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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2015 12:27:27 GMT -5
I mentioned the name William Irvine in friendly conversation with a worker a few weeks ago, and the tension and discomfort level increased significantly, so just dropped it, and concluded that for sure , the history of the church was NOT open to discussion at all. The worker, a friend of ours, was kinda giving us a ``shot``, about how he had been in the city, and looking through a telephone book and counting how many different Mennonite churches there were in Winnipeg alone, indicating there was no unity and so had to split. That is how Willie`s name came into the conversation, about how he did the `splits``.lol Oh, well, no biggie, we just cant`t talk about that particular elephant in the room, so we talk more wind and weather , and all kinds of other good stuff. Cheers BTW- really good fella, this worker, and we appreciate each other, and he still comes to see us and that is SPECIAL. I believe the thought is that we just didn`t get it`. Alvin You are right about this Nathan. Most Workers are as much in the Dark about Irvine as my parents were...that's why we were in the dark about him. I think the reason its an elephant in the room when you talk about it is everyone has heard about those horrible Websites that we are never to go on. When you bring WI, or our history up, it indicates that you have been reading some of those taboo sites. |
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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2015 12:36:50 GMT -5
howitis doesn't owe anyone here anything. Who is denying history? I think it's so interesting to see so many here get up-in-arms and outright reject something that's outside the activist exe box. As Cherie's motto states "Condemnation without investigation is ignorance." We are asked to believe personal exe stories we cannot personally verify - why not extend howitis the same consideration? Instead she is outright condemned. That's what makes this place such a joke, the hypocrisy of it all. Wow. What is there to "verify" Maybe I missed it. I'm asking. |
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 21, 2015 12:37:45 GMT -5
Good you can talk about it, nathan, even if we come to different conclusions. Thanks. All the best to you, bro. Thought of you last night, as it was in the news that some rich guy is financing scientists to set up listening devices to try to detect sounds of aliens communicating. Spending millions
Alvin
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 21, 2015 12:41:43 GMT -5
howitis: Wondering what view your parents held of WmI? Did they view him as a prophet raised up? The starter? Another worker? And what was their take on his being put out of the work/leadership? This is not a trick question...I'm always curious about the way WmI was presented to those who were brought up in a household where WmI was common knowledge (which I was not, as you stated). Wondering if any of your parents or grandparents early workers? Often (not always!) it is families with early worker ancestors who were well aware of WmI, et al, and passed it down to succeeding generations. CK We got the book from our elder right after it was published. Irvine wrote a book, that was about it. It wasn't a big deal, there was no condemnation or even criticism of Irvine, or his book, that I ever heard from our elder or my parents. I personally never heard any criticism or condemnation of Irvine or "The Secret Sect" from workers either. ? Do you mean Irvine Grey? |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 21, 2015 12:43:40 GMT -5
We got the book from our elder right after it was published. Irvine wrote a book, that was about it. It wasn't a big deal, there was no condemnation or even criticism of Irvine, or his book, that I ever heard from our elder or my parents. I personally never heard any criticism or condemnation of Irvine or "The Secret Sect" from workers either. ? Do you mean Irvine Grey? I meant Parker, sorry about that. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 21, 2015 12:53:02 GMT -5
howitis doesn't owe anyone here anything. Who is denying history? I think it's so interesting to see so many here get up-in-arms and outright reject something that's outside the activist exe box. As Cherie's motto states "Condemnation without investigation is ignorance." We are asked to believe personal exe stories we cannot personally verify - why not extend howitis the same consideration? Instead she is outright condemned. That's what makes this place such a joke, the hypocrisy of it all. Wow. What is there to "verify" Maybe I missed it. I'm asking. The story or statement that the person is telling or making. There was a huge discussion recently because someone said to Dennis "there are always two sides to a story". The attitude is we are supposed to accept all exe stories and statements on their word alone. If we don't and ask any question or make any comment we're accused of "blaming the victim" "rending pearls" etc. It is interesting that the same people wanting their stories and statements believed as if they were absolute universal bedrock truths are the ones making demands to howitis. |
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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2015 13:09:54 GMT -5
