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Post by grieving on Jul 22, 2014 14:05:10 GMT -5
In a few conversations over the past few months, I have heard that Graham Thompson left the work on account of falling out with NZ’s overseer Alan Richardson.
That is really missing the point entirely of why Graham felt he had to step down from the ministry. In his resignation letter he referred to standing down on conscience grounds and wrote as follows
“This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged.
I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
It is over 6 months now since Graham left the ministry, and I feel that the reason he took this step needs restating, as the overriding issue that caused his departure still stands unaddressed today.
During the time Graham was in the ministry, issues would arise and decisions made that were not being correctly handled and Graham would raise these matters with the different overseers he served under (in Australia and NZ). The issues themselves, while very serious, were not the cause of Graham’s departure from the work. The reason was the overseers’ refusal or reluctance to address the issues and to put them right. Interestingly, it was made clear to Graham by one of his overseers that it was unacceptable for Graham not to accept the overseers’ rulings (regardless of how wrong their rulings were!). It became increasingly obvious that the overseers were using their position in the fellowship to make decisions that did not have the upholding of ‘right’ and ‘truth’, as their primary motivation.
I feel grieved when I think of where our church currently stands, and that an able man with principles felt he could not, with a clear conscience, continue in our ministry..
My reasons for writing this post are two fold. 1) To remind people, what Graham Thompson’s leaving the work was about. It was not due to a clash of personalities, but a decision based on conscience.. 2) I have not heard or seen any indication that the overseers have learned any lessons so far from Graham’s leaving, or that they have made any commitments to act differently in future. Should anything happen in our state or country that is clearly wrong or harmful to our fellowship, and we do not see any meaningful endeavour by the overseers to correct this wrong, then we should not close our eyes and minds to what we witness. It may well become the ‘light-bulb’ moment when we understand with greater clarity and concern, what Graham has been persistently highlighting for the past 10 years.
These are sad days for our church and I intend to make similar reminders to this Board from time to time in future, to ensure that the spiritual error Graham has identified is not forgotten.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 22, 2014 16:17:19 GMT -5
In a few conversations over the past few months, I have heard that Graham Thompson left the work on account of falling out with NZ’s overseer Alan Richardson. That is really missing the point entirely of why Graham felt he had to step down from the ministry. In his resignation letter he referred to standing down on conscience grounds and wrote as follows “This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged.
I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
It is over 6 months now since Graham left the ministry, and I feel that the reason he took this step needs restating, as the overriding issue that caused his departure still stands unaddressed today. During the time Graham was in the ministry, issues would arise and decisions made that were not being correctly handled and Graham would raise these matters with the different overseers he served under (in Australia and NZ). The issues themselves, while very serious, were not the cause of Graham’s departure from the work. The reason was the overseers’ refusal or reluctance to address the issues and to put them right. Interestingly, it was made clear to Graham by one of his overseers that it was unacceptable for Graham not to accept the overseers’ rulings (regardless of how wrong their rulings were!). It became increasingly obvious that the overseers were using their position in the fellowship to make decisions that did not have the upholding of ‘right’ and ‘truth’, as their primary motivation. I feel grieved when I think of where our church currently stands, and that an able man with principles felt he could not, with a clear conscience, continue in our ministry.. My reasons for writing this post are two fold. 1) To remind people, what Graham Thompson’s leaving the work was about. It was not due to a clash of personalities, but a decision based on conscience.. 2) I have not heard or seen any indication that the overseers have learned any lessons so far from Graham’s leaving, or that they have made any commitments to act differently in future. Should anything happen in our state or country that is clearly wrong or harmful to our fellowship, and we do not see any meaningful endeavour by the overseers to correct this wrong, then we should not close our eyes and minds to what we witness. It may well become the ‘light-bulb’ moment when we understand with greater clarity and concern, what Graham has been persistently highlighting for the past 10 years. These are sad days for our church and I intend to make similar reminders to this Board from time to time in future, to ensure that the spiritual error Graham has identified is not forgotten. I think there has to be humility to 'learn a lesson' in this situation. Unfortunately most overseers I know have very little of that. Can't see anything changing anytime soon...... Sadly.
