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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:05:03 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. My children aren't deprived of music. They play instruments, sing hymns etc. We just don't have radios, dvd's, ipods or whatever people use to listen to songs nowadays. Playing instruments, even the pots and pans, is a good thing. Another question - what do you have, for example, against something like a MP3 or DVD player where you control the content? There are many sources for counting silly songs that children like. How would a child who has never had meat know to ask for it? It sounds like your children have not had a music player to use so what would they ask for? Or have they seen such devices at their friends? No radio/player in the car? Sounds like me growing up with no TV/radio/record player (Yes, I am that old!). My children are almost grown up - way past the stage of "counting silly songs" or playing with the pots and pans! When they were toddlers they had some toys that played tunes. They've seen such devices at school. They probably know more about what technology is available than I do. No, we don't play anything in the car. I know some people who play recordings of hymns on car journeys but we don't.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:10:31 GMT -5
This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. Music is such a soothing inspiring delightful encounter that stirs the soul. It is a part of our heritage our being to sore and be lifted up. The bible talks about music in heaven. For any human being to be denied the joy of music is incredibly sad. My parents had lovely singing voices. Dad played the guitar and mouth organ. Even without radio and TV we had some music in our lives. For me it wasnt enough. Worship is about making music to the lord. Some of the old hymns music originated in Pubs. I just see this kind of denial odd. Another form of control. I also enjoy the kind of music that stirs the soul, and that is in harmony with heaven. That's why we sing and play hymns. I don't believe that the music popular today is the type of stuff that stirs the soul, particularly the lyrics, although I can only base that judgement on what I've heard in shops and restaurants.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:39:18 GMT -5
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. My children aren't deprived of music. They play instruments, sing hymns etc. We just don't have radios, dvd's, ipods or whatever people use to listen to songs nowadays. I don't agree with your statement that children wouldn't ask for things that they were never given. I know some kids that are always begging for things that they don't get at home. Presume your kids have computers and access to the internet Far worse than TVs, radios, DVDs etc They share the family computer, but they mostly don't have unsupervised access to the internet yet. So far they've only used the internet to research school projects. Like every other child, they have to learn to stay safe on the internet, and not to use it for anything inappropriate.
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 9:14:51 GMT -5
Ross ~ That hymn, "Cease Not" was one of my favorite hymns and I was saddened to see it removed from the hymnal. However, I guess the wording just had to go with the anti-Trinitarian beliefs of the workers who contributed to its contents?
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Post by What Hat on May 22, 2015 9:33:51 GMT -5
See, life is full of surprises The workers don't have lordship over my life. I have a deep respect for their example, guidance and advice, but Jesus has the lordship over my life. The workers are responsible to warn us of things that could endanger our souls, it's up to us whether to heed them or not. We do not have a dictatorial leadership here. I think you find it hard to admit that there are workers who have a servant's heart, and there are people enjoying the fellowship and not at all burdened by leadership To answer your question, I find it perfectly acceptable, and desirable, that my Creator and my Redeemer have power over my life. I'm sure you're right in saying that dictatorial leadership is one of the tell-tale signs of a cult, but I'm not in a cult, and never have been. Felicity ~ The person I quoted earlier in my post is a present friend who has professed over 40 years and he tends to disagree with you, although still within the fellowship. He also resides in an area where friends tend to have more freedom than found in other locations in the States and overseas. Yet, he does admit to seeing the abuse of power and controlling behavior of workers over decades and only speaks of things changing within perhaps the last 10 years for the better. That's one reason why I asked you how long you had professed and wondered in what area you lived. By the way, you didn't reveal your country or regional location in your response, but I assume it's in a more liberal locality? Perhaps Colorado where the laws are not as restrictive as elsewhere within the 2x2's ~ at least in the area of divorce and remarriage? It's funny how we see things, Faune. I know the person you are quoting quite well, and am trying to relate your description to felicity's, both of whose I accept as reasonably accurate. The quote above refers to dictatorial workers where they are found, and not to the general practice of workers in all cases. To me, it's an excellent example of how people build a case and distort what they hear from others. And how we extrapolate from our specific experience to build a general case especially when there is emotion involved.
