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Post by PrueBert on Jun 20, 2017 5:47:55 GMT -5
Quote - "speak can you give us some examples of " other churches not in unity" ? There are plenty of divisions in your church, start with the differences between workers in regard to divorce & re-marriage."
Speak, just mention that we ALL agree on the teachings of Jesus regards divorce and remarriage. "... whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” Matt 19. We can't agree on what Jesus said to DO about it because He didn't say what to do about it.
As for unity - try going around the world as a Catholic or Anglican, and expect those churches to take you in as one as one of their family.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 5:54:09 GMT -5
Quote - "speak can you give us some examples of " other churches not in unity" ? There are plenty of divisions in your church, start with the differences between workers in regard to divorce & re-marriage." Speak, just mention that we ALL agree on the teachings of Jesus regards divorce and remarriage. "... whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” Matt 19. We can't agree on what Jesus said to DO about it because He didn't say what to do about it.
As for unity - try going around the world as a Catholic or Anglican, and expect those churches to take you in as one as one of their family.But PrueBert that is where you are wrong, because your church does not ALL agree on divorce & re-marriage, because if it did there would be no different rules for different states or countries! Also maybe you need to re-read the thread about Vietnam and think about Unity !
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 20, 2017 8:00:47 GMT -5
No I ask you, why are other churches not in unity and in a lot of cases not in harmony in what you term as the body of Christ. No Christ is not divided, you'red have to have Him first, but then again you couldn't because you are divided. speak can you give us some examples of " other churches not in unity" ? There are plenty of divisions in your church, start with the differences between workers in regard to divorce & re-marriage. There have been plenty of divisions in your church. On TTT, there is a section devoted to known Divisions:There are more details at this link about each of the following links: The Sri Lanka Split, 2016-17 - Peter Morrison Montana & Alaska Purging, 1990 - Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather & Bob Ingram Vietnam Division Account - Canadian workers take over - 2009-2014 Alberta Purging, 1999- Willis Propp Alaska Division, 1989 - Bob Ingram Australia, 1951 - Bill Carroll & Edward Cooney (Victoria) Willie Hughes (South Australia) East-West Division in North America - "When the West broke away from the East" - Jack Carroll & George Walker, including the Colorado Disturbance in the 1930s and 1938 World Conference of Workers. Rulings on Divorce & Remarriage, Overseers no longer allowed to marry. Greece Division, 1985 - Nikolas Papadakis Willie Martin, 1968-69 - Canada
SOME ENFORCED UNITY EXAMPLES: ULTIMATIMS from WORKERS:Alberta: "Are you prepared to support the ministry in our actions regarding taking meetings out of homes and putting people out of the fellowship. Yes or No?" (Alberta Account by Don Galloway) Alberta: Jim Knipe to Jordans: "Do you support the ministry in Alberta in their decision to put people out? It's a matter of standing behind this ministry or not...just give us a simple yes or no answer.” (Alberta Excommunication Tapes) Alaska: "Accept the decisions of the Elders of the Ministry as just and final, and encourage others to do the same." Montana: Truitt & John were asked to step aside from the ministry for preaching "divisive doctrine." Reportedly, at the end of the meetings where he delivered his counter doctrine message, Everett Swanson would ask the Friends who agreed with him to stand to their feet. The majority did, and those who did not stand were disfellowshipped. At a Manhattan Convention held in the 1980's, Friends and Workers were asked to show which side they were on by standing to their feet during a meeting. Most of the Oyler relatives scattered across the state did not stand, and were excluded from fellowship. Willie Martin: “Jim Abbott came to our home and told us if we continued to associate with Willie, we would have to leave the truth.” (Willie Martin Account) Ron Campbell wrote: "I once questioned the South Australian overseer William Hughes about the leaders' reasons for concealing the truth of the internal divisions between senior workers and overseers when, in actuality, young men and women give their lives and all to this cause, honestly believing that all serve and none rule. When asked why young workers were not told the truth his reply was, ‘If we did, none would go!’ " Marg Vogt: “…nine elders in Adelaide went to the Head Worker in that State, John Baartz, and pleaded for love to reign. This came about because while Ron Campbell was home, he was very popular with the people and an excellent preacher, and there was much jealousy against him. Soon after, these nine elders received letters stating that they and their families were to cease fellowship!” East-West USA – George Walker to Irvine Weir: “I would not like you to go to California now. I am sorry but I may have to cut the West off.” Vietnam - Nguyen Family: “The two main things that we did not agree with in his letter were that the Workers ‘deserve our highest respect’ (it is our Lord’s place in our heart, not Workers). And that Uncle Hoa ‘is not considered a part of the teacher staff in this country now.’ Seeing my father disagreed with his letter, Lyle Shultz told him: ‘I can’t take care of you any more.’ My father replied, ‘God will take care of us.’ (Vietnam Account) Rittenhouse:“He put before us two choices: (1) either be led by him or (2) be excommunicated. There were three of us and we said, ‘We choose to be led by the Spirit.’ The three were excommunicated. In the light of this incident and many others, we cannot accept your statement, Jack—quote: “No person has ever been excluded from the Fellowship of God’s People without just cause.” (Letter by Rittenhouse & Sweetland, July 16, 1954)
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Post by johnfields on Jun 20, 2017 8:46:57 GMT -5
Speaking as someone who (from the point of view that most of the world would take on the matter), was simply lied to over the origins of the 2x2s, the various rationalisations as to why William Irvine does not matter strike me as downright manipulative.