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Post by fixit on Jul 22, 2014 16:20:12 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 18:49:43 GMT -5
I feel lots of goodwill towards Graham Thompson for a number of reasons.
Is anyone here able to update us on how he is getting on personally since leaving the work?
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Post by stevnz on Jul 22, 2014 20:14:19 GMT -5
I feel lots of goodwill towards Graham Thompson for a number of reasons. Is anyone here able to update us on how he is getting on personally since leaving the work? Graham has a job based in Christchurch and continues to attend the meetings there. He is well. Alan Richardson has noted that he is not pleased about the posts on TMB of correspondence to/from Graham Thompson. Several times Graham warned Alan very clearly that if the issues he had raised weren't dealt with properly he would take them to the whole church. As Luke 12:3 says What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs. The issues weren't dealt with so I posted the documents here so concerned people could form their own opinion. Many people continue to be deeply disturbed by the Overseer group acting as rulers rather than as feeders.
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Jul 22, 2014 20:58:41 GMT -5
Remove the heresies first. Exclusivism=ONE. Celibicy =TWO. ! Corinthians,Ch 9 V 5-6 Preacher only ministry=THREE. Ephesians Ch 4,v 11-12,Timothy Ch,3 Judgement of others and individuals(often ostracising,casting OUT),and gossiping about them,again being judgemental.=FOUR. Only way teaching. =FIVE Demanding things that only pertain to ancient some present Middle Eastern cultural,religious,traditions,of followers,EG,Dress,hair,moderate jewellery,forms of media (yet same can be read in news/magazine print),allowing the unbiblical celibate preachers only lot to judge you on the outward appearence as acceptable for the 2x2s kingdom (that is how they know they control your mind and life). = SIXTH. Covering up justices for victims of 2x2s judgements and brother/sister sexual crimes especially against little children and the youth.=SEVENTH REMEMBER to join in and and openly commune,worship with,serve with,discuss scripture openly with,dont hide the Grace Gods gift to you share it openly allowing others to share with you what Gods Grace and Hope means in their life and service to Him. Graham has served a doctorine horribly closed,judgemental and restricted,may the Holy Spirit free And lead him into a path where his zeal to serve God is not lost,there is a great cry out there for answers that the christians all over the world from many persuasions need HELP and lots of it,just see the pursecuted refuges and church,or the homeless,abused,poor,sick,hurting,child sex victims (he most likely knows,or of, many of those),deserted mums and kids. I recomend this popular very ecumenial hymn especially note the lyrics,listen absorb the message that so many sing throughout the christian churches today, Stuart Townend. How great the Fathers love for us.(with shown lyrics)
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Jul 22, 2014 21:38:47 GMT -5
To Grieving,Graham needs a lot of encouraging so his desire ti serve is not wasted now he is free. Also Timothy 5 verse 19. (lets go biblical)Do not listen to an accusationagainst an elder unless it is brought by two or more witnesses (two or more was acceptable to maintain a charge in Middle East law,witness of one had to be confirmed by another or no case)..Rebuke publicallt all those who commit sins,so that the rest may be afraid....In the presence of God and of Jesus Christ and of the Holy Angels,I solomnly call upon you to obey these instructions without showing any PREJUDICE or FAVOUR to any in anything you do. Be in no hurry to lay hands on people to dedicate them to the Lords service. Take no part in the sins of others;keep yourself pure....Hi,Grieving, they rush them into an unhealthy celibate demand,do they really want to know why anyone would choose the unbiblical unatural ministry,"not" discounting anyone who felt it was their lot,but as with any celibate priesthood/ministry what a place to hid from your struggles with sexuality,or your mental disorder of paedophilia,uncurable ,sometimes with correct counselling,pastoring and medication controllable...IT IS A LIFETIME AFFLICTION.I have experienced old men and occassional women,mid 80s+,still molesting and fondling and drooling over little kids at every chance possible,many looked on as pillars of their community,are overseers blind,dumb,ignorant?Yet will allow $1000s a day be spent on court cases,not to protect a victim,but,protect the criminal,their own and the Secret Sects BUTTS. After allowing, often it seems knowing, the the perpetrators,who promise to be good girls and boys,into a vocation that places them amongst the vulnerable children,teens and adults.The only way? Like heck?