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 9:37:48 GMT -5
Felicity ~ From what I have heard on TMB relating to the 2x2's, it seems that TV's, radios, computer laptops, and a number of other friendly electronic devices are now allowed in friends' homes in comparison to the old days when Rational and I were exposed to the 2x2's. It appears that the workers are lightening up on the reins in micromanaging the friends, as I brought out earlier? Perhaps this has a lot to do with their inability to control the flow of information these days due to Internet? In fact, I can remember when Internet came into play how the workers railed on it at convention as being like the worst evil known to man. For sure, times a changing in the 2x2's and perhaps before long the "walls of Jericho" will come tumbling down from these worldly influences?
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 9:47:28 GMT -5
Felicity ~ The person I quoted earlier in my post is a present friend who has professed over 40 years and he tends to disagree with you, although still within the fellowship. He also resides in an area where friends tend to have more freedom than found in other locations in the States and overseas. Yet, he does admit to seeing the abuse of power and controlling behavior of workers over decades and only speaks of things changing within perhaps the last 10 years for the better. That's one reason why I asked you how long you had professed and wondered in what area you lived. By the way, you didn't reveal your country or regional location in your response, but I assume it's in a more liberal locality? Perhaps Colorado where the laws are not as restrictive as elsewhere within the 2x2's ~ at least in the area of divorce and remarriage? It's funny how we see things, Faune. I know the person you are quoting quite well, and am trying to relate your description to felicity's, both of whose I accept as reasonably accurate. The quote above refers to dictatorial workers where they are found, and not to the general practice of workers in all cases. To me, it's an excellent example of how people build a case and distort what they hear from others. And how we extrapolate from our specific experience to build a general case especially when there is emotion involved. What Hat ~ I didn't take anything out of that person's quote and was not trying to distort anything. However, I agree that not all workers are bent on being dictators, although there has been more than a few in overseer positions over the years. From this person's posting, I felt he was referring more to overseers in positions of power than the workers under them. At least, that's how I interpreted it. Also, in his reference to the early workers, there was definitely a "power struggle" involved here and excommunications were often the result of not coming in line with their recommendations. I cannot make statements regarding the present day, but from what I have heard from others on TMB, the rules have really lightened up a lot in a number of areas and the friends are becoming more "worldly" themselves compared to outside their fold. Here are the two quotes I shared with Felicity on Page 8 of this thread as well. We were discussing different overseers at the time on this Facebook board and their style of leadership, by the way. However, workers in the past definitely "micro-managed" the friends and often dictated to them what was acceptable and what they could have in their home and still take part in meeting. The same goes with dress and hair styles for women, although men got off quite easily in that area. That's basically the 2x2's and workers involvement in the lives of friends that I remember from professing days between 1965 and 1995. However, it was 20 years ago when I left and things seem to have changed in some "cosmetic areas" since then. However, the "one and only way" seems to still in place and being taught as was incorporated back in 1904 under William Irvine in the form of the "Living Witness Doctrine." The HB reference is to an overseer in Northwestern USA.
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Post by What Hat on May 22, 2015 11:17:37 GMT -5
This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. My children aren't deprived of music. They play instruments, sing hymns etc. We just don't have radios, dvd's, ipods or whatever people use to listen to songs nowadays. I don't agree with your statement that children wouldn't ask for things that they were never given. I know some kids that are always begging for things that they don't get at home. Somehow mankind was able to get by for centuries without those devices, and still produce the music of Beethoven, Mozart and Johann Sebastian Bach. So, I'll go so far with you as to agreeing that those devices are not strictly necessary. But you know, if you don't have those things today, guess what? According to some you are in a cult.