Members of my family various attended meetings even though they didn't really want to, or else thought they might be going to Hell because they did not attend meetings, precisely because they thought the meetings had no Earthly founder other than Jesus.
From any normal point of view, the 2x2s have an Earthly founder every bit as much as other churches. Except, most of the other churches are open about it. I realised myself aged around 19, with great difficulty and mental exertion, and only through talking to theology students, that the 2x2s had their origins in the Victorian era at best. When I discovered the truth about the founding of "the meetings" many years later, it was a key revelatory moment in my life.
Very many others have had similar experiences. Some have left "the meetings" on discovering the true history, while some have continued to attend, feeling that William Irvine resurrected the one true way nevertheless. But until people know about William Irvine and the true history of the 2x2s, people frequently feel they are stuck with a choice between going to the meetings or going to Hell.
No-one should dismiss the importance of the experience of others by saying that William Irvine or history doesn't matter, just because Irvine does not matter to them personally. By this reasoning, I could go around claiming to be Jesus myself if I believed it myself, and were I to acquire a following, none of them would be deceived. If people don't know about William Irvine and they're going to the meetings, they don't have the opportunity to assess properly what they're involved in. That's why it matters so much.
The 2x2 movement is fundamentally based on a lie. When everyone in it knows about William Irvine, or at least knows that particular people started the meetings at some relatively recent date, then we might have a hope of regarding the 2x2 religion as honest.
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Post by learning on Jun 20, 2017 9:09:47 GMT -5
I endorse what Gordon said. The plan for the church/fellowship I am now a part of is what was planned in Heaven. Then as Luke wrote in Acts ....began in Galilee...(earthly landmark to use Gordon's expression). I don't know exactly what happened in the intervening 1900 years. There doubtless will be men and women who have done things according to the pattern that was made in heaven. Then late 1800s there were men and women who were disappointed and disillusioned with their experience in the churches and denominations of that day. In raw faith and courage, amidst much persecution and opposition they stepped out of that and sought to live and fellowship and preach according to the pattern that was made in heaven and as Luke says ...began in Galilee..... Some misguided souls claim I am in a church founded by Willy Irvine. Willy Irvine was prominent, a leader in the early days of our church. Early on he, as I understand he 'got off the rails' ended his days in Israel. But what he once was part of had the blessing of God upon it! It grew exponentially after Willy went off! Still today people get salvation and life in this fellowship that is based on that which was planned in heaven. My opinion on your opinion aside, I respect that you clearly state your perspective on this issue here. Some (most?) workers would evade the question and/or leave their opinion out of it. When matters of opinion and perspective are stated this clearly in the fellowship it is a healthy thing because people can then judge for themselves if the tenants held by people/leaders in the fellowship make it a good place of worship for them or not.
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Post by PrueBert on Jun 20, 2017 9:28:52 GMT -5
Quote - "The Sri Lanka Split, 2016-17 - Peter Morrison
Montana & Alaska Purging, 1990 - Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather & Bob Ingram
Vietnam Division Account - Canadian workers take over - 2009-2014
Alberta Purging, 1999- Willis Propp
Alaska Division, 1989 - Bob Ingram
Australia, 1951 - Bill Carroll & Edward Cooney (Victoria) Willie Hughes (South Australia)
East-West Division in North America - "When the West broke away from the East" - Jack Carroll & George Walker, including the Colorado Disturbance in the 1930s and 1938 World Conference of Workers. Rulings on Divorce & Remarriage, Overseers no longer allowed to marry.
Greece Division, 1985 - Nikolas Papadakis
Willie Martin, 1968-69 - Canada"
Where's there's flies, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's trouble, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's peace and happiness, there's no Cherie Kropp
Do I speak for myself or for others here? I say that when you meet people who look for trouble, scandal and gossip - you want to avoid them at all cost. They are desperately unhappy, bitter and tormented people.
