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Post by fred on May 3, 2016 22:02:20 GMT -5
Yes, but my point is that we cannot just change our appearance and claim true faith. Those 'outward, observable products' are not found in our appearance, but rather in our living and relationships with our fellow man. The fabric we choose to wear cannot be a reliable indicator of the heart.
No, we would not disregard modesty, nor would we allow others to define our modesty, we would use or liberty wisely.
By allowing others to inhibit the HS and draft us into a uniformity concerning our outward appearance, is in my thinking disrespecting the teachings of Jesus.
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Post by whyisitso on May 3, 2016 22:04:33 GMT -5
Nathan, your use of the term "outdated" implies a desire to keep up with the world's standards of fashion. Why would those matter to a Christian? Are we concerned that the world might not accept us if we reveal too little of our bodies? I'm afraid Christians who seek to appease their consciences with "modest" swimsuits are starting from the world's standards and then "improving" on them just enough that, they hope, the world will not see them as different. God is the same yesterday, today, forever. Godly standards are never "outdated". Faithful Christians are different. Christians are 'different' to non-believers, but some seem to work at proving this by changing their appearance - really, mostly it seems like part acting. IMO, a true Christian does not need to work at proving anything, the work of the Holy Spirit changes our desires and motivation and this will be evident without flaunting anything in anybody else's face. It changes our whole being and outlook and this may not have a lot to do with appearance, certainly nothing to do with a 'uniform'. The only time I read of Jesus commenting on anybodies appearance was to berate those who dressed and acted to appear righteous. The modesty/appearance issue is just so subjective, in many cases it is merely in the eyes of the beholder. Have a look at various cultures around the globe and this becomes evident. Totally agree. Wish I could like your comment more than once! |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 3, 2016 22:18:53 GMT -5
You might have noticed that I never suggested we could change only our appearance and claim true faith on that basis. Think of a tree which produces good fruit. It is a certain type of tree and it is good inwardly, it is a healthy, living tree. So it will produce fruit. You can see the fruit. A healthy tree does not try to hide or disguise its fruit. It is not ashamed of its fruit or the life within it that produced that fruit. So a living faith will produce fruit. Fruit is manifest in the believer's life. A consistent faith will show fruit in our appearance, including in the way we dress. Or did you believe that the way you dress was an area of your life about which God did not care? Is he our Lord and Master in some areas, but not in others?
Does the Bible record any instances of God using some of his followers to lead others to a better understanding or a more faithful walk with him? Did God intend for all of his followers to walk alone, never receiving or willing to receive any help from a brother or sister? Is nothing right for me unless I come up with it myself, as my own idea, independent from the interference of any of my fellow believers? Or is it possible that God even today desires for his people to help one other while we yet dwell in this world? Should a Christian consider whether his or her actions might lead a brother or sister, or even a non-believer into temptation by our words or deeds or appearance? Should a Christian be willing to lay aside those practices that he learned in the world which are not befitting a servant of Christ, even though he loved those practices so dearly and they seemed to satisfy his desires?
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Post by fred on May 3, 2016 23:39:43 GMT -5
You might have noticed that I never suggested we could change only our appearance and claim true faith on that basis. Think of a tree which produces good fruit. It is a certain type of tree and it is good inwardly, it is a healthy, living tree. So it will produce fruit. You can see the fruit. A healthy tree does not try to hide or disguise its fruit. It is not ashamed of its fruit or the life within it that produced that fruit. So a living faith will produce fruit. Fruit is manifest in the believer's life. A consistent faith will show fruit in our appearance, including in the way we dress. Or did you believe that the way you dress was an area of your life about which God did not care? Is he our Lord and Master in some areas, but not in others? No, you did not say that by our appearance we can claim spirituality, but is certainly implicit in your reasoning. For more on what the fruits of the spirit are you can refer to your bible. Paul speaks about not using our liberty to offend a weak brother. Perhaps you could read up on what defines a 'weak' brother. He never intended that our relationship with our brothers and sisters would lead to "uniformity", rather there are many references to a unity of spirit. |
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Post by ellie on May 3, 2016 23:51:51 GMT -5
Not really - I like my swimwear to actually stay on in the ocean  If you swim wearing what you were born with there is no danger of it falling off! Probably not but I might get arrested for indecent exposure. It's also warmer to swim with clothing on. Emphasis on the man-made. Probably Augustine again, until I know better, he's good to blame  but actually I don't know. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 4, 2016 1:51:18 GMT -5
Remember that we're discussing whether a Christian should be conformed to the world. The Bible has a clear answer to that. To affirm that in the life of a Christian is to affirm the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The new life in Christ is not compatible with immorality. The Bible is also clear on that. The Holy Spirit leads us to live in purity, love for others, good deeds, humility, and peace. Hate, rage, pride, and the lusts of the flesh belong to the old, fallen, unredeemed man and have no place in the life of a Christian.