Irvine wrote a book?? Do you mean Irvine Grey? I meant Parker, sorry about that. Jesse, I'm glad to hear that. I think that everyone should handle it in this same manner. I'm positive that like me, if it was just talked about, EVERYONE would embrace it. In fact, if it wasn't taboo, many friends would love to know our history, and probably make trips to Ireland to even see where some of our original church meetings were held. It would be really cool, and probably a spiritual experience. Many talk about those first Workers that brought the Gospel to the United States in 1905. The bible goes through great lengths to tell us our history - up until the time period it covers. I would love it if it could just be an open discussion. Nathan claims we use to be the Waldensians....I think...correct me if I'm wrong Nathan (one sentence please - no cut & Paste). At least he loves to talk about it. I think Cherie has found that we broke off of the Faith Mission. Either way, it seems it was some kind of a break-away by someone...or name changed to no-name....or??...I loved reading John Longs Journal. I think many friends would love it as well. It's an incredibly documentation of our history. If I were to send it around by e-mail....I don't know what the ramifications would be. At the least, my motivations would surely be questioned. It's a bummer. Oh well. I don't think this is going to change anytime real soon. Maybe next generation. |
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 21, 2015 13:32:20 GMT -5
What is there to "verify" Maybe I missed it. I'm asking. The story or statement that the person is telling or making. There was a huge discussion recently because someone said to Dennis "there are always two sides to a story". The attitude is we are supposed to accept all exe stories and statements on their word alone. If we don't and ask any question or make any comment we're accused of "blaming the victim" "rending pearls" etc. It is interesting that the same people wanting their stories and statements believed as if they were absolute universal bedrock truths are the ones making demands to howitis. . I thought that was the intent of the questions, to encourage how it is to tell the "other side" of the story, or add whatever information was missing Alvin |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 21, 2015 13:32:34 GMT -5
I've heard workers, and friends talk about our history during convention meetings. As far as a connection to Waldenses it would be a spiritual one; Read page 309 of the History of the Christian Church by W.M. Blackburn I posted -->> here << - it offers a clue why there was no "open ministry" outside of official denominations for so many years, well thousands of years. Those that tried in the mid 1100s-1200s were severely suppressed for example; the 1229 Council of Toulouse which seems to have placed "every layman daring to possess a Bible, now first forbidden to the laity by this Council," in "peril of the rack, the dungeon, and the stake." - for possessing a Bible! The specific intent seemed to be to wipe out those not willing to be under the thumb of official Church authority. History of the Christian Church has an interesting comment about the "Waldenses" (or Vaudios); "it is said that a traveler from Antwerp to Florence could lodge every night with some Waldensian brother or sympathizer." Hmmm, sounds familiar.  There were groups like this in various countries, Albigenses, Henricians, Good-Men, Arnoldists. When the official Church swung into action against them it was ugly. "Various councils grew more inquisitorial, and the customs of burning heretics alive was matured. "In the year 1183 many heretics were burned alive in Flanders."" A siege in 1209 against "the poor people -- Petrobrussians, Hendicians, and Albigenses" might be where the phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" comes from. The papal legate's advice to the soldiers was, "Slay them all; The Lord knoweth them that are his!". And that's what happened, army of nearly 300,000 attacked and "The swarming misbelievers of Providence were almost literally drowned in [their] own blood." And it went on and on; "Inquisitors had been at work for two centuries with all their horrid enginery." History of the Christian Church offers a very small glimpse of the Dark Ages our freedom of religion was born out of - this history should always be part of our conversation now. All the people subject to this ruthless killing and torture tried to do, their "heresy", was go back to what they thought was the original instructions or blueprint. They read their Bibles and understood what it meant that the veil was rent. In my opinion what they did is not much different than what Irvine and the early workers did. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 21, 2015 13:38:48 GMT -5
It's really a matter if who's telling the story isn't it and what answers the questioner is seeking! For instance I know of some people who would describe me as rebellious, the old ladies I assist say I'm kind, my children at times have said I'm cranky, my paraplegic friend says I'm a good Christian lady, drug addicts, women suffering from DV and those from CSA abuse say I'm a blessing.........yet apart from the rebellious and cranky bit I tend to think they could all be wrong!!!! So being sufficiently rebellious enough and my parents not hiding stuff from me, I set out to find out a few things for myself, did I go to the workers, professing folk, no, Ross I'm sure your parents are/were wonderful, but they certainly weren't who I wanted to test my theories on. Instead I went to where Doug Parker had his business interests, lived and worked amongst those people who were once his people, At the time I did it for my own purpose( I could say God 'placed me there, but I know I persued it), my findings were for me, my future family and are now for my grandchildren, and they are recorded only for them. What is done with it after I die will be up to them. At no time did Doug Parker receive hate mail from me, my findings achieved a purpose although it was not the one I intended. Anybody could have done the same thing, most didn't!! Roselyn it doesn't matter how old I was in the 70's,suffice to say I was rebellious and on a mission and I now have grandchildren. Ross I'm not sure about private funerals people will draw their own conclusions. I am only an occasional reader/participant in this forum. But my BS detector is on full alert here. If you had issues with what Doug and Helen researched/wrote, why would you not investigate their sources? WHY would you investigate the man? (People who have made the most significant contributions to advances on this planet have been fallible human beings. Their fallibility in no way takes away from what they have contributed.)