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Post by learning on Jun 20, 2017 10:12:57 GMT -5
Quote - "The Sri Lanka Split, 2016-17 - Peter Morrison Montana & Alaska Purging, 1990 - Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather & Bob Ingram Vietnam Division Account - Canadian workers take over - 2009-2014 Alberta Purging, 1999- Willis Propp Alaska Division, 1989 - Bob Ingram Australia, 1951 - Bill Carroll & Edward Cooney (Victoria) Willie Hughes (South Australia) East-West Division in North America - "When the West broke away from the East" - Jack Carroll & George Walker, including the Colorado Disturbance in the 1930s and 1938 World Conference of Workers. Rulings on Divorce & Remarriage, Overseers no longer allowed to marry. Greece Division, 1985 - Nikolas Papadakis Willie Martin, 1968-69 - Canada" Where's there's flies, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's trouble, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's peace and happiness, there's no Cherie Kropp
Do I speak for myself or for others here? I say that when you meet people who look for trouble, scandal and gossip - you want to avoid them at all cost. They are desperately unhappy, bitter and tormented people.There is some truth to what Cherie says. There is some truth to what you say. The difference I see between you and Cherie is that she would probably acknowledge some of your truths before you acknowledge any of her truths.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 10:17:06 GMT -5
You listed 9 'troubles'. I think a relevant question is 'Is it useful to know about these troubles?'.
i personally think there is value, as they can help as precedents when new troubles arise. The precedents can help in guiding what is good/not good in helping and dealing with a new situation. Past knowledge aids fresh learning
i think you have to be careful in how you label people. You could run the risk of saying that because people are looking at 'troubles', then they are troublemakers.
That would be a bad misjudgement. Eg , Graham Thompson looked at 'troubles'. This wasn't because he was a troublemaker (I think almost all people would acknowledge that). But he looked at them because the troubles he tended to get involved with would not get attended to otherwise, and innocent people ran the risk of getting affected adversely. I don't think it was an easy path for Graham, but I spoke to him a couple of days ago and he is certainly not in the 'unhappy, bitter and tormented' category.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 20, 2017 10:46:57 GMT -5
They didn't find it - it was founded in Ireland. If they didn't find it how would they know about it? That's easy. They made it up. it was an experiment at first. They tested faith lines on the bicycle trip to Scotland in 1899. John Long tested faith lines independently. Then a few years later, in the early 20th century, after the ministry didn't starve, had acquired some converts and more workers, they decided to try to create a church as much like the primitive New Testament church as they could, in their opinion. To restore it. That's what the 2x2 fellowship is...a restoration movement...among other man founded restoration movements in this world.
Except they don't do a number of things like the NT church did, like they don't use real wine and unleavened bread for communion, and a number of other things. Nor did they adopt 1st century dress styles and customs--they adopted the dress of the late 1800's, the Victorian styles and cultural mores. From their magna carta Matt 10, the workers don't and can't: heal.........the sick... Matt 10:8 raise........the dead... Matt 10:8 cleanse....the lepers... Matt 10:8 cast out...the devils... Matt 10:8 The workers don't follow these, but could if they wanted to do so... Take nothing for their journey... Mark 6:8 Take no scrip (bag/baggage)... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, 70-Luke 10:4 except take a staff only... Mark 6:8 (a walking stick) Take no money... Mark 6:8, Matt 10:9, Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4 Take no shoes... Matt 10:10, Luke 10:4 Wear sandals... Mark 6:9 Not to take or have two coats... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, Mark 6:9 When entering a city, locate a worthy household, and remain... Luke 9:4 in the same house until they departed from that city... Matt 10:11 Go not from house to house... Luke 10:7 Salute the houses entered... Matt 10:12 Say, Peace be to this house when they entered...Luke 10:5 Shake the dust off their feet when they left a city, as a testimony against whoever would not receive them... Luke 9:5, Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 When persecuted, flee into another city... Matt 10:23 Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... Matt 10:6; Go NOT to the Gentiles or Samaritans...Matt 10:5 Go to the people in every city and place Jesus was to go (The 70)... Luke 10:1
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2017 14:07:40 GMT -5
We don't need an earthly founder so William is not recognised as such. We have an heavenly founder who is and ever more will remain. This reaction to what is reality is so interesting. I knew about William Irvine for years, and I can understand not letting it bother you & not leaving the truth over it (I didn't), but to refuse to acknowledge reality is bizarre. The 2x2's started with W. Irvine. The belief structure he started was based on his interpretation of the 'Truth' as he saw it in the gospels. But to base anything on the Bible and attribute truth to it is stretching things. The bible is written by men trying to understand the meaning of life based on their limited understanding of their world. As humanity matured it became more and more difficult to believe what these people believed because of facts that showed us the bible really wasn't physically possible. That is why a strong faith in things that are bizarre to our understanding of the world today is so important for anyone trying to live a religious lifestyle. Christianity has changed over the years due to the influence of facts brought to light by science. Many Christians no longer believe in the bible as an inerrant book written by God. It still has spiritual value to them but not factual value. There are of course, those who try very hard to believe the whole bible actually happened the way it is written. It takes a lot of faith to deny the facts of evolution etc. Look how long it took the Catholic church to admit that the earth rotates around the sun. I see no value to that degree of cognitive dissonance and it's got to be hard on people. They likely don't see it that way but when we try to believe in a worldwide flood or a virgin giving birth and still remaining a virgin etc. it does take some work. One of the best things about seeing just how much energy is put into 'faith' is the peace and freedom that comes with not fearing hell if you can't believe all the unbelievable. That's how I see most religions working. All are struggles to believe the unbelievable. It's no wonder people have to pray and ask for prayers when their faith is shook up.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 15:29:44 GMT -5
Age does give me & many others knowledge of some things that we know because we have experienced them while younger people haven't.