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Post by fred on May 4, 2016 3:22:20 GMT -5
Remember that we're discussing whether a Christian should be conformed to the world. The Bible has a clear answer to that. To affirm that in the life of a Christian is to affirm the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The new life in Christ is not compatible with immorality. The Bible is also clear on that. The Holy Spirit leads us to live in purity, love for others, good deeds, humility, and peace. Hate, rage, pride, and the lusts of the flesh belong to the old, fallen, unredeemed man and have no place in the life of a Christian. Now this is something on which we agree. |
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 8:10:02 GMT -5
Remember that we're discussing whether a Christian should be conformed to the world. The Bible has a clear answer to that. To affirm that in the life of a Christian is to affirm the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The new life in Christ is not compatible with immorality. The Bible is also clear on that. The Holy Spirit leads us to live in purity, love for others, good deeds, humility, and peace. Hate, rage, pride, and the lusts of the flesh belong to the old, fallen, unredeemed man and have no place in the life of a Christian. Christians are, I believe, humans and the qualities mentioned in both lists are the very qualities that make us human. Without, for example, lust, it is questionable whether we would still be around. These qualities have continued to be a part of the makeup of humans because they were/are important to the survival of the species. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 8:41:57 GMT -5
If you are a Christian you are. No. This is going down the path where people believe a woman gets raped because of the clothes she wears. Or that a child is abused because it was too friendly to an adult abuser. Of course, this also raises the question of whether it is wrong to be sexually attractive to others. It keeps the species from going extinct. Given the likes and dislikes of people you would be hard pressed to wear something that would not be sexually attractive to someone. We as Christians are to dress modest, dressing sexually provocative would not be modest and yes could make others stumble in their thoughts and it could lead to premarital sex with consent of both parties.Obviously there is no excuse for men sexually assaulting women. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 8:54:53 GMT -5
Thong must be a uncomfortable thing! A modest person would behave so as to avoid encouraging the sexual attention of others.Dressing modestly doesn't mean you should look as if you just arrived from the Victorian ages and it doesn't mean you should look alike as Christian women. Erm, Boksburg, that was said tongue in cheek. In Australia a 'thong' is footwear. Flip flops, jandals... Not sure what else they're know by in other corners of the globe. For myself I'm more of a one piece, board shorts and rashie girl (basically that makes it look like I'm at the beach with shorts and t-shirt) This is my choice as I've grown to understand how hot and dangerous the sun is and the damage it will do to our skin here in Queensland. But, if someone wants to wear a bikini to the beach good luck to them. Usually if I see someone with not much on my first thought is 'melanoma'! Not, oh they look hot, let me lust after them! I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. |
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 9:17:47 GMT -5
We as Christians are to dress modest, dressing sexually provocative would not be modest and yes could make others stumble in their thoughts and it could lead to premarital sex with consent of both parties.Obviously there is no excuse for men sexually assaulting women. You have failed to see the problem. I might well find a shirtwaist dress (shirtdress) to be sexually provocative while a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck does nothing for me at all. As far as premarital sex goes, although my memory is dim, I do not recall a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck or a french maid costume being involved but I seem to recall some very modest dresses! For some, sexuality is not in what is revealed but in the promise of what could be revealed. I keep seeing the word modest as being the guide word for wardrobe choices but then the person is left up to their own decision. It is not what the person wears, what they look like, or the shape of their body. It has much more to do with their individual attitude and the personal likes and dislikes of the observer. Beauty, and sexuality, is in the eye of the beholder. I am certain there are many that find the hijab provocative. |
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Post by ellie on May 4, 2016 9:37:50 GMT -5
Erm, Boksburg, that was said tongue in cheek. In Australia a 'thong' is footwear. Flip flops, jandals... Not sure what else they're know by in other corners of the globe. For myself I'm more of a one piece, board shorts and rashie girl (basically that makes it look like I'm at the beach with shorts and t-shirt) This is my choice as I've grown to understand how hot and dangerous the sun is and the damage it will do to our skin here in Queensland. But, if someone wants to wear a bikini to the beach good luck to them. Usually if I see someone with not much on my first thought is 'melanoma'! Not, oh they look hot, let me lust after them! I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. What do you mean by lust after? Sexual attraction is natural and in itself not a problem. |
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Post by ellie on May 4, 2016 9:42:32 GMT -5