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Post by What Hat on May 22, 2015 11:34:30 GMT -5
It's funny how we see things, Faune. I know the person you are quoting quite well, and am trying to relate your description to felicity's, both of whose I accept as reasonably accurate. The quote above refers to dictatorial workers where they are found, and not to the general practice of workers in all cases. To me, it's an excellent example of how people build a case and distort what they hear from others. And how we extrapolate from our specific experience to build a general case especially when there is emotion involved. What Hat ~ I didn't take anything out of that person's quote and was not trying to distort anything. However, I agree that not all workers are bent on being dictators, although there has been more than a few in overseer positions over the years. From this person's posting, I felt he was referring more to overseers in positions of power than the workers under them. At least, that's how I interpreted it. Also, in his reference to the early workers, there was definitely a "power struggle" involved here and excommunications were often the result of not coming in line with their recommendations. I cannot make statements regarding the present day, but from what I have heard from others on TMB, the rules have really lightened up a lot in a number of areas and the friends are becoming more "worldly" themselves compared to outside their fold. Here are the two quotes I shared with Felicity on Page 8 of this thread as well. We were discussing different overseers at the time on this Facebook board and their style of leadership, by the way. However, workers in the past definitely "micro-managed" the friends and often dictated to them what was acceptable and what they could have in their home and still take part in meeting. The same goes with dress and hair styles for women, although men got off quite easily in that area. That's basically the 2x2's and workers involvement in the lives of friends that I remember from professing days between 1965 and 1995. However, it was 20 years ago when I left and things seem to have changed in some "cosmetic areas" since then. However, the "one and only way" seems to still in place and being taught as was incorporated back in 1904 under William Irvine in the form of the "Living Witness Doctrine." The HB reference is to an overseer in Northwestern USA. You are presenting these quotes without the surrounding context as if they are widely general conditions within the friends and workers in order to support your "friends are a cult" thesis. You haven't seen "authoritarian" until you see old line Brethren and Mennonite elders and preachers. Or Catholic priests. From my experience, the disciplinary action taken by workers, given the conservative nature of the church, is generally mild. Note I say "generally", and that is in comparison to other churches I know. That doesn't mean that some people haven't suffered under particularly authoritarian workers. From reports I have heard, the American MidWest seems to have been especially bad, given that their workers came out of old line Lutheran and other congregations that were big on discipline. The more general social issue is that if you have a conservative counter-culture and you and the majority of your members want to keep things a certain way ... then how do you do that?
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 12:02:32 GMT -5
Yes, Faune the quotes have a familiar ring to them. It would be interesting to get all the leaders in the room at the one time arguing about why their church is the most perfect... I guess as they say in business when you are #1 there is only place to go Ross ~ I'm sure that would be really interesting to have one representative from each "one true church" in one room expounding upon why their Way is #1 and all the others church groups are false teaching even among those who make the same claim? I remember a gal from another board who had a Dad who was a member of the 2x2's and a mother who was Jehovah Witness. She claimed it was a constant battle between them as to who possessed the "real Truth." LOL Unfortunately, these particular groups tend to lull people into a feeling of "specialness" because of belonging and making such claims, which might be a hard thing to give up when one leaves? After all, that would be a real ego boost for some, I reckon? I remember one lady from meeting days down South who often spoke in testimony about the specialness of being "set apart" and being among the "only ones with a revelation of truth." I guess "specialness" was a lot like being among the "survival of the fittest" in her estimation? A powerful euphemism , for sure! You have that happening within traditional Christianity too though. You know about the other dying rising godmen that Christianity is patterned after. Everyone believes their religion, their interpretation of that religion and their God are the only ones that are true. It is the nature of religions. So I can hardly criticize one religious group for believing they are the only true way when virtually all of them believe they are, right?