WHY would you make vague insinuations about his character and credibility? WHY would you share (if significant) your findings only with your children and your grandchildren? That makes you a terrible citizen of the planet. I'm sure that God will have a word or two with you over that, when you get there. For the moment, you have zero credibility with me. Zero. If you have anything to refute the weight of Doug and Helen's and Cherie's investigations, we are all ears. There is a world-wide forum here waiting to be enlightened. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 21, 2015 13:40:42 GMT -5
The link in my previous post is dead, you can find an online copy of page 309 of History of the Christian Church by W.M. Blackburn by clicking he link in this post; Come on, you "historians", is this true? Hey bert it is interesting to watch what historians don't research as much as what they do. ~ -> The History of the Christian Church published in 1879 says Peter Waldo did not start the Waldeneses. If you start on -> page 309 you can read what Blackburn says about Peter Waldo and the Waldeneses who according to Blackburn were not started by Peter Waldo. Blackburn writes about the Waldeneses specifically on page 311-313. The book is very interesting in that it covers some of the history of how many were killed in that time frame because they were heretics, in fact at one point "laymen" couldn't even posses a Bible, that alone was grounds for torture and death (page 309). People ought to read books like this so they get an idea how dark the dark ages really were. This is history that's getting lost. Read the whole chapter starting on -> page 301 and covers the years 1085-1350. You can easily understand why little history of anything but Catholic history survived those and subsequent years. What commented about God having one way, well the Catholics tried that, probably because that's been a desire man has had forever, one world government. Many have tried it, all have failed. It will be tried again, and will fail. If you believe the Bible the only one world government that will work is the one Jesus sets up when he returns. I wouldn't be surprised the reformers in the late 1800s including the early workers read this book and many others like it. Obviously from the few linked pages of The History of the Christian Church alone the idea of going two and two and meetings in homes didn't originate with Irvine like some imply. For whatever it's worth I don't doubt there were home churches and homless ministers from Acts until today. |
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Post by hberry on Jul 21, 2015 13:49:31 GMT -5
I meant Parker, sorry about that. Jesse, I'm glad to hear that. I think that everyone should handle it in this same manner. I'm positive that like me, if it was just talked about, EVERYONE would embrace it. In fact, if it wasn't taboo, many friends would love to know our history, and probably make trips to Ireland to even see where some of our original church meetings were held. It would be really cool, and probably a spiritual experience. Many talk about those first Workers that brought the Gospel to the United States in 1905. The bible goes through great lengths to tell us our history - up until the time period it covers. I would love it if it could just be an open discussion. Nathan claims we use to be the Waldensians....I think...correct me if I'm wrong Nathan (one sentence please - no cut & Paste). At least he loves to talk about it. I think Cherie has found that we broke off of the Faith Mission. Either way, it seems it was some kind of a break-away by someone...or name changed to no-name....or??...I loved reading John Longs Journal. I think many friends would love it as well. It's an incredibly documentation of our history. If I were to send it around by e-mail....I don't know what the ramifications would be. At the least, my motivations would surely be questioned. It's a bummer. Oh well. I don't think this is going to change anytime real soon. Maybe next generation. My Mom read Long's journal and really enjoyed it. She'd always believed the fellowship had to start in the late 1890's in Ireland as she could never find anyone who knew anyone in the fellowship beyond the late 1890's Irish folks. After she read Long's journal, she said "I guess I never knew what 'non-denominational' really meant.' She was sobered by Long's willingness to stick to his convictions despite what it cost him. Mom said when "some book" was published in the '70s, the workers were telling everyone to throw "the book" out if anyone sent it to you. She really wanted to read whatever it was they were talking about (the timeless lure of the forbidden apple) but no one would tell her the title--so, pre-Google, it was a little difficult to track down.  As to when this unwillingness to know will change....I'm not sure it can, and that's too bad. Like you, I found the history fascinating and uplifting. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Jul 21, 2015 13:51:03 GMT -5