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Post by withlove on Jul 23, 2014 8:15:04 GMT -5
I feel lots of goodwill towards Graham Thompson for a number of reasons. Is anyone here able to update us on how he is getting on personally since leaving the work? Graham has a job based in Christchurch and continues to attend the meetings there. He is well. Alan Richardson has noted that he is not pleased about the posts on TMB of correspondence to/from Graham Thompson. Several times Graham warned Alan very clearly that if the issues he had raised weren't dealt with properly he would take them to the whole church. As Luke 12:3 says What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs. The issues weren't dealt with so I posted the documents here so concerned people could form their own opinion. Many people continue to be deeply disturbed by the Overseer group acting as rulers rather than as feeders. Hope he knows what he did is helping people even if it didn't affect change at the top right away. In the middle of being devastated to hear all the bad stuff about my church and just feeling hopeless b/c of the wolves among the sheep, I started praying hard that some overseers would do just what Graham did. I prayed especially before special meetings and convention that there would be something said to show that change was happening, and so far the opposite has happened-- warnings from the platform about doubting, etc., with no sympathy for what they must know the people are feeling. I can't blame any worker who isn't a top dog for not speaking up--that would be extremely hard to do. It feels impossible for me, and I'm not homeless and depending on my life as a minister to continue. But the overseers I have more expectation of...surely they must feel more compelled? So to hear about Graham sticking his neck out for the people is sosowonderful and I'm so full of thanks for him. God will reward.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2014 16:39:56 GMT -5
It's very SAD and a great lost that Gram T. left the work due to the overseer didn't know how to deal with CSA issue. That is not correct Nathan. I understand that Graham Thompson has decided that he can no longer remain a member of the ministry in good conscience due to the overseers' actions as rulers and in contradiction to the bible teachings. For many years he has drawn attention to numerous problems in the eldership (overseers) but has been faced with hostility, lack of interest and lack of change. His decision is not related to CSA matters. Graham's letter to Alan Richardson says [Note: 'eldership of the ministry' means 'overseers'] Masterton.
Monday, January 6
This is to advise you that I will not be going to the Wellington mission field this year, or any other field.
This is a conscience decision, based on principle. What I have observed and experienced in the eldership of the ministry over the years can not be reconciled with Scripture and is not according to Christ, and I can not participate in it or support it until this iniquity is purged.
I have waited until the present to take this step in the expectation that some steps would be taken to address this issue. That being not the case, I am left with no option as I can not support the lie.
I love the Gospel, the Flock, and I love our Lord Jesus. There is no other reason which would cause me to take this step; I do this solely because of the errors in the eldership which mean that I can not support this and consider myself a faithful servant of God and follower of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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colac
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Post by colac on Jul 23, 2014 17:47:25 GMT -5
As my dear late Dad said once,"I must go one day and appologise to my Methodist and other Godly friends,this group has seperated me from a life of wonderfull fellowship with my local christian neighbours." He was the horrified Dad who heard a worker say in court,as a young son wanted non combattent call up for compulsery service,"I AM A MINISTER FOR THE CHRISTIAN ASSEMBLIES". The son had just explained us as a nameless home based fellowship. The old preacher when challenged said,"YA GOTTA TELL EM SUMTHUN:"Then to find out then it was a Reg'd name,at that time,Christian Assemblies of Victoria, later ,,'of Australia. So years of claiming to his friends why no name-went up in smoke,Dad knew he had been lying by default.
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Post by fixit on Jul 23, 2014 17:59:50 GMT -5
As my dear late Dad said once,"I must go one day and appologise to my Methodist and other Godly friends,this group has seperated me from a life of wonderfull fellowship with my local christian neighbours." He was the horrified Dad who heard a worker say in court,as a young son wanted non combattent call up for compulsery service,"I AM A MINISTER FOR THE CHRISTIAN ASSEMBLIES". The son had just explained us as a nameless home based fellowship. The old preacher when challenged said,"YA GOTTA TELL EM SUMTHUN:"Then to find out then it was a Reg'd name,at that time,Christian Assemblies of Victoria, later ,,'of Australia. So years of claiming to his friends why no name-went up in smoke,Dad knew he had been lying by default. Yes, there's a discrepancy between what workers claim to outsiders and what they teach to insiders. If they tell authorities they are a minister for Christian Conventions they should say the same to innies.