People should know and appreciate their history .
Of some things not all. We know things you don't know. I know my history and appreciate some not all. Speak, -can you list some of the things that you think that you know which I don't know?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 20, 2017 16:50:36 GMT -5
That's easy. They made it up. it was an experiment at first. They tested faith lines on the bicycle trip to Scotland in 1899. John Long tested faith lines independently. Then a few years later, in the early 20th century, after the ministry didn't starve, had acquired some converts and more workers, they decided to try to create a church as much like the primitive New Testament church as they could, in their opinion. To restore it. That's what the 2x2 fellowship is...a restoration movement...among other man founded restoration movements in this world.
Except they don't do a number of things like the NT church did, like they don't use real wine and unleavened bread for communion, and a number of other things. Nor did they adopt 1st century dress styles and customs--they adopted the dress of the late 1800's, the Victorian styles and cultural mores. From their magna carta Matt 10, the workers don't and can't: heal.........the sick... Matt 10:8 raise........the dead... Matt 10:8 cleanse....the lepers... Matt 10:8 cast out...the devils... Matt 10:8 The workers don't follow these, but could if they wanted to do so... Take nothing for their journey... Mark 6:8 Take no scrip (bag/baggage)... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, 70-Luke 10:4 except take a staff only... Mark 6:8 (a walking stick) Take no money... Mark 6:8, Matt 10:9, Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4 Take no shoes... Matt 10:10, Luke 10:4 Wear sandals... Mark 6:9 Not to take or have two coats... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, Mark 6:9 When entering a city, locate a worthy household, and remain... Luke 9:4 in the same house until they departed from that city... Matt 10:11 Go not from house to house... Luke 10:7 Salute the houses entered... Matt 10:12 Say, Peace be to this house when they entered...Luke 10:5 Shake the dust off their feet when they left a city, as a testimony against whoever would not receive them... Luke 9:5, Matt 10:14, Mark 6:11 When persecuted, flee into another city... Matt 10:23 Go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... Matt 10:6; Go NOT to the Gentiles or Samaritans...Matt 10:5 Go to the people in every city and place Jesus was to go (The 70)... Luke 10:1 The apostles were first called in Mat 10 and sent on a short term mission amongst the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later after the resurrection Jesus called that same band of men together in Galilee and gave them a new/extended commission this time to go to all men unto the end of the age. The commission for the NT ministry is in Mat 28 not Mat 10. Same men but the commission was (and still is) for all men unto the end of the age. With your long list you are confused and incorrect. If you read Mat 10 you will see that was for when they went for a short time amongst the Jews. You are talking about the time before the new covenant. As you understand we are living in the new covenant time that started with Jesus death. After his death and resurrection he got those 11 men together and told them their extended commission. That continues until today...and will do so until the end of the age! I agree these things do not need to be done in the New Covenant, in which we live. However, that is not the principle upon which your church was founded. In their earliest hymnbook there are even four hymns that mention Matthew Ten--all written by Ed Cooney, the 2nd most prominent Worker in the beginning of the 2x2 church. Faith lines was founded on Matthew 10. Matthew Ten Hymns (all by E.C.) 91 v8 So few profess through prophets true, They're numbered with transgressors too; Whilst thousands say Lord, Lord, through men Who preach, but won't live Matthew Ten. 95 v4 We are the slaves of Jesus, we'll therefore onward go. And preach the truth, though scribes, forsooth, say we should not do so; For well we ken, through Matthew Ten, the way that pleases God Christ's way is right, for it we'll fight till put beneath the sod. 99 v4 Live the way I live was what Jesus said To the men who went forth then; Tramp about and preach, saints will give you, bread; This you'll find described in Matthew Ten. 100 v2 About two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Go and preach," Disciples make, the good seed sow, all that I tell you teach; He said this to poor men who left their homes and then Launched out to live like Jesus as told in Matthew Ten.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 17:12:15 GMT -5
Quote - "The Sri Lanka Split, 2016-17 - Peter Morrison Montana & Alaska Purging, 1990 - Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather & Bob Ingram Vietnam Division Account - Canadian workers take over - 2009-2014 Alberta Purging, 1999- Willis Propp Alaska Division, 1989 - Bob Ingram Australia, 1951 - Bill Carroll & Edward Cooney (Victoria) Willie Hughes (South Australia) East-West Division in North America - "When the West broke away from the East" - Jack Carroll & George Walker, including the Colorado Disturbance in the 1930s and 1938 World Conference of Workers. Rulings on Divorce & Remarriage, Overseers no longer allowed to marry. Greece Division, 1985 - Nikolas Papadakis Willie Martin, 1968-69 - Canada" Where's there's flies, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's trouble, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's peace and happiness, there's no Cherie Kropp
Do I speak for myself or for others here?
I say that when you meet people who look for trouble, scandal and gossip - you want to avoid them at all cost.
They are desperately unhappy, bitter and tormented people. Bert, -are you saying those incidents didn't amount to anything & should be ignored as unimportant? Are saying that they should be swept under the rug and not talked about just because they were caused by WORKERS?
