to do what the overseers said even if it was against his conscience. - you can see all the detail on that too on this Board (transcripts of letters) . Graham stuck to his guns and one or two things got addressed in the end when some of the saints got involved - but Graham was shattered by the way workers wouldn't address things readily (just put in the 'too hard' or 'don't want to know' basket). Another overseer said he was technically correct in his views but his spirit was wrong - same overseer did nothing to correct the agreed thing that was wrong, though ! At one time he was promised the opportunity to speak on one of his main issues (church hierarchy) at a specially organised worker's meeting in NZ, but at the last minute it was decided he couldn't speak (though he wasn't told of this development until afterwards). It's a sensitive topic to a few of the NZ workers still, because the set-up was so clearly unfair - the topic still got discussed at the workers meeting but with Graham totally sidelined from speaking. In the end, after 10 years, he felt he had no option but to leave the ministry on conscience grounds - his faith in the overseers had dropped to zero. A big loss because he was an able man (csa sermon gives an indication of how able) It's coming 4 years since Graham left the ministry. Graham has happily adjusted now to living as a 'saint'. He continues to be great at helping people who are in need. He lives with his faith in Jesus Christ. I hope people don't forget the reason he left, though that may be wishful hoping. It's probably true that many just want the matter forgotten and get back to 'peace in the Kingdom' - flawed logic of course , if wrongs aren't righted. His csa sermon was a cracker. His overseer commented that he shouldn't have made the comment he did about the ministry's response in Victoria to csa. That's a good example of some of Graham's issues with the overseership. It was obvious the response in Victoria was inadequate. But no Australasian overseer would say so (they wanted to stand behind the overseer of Victoria). One of Graham's big concerns was that 'truth must come before unity'. The overseers never seemed to be able to grasp that point. Probably still trying to sort out if it's true or not ! Another friend and I tried to warn about CSA in the fellowship and the ministry in 2000-17 but nobody listened or took it very seriously at first... we posted different articles to educate those in the ministry and fellowship about CSA. Many friends and workers read it through the years... Then it was deleted by Proboards a few months ago.
The overseers in USA have taken CSA very seriously these days better than in other countries.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 15, 2017 20:37:29 GMT -5
Grieving Perhaps you could list your concerns with how CSA is presently handled in NZ? Well @review005, I hope it is being handled better than it is being handled in Australia !
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Post by speak on Nov 16, 2017 0:01:29 GMT -5
Graham Thompson's Resignation: Masterton. Monday, January 6, 2014 This is to advise you that I will not be going to the Wellington mission field this year, or any other field. This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged. I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie. I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ. Graham Thompson It is a bit mysterious that, given his expressed positions, he felt his conscience required him to remove himself from a place in which he had evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important. Impatience? Then again, I don't know he's doing now. Is he having a bigger impact in some secret way? There are many in the fellowship who actually feel betrayed by Graham, those of us who enjoyed when he spoke to us, he always had a good message that we shared in with joy but now we feel dumped. I know Graham very well and as children we often played together, Graham despite what others say does attend meetings, i have seen him there with my own eyes. He says he loved the flock but was very quick to dump the flock.
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Post by speak on Nov 16, 2017 0:04:02 GMT -5
Another side to the story is that a former overseer of Vietnam wrote to Graham 29 September 2010: I thought better of you. You are very very stupid, very unwise and lets face it, you are dumb.This reflects the sentiments of many in the "fellowship". Yes we feel dumped.
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 16, 2017 0:26:52 GMT -5
There is no corrupt and immoral organization in view here. That's the wrong way to look at the decision. I doubt either you or he made much of an impact by leaving. But by staying he might have had decades in which to exhort people to righteousness and encourage them in a closer walk with God. How can you, -not being a worker yourself, -think that you know better than he, who is a worker, that there is "no corrupt and immoral organization in view here?"
Your sphere of knowledge of what is going on is smaller than his therefore you are as apt to know the what may be going on elsewhere. He, as a worker, has a much bigger picture of what may be happening that yourself. Even if YOU yourself don't know or any problems with CSA in your area, - that doesn't mean there is none.
What good would it do for him to stay, no matter how many "decades" he had if no one was listening to him?
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Post by dmmichgood on Nov 16, 2017 0:32:27 GMT -5
Basically, among other things, by leaving his place, he voluntarily chose to stop talking about the subject that was such a concern to him. Why do that, if the issue is so important and needs to be addressed? Maybe he IS addressing the problem from a different place, -a place where he is being listened to.