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Post by What Hat on May 22, 2015 12:08:04 GMT -5
Ross ~ I'm sure that would be really interesting to have one representative from each "one true church" in one room expounding upon why their Way is #1 and all the others church groups are false teaching even among those who make the same claim? I remember a gal from another board who had a Dad who was a member of the 2x2's and a mother who was Jehovah Witness. She claimed it was a constant battle between them as to who possessed the "real Truth." LOL Unfortunately, these particular groups tend to lull people into a feeling of "specialness" because of belonging and making such claims, which might be a hard thing to give up when one leaves? After all, that would be a real ego boost for some, I reckon? I remember one lady from meeting days down South who often spoke in testimony about the specialness of being "set apart" and being among the "only ones with a revelation of truth." I guess "specialness" was a lot like being among the "survival of the fittest" in her estimation? A powerful euphemism , for sure! You have that happening within traditional Christianity too though. You know about the other dying rising godmen that Christianity is patterned after. Everyone believes their religion, their interpretation of that religion and their God are the only ones that are true. It is the nature of religions. So I can hardly criticize one religious group for believing they are the only true way when virtually all of them believe they are, right? Yes, I wanted to ask faune how the underlined quote is different from the discussion on this very thread. It is quite a funny observation for her and Ross to make. All religious belief systems make absolute truth claims, not just so-called cults. And it also seems ironic that science never does. That is, scientific propositions are subject to constant examination and revision. Religious belief systems: not so much.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 12:21:04 GMT -5
Felicity ~ From what I have heard on TMB relating to the 2x2's, it seems that TV's, radios, computer laptops, and a number of other friendly electronic devices are now allowed in friends' homes in comparison to the old days when Rational and I were exposed to the 2x2's. It appears that the workers are lightening up on the reins in micromanaging the friends, as I brought out earlier? Perhaps this has a lot to do with their inability to control the flow of information these days due to Internet? In fact, I can remember when Internet came into play how the workers railed on it at convention as being like the worst evil known to man. For sure, times a changing in the 2x2's and perhaps before long the "walls of Jericho" will come tumbling down from these worldly influences? I would not say that TV's and radios are "allowed in friends homes" in my part of the world ... which isn't Colorado There are lots of other electronic gadgets which appear to be left to the individual's discretion. Like I said in another post, the expectation would be that these things are not used for anything inappropriate. I'm sure you weren't really surprised that the internet was "railed on". There is a lot of harmful stuff that can be accessed through the internet, and people need to be aware of the dangers. Internet safety is a big issue in schools too. There is to be a falling away, I'm not sure what will cause it, probably many influences.
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Post by snow on May 22, 2015 13:17:18 GMT -5
You have that happening within traditional Christianity too though. You know about the other dying rising godmen that Christianity is patterned after. Everyone believes their religion, their interpretation of that religion and their God are the only ones that are true. It is the nature of religions. So I can hardly criticize one religious group for believing they are the only true way when virtually all of them believe they are, right? Yes, I wanted to ask faune how the underlined quote is different from the discussion on this very thread. It is quite a funny observation for her and Ross to make. All religious belief systems make absolute truth claims, not just so-called cults. And it also seems ironic that science never does. That is, scientific propositions are subject to constant examination and revision. Religious belief systems: not so much. I like science and trust science because of the ability to change ideas and thoughts about things when old ideas and thoughts are proved to be in error. Religions are supposedly written in stone and cannot change, though of course they do, they just try to justify the changes as it's not really seen as a good thing since God doesn't change supposedly. However, that is the biggest criticism that people have against science is that it's continually changing what it believes. For me it's the biggest reason why I trust it.
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Post by rational on May 22, 2015 13:21:37 GMT -5
I like science and trust science because of the ability to change ideas and thoughts about things when old ideas and thoughts are proved to be in error. Religions are supposedly written in stone and cannot change, though of course they do, they just try to justify the changes as it's not really seen as a good thing since God doesn't change supposedly. However, that is the biggest criticism that people have against science is that it's continually changing what it believes. For me it's the biggest reason why I trust it. There is also the fact that the corrent difertion of a theory and any changes are usually supported, at least in part, by reproducible and verifiable data.