Cherie DIDN'T CAUSE those incidents. She wasn't "looking for trouble, scandal or gossip."
Many of the friends suffered a great deal from such incidents that happened due to rifts and disagreements among the WORKERS.
Yet at the same time the WORKERS the world over were acting as if they were all of one accord, of one mind, and using that to claim they were ministers of the one TRUE way!
Don't try to tell us who know the truth of such incidents that we are "desperately unhappy, bitter and tormented people." We who are the ones who are free of such feelings when we acknowledge all of the TRUTH about the *TRUTH.*
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 17:47:08 GMT -5
It's interesting that when I was in my teens that I was told unambiguously that William Irvine was the first worker in our church and it started in the late 1800's. After I was married an English worker came to our home regularly and told us about the early days which started with William Irvine. It was refreshingly honest and unambiguous. Similarly, after The Secret Sect was published the local Head Worker spoke at each of our conventions that "we have a lot to thank William Irvine for". It sounds like you need to brush up on your history and what actually happened. Ross, I know or have known as many of them are tits up now, many Irish people and to them this issue or Willy Irvine was no big deal. They viewed him and his companions as the first worker in their church. What I do find odd is some workers of this modern era who choose to alter history. I find that disingenuous and does no good to their cause. If anyone wants an insight into the true history of the 2x2 church, there are 3 large boxes of documents in the public record office in Belfast containing all you need to know about the founding of the 2x2 sect. They contain sworn affidavits from a host of early workers detailing how the sect came about plus a host of other goodies which, once your eyes have feasted upon, will leave you in no doubt that it is just another man made church started by some slightly whacky Scotsman. Of course some may continue to cling desperately to the idea that this is just not true, like an ostrich burying its tiny head deep into the hot desert sand oblivious to the fact that its huge protruding body is blindingly obvious to everyone and everything else. Denial is no mean thing. There were those in the Titanic who refused to leave their cabins believing she was unsinkable even as the water continued to rise. And you can kind of understand it too. If you've given your life to this thing on the basis that you believed started in galilee and then you realise that it actually started in Ireland in County Meath, where does that leave you? Apart from seriously peeved off obviously. Matt10
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 19:35:04 GMT -5
I agree these things do not need to be done in the New Covenant, in which we live. However, that is not the principle upon which your church was founded. In their earliest hymnbook there are even four hymns that mention Matthew Ten--all written by Ed Cooney, the 2nd most prominent Worker in the beginning of the 2x2 church. Faith lines was founded on Matthew 10. Matthew Ten Hymns (all by E.C.) 91 v8 So few profess through prophets true, They're numbered with transgressors too; Whilst thousands say Lord, Lord, through men Who preach, but won't live Matthew Ten. 95 v4 We are the slaves of Jesus, we'll therefore onward go. And preach the truth, though scribes, forsooth, say we should not do so; For well we ken, through Matthew Ten, the way that pleases God Christ's way is right, for it we'll fight till put beneath the sod. 99 v4 Live the way I live was what Jesus said To the men who went forth then; Tramp about and preach, saints will give you, bread; This you'll find described in Matthew Ten. 100 v2 About two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Go and preach," Disciples make, the good seed sow, all that I tell you teach; He said this to poor men who left their homes and then Launched out to live like Jesus as told in Matthew Ten.Yes Eddie Cooney wrote this. I have nothing but admiration for those first workers and friends, they stepped out of the religious deadness they had been in and in raw faith and courage sought to get back to the plan for the NT church and ministry that was made in heaven and as Luke say in Acts ch 2 ...began in Galilee..... They didn't get it all correct to start with, they made mistakes but God's blessing was on their efforts and ministry. We see clearly now our ministry is that from the commission in Mat 28. Most of the religious world never has and never will see that and hence the widespread confusion and disunity that exists in Christendom. @review005, so can you explain why there is confusion & disunity within your church ? Also with this statement "We see clearly now our ministry is that from the commission in Mat 28" you are confirming what others keep saying which is that the F&W believe they are "the only right way" !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 19:43:48 GMT -5
Quote - "The Sri Lanka Split, 2016-17 - Peter Morrison Montana & Alaska Purging, 1990 - Truitt Oyler, John Starkweather & Bob Ingram Vietnam Division Account - Canadian workers take over - 2009-2014 Alberta Purging, 1999- Willis Propp Alaska Division, 1989 - Bob Ingram Australia, 1951 - Bill Carroll & Edward Cooney (Victoria) Willie Hughes (South Australia) East-West Division in North America - "When the West broke away from the East" - Jack Carroll & George Walker, including the Colorado Disturbance in the 1930s and 1938 World Conference of Workers. Rulings on Divorce & Remarriage, Overseers no longer allowed to marry. Greece Division, 1985 - Nikolas Papadakis Willie Martin, 1968-69 - Canada" Where's there's flies, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's trouble, there's Cherie Kropp Where's there's peace and happiness, there's no Cherie Kropp
Do I speak for myself or for others here? I say that when you meet people who look for trouble, scandal and gossip - you want to avoid them at all cost. They are desperately unhappy, bitter and tormented people. How typical of PrueBert, you really cannot accept the TRUTH ! Keep clinging to your version of truth PrueBert, but I suppose we cannot expect much else from someone who lies about knowing the Head Worker of their state or the FACT that workers in his state have been jailed for CSA yet he doesn't personally know any "abusers" !
