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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jan 22, 2016 9:35:32 GMT -5
I think this topic has run its course. It probably had run out weeks ago, and I was too stubborn to let go. Thanks everyone for participating, I did learn a little!
Over and out, good luck to everyone in their search.
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Post by Lee on Jan 22, 2016 14:17:52 GMT -5
Thank you, yours too, never ever despair! We must have come from and must be returning to, traveling, or journeying towards something no less intelligent, and no less magnificent than we are!
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Post by rational on Jan 22, 2016 15:10:58 GMT -5
Thank you, yours too, never ever despair! We must have come from and must be returning to, traveling, or journeying towards something no less intelligent, and no less magnificent than we are! How do you feel about the concept of nirvana for before and after birth? Use the literal meaning. |
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Post by Lee on Jan 22, 2016 18:59:59 GMT -5
I don't like it. In the resurrection we will be tasked with something. Its a common desire to want to retire from everything but seldom enjoyed once attained. Retired people, those fortunate enough to still have their health often say, "I don't know how I ever found the time to work". In other words, having an avocation or passion, roughly equates to enjoying a robust and rewarding state of mind, as well as existence.
Victory over the ego is no measure of beneficence. It is a deception to confuse the ego-less state with salvation. There is nothing wrong with ego, per se. Ego is essential to being a creature whom all of us are and I presume, shall always be.
I relate to a dying resurrected man. Someone who risked his life to say the truth. Someone who risked their life, to live unconventionally. Someone who conquered death. A man born to live, if there ever was one.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 22, 2016 22:49:51 GMT -5
I don't like it. In the resurrection we will be tasked with something. Its a common desire to want to retire from everything but seldom enjoyed once attained. Retired people, those fortunate enough to still have their health often say, "I don't know how I ever found the time to work". In other words, having an avocation or passion, roughly equates to enjoying a robust and rewarding state of mind, as well as existence. Victory over the ego is no measure of beneficence. It is a deception to confuse the ego-less state with salvation. There is nothing wrong with ego, per se. Ego is essential to being a creature whom all of us are and I presume, shall always be. I relate to a dying resurrected man. Someone who risked his life to say the truth. Someone who risked their life, to live unconventionally. Someone who conquered death. A man born to live, if there ever was one.
Living in the "here and now", -not the past nor the future, is all we have.
If we do our best to live that life to it's fullest & with consideration for our fellow travelers, -that should be enough.
It has it's own rewards now.
We never even think about any "life" we may have had before we were BORN.
So why do we even believe that we need a "life" or resurrection after we are DEAD?
The reason must be because of something along the line of fear of death or simply wishful thinking!
It makes absolutely no sense otherwise. |
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Post by rational on Jan 23, 2016 1:04:03 GMT -5
I relate to a dying resurrected man. Someone who risked his life to say the truth. Someone who risked their life, to live unconventionally. Someone who conquered death. A man born to live, if there ever was one. According to the christian belief, there was no risk. Jesus was god and was aware that his 'sacrifice' was not the real death that mortals suffer but was just symbolic. If you believe he was god he didn't conquer death - gods are immortal. |
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Post by Mary on Jan 23, 2016 2:12:11 GMT -5
I relate to a dying resurrected man. Someone who risked his life to say the truth. Someone who risked their life, to live unconventionally. Someone who conquered death. A man born to live, if there ever was one. According to the christian belief, there was no risk. Jesus was god and was aware that his 'sacrifice' was not the real death that mortals suffer but was just symbolic. If you believe he was god he didn't conquer death - gods are immortal. And Christians believe Jesus is immortal. He came alive and is not dead. |
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Post by rational on Jan 23, 2016 2:20:06 GMT -5
According to the christian belief, there was no risk. Jesus was god and was aware that his 'sacrifice' was not the real death that mortals suffer but was just symbolic. If you believe he was god he didn't conquer death - gods are immortal. And Christians believe Jesus is immortal. He came alive and is not dead. Yes, and that is where the issue arises. immortal living forever; never dying or decaying.An entity that cannot die has no reason to come alive. However, the comment I was making is that for a god the risk of death is removed. Dying is not a sacrifice since there is nothing sacrificed. Being immortal there is no reason to conquer death. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2016 16:01:40 GMT -5
And Christians believe Jesus is immortal. He came alive and is not dead. Yes, and that is where the issue arises. immortal living forever; never dying or decaying.An entity that cannot die has no reason to come alive. However, the comment I was making is that for a god the risk of death is removed. Dying is not a sacrifice since there is nothing sacrificed. Being immortal there is no reason to conquer death. for a God to experience a human death is something he sacrificed for he didn't have to do it you know... |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 23, 2016 16:09:37 GMT -5
I think this topic has run its course. It probably had run out weeks ago, and I was too stubborn to let go. Thanks everyone for participating, I did learn a little! Over and out, good luck to everyone in their search. Kinda sad about this. But, kudos to you, it was a heroic attempt at real dialog. It takes a lot to take on a fundamentalist, whatever the stripe. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 23, 2016 21:15:16 GMT -5
Thanks DD, if I've learnt anything it's the utter confusion of thoughts and beliefs that the worker system leaves as its legacy. Wherever you sit on the belief spectrum, there are few close where you are, and many way out on other extremities.