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Post by magpies on Jul 23, 2014 22:08:01 GMT -5
How about getting on the computor and listening to=== Stuart Townend ....How deep the Fathers love for us.( Lyrics,now sung internationally,2x2s miss a lot of gospel by song) Also any === Chris Tomlin (Inspired by the story) ==anyone he sings' Also=== Cornerstone Hillsong === "WOW",they are a bit flashy,but the lyrics,sung in so many churches today.Judge the lyrics not as a 2x2 the singers?
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abby
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Post by abby on Jul 24, 2014 14:41:55 GMT -5
I feel lots of goodwill towards Graham Thompson for a number of reasons. Is anyone here able to update us on how he is getting on personally since leaving the work?
I have been thinking of Graham recently too. He appears to have adapted well to his change in lifestyle. He has the use of a small flat to live in and look after, while the aged owner is in care and unable to be at home.
One thing that stands out about Graham is his care for people – of course he always had that, but it has continued on in his change of role. If people need comfort Graham will still respond, he still has inner resources to do that.
As regards leaving the work, Graham has not proactively talked to people about the reasons for his doing so. However, if people approach him and ask him ‘why’, he has been totally open about the facts and will answer questions candidly. A reasonable number have asked him in the past 6 months , and a trickle continue to do so.
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jscc1
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Post by jscc1 on Jul 24, 2014 22:18:57 GMT -5
Provences,counties,states,prefectures,countries all 2x2s leaderships past/present were/ are DICTATORS!!!,if you cross them,Question theologicaly,make a bad mistake(normally forgivable elsewhere),complain or make a noise about sexual inc CSA and other crimes and attached lies,deceptions,etc,you are cast out,means you face "hell" eternat death sentence, for not pleasing the dictator and his henchmen and women.Hitler and others put many to death for non-compliance to their regimes. So sending someone out to a lost eternity by force in attitude towards the targets or their common habit since inception "ostracise",as Irvine did (paper record Ireland),because he would not agree to say John Wesely would be burning in "hell". Dictatorship?.Is that a correct discription? Other Christians non 2x2s also under these dictators and followers can only and feel "all" are facing death,lost eternity in "hell".Please pray for you and loved ones a quick release from the mind control as one discribed, 2x2 is not a fellowship but a "Followship" of a dictatorship.
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Post by whyisitso on Jul 25, 2014 4:25:17 GMT -5
[/quote]nathan said: Many overseers, workers, and the friends have taken CSA seriously these days. They realized the scars, emotion, mentally, and physically last many years to come, it doesn't end over a year or two, the victims can get over it easily, as many people believe. They need professional help to deal with all the scars, and pains of CSA to move on with life. A few friends, some workers and myself have tried to warn about CSA to the workers and the friends 12 yrs ago on my message board. [/quote]
I actually don't believe there's a whole lot that take it seriously and the ones that would are to scared to upset the apple cart. I think the reason that some action has been taken is fear of exposure of not doing something. I think they are quietly pooping themselves because of venues like TMB that outs this kind of stuff so they have to be seen to be doing something. I think if we weren't in the digital age, the majority would still continue to let it go on, blame the victim etc etc. & no one would be any the wiser. I think the pedofile workers would just get moved somewhere else to mess up someone else's life.
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Post by mdm on Jul 25, 2014 9:45:09 GMT -5
Many overseers, workers, and the friends have taken CSA seriously these days. They realized the scars, emotion, mentally, and physically last many years to come, it doesn't end over a year or two, the victims can get over it easily, as many people believe. They need professional help to deal with all the scars, and pains of CSA to move on with life. A few friends, some workers and myself have tried to warn about CSA to the workers and the friends 12 yrs ago on my message board.