We as Christians are to dress modest, dressing sexually provocative would not be modest and yes could make others stumble in their thoughts and it could lead to premarital sex with consent of both parties.Obviously there is no excuse for men sexually assaulting women. You have failed to see the problem. I might well find a shirtwaist dress (shirtdress) to be sexually provocative while a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck does nothing for me at all. As far as premarital sex goes, although my memory is dim, I do not recall a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck or a french maid costume being involved but I seem to recall some very modest dresses! For some, sexuality is not in what is revealed but in the promise of what could be revealed. I keep seeing the word modest as being the guide word for wardrobe choices but then the person is left up to their own decision. It is not what the person wears, what they look like, or the shape of their body. It has much more to do with their individual attitude and the personal likes and dislikes of the observer. Beauty, and sexuality, is in the eye of the beholder. I am certain there are many that find the hijab provocative. Don't forget scent and not in the aftershave kind of way! We are closer to our non human cousins than we realise I think. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 9:46:36 GMT -5
We as Christians are to dress modest, dressing sexually provocative would not be modest and yes could make others stumble in their thoughts and it could lead to premarital sex with consent of both parties.Obviously there is no excuse for men sexually assaulting women. You have failed to see the problem. I might well find a shirtwaist dress (shirtdress) to be sexually provocative while a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck does nothing for me at all. As far as premarital sex goes, although my memory is dim, I do not recall a leopard mesh teddy with a plunging v-neck or a french maid costume being involved but I seem to recall some very modest dresses! For some, sexuality is not in what is revealed but in the promise of what could be revealed. I keep seeing the word modest as being the guide word for wardrobe choices but then the person is left up to their own decision. It is not what the person wears, what they look like, or the shape of their body. It has much more to do with their individual attitude and the personal likes and dislikes of the observer. Beauty, and sexuality, is in the eye of the beholder. I am certain there are many that find the hijab provocative. The Holy Spirit is our guide in dressing modest ( which I know you won't understand,thus we don't need to debate that). You can only speak for yourself what would or would not cause you to be sexually attracted to a women.Yes age and values does play a role in what would attract a person sexually.All that I have to be concerned with is following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and then I will not be a stumbling block to the weaker men amongst us. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 9:51:25 GMT -5
I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. What do you mean by lust after? Sexual attraction is natural and in itself not a problem. True. A desire for sexual immoralities would be wrong. |
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 11:27:36 GMT -5
Don't forget scent and not in the aftershave kind of way! We are closer to our non human cousins than we realise I think. And I enjoy it whenever I can! |
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 11:43:55 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit is our guide in dressing modest ( which I know you won't understand,thus we don't need to debate that). I have seen the results of what people call guidance by the HS so you are right, there is no need to discuss it. Actually, each person can only speak for themselves as to what would or what would not be sexually attractive to them. That was my point - how can you dress to not be sexually provocative when what is and what is not sexually provocative varies with the observer?Not sure that values are part of it. If a person finds the nape of the neck sexually attractive what does that have to do with values?What about the women? I am not sure the HS is up on what is and what is not sexually act attractive. You could decide to dress in sackcloth and ashes only to learn that sackcloth and ashes is what does it for that man across the street! |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 12:21:13 GMT -5
Nothing wrong with thongs on a beach, especially if the sand is hot  Yes, I thought the same. Maybe he's talking about different thongs....  Funnily enough quite a few years ago there were a couple of American professing gals that came to Sydney town and at the beach they trotted out in their bikinis! We were pleasantly surprised....and it was all quite modest  I suspect now that there are plenty of young professing gals who wear bikinis at the beach..... Educate an old man, what are thongs?  |
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Post by whyisitso on May 4, 2016 16:13:15 GMT -5
Yes, I thought the same. Maybe he's talking about different thongs.... Funnily enough quite a few years ago there were a couple of American professing gals that came to Sydney town and at the beach they trotted out in their bikinis! We were pleasantly surprised....and it was all quite modest I suspect now that there are plenty of young professing gals who wear bikinis at the beach..... Educate an old man, what are thongs? In Australia they're things that you wear on your feet, possibly otherwise known as flip flops, jandals etc in other lands Anyway, an Aussie would look funny wearing a 'thong' on their body! A thong bikini would be called a string bikini or a g-string I think. |
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Post by whyisitso on May 4, 2016 16:18:10 GMT -5
Erm, Boksburg, that was said tongue in cheek. In Australia a 'thong' is footwear. Flip flops, jandals... Not sure what else they're know by in other corners of the globe. For myself I'm more of a one piece, board shorts and rashie girl (basically that makes it look like I'm at the beach with shorts and t-shirt) This is my choice as I've grown to understand how hot and dangerous the sun is and the damage it will do to our skin here in Queensland. But, if someone wants to wear a bikini to the beach good luck to them. Usually if I see someone with not much on my first thought is 'melanoma'! Not, oh they look hot, let me lust after them! I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. No I don't think the original poster was referring to flip flops Boksburg. I was just allowing myself a moment of humour. And going by your covering up theory it should mean that no Muslim woman dressed in a burka would've ever suffered any kind of sexual assault. Are you one of those people who blames the victim if there's a sexual assault? Adult or child? I mean, a little girl could wear a pretty dress with frilly socks and that could be a 'stumbling block' to a pedophile couldn't it? |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 17:01:09 GMT -5