I wonder what any worker (or even ex worker) reading here would have made of it all? Could their teaching have been more clear or consistent, or would they be happy with the confused results?
If you or anybody else wants to use this space for another search for meaning, another topic, let us know. You are very welcome.
Thank you, and keep safe in the snow!
admin
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Post by ellie on Jan 24, 2016 3:19:31 GMT -5
Thanks DD, if I've learnt anything it's the utter confusion of thoughts and beliefs that the worker system leaves as its legacy. Wherever you sit on the belief spectrum, there are few close where you are, and many way out on other extremities. I wonder what any worker (or even ex worker) reading here would have made of it all? Could their teaching have been more clear or consistent, or would they be happy with the confused results? If you or anybody else wants to use this space for another search for meaning, another topic, let us know. You are very welcome. Thank you, and keep safe in the snow! admin Oh I don't know. I don't think any workers or ex-workers should be too concerned about their teachings by the confusion on these pages. To be honest, I'd be more worried if I saw a well indoctrinated consensus of opinion in this space! |
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Post by ellie on Jan 24, 2016 3:21:14 GMT -5
I think this topic has run its course. It probably had run out weeks ago, and I was too stubborn to let go. Thanks everyone for participating, I did learn a little! Over and out, good luck to everyone in their search. Thanks Dubious Disciple (xdc) for starting this topic. I have found a bunch of avenues that I might like to explore time permitting. Mostly I have learnt that I know almost nothing  , that I probably won’t be finding God in science . Oh and I figure, I might actually be trying to find meaning in life rather than what might more traditionally be thought of as God. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 24, 2016 4:48:52 GMT -5
I think this topic has run its course. It probably had run out weeks ago, and I was too stubborn to let go. Thanks everyone for participating, I did learn a little! Over and out, good luck to everyone in their search. Thanks Dubious Disciple (xdc) for starting this topic. I have found a bunch of avenues that I might like to explore time permitting. Mostly I have learnt that I know almost nothing , that I probably won’t be finding God in science . Oh and I figure, I might actually be trying to find meaning in life rather than what might more traditionally be thought of as God. |
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Post by ellie on Jan 24, 2016 6:47:38 GMT -5
Thanks Dubious Disciple (xdc) for starting this topic. I have found a bunch of avenues that I might like to explore time permitting. Mostly I have learnt that I know almost nothing , that I probably won’t be finding God in science . Oh and I figure, I might actually be trying to find meaning in life rather than what might more traditionally be thought of as God.I’m not disagreeing with you in essence, as a dictatorial god is not my kind of thing. Yet for others god, even a dictatorial one, might add great meaning to their life. Doesn’t the saying go one man’s truth is another man’s lie? |
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Post by placid-void on Jan 24, 2016 10:21:32 GMT -5
Thanks DD, if I've learnt anything it's the utter confusion of thoughts and beliefs that the worker system leaves as its legacy. Wherever you sit on the belief spectrum, there are few close where you are, and many way out on other extremities. I wonder what any worker (or even ex worker) reading here would have made of it all? Could their teaching have been more clear or consistent, or would they be happy with the confused results? If you or anybody else wants to use this space for another search for meaning, another topic, let us know. You are very welcome. Thank you, and keep safe in the snow! admin I know that it is not good form to publicly challenge an Administrator. However, in this case, I wonder if it might be appropriate to suggest a different model? I suggest that the diversity of views expressed in DD's study reflect the broad range of paths available to each person for our individual searches for "God" or evidence that there is no god. This model would suggest greater unity of belief within the F&W Community and the availability of a broader range of options to explore for all who have chosen to leave the Fellowship. This model is more consistent with my personal experience and is also consistent with the views expressed above by Ellie. Even the most superficial scan of the threads on the main board will reveal a nearly inexhaustible list of "high crimes and misdemeanors" already on the docket of the "worker system". Perhaps we could be charitable enough to allow the implications of the Administrator's view regarding the "worker system" in this instance be subsumed within "lesser included offenses". |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 24, 2016 16:44:31 GMT -5