It's very SAD and a great lost that Gram T. left the work due to the overseer didn't know how to deal with CSA issue. Gram T. could still be in the work by keep on encouraging the workers and overseers all over the world heading in the right direction with CSA within the ministry and fellowship. Gram T. still can be helpful by writing the horrible crime of CSA and encourage those in the fellowship to speak out and stand up speaking against and get rid off CSA from the world. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/52/children-sexual-abuse-2x2-fellowship Workers and overseers did not need to know what kind of damage CSA causes. They just needed to take sexual immorality AND abuse seriously and not leave the immoral and abusers in the work. Ignorance in the area of trauma is no excuse for not dealing with immorality and abuse. An overseer told us that "they used to think that the problem was in the child or the woman," so the remedy was just to move the offending worker away from the problem child or woman. The offender was excused from any responsibility himself! This was of course in the days before CSA laws and mandatory reporting laws. Now they cannot feign ignorance any more. But, when it comes to adult sexual abuse and immorality, the victim is still likely to be blamed, and the offender moved to a different area.
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Post by fixit on Jul 25, 2014 15:20:19 GMT -5
Workers and overseers did not need to know what kind of damage CSA causes. They just needed to take sexual immorality AND abuse seriously and not leave the immoral and abusers in the work. Ignorance in the area of trauma is no excuse for not dealing with immorality and abuse. An overseer told us that "they used to think that the problem was in the child or the woman," so the remedy was just to move the offending worker away from the problem child or woman. The offender was excused from any responsibility himself! This was of course in the days before CSA laws and mandatory reporting laws. Now they cannot feign ignorance any more. But, when it comes to adult sexual abuse and immorality, the victim is still likely to be blamed, and the offender moved to a different area. The following from Dale Gardiner's letters helps to explain the tolerance of sexual immorality among workers:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 21:06:47 GMT -5
I have been thinking of Graham recently too. He appears to have adapted well to his change in lifestyle. He has the use of a small flat to live in and look after, while the aged owner is in care and unable to be at home.
One thing that stands out about Graham is his care for people – of course he always had that, but it has continued on in his change of role. If people need comfort Graham will still respond, he still has inner resources to do that.
As regards leaving the work, Graham has not proactively talked to people about the reasons for his doing so. However, if people approach him and ask him ‘why’, he has been totally open about the facts and will answer questions candidly. A reasonable number have asked him in the past 6 months , and a trickle continue to do so.
Thanks Abby and StevNZ for your updates on Graham. Things can’t have been easy for Graham in the last 10 years in the work when he must have begun to feel more and more of an outsider within the worker ranks. Yet his ability to relate with the friends and care for them was always very easy to see. Based on what you say, I am glad that that trait is still evident in the place he now fills amongst the friends. I always wished privately that Graham and Alan would reconcile because • Graham did preach a gospel that was centred on Jesus Christ and the ministry is in great need of such people. • Graham had a caring manner when dealing with individuals and the ministry needs people like that • He clearly also cared for the health of the broader church • Graham was prepared to raise issues with overseers when things weren’t as they should be. As others mentioned in the earlier threads, I too am very concerned about the road the overseers may travel from here, now that there is no obvious person within the workers ranks to question their actions when that is necessary. If Graham is no longer prepared to speak out proactively, then an important voice within the church has become silenced with no one (that I know of) currently willing and capable of replacing it. I do sincerely wish the overseers well but I have deep concerns as I look ahead. Even the best of men are human and as things stand, if they make wrong decisions within the church, there is no one of significance who will raise a warning.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 25, 2014 23:10:43 GMT -5
Many overseers, workers, and the friends have taken CSA seriously these days. They realized the scars, emotion, mentally, and physically last many years to come, it doesn't end over a year or two, the victims can get over it easily, as many people believe. They need professional help to deal with all the scars, and pains of CSA to move on with life. A few friends, some workers and myself have tried to warn about CSA to the workers and the friends 12 yrs ago on my message board.
It's very SAD and a great lost that Gram T. left the work due to the overseer didn't know how to deal with CSA issue. Gram T. could still be in the work by keep on encouraging the workers and overseers all over the world heading in the right direction with CSA within the ministry and fellowship. Gram T. still can be helpful by writing the horrible crime of CSA and encourage those in the fellowship to speak out and stand up speaking against and get rid off CSA from the world. 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/52/children-sexual-abuse-2x2-fellowship Workers and overseers did not need to know what kind of damage CSA causes. They just needed to take sexual immorality AND abuse seriously and not leave the immoral and abusers in the work. Ignorance in the area of trauma is no excuse for not dealing with immorality and abuse. An overseer told us that "they used to think that the problem was in the child or the woman," so the remedy was just to move the offending worker away from the problem child or woman. The offender was excused from any responsibility himself! This was of course in the days before CSA laws and mandatory reporting laws. Now they cannot feign ignorance any more. But, when it comes to adult sexual abuse and immorality, the victim is still likely to be blamed, and the offender moved to a different area. That was an interesting comment by the overseer!