The story or statement that the person is telling or making. There was a huge discussion recently because someone said to Dennis "there are always two sides to a story". The attitude is we are supposed to accept all exe stories and statements on their word alone. If we don't and ask any question or make any comment we're accused of "blaming the victim" "rending pearls" etc. It is interesting that the same people wanting their stories and statements believed as if they were absolute universal bedrock truths are the ones making demands to howitis. . I thought that was the intent of the questions, to encourage how it is to tell the "other side" of the story, or add whatever information was missing Alvin It is, but it's not allowed for friends and workers to ask for the other side of the story, or suggest that both sides be told. That's the problem with activist exe posts, statements, and publications, including Parker. They rarely talk about anything that is good and right. When it's only the bad that gets published you see extremely one-sided comments like this on a youtube video. where did they get those ideas? From activist exe websites and publications. |
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 21, 2015 14:23:43 GMT -5
. I thought that was the intent of the questions, to encourage how it is to tell the "other side" of the story, or add whatever information was missing Alvin It is, but it's not allowed for friends and workers to ask for the other side of the story, or suggest that both sides be told. That's the problem with activist exe posts, statements, and publications, including Parker. They rarely talk about anything that is good and right. When it's only the bad that gets published you see extremely one-sided comments like this on a youtube video. where did they get those ideas? From activist exe websites and publications. Thanks Jesse, I suggest that probably the best way to refute lies, like the one you gave as an example that the workers are a satan sect, is with facts, and don't beat around the bush. Tell them the truth-period. If people STILL want to believe a lie, that's their choice, but at least give them the information that the f&w church desire to follow Jesus, NOT Satan, and tell them the truth, that yes, William Irvine played a BIG role in starting the church we are a part of today. IF you try to cover up at all about William Irvine and his important role, people doubt your honesty and integrity, will be suspicious of everything you say, and then will believe a STUPID lie like you are Satan followers or other nonsense, from people who might actually have an agenda of hatred or whatever against your church. I have not heard from an exe , that states you are a "satan sect". I have noticed NUMEROUS times , when workers and friends are spoken positively about and honestly about, that MANY exes chime right in and totally agree and appreciate the good people and good memories and good segments of the church. I agree, the bad does get spoken about more, as people feel a need for change, from bad to good. The good is not needed to be changed from good to bad, so leave that be. I have LOTS of good memories and treasure the people in your church- PERIOD I'll take this opportunity. We have a granddaughter born with cleft palate , lip, and two years ago, her parents got a call from the convention grounds from one of the friends, who they had never met or heard of . Grampa was at convention and telling this visitng person about his granddaughter, and this person, who was also born with a cleft palate, took it upon himself to phone our children and encourage them and just share his lifes experience and love with them. IT was an awesome visit they had, and I have tears right now thinking of this person whom we have never met to this day and the encouragement he was to our family, including an invitation to visit their place. AWESOME people , with flaws like we all do. Just because we don't always share the same views, does NOT make us enemies. All the best in your journey in life, and if I have spoken untruth to you or anyone else here, I am sorry and would like to be corrected. Thank you Alvin Alvin |
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Post by fixit on Jul 21, 2015 14:53:36 GMT -5
I'm positive that like me, if it was just talked about, EVERYONE would embrace it. In fact, if it wasn't taboo, many friends would love to know our history, and probably make trips to Ireland to even see where some of our original church meetings were held. It would be really cool, and probably a spiritual experience. Many talk about those first Workers that brought the Gospel to the United States in 1905. Perhaps that is why early workers tried to avoid the subject? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 14:59:44 GMT -5
Alvin, I cannot even recall all the time I have posted something favorable about a companion, or "professing experience" or even "convention." I do know those obviously within the group who ignore it, attempting to focus only upon facts with details I have provided regarding my perception of error. An exception is Emy, and ma'am, I than you for that!
Thank you for commenting on this, Alvin. If I were welcomed to do so, I would have attended some of the convention nearby long ago. I am not, and have no desire to be escorted off the premises by the police, which is what I suspect would happen if I did just show up. Very glad for your experience. For a long time after my excommunication we would invite family and friends only to be flatly turned down, and certainly not invited in return.