Thanks DD, if I've learnt anything it's the utter confusion of thoughts and beliefs that the worker system leaves as its legacy. Wherever you sit on the belief spectrum, there are few close where you are, and many way out on other extremities. I wonder what any worker (or even ex worker) reading here would have made of it all? Could their teaching have been more clear or consistent, or would they be happy with the confused results? If you or anybody else wants to use this space for another search for meaning, another topic, let us know. You are very welcome. Thank you, and keep safe in the snow! admin Oh I don't know. I don't think any workers or ex-workers should be too concerned about their teachings by the confusion on these pages. To be honest, I'd be more worried if I saw a well indoctrinated consensus of opinion in this space! I couldn’t imagine a greater hell on earth (yes, right here, right now) than everybody seeing everything in exactly the same way. It would be like an orchestra playing the same note, on the same instrument, over and over and over. I like a diversity of viewpoints, and, in moments of clarity, it comforts me that life is unfolding precisely as it should as we (to borrow from Gibran) “march in majesty and proud submission towards the infinite” (or nothing, or something, – take your pick - it doesn’t much matter - it's just a word). What matters is that you are true to your own inner callings/promptings. (Thanks Admin, for that unintentional moment of clarity.) |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 24, 2016 18:54:55 GMT -5
One can find a lot of meaning in life, -celebrate life, -enjoy life, -help others to enjoy life and reach their potential in life often a lot easier when one is not being encumbered with the baggage of the rituals of a archaic demanding & dictatorial god. I’m not disagreeing with you in essence, as a dictatorial god is not my kind of thing. Yet for others god, even a dictatorial one, might add great meaning to their life. Doesn’t the saying go one man’s truth is another man’s lie?
Except for me it isn't as much about truth or lies, -but rather about what can give meaning to our lives.
When I left the 2x2's I looked around at other Christian religious beliefs.
I soon realized that all Christian denominations were basically the same and none could provide any proof for there even being a entity called "god" and I questioned their motive behind their "good" works.
None of them could ever give me the meaning to my life that I wanted.
After researching other non-Christian religions and I found the same thing.
If I was going to be the kind of person that I wanted to be; -honest, thoughtful of others, working for peace & justice, -but was only doing so because of dictatorial demand from some "god," -it would only be out of fear or wanting a reward from such a "god."
If I was really going to become the kind of person that would give any "meaning" to my life, -I didn't want to be coerced by some dictatorial god into doing so. |
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Post by rational on Jan 25, 2016 0:47:47 GMT -5
Yes, and that is where the issue arises. immortal living forever; never dying or decaying.An entity that cannot die has no reason to come alive. However, the comment I was making is that for a god the risk of death is removed. Dying is not a sacrifice since there is nothing sacrificed. Being immortal there is no reason to conquer death. for a God to experience a human death is something he sacrificed for he didn't have to do it you know... I think the point is that he didn't experience human death. He was, as you noted, a god. The biggest factor being that he knew he was immortal. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 25, 2016 6:40:39 GMT -5
I suggest that the diversity of views expressed in DD's study reflect the broad range of paths available to each person for our individual searches for "God" or evidence that there is no god. This model would suggest greater unity of belief within the F&W Community and the availability of a broader range of options to explore for all who have chosen to leave the Fellowship. This model is more consistent with my personal experience and is also consistent with the views expressed above by Ellie. Even the most superficial scan of the threads on the main board will reveal a nearly inexhaustible list of "high crimes and misdemeanors" already on the docket of the "worker system". Perhaps we could be charitable enough to allow the implications of the Administrator's view regarding the "worker system" in this instance be subsumed within "lesser included offenses". I wasn't very clear, was I. I wasn't giving the Administrator's view on anything, just trying to summarize the situation and wondering what any worker reading along would make of it all. As for wanting everyone to think the same - quelle horreur. In future I'll try and be clearer whether it's my personal view, or an attempt to summarize. |
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Post by ellie on Jan 25, 2016 6:58:17 GMT -5
I’m not disagreeing with you in essence, as a dictatorial god is not my kind of thing. Yet for others god, even a dictatorial one, might add great meaning to their life. Doesn’t the saying go one man’s truth is another man’s lie?
Except for me it isn't as much about truth or lies, -but rather about what can give meaning to our lives.
When I left the 2x2's I looked around at other Christian religious beliefs.
I soon realized that all Christian denominations were basically the same and none could provide any proof for there even being a entity called "god" and I questioned their motive behind their "good" works.
None of them could ever give me the meaning to my life that I wanted.
After researching other non-Christian religions and I found the same thing.
If I was going to be the kind of person that I wanted to be; -honest, thoughtful of others, working for peace & justice, -but was only doing so because of dictatorial demand from some "god," -it would only be out of fear or wanting a reward from such a "god."