Where did that belief come from, I wonder, "that the problem was in the child or the woman," ?
Probably from from the bible where Eve is blamed for Adam's downfall because she was supposed to have offered him the "apple" called sex!
By making Eve the culprit for any sexual problem thereafter, Adam could be exonerated of any sexual guilt.
Women were at fault when they were raped, "shouldn't have been out alone at the time in the night" "Shouldn't have been in that part of town", "shouldn't have been dressed like that," "Shouldn't go where men went, bar, bowling alley, pool hall, etc. etc."
I don't know how they could attempt to blame the child.
Maybe because people were supposed to be born "in sin," and the child by just being still a child, was the "sinful" one and thus tempting the poor worker?"
Who knows?
I do know all that horror in religion is precisely why I could no longer be any part of any religion.
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Post by mdm on Jul 27, 2014 10:04:03 GMT -5
Workers and overseers did not need to know what kind of damage CSA causes. They just needed to take sexual immorality AND abuse seriously and not leave the immoral and abusers in the work. Ignorance in the area of trauma is no excuse for not dealing with immorality and abuse. An overseer told us that "they used to think that the problem was in the child or the woman," so the remedy was just to move the offending worker away from the problem child or woman. The offender was excused from any responsibility himself! This was of course in the days before CSA laws and mandatory reporting laws. Now they cannot feign ignorance any more. But, when it comes to adult sexual abuse and immorality, the victim is still likely to be blamed, and the offender moved to a different area. That was an interesting comment by the overseer!
Where did that belief come from, I wonder, "that the problem was in the child or the woman," ?
Probably from from the bible where Eve is blamed for Adam's downfall because she was supposed to have offered him the "apple" called sex!
By making Eve the culprit for any sexual problem thereafter, Adam could be exonerated of any sexual guilt.
Women were at fault when they were raped, "shouldn't have been out alone at the time in the night" "Shouldn't have been in that part of town", "shouldn't have been dressed like that," "Shouldn't go where men went, bar, bowling alley, pool hall, etc. etc."
I don't know how they could attempt to blame the child.
Maybe because people were supposed to be born "in sin," and the child by just being still a child, was the "sinful" one and thus tempting the poor worker?"
Who knows?
I do know all that horror in religion is precisely why I could no longer be any part of any religion.
I am not convinced that this issue within the church as an organization has to do with religion as much as with the hierarchical nature of an organization, where the upper "caste" has all the power, and there is a lack of transparency and accountability. Just look at the US Army record of dealing with sexual abuse within its ranks. Maybe that's why Jesus warned his followers against setting up a hierarchy.
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Post by snow on Jul 27, 2014 11:23:37 GMT -5
That was an interesting comment by the overseer!
Where did that belief come from, I wonder, "that the problem was in the child or the woman," ?
Probably from from the bible where Eve is blamed for Adam's downfall because she was supposed to have offered him the "apple" called sex!
By making Eve the culprit for any sexual problem thereafter, Adam could be exonerated of any sexual guilt.
Women were at fault when they were raped, "shouldn't have been out alone at the time in the night" "Shouldn't have been in that part of town", "shouldn't have been dressed like that," "Shouldn't go where men went, bar, bowling alley, pool hall, etc. etc."
I don't know how they could attempt to blame the child.
Maybe because people were supposed to be born "in sin," and the child by just being still a child, was the "sinful" one and thus tempting the poor worker?"
Who knows?
I do know all that horror in religion is precisely why I could no longer be any part of any religion.