Then when my lovely wife Ylva died, at her memorial a worker who knew her well from early life on, coming to see her nearly every home visit, gets up and denies even knowing her "very well," saying not one kind thing in memory of her, but to condemn those by innuendo who did not keep true to 2&2ism to the very end, as a type of warning to any of the 2&2 preacher group in attendance! What a way to behave at someone's memorial service, for their spouse to remember forever. "Sniping?" Anyone saying recounting these memories are "sniping" have no clue what a "sniper" is and does, from the wearing of a "gillie suit" on down!
DJ
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 21, 2015 15:04:03 GMT -5
Boy the confirmation bias blinders can get ratcheted on pretty tight! Most of you aren't comprehending in the slightest what howitis is saying. It's whooshing right over your heads. Remember Cherie's reminders about the fallacy of too few alternatives - if the data doesn't fit the bias of the made up mind it doesn't exist. That's what you are doing, in addition to "killing the messenger" (which is most likely what you are going to do to me now).
She isn't SAYING anything!
She is simple making insinuations, - suggestive or disparaging innuendos with nothing as to reference to back them up!
Jesse, Maybe you can explain what howitis means since it seems to be just "whooshing" right over my head.
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Post by slowtosee on Jul 21, 2015 15:24:41 GMT -5
Alvin, I cannot even recall all the time I have posted something favorable about a companion, or "professing experience" or even "convention." I do know those obviously within the group who ignore it, attempting to focus only upon facts with details I have provided regarding my perception of error. An exception is Emy, and ma'am, I than you for that!
Thank you for commenting on this, Alvin. If I were welcomed to do so, I would have attended some of the convention nearby long ago. I am not, and have no desire to be escorted off the premises by the police, which is what I suspect would happen if I did just show up. Very glad for your experience. For a long time after my excommunication we would invite family and friends only to be flatly turned down, and certainly not invited in return.
Then when my lovely wife Ylva died, at her memorial a worker who knew her well from early life on, coming to see her nearly every home visit, gets up and denies even knowing her "very well," saying not one kind thing in memory of her, but to condemn those by innuendo who did not keep true to 2&2ism to the very end, as a type of warning to any of the 2&2 preacher group in attendance! What a way to behave at someone's memorial service, for their spouse to remember forever. "Sniping?" Anyone saying recounting these memories are "sniping" have no clue what a "sniper" is and does, from the wearing of a "gillie suit" on down!
DJ . Thanks for your posts, Dennis. We have experienced some very miserable events, but nothing compared to yours. I am sorry. I have been to the convention to on grounds here numerous times after our exeing, as family has used our camper etc. To help set up, and there are definitely some furtive looks go our way but as soon as they recognize you are there to help, not disrupt, we have been treated very very graciously. Alvib |
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2015 15:26:18 GMT -5
Firstly no one said you have to read or believe exes stories, jesse. It's up to you.
Sounds like a good book you posted about.
The Waldensians trace their own founder to Waldo no matter what other people say.
No Irvine did not start the 2x2 ministry. He started your church who happen to believe that going out in pairs is a command of Jesus. Missionaries and people have been going pairs preaching the Gospel long before Irvine came along. Most people prefer to go places with a companion rather than alone.
No one has a problem with howitis saying she has dirt, the problem is she says she has something but won't say what it is. If she has what she considers the truth why just say she has something but not say what it is? How can we decide without information.
I asked her if she got the info from professing people and she has not answered that. Do you say I have some info. about a person but not say what it is? Sounds like game playing to me.
Nathan please stop sabotaging the thread with pages of the same old stuff. Just give links.
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2015 15:46:49 GMT -5
1. Take it up with the Waldesians themselves.
Adding a name to the story does not make it so.
2. John Long did not send converts in their missions back to the Pharisees, he sent them to Christian churches the same as those who converted to Christianity in the Bible would have been sent to existing churches. If you are starting up a new denomination then of course you will form break away churches but no need to if there's already churches there. That is what I like about the Faith Mission.
3. Don't sabotage this thread on this stuff, put links.
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Post by jondough on Jul 21, 2015 16:03:23 GMT -5
BTW
Waldensians are still in business.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 16:06:50 GMT -5
"just post links!"
What a wonderful idea, Mary. Seems it is impossible for some to do? Even with repeated suggestion? Notice that request in the pasted copy was deleted.... I apologize Nathan you did not delete it, it was added after your copy and paste. Dennis
Personally, I like the idea, because I never have to follow them to see what some other person has put on utube! And now, when it is posted here, I have largely just learned I have to skip over/ignore it, as simply not interested in anyone's attempts at revisionist history, nor their attempts to present fiction or unprovable facts as reality.