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 13:50:39 GMT -5
What Hat ~ I see your point. However, I was just pointing out the "authoritarian" style of senior workers for most of the 2x2 existence, which was being discussed on the Facebook private board, The Secret World of Truth. At that time we were discussing the Northwestern Region of the States, but I feel this micro-managing of friends is pretty much all over to some degree. If things have changed in the last decade, kudos to those who are bringing these changes about ~ most likely the young friends? I honestly don't see the older friends getting on the bandwagon of change myself. I also wish to state that most outside churches I have attended since the 2x2's don't have all these restrictions placed upon them as requirements for membership or feel they have to conform to a bunch of "unwritten rules" to be accepted by the members. They are more taken up with worship of Jesus and hands-on community efforts to better other folks lives than comparison among friends within the 2x2's to see who is more spiritual by being "up to snuff" with the workers' directives. Please tell me how any of these cosmetic requirements of membership add to a person's spiritual wellbeing or benefit? I see no difference here than what Jesus referenced in Matthew 23. Also, I do realize that legalistic churches ALL have their "unwritten rules" that are part of their tradition as much as what they take as proof-text from the Bible to justify their claims. However, I really don't think Jesus would support such legalistic behaviors or commend them for their outward sacrifices. This was something he took up with the Pharisees in Matthew 23, if I remember right? Jesus was a teacher who lifted people's burden and did not add to them as strict religions have a way of doing. www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 14:10:53 GMT -5
I would not say that TV's and radios are "allowed in friends homes" in my part of the world ... which isn't Colorado There are lots of other electronic gadgets which appear to be left to the individual's discretion. Like I said in another post, the expectation would be that these things are not used for anything inappropriate. I'm sure you weren't really surprised that the internet was "railed on". There is a lot of harmful stuff that can be accessed through the internet, and people need to be aware of the dangers. Internet safety is a big issue in schools too. There is to be a falling away, I'm not sure what will cause it, probably many influences. The computers, lap tops was railed on by senior works, when it first came out 1990s but now MANY of the workers in USA have lap tops, and use computers these days to communicate with the friends, and workers around the world. Like you wrote a lot of harmful stuff on the Internet so the workers and friends need to be caution where theirs fingers go. The Internet can be a great tool for learning, finding out information which we couldn't do it before. Nathan ~ I agree. Also, anything can be abused if not used properly ~ it's all a matter of moderation in individual choices. By forbidding something, workers are suggesting that friends lack in ability to think for themselves and respond in Christian fashion. If a person is controlled by the Holy Spirit, I don't feel all these negative aspects would have that much appeal to most Christian folks, although they could be tempted by the same, I reckon? But, it's still possible to overcome such temptation by avoiding the influence of such unseemly sites, IMHO?
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 15:56:14 GMT -5
Felicity wrote:
I missed the above paragraph until Nathan quoted it, but I heartily agree Felicity.
More than the Bible is needed though - we need the leading of God's spirit (but you acknowledge that I'm sure).
Thank you for engaging so graciously here on TMB. I respect you and your beliefs - even if I see some things differently.
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Post by bubbles on May 22, 2015 17:27:50 GMT -5
Music is such a soothing inspiring delightful encounter that stirs the soul. It is a part of our heritage our being to sore and be lifted up. The bible talks about music in heaven. For any human being to be denied the joy of music is incredibly sad. My parents had lovely singing voices. Dad played the guitar and mouth organ. Even without radio and TV we had some music in our lives. For me it wasnt enough. Worship is about making music to the lord. Some of the old hymns music originated in Pubs. I just see this kind of denial odd. Another form of control. I also enjoy the kind of music that stirs the soul, and that is in harmony with heaven. That's why we sing and play hymns. I don't believe that the music popular today is the type of stuff that stirs the soul, particularly the lyrics, although I can only base that judgement on what I've heard in shops and restaurants. Felicity After I left meetings. 3yr later I attended a church that sang praise songs. It was beautiful I filled my house with. A few yrs after that I was lead to another church that worshiped. Praise and worship is quite different to anything I had in meeting. The music was nothing short of incredible. You should go to a christian book shop. Here you can listen to cds there before you buy. I think you might be surprised. When the lord is praised he inhabits his people.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 22, 2015 23:17:15 GMT -5
Post by review005 on 41 minutes ago They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church. They have found Christ and salvation, they also are settled and love their place in our church and desire nothing else. They wisely discern and judge between right and wrong practice, doctrine etc for their own lives. They also wisely leave judgement about others where it should be....with God. Felicity do you agree with this that Review has posted ? Do you to believe heaven is not limited to member's of your church ? I agree with what review said "they wisely leave judgement about others where it should be ... with God" Why don't you ask review if he agrees with what he posted himself? Felicity do you agree with Reviews first sentence "They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church."