I am not convinced that this issue within the church as an organization has to do with religion as much as with the hierarchical nature of an organization, where the upper "caste" has all the power, and there is a lack of transparency and accountability. Just look at the US Army record of dealing with sexual abuse within its ranks. Maybe that's why Jesus warned his followers against setting up a hierarchy. The belief that women are to be submissive to man has very far reaching and subtle consequences. It is so indelibly branded into the male psyche from years of this being a religious belief that we don't even conscious of it sometimes. Women breaking into groups that used to be predominately male will likely find a gender bias. What we have been taught to believe will inevitably trickle down into every aspect of life whether we are conscious of it or not. That is why I have always said those teachings in the Bible or other sacred books are so dangerous for the well being of women. It is so ingrained in our minds that we aren't even aware of the degree we believe it on some level. Women as well as men.
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Post by mdm on Jul 28, 2014 7:12:26 GMT -5
I am not convinced that this issue within the church as an organization has to do with religion as much as with the hierarchical nature of an organization, where the upper "caste" has all the power, and there is a lack of transparency and accountability. Just look at the US Army record of dealing with sexual abuse within its ranks. Maybe that's why Jesus warned his followers against setting up a hierarchy. The belief that women are to be submissive to man has very far reaching and subtle consequences. It is so indelibly branded into the male psyche from years of this being a religious belief that we don't even conscious of it sometimes. Women breaking into groups that used to be predominately male will likely find a gender bias. What we have been taught to believe will inevitably trickle down into every aspect of life whether we are conscious of it or not. That is why I have always said those teachings in the Bible or other sacred books are so dangerous for the well being of women. It is so ingrained in our minds that we aren't even aware of the degree we believe it on some level. Women as well as men. My kids' bio families happen to belong to a non Judeo-Christian culture that has no sacred writings AND is extremely repressive toward their women, while ignoring the laws and traditions of the surrounding Judeo-Christian culture. I sure am glad I live and am raising my daughter in a country and culture with Judeo-Christian traditions, not in say India or Egypt or South Africa or in my kids' bio families' culture. That speaks for itself. Now, if I could chose a better planet, for the lack of a more egalitarian culture on this one, I would. As it is, I am thankful for the Judeo-Christian culture I live in and I cannot but credit the legacy of its "sacred books" for the freedom we enjoy here.
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 10:00:29 GMT -5
The belief that women are to be submissive to man has very far reaching and subtle consequences. It is so indelibly branded into the male psyche from years of this being a religious belief that we don't even conscious of it sometimes. Women breaking into groups that used to be predominately male will likely find a gender bias. What we have been taught to believe will inevitably trickle down into every aspect of life whether we are conscious of it or not. That is why I have always said those teachings in the Bible or other sacred books are so dangerous for the well being of women. It is so ingrained in our minds that we aren't even aware of the degree we believe it on some level. Women as well as men. My kids' bio families happen to belong to a non Judeo-Christian culture that has no sacred writings AND is extremely repressive toward their women, while ignoring the laws and traditions of the surrounding Judeo-Christian culture. I sure am glad I live and am raising my daughter in a country and culture with Judeo-Christian traditions, not in say India or Egypt or South Africa or in my kids' bio families' culture. That speaks for itself. Now, if I could chose a better planet, for the lack of a more egalitarian culture on this one, I would. As it is, I am thankful for the Judeo-Christian culture I live in and I cannot but credit the legacy of its "sacred books" for the freedom we enjoy here. That's pretty much it. We cannot give credit to the sacred books for the freedom we have. Most of South America is a form of Christianity yet we see women's rights trampled on. So we know that just because a country is labeled Judeo-Christian it doesn't assure women of freedoms. India is another place where women have few rights, once again based on religious beliefs. North America is secular with Jews and Christians living among all the rest. We are not a Christian Nation and thank goodness for that. Those who want to bring back the Bible to rule are a scary bunch imo. The Golden Rule sure, the Bible, please no. At least not the way some of the ones like Pat Robertson interprets it.
