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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 21, 2017 2:14:32 GMT -5
Ros Your post: a) reconfirms you haven't read my posts or b) you have read them & find nothing inaccurate or incorrect in them. (appreciate that) Instead you churn out again your meaningless/silly questions that are already addressed by my posts. If you don't have sense to read them. I won't be wasting anymore time responding to your mindless posts. I'm sorry but that is just the reality of what you are doing Thanks! @review005 I have read through the thread and no where do you address my questions, stop trying to sidestep my questions, like I said before you would make a great salesman ! Of course you won't respond because you can't can you ? Tell me exactly where you answered the simple question I asked "Where is a workers list prior to William Irvine"? Also where did you answer the question in regard to King James being a worker or why your church uses the bible of the Church Of England? You keep stating that WI wasn't the founder of your Church, but you cannot give any evidence to back that up. If your church goes back to the "beginning" who were the workers from the Apostles to WI ? Or didn't they need workers prior to WI ?
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Post by speak on Jun 21, 2017 2:40:40 GMT -5
Speak, -can you list some of the things that you think that you know which I don't know?
Speak, -I ask before -can you tell some of the things that you think that "you know which I don't know?"I'll just give you one, God.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 21, 2017 3:05:47 GMT -5
@review005, what do you actually mean by this ? " We see clearly now our ministry is that from the commission in Mat 28. " Has the view of the early workers that they follow Matt 10 changed now? Or is this a personal revelation that you have?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 21, 2017 3:53:10 GMT -5
I agree these things do not need to be done in the New Covenant, in which we live. However, that is not the principle upon which your church was founded. In their earliest hymnbook there are even four hymns that mention Matthew Ten--all written by Ed Cooney, the 2nd most prominent Worker in the beginning of the 2x2 church. Faith lines was founded on Matthew 10. Matthew Ten Hymns (all by E.C.) 91 v8 So few profess through prophets true, They're numbered with transgressors too; Whilst thousands say Lord, Lord, through men Who preach, but won't live Matthew Ten. 95 v4 We are the slaves of Jesus, we'll therefore onward go. And preach the truth, though scribes, forsooth, say we should not do so; For well we ken, through Matthew Ten, the way that pleases God Christ's way is right, for it we'll fight till put beneath the sod. 99 v4 Live the way I live was what Jesus said To the men who went forth then; Tramp about and preach, saints will give you, bread; This you'll find described in Matthew Ten. 100 v2 About two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Go and preach," Disciples make, the good seed sow, all that I tell you teach; He said this to poor men who left their homes and then Launched out to live like Jesus as told in Matthew Ten.Yes Eddie Cooney wrote this. I have nothing but admiration for those first workers and friends, they stepped out of the religious deadness they had been in and in raw faith and courage sought to get back to the plan for the NT church and ministry that was made in heaven and as Luke say in Acts ch 2 ...began in Galilee..... They didn't get it all correct to start with, they made mistakes but God's blessing was on their efforts and ministry. We see clearly now our ministry is that from the commission in Mat 28. Most of the religious world never has and never will see that and hence the widespread confusion and disunity that exists in Christendom. @review005 here is you full quote, so tell me where in your quote you explain what you mean by saying "We see clearly now our ministry is that from the commission in Matt 28" ? Are you saying the first workers were wrong? But now you have it right ? Or are you trying to justify why the workers cannot heal the sick and many other things the Apostles done?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 3:57:09 GMT -5
Speak, -I ask before -can you tell some of the things that you think that "you know which I don't know?" I'll just give you one, God. Speak, you are "chickening out" and you know that you are! -shame on you!
I had thought of adding to my question to not give a "spiritual" answer, because I figured you didn't know anymore about our history than I did!
We were talking about our history!
If you have something in the way in of our history that you think you know that I don't know, -say it!
I figured correctly that you didn't have anything which was the reason why you didn't answer.
PS: Also your hubris is outstanding!
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Post by speak on Jun 21, 2017 4:10:48 GMT -5
I'll just give you one, God. Speak, you are "chickening out" and you know that you are! -shame on you!
I had thought of adding to my question to not give a "spiritual" answer, because I figured you didn't know anymore about our history than I did!
We were talking about our history!
If you have something in the way in of our history that you think you know that I don't know, -say it!
I figured correctly that you didn't have anything which was the reason why you didn't answer.
PS: Also your hubris is outstanding!
God is our history.