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 20:00:47 GMT -5
One worker Review is finally getting it. All the years of people including Cherie posting that Matthew 10 was a short term mission to the Jews, Review is finally acknowledging it. But note he does not say they are not following Matthew 10, he says this same commission was extended to be done in all the world, no changes except not just the Jews but everyone. So Cherie's post which shows that the workers are not following Matthew 10 as the workers claim they are is correct. We know they are not following Matthew 10 so what are they following? Where did they get the idea of going out without purse etc if not Matthew 10.
Churches everywhere are following Matthew 28. No confusion except in the workers minds. Their own church is full of confusion and contradictions. Review seems to deny Matthew 10 now contradicting the early workers.
Review gives no reference to Luke 22 : 35 where Jesus says "When I sent you without purse bag and sandals did you lack anything. Nothing they answered. He said to them, But now if you have a purse take it, and also a bag, and if you don't have a sword sell you cloak and buy one as it is written, And he was numbered with the transgressors and I tell you this must be fulfilled in me......" Very clearly going out without purse etc was to the Jews and was not to continue when Jesus left them.
I also wonder why Review only quotes Matthew 28 and not the full commission in Mark 16:15, with says signs following those who believe. An instruction given in Matthew 10. Seems to be a case of picking and choosing which scripture he wants instead of the whole picture.
Why do you not do the things Jesus commanded that they do in Matthew 10, Review? You use this as your pattern for Matthew 18. There is more than one command in Matthew 28 which is going to the whole world.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 20, 2017 20:18:49 GMT -5
Of course a worker is not going to refer to Irvine as a founder. That would then make liars out of those who say there was no founder. No, they prefer to be spin doctors and couch it in different ways, if at all. Those of us with ancestors from Ireland and England who talked quite freely about Irvine, and others and the "troubles" were fortunate, otherwise it could have been a bit of a shock. If Irvine wasn't the founder of the church as we know it, then who was before him, and who before that person? If there was no Apostolic succession, then Irvine was the founder, or a re-founder, if one wants to split hairs.
I have no problem with there being a founder, I just have a problem with it not being admitted to. It was the period of Christian renaissance and many churches had their founding in that period.
Of course things then evolved and changes were made. That is what always happens.
I agree with Enuf on the verse in Luke 22:35. Nothing wrong with the 2*2 ministry methodology, in fact I like it, but it does not disqualify other ministry models either. The term hireling can equally apply to a worker...it's about attitude and heart.
As for Pruebert's anti-Cherie post, Cherie Kropp posts the history, and it is great to have things documented, both good and bad and those of us inside as well as those outside "the way" should be grateful for her work. Things either happened or they didn't. If they did, and were hidden, then the Ministry would be open to being taken over by those with Despotic leanings. Imagine if Paul had not written about standing up to a fellow worker? He wanted people to know the truth.
"Know the Truth" can also be applied in these cases.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 21:10:19 GMT -5
<quote> When I listened to the Gospel; I had a spiritual experience and got a the revelation of Jesus Christ and a new spiritual life that I never had before. There was absolutely nothing of an krop/fred style 'earthly founder' about that. Years later I read the Secret Sect book. I wondered what all the fuss was about!!! I could see the old anglican minister author chap was a disaffected ex member from how he wrote. Interestingly his writings didn't weaken my faith, they increased and confirmed the experience I had. That of God's messengers being used to bring the message and life of Jesus Christ to me. review005
The derogatory manner in which you speak of Doug Parker as an "old anglican minister author chap was a disaffected ex member from how he wrote." indicates how disrespectful you are of anyone who doesn't agree with you as well as how little you really know about Doug Parker's life
Doug Parker had sold his business and was planning to go into the "work" and was visiting relatives before he left when someone in passing happened to say, "Oh, yes, -that is Edward Cooney's belief."
Having never heard the name "Edward Cooney," Parker began to ask questions of the overseer who became upset and didn't want to answer him.
Since Parker's parents came from The British Isles, (Ireland itself, I believe) -he decided to make a journey there before going into the "work."
When he followed the "paper trail," -as they say these days, -and was reading the old newspaper accounts of those early days of "The Way," "The Truth," or what ever you want to call it and finding that he had NOT been told the truth all those years he simply broke down and cried. YOU, -review005, -can't hold a candle to Doug Parker.
He had integrity, -he had the honesty to not look the other way. He could have just went ahead into the "work" and pretend he hadn't find anything.
But Doug Parker chose rather to stand up and say what had been hidden from most to those who were professing all those years.
PS:
It really doesn't matter whether the "workers" are or are NOT "God's messengers" of any TRUE WAY.