Educate an old man, what are thongs? In Australia they're things that you wear on your feet, possibly otherwise known as flip flops, jandals etc in other lands Anyway, an Aussie would look funny wearing a 'thong' on their body! A thong bikini would be called a string bikini or a g-string I think. Thank you for explaining; see, never too old to learn.  |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 4, 2016 17:06:05 GMT -5
No I don't think the original poster was referring to flip flops Boksburg. I was just allowing myself a moment of humour. And going by your covering up theory it should mean that no Muslim woman dressed in a burka would've ever suffered any kind of sexual assault. Are you one of those people who blames the victim if there's a sexual assault? Adult or child? I mean, a little girl could wear a pretty dress with frilly socks and that could be a 'stumbling block' to a pedophile couldn't it? I humbly suggest that you re-read your own post with the following thought in mind: lust is not sexual assault. You may decide you want to revise your statements. |
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 17:34:43 GMT -5
thong bikinis...
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 17:53:46 GMT -5
I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. I think that some of the issue here is that people are reacting to unfounded fears. For example, it is a fear among many that making pornography easily available to adults will result in an increase in sex crimes. The reality of the situation is that as pornography has increased in availability, sex crimes have either decreased or not increased. If exposure of skin and the wearing of what is considered sexually provocative really increases lust one would expect the beach or public swimming pools to show a huge increase in sexual crimes. This is not the case. So if there is no connection between what people wear and the reaction of the observers what is the point of worrying about it? What is the value of making believers fret and worry about trying to figure out what the HS considers to be modest? Shouldn't the purpose of religion be to allow people enjoy their life and be happy? |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on May 4, 2016 18:31:59 GMT -5
As you (rational) and I have both pointed out, lust is not the same thing as sexual assault and does not necessarily lead to sexual assault, it should now be clear that an increase in sexual crimes is not the primary concern with immodest clothing and that those who exhort their fellow believers to dress modestly are not thereby blaming the victims of sexual assault for the crimes that have been committed against them, as another poster here has suggested.
Rather, those who know that Christ Jesus laid down his life for them will lay aside our lives and our will for him, seeking only to do his will. There is no room for immorality such as typical beach dress in the life of one who belongs to God.
For those who love God, the purpose of life is not to please ourselves, but to please God. We lay aside our own will in loving submission to him.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 19:02:01 GMT -5
I don't think the original poster was thinking of flip flops ? True not every male is going to lust after a women that is dressed that way but we don't know who it might be a stumbling block to.It would be interesting to do a study and find out what % of men would not have any lusting thoughts and what % would. If we are guided by the Holy Spirit our way of dressing will reflect it. I think that some of the issue here is that people are reacting to unfounded fears. For example, it is a fear among many that making pornography easily available to adults will result in an increase in sex crimes. The reality of the situation is that as pornography has increased in availability, sex crimes have either decreased or not increased. If exposure of skin and the wearing of what is considered sexually provocative really increases lust one would expect the beach or public swimming pools to show a huge increase in sexual crimes. This is not the case. So if there is no connection between what people wear and the reaction of the observers what is the point of worrying about it? What is the value of making believers fret and worry about trying to figure out what the HS considers to be modest? Shouldn't the purpose of religion be to allow people enjoy their life and be happy? If a major % of men was not attracted to skimpy clad women or not clad at all the pornography industry would be out of business. |
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Post by rational on May 4, 2016 19:07:36 GMT -5
There is no room for immorality such as typical beach dress in the life of one who belongs to God. If someone was attracted by a certain kind of automobile would it be immoral to drive that model car? Judging someone to be immoral based on the clothing they wear is, in my opinion, wrong. What, exactly, is immoral about clothing of any type? |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 4, 2016 19:07:43 GMT -5
Well, when a professing person goes to the beach they should wear modest swimsuits... You don't know who is watching... I say, dress modestly all things in life.Nathan, what the world considers "modest" is not modest by God's standards. We should not dress by the world's standards immodesty, nor by the world's standards of "modesty", but true modesty as becomes a child of God. We should not be on the beach at all if we cannot maintain a consistent testimony of godliness there. , who do you see as "the world" ? |
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but actually I don't know.