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Post by learning on Jun 21, 2017 6:54:06 GMT -5
That's easy. They made it up. it was an experiment at first. They tested faith lines on the bicycle trip to Scotland in 1899. John Long tested faith lines independently. Then a few years later, in the early 20th century, after the ministry didn't starve, had acquired some converts and more workers, they decided to try to create a church as much like the primitive New Testament church as they could, in their opinion. To restore it. That's what the 2x2 fellowship is...a restoration movement...among other man founded restoration movements in this world.
Except they don't do a number of things like the NT church did, like they don't use real wine and unleavened bread for communion, and a number of other things. Nor did they adopt 1st century dress styles and customs--they adopted the dress of the late 1800's, the Victorian styles and cultural mores. From their magna carta Matt 10, the workers don't and can't: heal.........the sick... Matt 10:8 raise........the dead... Matt 10:8 cleanse....the lepers... Matt 10:8 cast out...the devils... Matt 10:8 The workers don't follow these, but could if they wanted to do so... Take nothing for their journey... Mark 6:8 Take no scrip (bag/baggage)... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, 70-Luke 10:4 except take a staff only... Mark 6:8 (a walking stick) Take no money... Mark 6:8, Matt 10:9, Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4 Take no shoes... Matt 10:10, Luke 10:4 Wear sandals... Mark 6:9 Not to take or have two coats... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, Mark 6:9 When entering a city, locate a worthy household, and remain... Luke 9:4 in the same house until they departed from that city... Matt 10:11 Go not from house to house... Luke 10:7 Salute the houses entered... Matt 10:12 Say, Peace be to this house when they entered...Luke 10:5 Shake the dust off their feet when they left a city, as a testimony against whoever would not receive them... Luke 9:5, Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 When persecuted, flee into another city... Matt 10:23 Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... Matt 10:6; Go NOT to the Gentiles or Samaritans...Matt 10:5 Go to the people in every city and place Jesus was to go (The 70)... Luke 10:1 The apostles were first called in Mat 10 and sent on a short term mission amongst the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later after the resurrection Jesus called that same band of men together in Galilee and gave them a new/extended commission this time to go to all men unto the end of the age. The commission for the NT ministry is in Mat 28 not Mat 10. Same men but the commission was (and still is) for all men unto the end of the age. With your long list you are confused and incorrect. If you read Mat 10 you will see that was for when they went for a short time amongst the Jews. You are talking about the time before the new covenant. As you understand we are living in the new covenant time that started with Jesus death. After his death and resurrection he got those 11 men together and told them their extended commission. That continues until today...and will do so until the end of the age! @review005 In Matthew 28, did Jesus tell his disciples to spread the gospel using the same methods as given in Matthew 10? In other words, going forth in twos, without possessions, etc?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 11:42:21 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with certain elements of the fellowship i.e. meeting in the home and conventions. Or ministers going homeless. Arguments in favor of each can be made. There is really no reason to cover up or mislead people about the early days of the fellowship Ireland 1900. Unless they deal with the founder/history issue, young people will continue to flee the group.
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Post by learning on Jun 21, 2017 14:40:28 GMT -5
@review005 In Matthew 28, did Jesus tell his disciples to spread the gospel using the same methods as given in Matthew 10? In other words, going forth in twos, without possessions, etc? Do you think Jesus said forget everything I've told you, set up theological colleges, start drawing salaries, aim for the top where the lifestyle is the most comfortable? Do you think Peter went back on his "we have left all and followed you". Have you read what Peter did in Acts 1 to fulfill OT prophecy about the NT apostolic ministry that would continue until the end of the age? Have you read the book of Acts? Of the actions of the apostolic ministry there? Maybe you are still in religious or some other sort of blindness and run along with those who explain away the apostolic ministry to suit their 'own way of doing things' ministries... in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017? Yesterday you posted this to Fred in this very thread: The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?"
a)Yes or no answer, and
b)if yes ,then who is founder?You were looking for a "Yes" or "no" answer, yet you yourself won't say "Yes" or "no" to my question. The answer you're reluctant to give is "No", Jesus did not command the disciples in the 'great commission' to go forth as he did in Matthew 10.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 14:42:21 GMT -5
30,000 Christian denominations of 2017 ::: Friend you are in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017.