If I was really going to become the kind of person that would give any "meaning" to my life, -I didn't want to be coerced by some dictatorial god into doing so.I think it is fantastic that you have worked out how to be the kind of person that you want to be. I also think it is great that there ‘God believers’ who have worked out the kind of people they want to be without the motivation being either fear or reward from that ‘God’. |
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Post by rational on Jan 25, 2016 10:30:52 GMT -5
As for wanting everyone to think the same - quelle horreur. Unless, of course, they are all thinking my way... |
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Post by rational on Jan 25, 2016 10:43:13 GMT -5
I don't like it. In the resurrection we will be tasked with something. Where does this idea originate? What tasks could an omnipotent omniscient being possible need from anyone? To suggest they need to be worshiped, feared, and praised paints them as a petty entity with an ego/self esteem issue.Is this what you took away as the meaning of nirvana? Given the behavior of the god recorded in the bible, this is very true Unconventionally. To live and not be under the fear that a single human misstep will mean eternal damnation. To be free from the myths and unproven beliefs of others. To take responsibility for one's actions and not blame/attribute them, both the positive and negative ones, to some paranormal entity. You mean that kind of unconventional life? |
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Post by Admin on Jan 25, 2016 16:18:03 GMT -5
As for wanting everyone to think the same - quelle horreur. Unless, of course, they are all thinking my way... Sounds heavenly... |
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 25, 2016 18:36:15 GMT -5
True.
Except for me it isn't as much about truth or lies, -but rather about what can give meaning to our lives.
When I left the 2x2's I looked around at other Christian religious beliefs.
I soon realized that all Christian denominations were basically the same and none could provide any proof for there even being a entity called "god" and I questioned their motive behind their "good" works.
None of them could ever give me the meaning to my life that I wanted.
After researching other non-Christian religions and I found the same thing.
If I was going to be the kind of person that I wanted to be; -honest, thoughtful of others, working for peace & justice, -but was only doing so because of dictatorial demand from some "god," -it would only be out of fear or wanting a reward from such a "god."
If I was really going to become the kind of person that would give any "meaning" to my life, -I didn't want to be coerced by some dictatorial god into doing so. I think it is fantastic that you have worked out how to be the kind of person that you want to be. I also think it is great that there ‘God believers’ who have worked out the kind of people they want to be without the motivation being either fear or reward from that ‘God’.
I know some in the 2x2's like that.
The ones that I know who seem to be able to accomplish that do so at the risk of their status as being on the "whole hearted" workers list. |
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Post by rational on Jan 25, 2016 19:02:47 GMT -5
Unless, of course, they are all thinking my way... Sounds heavenly... :) A godsend! |
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Post by Lee on Jan 27, 2016 1:53:51 GMT -5
I don't like it. In the resurrection we will be tasked with something. Its a common desire to want to retire from everything but seldom enjoyed once attained. Retired people, those fortunate enough to still have their health often say, "I don't know how I ever found the time to work". In other words, having an avocation or passion, roughly equates to enjoying a robust and rewarding state of mind, as well as existence. Victory over the ego is no measure of beneficence. It is a deception to confuse the ego-less state with salvation. There is nothing wrong with ego, per se. Ego is essential to being a creature whom all of us are and I presume, shall always be. I relate to a dying resurrected man. Someone who risked his life to say the truth. Someone who risked their life, to live unconventionally. Someone who conquered death. A man born to live, if there ever was one.
Living in the "here and now", -not the past nor the future, is all we have.
If we do our best to live that life to it's fullest & with consideration for our fellow travelers, -that should be enough.
It has it's own rewards now.
We never even think about any "life" we may have had before we were BORN.
So why do we even believe that we need a "life" or resurrection after we are DEAD?
The reason must be because of something along the line of fear of death or simply wishful thinking!
It makes absolutely no sense otherwise.There's quite a lot to fear if mankind does whatever he or she wants without any regard for the eternal consequences. Mankind may be the only species charged with the willful responsibility of its destiny. |
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Post by rational on Jan 27, 2016 2:29:59 GMT -5
There's quite a lot to fear if mankind does whatever he or she wants without any regard for the eternal consequences. You might be surprised to learn that many people don't live their lives governed by stygiophobia. There are people who have their own moral compass and are not driven by fear of what an imaginary supreme being might do to them if they 'misbehave'. Although, if they follow the examples provided in the bible there is little they can do that will not be acceptable, like having sex with the wife of a soldier, and then arranging for the soldier to be killed. Or, if you model your life after god, killing an innocent child as a punishment to the couple who committed adultery and had the husband killed. Murder rates are actually lower in more secular nations and higher in more religious nations where belief in God is widespread. The top 50 safest cities in the world, nearly all are in relatively non-religious countries. States that are highly religious, such as Louisiana and Alabama, have higher murder rates than least religious states in the US, Vermont and Oregon, for example. Who made that charge? |
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, that I probably won’t be finding God in science . Oh and I figure, I might actually be trying to find meaning in life rather than what might more traditionally be thought of as God.