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Post by emy on Nov 16, 2017 0:48:32 GMT -5
His Spirit was wrong? What sort of spirit is he supposed to have when it comes to little children being victimized?? Anything other than disgusted contempt seems like it is the wrong Spirit to me. Wrong spirit. Sounds about right. Maybe you missed this statement 'grieving' made? There wasn't one subject.(if you are alluding to csa, then it's worth noting that it had nothing to do with csa that he left the ministry)
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 16, 2017 1:00:00 GMT -5
It is a bit mysterious that, given his expressed positions, he felt his conscience required him to remove himself from a place in which he had evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important. Impatience? Then again, I don't know he's doing now. Is he having a bigger impact in some secret way? There are many in the fellowship who actually feel betrayed by Graham, those of us who enjoyed when he spoke to us, he always had a good message that we shared in with joy but now we feel dumped. I know Graham very well and as children we often played together, Graham despite what others say does attend meetings, i have seen him there with my own eyes. He says he loved the flock but was very quick to dump the flock. speak, how do you think the women/men who were sexually abused feel ? Maybe you feel dumped because you had put too much emphasis on a Worker instead of God ?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2017 1:01:47 GMT -5
It is a bit mysterious that, given his expressed positions, he felt his conscience required him to remove himself from a place in which he had evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important. Impatience? Then again, I don't know he's doing now. Is he having a bigger impact in some secret way? There are many in the fellowship who actually feel betrayed by Graham, those of us who enjoyed when he spoke to us, he always had a good message that we shared in with joy but now we feel dumped. I know Graham very well and as children we often played together, Graham despite what others say does attend meetings, i have seen him there with my own eyes. He says he loved the flock but was very quick to dump the flock. How can he dump the flock and still be part of the flock? Who is the shepherd of this flock?
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Post by speak on Nov 16, 2017 1:07:45 GMT -5
There are many in the fellowship who actually feel betrayed by Graham, those of us who enjoyed when he spoke to us, he always had a good message that we shared in with joy but now we feel dumped. I know Graham very well and as children we often played together, Graham despite what others say does attend meetings, i have seen him there with my own eyes. He says he loved the flock but was very quick to dump the flock. speak , how do you think the women/men who were sexually abused feel ? Maybe you feel dumped because you had put too much emphasis on a Worker instead of God ? Ha what would you know? as far as you are concerned there is no God but very quick to use Him when it suits you
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Post by speak on Nov 16, 2017 1:08:12 GMT -5
There are many in the fellowship who actually feel betrayed by Graham, those of us who enjoyed when he spoke to us, he always had a good message that we shared in with joy but now we feel dumped. I know Graham very well and as children we often played together, Graham despite what others say does attend meetings, i have seen him there with my own eyes. He says he loved the flock but was very quick to dump the flock. How can he dump the flock and still be part of the flock? Who is the shepherd of this flock? sigh
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Post by emy on Nov 16, 2017 1:18:08 GMT -5
Maybe you missed this statement 'grieving' made? There wasn't one subject.(if you are alluding to csa, then it's worth noting that it had nothing to do with csa that he left the ministry)Right you are emy - I missed that - thanks (I know you can't read tone in text, but no sarcasm intended) Pure speculation pin my part, but it could have been one of the several issues that he was frustrated with? Yes, he was concerned, obviously, but I think he wrote that it was not that issue, but the non-responsiveness of overseers to several issues that precipitated his decision.
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Post by Roselyn T on Nov 16, 2017 2:27:36 GMT -5
speak , how do you think the women/men who were sexually abused feel ? Maybe you feel dumped because you had put too much emphasis on a Worker instead of God ? Ha what would you know? as far as you are concerned there is no God but very quick to use Him when it suits you Well I think we all know how those that have been abused would feel. I was responding to YOU saying YOU felt dumped speak, my belief has nothing to do with it If you like I can edit it to "your God" !
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Post by fixit on Nov 16, 2017 5:24:12 GMT -5
Graham Thompson's Resignation: Masterton. Monday, January 6, 2014 This is to advise you that I will not be going to the Wellington mission field this year, or any other field. This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged. I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie. I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ. Graham Thompson It is a bit mysterious that, given his expressed positions, he felt his conscience required him to remove himself from a place in which he had evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important. Impatience? Then again, I don't know he's doing now. Is he having a bigger impact in some secret way? Graham's motive is well expressed in this quote: I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What are the evident opportunities to address the issues he felt were important?
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Post by fixit on Nov 16, 2017 5:29:16 GMT -5
There is no corrupt and immoral organization in view here. That's the wrong way to look at the decision. I doubt either you or he made much of an impact by leaving. But by staying he might have had decades in which to exhort people to righteousness and encourage them in a closer walk with God. Graham's concerns were around the behavior of the overseers. There was no evidence that they were interested in what he had to say.
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