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Post by speak on Jun 21, 2017 14:48:47 GMT -5
Do you think Jesus said forget everything I've told you, set up theological colleges, start drawing salaries, aim for the top where the lifestyle is the most comfortable? Do you think Peter went back on his "we have left all and followed you". Have you read what Peter did in Acts 1 to fulfill OT prophecy about the NT apostolic ministry that would continue until the end of the age? Have you read the book of Acts? Of the actions of the apostolic ministry there? Maybe you are still in religious or some other sort of blindness and run along with those who explain away the apostolic ministry to suit their 'own way of doing things' ministries... in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017? Yesterday you posted this to Fred in this very thread: The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?"
a)Yes or no answer, and
b)if yes ,then who is founder?You were looking for a "Yes" or "no" answer, yet you yourself won't say "Yes" or "no" to my question. The answer you're reluctant to give is "No", Jesus did not command the disciples in the 'great commission' to go forth as he did in Matthew 10. No but He did say go and teach all things I have commanded you and He certainly commanded them that no matter where in the Bible one finds it.
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Post by speak on Jun 21, 2017 14:51:01 GMT -5
30,000 Christian denominations of 2017 ::: Friend you are in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017. Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man.
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Post by learning on Jun 21, 2017 15:02:13 GMT -5
Yesterday you posted this to Fred in this very thread: The question is "Fred do you belong to a church that has an earthly founder?"
a)Yes or no answer, and
b)if yes ,then who is founder?You were looking for a "Yes" or "no" answer, yet you yourself won't say "Yes" or "no" to my question. The answer you're reluctant to give is "No", Jesus did not command the disciples in the 'great commission' to go forth as he did in Matthew 10. No but He did say go and teach all things I have commanded you and He certainly commanded them that no matter where in the Bible one finds it. He commanded them in Matt 10 to go on a short term mission (by review005's own admission). Using your arguement, it would logically follow that the diciples then would NOT lead a lifetime itinerant ministry.
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Post by Grant on Jun 21, 2017 15:25:57 GMT -5
30,000 Christian denominations of 2017 ::: Friend you are in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017. Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. Haha funny, they all say that. The truth is that the truth is out, you were set up by man. With the age of the Internet your idle words no longer fool people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 15:27:47 GMT -5
Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. ** A man decides who will preach where next year. A man decided when to consolidate fields, conventions or move meetings.The various lists are compiled by men. There is no way that there cannot be "men" preforming church functions. A group of MEN left Ireland around 1900 trying to follow in an apostolic method they felt most closely resembled the New Testament ministry.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 15:32:19 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2017 16:11:05 GMT -5
30,000 Christian denominations of 2017 ::: Friend you are in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017. Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. Actually, I'm not sure Jesus even meant to create Christianity. He was just a devout Jew that felt there were changes needed in his current religion. I doubt he would even recognize the religion Christianity if he came back today.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 17:47:07 GMT -5
You did it again. You claimed; " We know things you don't know."
You apparently "don't know things I don't know."
PS:
What do you mean that you, "I know my history and appreciate some not all."
I wonder what part of the our history you don't "appreciate?"
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Post by learning on Jun 21, 2017 17:48:51 GMT -5
Learning; you need to read the Book of Acts and consider the points I gave you in my last post. At present you can't and don't want to acknowledge that the apostolic ministry will be until the end of the age! But I'm not interested in convincing you. If you see it otherwise run with that! You won't be happy otherwise. If you have found a minister and ministry that is in accordance with your understanding of God's plan for the NT ministry then stick with it. I'm happy for you. In the context of this thread I care about what Jesus actually said and didn't say. By the words of Jesus the 2x2 ministry is NOT justified by either Matt 10 or 28. I do agree that *portions* of Acts appear to justify the 2x2 ministry. But there is a huge difference between saying Jesus said things to directly justify the 2x2 ministry (which is false) and finding justification for the 2x2 ministry using select portions of the book of Acts (which is true).
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 19:17:23 GMT -5
30,000 Christian denominations of 2017 ::: Friend you are in one of the 30,000 Christian denominations of 2017.[/quote\\] Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. Yes, WE were set up by man!
This time was no different!
IT was men who came out of other denominations just like all other denominational founders did.
Do you think that Irvin, Walker, Cooney, Hardie or and the others just came out of nowhere?
No, they were from other churchs.
All denominations began with men from other denominations who thought the religion they were in was not "right." They decided they knew the "right" way and thus began another way.
They also set up systems and ruled over them in almost a dictatorial way.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 21:00:05 GMT -5
Ros Your post: a) reconfirms you haven't read my posts or b) you have read them & find nothing inaccurate or incorrect in them. (appreciate that) Instead you churn out again your meaningless/silly questions that are already addressed by my posts. If you don't have sense to read them. I won't be wasting anymore time responding to your mindless posts. I'm sorry but that is just the reality of what you are doing Thanks! Review005, --I ask you this before but you haven't answered.