They long ago forfeited that right to call themselves that after being deceptive .
At least NOW that they know their history as YOU do, review005, -they are accountable for any misrepresentations they make.
Many WORKERS in the past didn't even know the history themselves before going into the work! ( as did my father)
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Post by Grant on Jun 20, 2017 21:21:00 GMT -5
If you do not like the word founder for William Irvine do you admit to the word, started, your church, review?
Do you admit that William Irvine started your church, review?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 21:25:02 GMT -5
Of course a worker is not going to refer to Irvine as a founder. That would then make liars out of those who say there was no founder. No, they prefer to be spin doctors and couch it in different ways, if at all. Those of us with ancestors from Ireland and England who talked quite freely about Irvine, and others and the "troubles" were fortunate, otherwise it could have been a bit of a shock. If Irvine wasn't the founder of the church as we know it, then who was before him, and who before that person? If there was no Apostolic succession, then Irvine was the founder, or a re-founder, if one wants to split hairs. I have no problem with there being a founder, I just have a problem with it not being admitted to. It was the period of Christian renaissance and many churches had their founding in that period. Of course things then evolved and changes were made. That is what always happens. I agree with Enuf on the verse in Luke 22:35. Nothing wrong with the 2*2 ministry methodology, in fact I like it, but it does not disqualify other ministry models either. The term hireling can equally apply to a worker...it's about attitude and heart. As for Pruebert's anti-Cherie post, Cherie Kropp posts the history, and it is great to have things documented, both good and bad and those of us inside as well as those outside "the way" should be grateful for her work. Things either happened or they didn't. If they did, and were hidden, then the Ministry would be open to being taken over by those with Despotic leanings. Imagine if Paul had not written about standing up to a fellow worker? He wanted people to know the truth. "Know the Truth" can also be applied in these cases. I will not state that Willy I is the founder of the church I belong to. That is a lie/alternative fact spun by disaffected ex members. I have already stated the truth of it in earlier posts on this very thread. 'Kellyanne' Cherie Kropp has shown on this thread her 'alternative fact' manufacturing competence already! @review005, if "Willy I" wasn't the founder of your church, maybe you better come up with some workers list prior to the late 1800's. That's right you can't because your Church didn't exist prior to that did it ! Funny how your church uses Hymns in your Hymn book written by people by who didn't belong to your Church or the FACT that your Church uses a BIBLE that was translated for the Church Of England, but wait maybe King James was a worker !
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 21:56:16 GMT -5
@review005, if "Willy I" wasn't the founder of your church, maybe you better come up with some workers list prior to the late 1800's. That's right you can't because your Church didn't exist prior to that did it ! Funny how your church uses Hymns in your Hymn book written by people by who didn't belong to your Church or the FACT that your Church uses a BIBLE that was translated for the Church Of England, but wait maybe King James was a worker ! Roslyn look you are making a fool of yourself with this post. You obviously haven't read my posts. If you had you wouldn't make the silly statements you have. I suggest you reread the thread and try again. You are quite similar to enuf in that you are coming up with the same old tired oft states arguments that simply don't hold water. You would make a great salesman @review005 ! Of course you cannot answer my questions because them you would have to admit that William Irvine was the founder of your Church There are records of workers list from Irvine on wards but nothing prior, but that is just a coincidence I suppose ! As for holding water.... maybe you can tell us what happened to the people from after the Apostles until Irvine, didn't God want any of them to be saved ? Was King James a worker ? If he wasn't why does your church use the bible that was translated for the Church Of England ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 20, 2017 21:58:56 GMT -5
Edward Cooney (in witness seat under oath in London courtroom presided by Justice Darling) "Were you the founder of this sect?" Edward Cooney: "No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow preacher and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognize the name, but others have nicknamed us the Cooneyites. I do not like it myself." [Impartial Reporter 12/13/13] REF #153
Walter Pollock We know that it began with a group of men in the British Isles around the turn of the century. That's as far as we've been able to trace it.
Jill Christianson As near as I can figure, since there are no church records in recent times, the TRUTH came from England at the turn of the century.
Haakon Ausenhus During the dark ages, there was almost total falsity in the world churches. We don't need to know the historical evidence of how this way has been preserved. The proof is in The Way being preserved. It is the same; the miracle of the preserved Word of God. We don't need to know how or by whom it was preserved. But we do know of the harmony of God's Word and way.
Willie Pollock I don't want to drop a bombshell. But there has not been continuity from Jesus' time until now but we feel there was a stump left somewhere but today there is a tree. Job 14: 7.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 20, 2017 22:14:14 GMT -5
@review005 , if "Willy I" wasn't the founder of your church, maybe you better come up with some workers list prior to the late 1800's. That's right you can't because your Church didn't exist prior to that did it ! Funny how your church uses Hymns in your Hymn book written by people by who didn't belong to your Church or the FACT that your Church uses a BIBLE that was translated for the Church Of England, but wait maybe King James was a worker ! Roslyn; I'm sorry but look you are making a fool of yourself with this post. You obviously haven't read my posts. If you had you wouldn't make the silly statements you have. I suggest you reread the thread and try again. You are quite similar to enuf in that you are coming up with the same old tired 'often rolled out' arguments that simply don't hold water. review005, do you really think that any one of us wants to RE-READ all of your posts where you have worked so hard & put so much effort into dissembling and attempting to mislead us about the facts that we know to be reality?