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Post by mdm on Jul 28, 2014 11:00:23 GMT -5
My kids' bio families happen to belong to a non Judeo-Christian culture that has no sacred writings AND is extremely repressive toward their women, while ignoring the laws and traditions of the surrounding Judeo-Christian culture. I sure am glad I live and am raising my daughter in a country and culture with Judeo-Christian traditions, not in say India or Egypt or South Africa or in my kids' bio families' culture. That speaks for itself. Now, if I could chose a better planet, for the lack of a more egalitarian culture on this one, I would. As it is, I am thankful for the Judeo-Christian culture I live in and I cannot but credit the legacy of its "sacred books" for the freedom we enjoy here. That's pretty much it. We cannot give credit to the sacred books for the freedom we have. Most of South America is a form of Christianity yet we see women's rights trampled on. So we know that just because a country is labeled Judeo-Christian it doesn't assure women of freedoms. India is another place where women have few rights, once again based on religious beliefs. North America is secular with Jews and Christians living among all the rest. We are not a Christian Nation and thank goodness for that. Those who want to bring back the Bible to rule are a scary bunch imo. The Golden Rule sure, the Bible, please no. At least not the way some of the ones like Pat Robertson interprets it. Oh, no, I am not talking about "bringing back the Bible." I was just saying that women tend to do better in cultures that are traditionally Judeo-Christian than in those that are not, and that I feel lucky to happen to live in such a culture and to be raising my daughter in it. There are and will be inequality and abuse everywhere, but there is a difference in degree and scope. (I mentioned India, Egypt and South Africa because sexual assault on women there is rampant and justice difficult to obtain.)
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 11:07:38 GMT -5
That's pretty much it. We cannot give credit to the sacred books for the freedom we have. Most of South America is a form of Christianity yet we see women's rights trampled on. So we know that just because a country is labeled Judeo-Christian it doesn't assure women of freedoms. India is another place where women have few rights, once again based on religious beliefs. North America is secular with Jews and Christians living among all the rest. We are not a Christian Nation and thank goodness for that. Those who want to bring back the Bible to rule are a scary bunch imo. The Golden Rule sure, the Bible, please no. At least not the way some of the ones like Pat Robertson interprets it. Oh, no, I am not talking about "bringing back the Bible." I was just saying that women tend to do better in cultures that are traditionally Judeo-Christian than in those that are not, and that I feel lucky to happen to live in such a culture and to be raising my daughter in it. There are and will be inequality and abuse everywhere, but there is a difference in degree and scope. (I mentioned India, Egypt and South Africa because sexual assault on women there is rampant and justice difficult to obtain.) Ok, I guess we see the societies in a different light. I see them as secular, not Judeo-Christian. Either way, I agree, I am glad I raised my daughter in this society and not some of the ones mentioned.
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Post by mdm on Jul 28, 2014 14:11:05 GMT -5
Oh, no, I am not talking about "bringing back the Bible." I was just saying that women tend to do better in cultures that are traditionally Judeo-Christian than in those that are not, and that I feel lucky to happen to live in such a culture and to be raising my daughter in it. There are and will be inequality and abuse everywhere, but there is a difference in degree and scope. (I mentioned India, Egypt and South Africa because sexual assault on women there is rampant and justice difficult to obtain.) Ok, I guess we see the societies in a different light. I see them as secular, not Judeo-Christian. Either way, I agree, I am glad I raised my daughter in this society and not some of the ones mentioned. Wait a moment, now you have me confused! You started out by saying that: ...which I took to mean that our religious background (at the family or society level) affects how we think and relate to each other. So, from that perspective, we can talk about Judeo-Christian or Hindu or Muslim or whatever cultures/societies based on the religious traditions that permeate and influence them. I wasn't talking about types of government or politics. Hope that explains what I meant
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Post by snow on Jul 28, 2014 14:34:09 GMT -5
Ok, I guess we see the societies in a different light. I see them as secular, not Judeo-Christian. Either way, I agree, I am glad I raised my daughter in this society and not some of the ones mentioned. Wait a moment, now you have me confused! You started out by saying that: ...which I took to mean that our religious background (at the family or society level) affects how we think and relate to each other. So, from that perspective, we can talk about Judeo-Christian or Hindu or Muslim or whatever cultures/societies based on the religious traditions that permeate and influence them. I wasn't talking about types of government or politics. Hope that explains what I meant Ok, yes I see what you meant by culture/societies. I guess what I haven't understood is whether you agree that sacred scripture that makes a woman be submissive or inferior to men is dangerous to women in that society? I'm not sure I'm explaining myself very well.
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Post by fixit on Jul 28, 2014 14:43:57 GMT -5
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