Therefore, I can only think that you must believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 22:02:25 GMT -5
Speak, you said "Being around longer doesn't give you the power of knowledge greater than others."
Age does give us a background that does help because of personal experience.
Example: My memory of my younger days are peppered with "names;" names that today are only known from a book. (and often questioned by those who don't want to believe our history)
Names that were often referred to with personal anecdotes by our parents; -names like Tom Beatty, Affie Magwan, Patience Bateman, Lizzy McGregor.
In hindsight, -those very names ring true to the fact that the "*TRUTH,*" as we called it, -come only from one area of the world , Ireland & Scotland.
Also, on the end paper of my father's hymn book from when he was in the work he had jotted down notes of places where the "truth" had spread into Europe, -giving names of the people etc.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 21, 2017 22:06:17 GMT -5
So the non-2*2ers who wrote a large percentage of the Hymns we sing, were just imagining it all? Their experiences could not have been real?
I have gone through all of Review005's posts on this thread and cannot see where he has adequately addressed the issue of Irvine, except to acknowledge he existed and went off the rails. The rest is all spin.
Here is an example of the spin.
Tharold Sylvester August 1983 - "It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not." "We don't deny it when asked if historical account of our founding was true." November 1983 - "We are not following some way founded in the early 1900s, but it goes clear back to Christ." Amazing how you can spin things!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 22, 2017 0:34:16 GMT -5
So the non-2*2ers who wrote a large percentage of the Hymns we sing, were just imagining it all? Their experiences could not have been real? I have gone through all of Review005's posts on this thread and cannot see where he has adequately addressed the issue of Irvine, except to acknowledge he existed and went off the rails. The rest is all spin. Here is an example of the spin. Tharold Sylvester August 1983 - "It depends who we are talking to whether we believe in the Trinity or not." "We don't deny it when asked if historical account of our founding was true." November 1983 - "We are not following some way founded in the early 1900s, but it goes clear back to Christ." Amazing how you can spin things! Pragmatic: Kindly quote from my posts on this thread EVERY statement I have made that you refer to as "the rest is all spin" We'll individually look at each statement so accused and see if it is a true or false accusation you are making. I reject your statement that I have failed to adequately address the issue of Irvine. I openly and freely discuss him with any that ask. I have fully and openly declared that he is NOT the founder of our church. I am at peace and have assurance of the truth and reality of Willy's role in the first years of our fellowship. ☺️ Then you are deluded. Which is a kind way of putting it.
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Post by speak on Jun 22, 2017 0:40:34 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with certain elements of the fellowship i.e. meeting in the home and conventions. Or ministers going homeless. Arguments in favor of each can be made. There is really no reason to cover up or mislead people about the early days of the fellowship Ireland 1900. Unless they deal with the founder/history issue, young people will continue to flee the group. The young might actually understand that what matters is salvation and knowing of the founder/history issue does not matter one tot.
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Post by speak on Jun 22, 2017 0:53:28 GMT -5
No but He did say go and teach all things I have commanded you and He certainly commanded them that no matter where in the Bible one finds it. He commanded them in Matt 10 to go on a short term mission (by review005's own admission). Using your arguement, it would logically follow that the diciples then would NOT lead a lifetime itinerant ministry. My word do you know I find no instruction for a short term mission as you have stated, there is no mention at all of any time limit so I can only surmise that it was never to stop. I can only also surmise that the instruction Jesus gave latter on was to modify it for Gentile use. 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. 32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward. 42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. King James Version (KJV)
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Post by speak on Jun 22, 2017 0:55:16 GMT -5
Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. Haha funny, they all say that. The truth is that the truth is out, you were set up by man. With the age of the Internet your idle words no longer fool people. You put more store in what the internet tells you than the Holy Spirit, I can only surmise that you are internet bound.
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Post by speak on Jun 22, 2017 0:58:16 GMT -5
Did Jesus set up a denomination? No man does. We are not set up by man. ** A man decides who will preach where next year. A man decided when to consolidate fields, conventions or move meetings.The various lists are compiled by men. There is no way that there cannot be "men" preforming church functions. A group of MEN left Ireland around 1900 trying to follow in an apostolic method they felt most closely resembled the New Testament ministry. That's what you think. Man asks God, God decides man passes it on. I know you like to leave God out of the equation, I never see you mention Him. I can only surmise that you are bound by the mind of man.
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