Just go ahead and believe whatever you want to believe if is makes you happy!
Just don't tell us we are making "fools" of ourselves and making "silly" statements or "rolling out' arguments that simply don't hold water."
By doing so, you are only indicating you really don't know much of our history after all in spite of what you claim to know.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jun 21, 2017 1:02:36 GMT -5
Edward Cooney (in witness seat under oath in London courtroom presided by Justice Darling) "Were you the founder of this sect?" Edward Cooney: "No, William Irvine was the first, about sixteen years ago. I cast in my lot with him as a fellow preacher and preached a good deal in the north of Ireland. I recognize the name, but others have nicknamed us the Cooneyites. I do not like it myself." [Impartial Reporter 12/13/13] REF #153 Walter Pollock We know that it began with a group of men in the British Isles around the turn of the century. That's as far as we've been able to trace it. Jill Christianson As near as I can figure, since there are no church records in recent times, the TRUTH came from England at the turn of the century. Haakon Ausenhus During the dark ages, there was almost total falsity in the world churches. We don't need to know the historical evidence of how this way has been preserved. The proof is in The Way being preserved. It is the same; the miracle of the preserved Word of God. We don't need to know how or by whom it was preserved. But we do know of the harmony of God's Word and way. Willie Pollock I don't want to drop a bombshell. But there has not been continuity from Jesus' time until now but we feel there was a stump left somewhere but today there is a tree. Job 14: 7. You are reconfirming that you dont read my posts! If you expect me to respond you'll need to do that. Read them & you'll have the answers to your all your 'arguments'. Listen go through my posts on the thread and find all the errors I've made & post them. I'll apologize and retract every single actual and factual error I have posted. @review005 Give me one workers list prior to William Irvine. Prove that King James was a worker and if he wasn't why your church uses a bible he commissioned to be translated for the Church Of England. Also I posted the above to prove there is no unity even amongst the workers about the beginning of your church.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 1:55:39 GMT -5
Ros Your post: a) reconfirms you haven't read my posts or b) you have read them & find nothing inaccurate or incorrect in them. (appreciate that) Instead you churn out again your meaningless/silly questions that are already addressed by my posts. If you don't have sense to read them. I won't be wasting anymore time responding to your mindless posts. I'm sorry but that is just the reality of what you are doing Thanks! Taking the easy way out once again! Review005, can you answer just one question without dissembling?
Do you believe that the WORKERS of the "fellowship," -which you in are in now, -are the only ones through which one can hear the voice of GOD to his people and that all other "ministers" cannot be depended on as representing the will of GOD?
And don't tell me to read your past statements for the answer.
I have read them and the answer is NOT there.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jun 21, 2017 2:00:32 GMT -5
Of some things not all. We know things you don't know. I know my history and appreciate some not all. Speak, -can you list some of the things that you think that you know which I don't know?
Speak, -I ask before -can you tell some of the things that you think that "you know which I don't know?"
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 21, 2017 2:05:57 GMT -5
Of course a worker is not going to refer to Irvine as a founder. That would then make liars out of those who say there was no founder. No, they prefer to be spin doctors and couch it in different ways, if at all. Those of us with ancestors from Ireland and England who talked quite freely about Irvine, and others and the "troubles" were fortunate, otherwise it could have been a bit of a shock. If Irvine wasn't the founder of the church as we know it, then who was before him, and who before that person? If there was no Apostolic succession, then Irvine was the founder, or a re-founder, if one wants to split hairs. I have no problem with there being a founder, I just have a problem with it not being admitted to. It was the period of Christian renaissance and many churches had their founding in that period. Of course things then evolved and changes were made. That is what always happens. I agree with Enuf on the verse in Luke 22:35. Nothing wrong with the 2*2 ministry methodology, in fact I like it, but it does not disqualify other ministry models either. The term hireling can equally apply to a worker...it's about attitude and heart. As for Pruebert's anti-Cherie post, Cherie Kropp posts the history, and it is great to have things documented, both good and bad and those of us inside as well as those outside "the way" should be grateful for her work. Things either happened or they didn't. If they did, and were hidden, then the Ministry would be open to being taken over by those with Despotic leanings. Imagine if Paul had not written about standing up to a fellow worker? He wanted people to know the truth. "Know the Truth" can also be applied in these cases. I will not state that Willy I is the founder of the church I belong to. That is a lie/alternative fact spun by disaffected ex members. I have already stated the truth of it in earlier posts on this very thread. 'Kellyanne' Cherie Kropp has shown on this thread her 'alternative fact' manufacturing competence already! Review I think we should start referring to you in a derogatory manner. Perhaps we could start with Pope John the XXIV
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