Smile, where oh where is rational when we need him?
Glad dmg has not forsaken us in this thread...
DMG, do you know how I remember those initials and think of your handle? "Do Much Good!" Smile!
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Post by emy on Jul 21, 2015 16:59:48 GMT -5
Jesse, I'm glad to hear that. I think that everyone should handle it in this same manner. I'm positive that like me, if it was just talked about, EVERYONE would embrace it. In fact, if it wasn't taboo, many friends would love to know our history, and probably make trips to Ireland to even see where some of our original church meetings were held. It would be really cool, and probably a spiritual experience. Many talk about those first Workers that brought the Gospel to the United States in 1905. The bible goes through great lengths to tell us our history - up until the time period it covers. I would love it if it could just be an open discussion. Nathan claims we use to be the Waldensians....I think...correct me if I'm wrong Nathan (one sentence please - no cut & Paste). At least he loves to talk about it. I think Cherie has found that we broke off of the Faith Mission. Either way, it seems it was some kind of a break-away by someone...or name changed to no-name....or??...I loved reading John Longs Journal. I think many friends would love it as well. It's an incredibly documentation of our history. If I were to send it around by e-mail....I don't know what the ramifications would be. At the least, my motivations would surely be questioned. It's a bummer. Oh well. I don't think this is going to change anytime real soon. Maybe next generation. Maybe this is the very reason, though there could easily be others, that the workers who remained in the fellowship (didn't break away or get asked to leave) were mostly quiet about it how it "began." The intent was not to focus on men or place, but to focus on Jesus and the message (gospel) he brought to Galilee and other places. |
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Post by Mary on Jul 21, 2015 17:06:04 GMT -5
That's an excuse for the cover up Emy. Honesty always pays.
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Post by emy on Jul 21, 2015 17:26:03 GMT -5
That's an excuse for the cover up Emy. Honesty always pays. If it isn't a coverup, then no excuse is needed. I see Fixit had a similar thought!! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2015 17:49:35 GMT -5
I'm positive that like me, if it was just talked about, EVERYONE would embrace it. In fact, if it wasn't taboo, many friends would love to know our history, and probably make trips to Ireland to even see where some of our original church meetings were held. It would be really cool, and probably a spiritual experience. Many talk about those first Workers that brought the Gospel to the United States in 1905. Perhaps that is why early workers tried to avoid the subject?
Let's be honest.
I have a friend who found her trip to Israel 'spiritual' and
another who found the spirit when she 'walked the Camino' in
Spain.
Those sorts of "spiritual experiences" do not belong in our
church: the 'spirit' is the spirit, not some crutch.
There's no practice of this in the bible - at least not
amongst God's people.
In fact we are told that Moses' grave was hidden, and the
bronze serpent ground up to prevent people using these as
spiritual crutches. |
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Post by snow on Jul 21, 2015 17:53:20 GMT -5
BTW Waldensians are still in business. Yes and their beliefs are more RCC than F&W. They believed in infant baptism and substantiation. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 21, 2015 17:56:35 GMT -5
That's an excuse for the cover up Emy. Honesty always pays. Have you always been honest Mary? I think if we are honest we'll admit that sometimes we keep things to ourselves because we feel that is for the best. I agree that there should have been more honesty about the beginnings, especially from the 1980s when Doug Parker's book was published. However, I'm not convinced that the coverup was as orchestrated as some exes claim. Early workers were focused on preaching the gospel of the first century - not trying to convince people that their church had an unbroken line from that era. |
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There were groups like this in various countries, Albigenses, Henricians, Good-Men, Arnoldists. When the official Church swung into action against them it was ugly. "Various councils grew more inquisitorial, and the customs of burning heretics alive was matured. "In the year 1183 many heretics were burned alive in Flanders."" A siege in 1209 against "the poor people -- Petrobrussians, Hendicians, and Albigenses" might be where the phrase, "Kill them all and let God sort them out" comes from. The papal legate's advice to the soldiers was, "Slay them all; The Lord knoweth them that are his!". And that's what happened, army of nearly 300,000 attacked and "The swarming misbelievers of Providence were almost literally drowned in [their] own blood." And it went on and on; "Inquisitors had been at work for two centuries with all their horrid enginery." 