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Post by Roselyn T on May 22, 2015 23:32:10 GMT -5
Presume your kids have computers and access to the internet Far worse than TVs, radios, DVDs etc They share the family computer, but they mostly don't have unsupervised access to the internet yet. So far they've only used the internet to research school projects. Like every other child, they have to learn to stay safe on the internet, and not to use it for anything inappropriate. Felicity do they have laptops at school ? Most schools here in Australia have laptops for kids in senior levels.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 12:20:27 GMT -5
They share the family computer, but they mostly don't have unsupervised access to the internet yet. So far they've only used the internet to research school projects. Like every other child, they have to learn to stay safe on the internet, and not to use it for anything inappropriate. Felicity do they have laptops at school ? Most schools here in Australia have laptops for kids in senior levels. No, they don't have laptops for school. They're still using text books, although some schools here are using electronic 'books'.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 13:22:25 GMT -5
I also enjoy the kind of music that stirs the soul, and that is in harmony with heaven. That's why we sing and play hymns. I don't believe that the music popular today is the type of stuff that stirs the soul, particularly the lyrics, although I can only base that judgement on what I've heard in shops and restaurants. Felicity After I left meetings. 3yr later I attended a church that sang praise songs. It was beautiful I filled my house with. A few yrs after that I was lead to another church that worshiped. Praise and worship is quite different to anything I had in meeting. The music was nothing short of incredible. You should go to a christian book shop. Here you can listen to cds there before you buy. I think you might be surprised. When the lord is praised he inhabits his people. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm happy with what I've got
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 13:38:58 GMT -5
I agree with what review said "they wisely leave judgement about others where it should be ... with God" Felicity do you agree with Reviews first sentence "They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church." I believe that Jesus is truth. The second sentence is somewhat ambiguous, in that there are many in the old testament, who were obviously not members of the new testament church and yet were still assured of a place in heaven. If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. I would not be living the way I do if I did not feel that it is my only hope for salvation, and the only way I can experience joy and peace on earth. I realise that this is not the prevailing view on TMB, and I am not saying this to offend anyone, but as you repeatedly asked for my opinion ... you got it
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Post by faune on May 23, 2015 15:22:41 GMT -5
Felicity ~ I wonder if you are familiar with the Birth of Exclusivity within the 2x2's and when this teaching was incorporated into the fellowship? Here's a link to a thread I did on this subject back in November 2014 to give you some idea of how this all came about and the Living Witness Doctrine became the cornerstone of the gospel message of the workers, beginning in 1904 and what it represented. professing.proboards.com/thread/22516/birth-exclusivity-2x2s
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 15:40:11 GMT -5
Felicity ~ I wonder if you are familiar with the Birth of Exclusivity within the 2x2's and when this teaching was incorporated into the fellowship? Here's a link to a thread I did on this subject back in November 2014 to give you some idea of how this all came about and the Living Witness Doctrine became the cornerstone of the gospel message of the workers, beginning in 1904 and what it represented. professing.proboards.com/thread/22516/birth-exclusivity-2x2s Thanks faune, but I'm not particularly interested in digging up past history. I like the words of Jesus - "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father but by me". Also, I believe from what Jesus said in Matthew 7 about the broad way and the narrow way that there is only one way that leads to life - "Because strait (strict) is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
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Post by fixit on May 23, 2015 15:47:28 GMT -5
Faune, I don't see that Felicity is condemning anyone to hell for not being in the 2x2 fellowship: If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. Is she not saying that it's the only way for her? Regardless, I think we should appreciate Felicity for what she is and for her participation here without feeling compelled to drag her out of the 2x2s. Into what???
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Post by faune on May 23, 2015 16:59:39 GMT -5
Faune, I don't see that Felicity is condemning anyone to hell for not being in the 2x2 fellowship: If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. Is she not saying that it's the only way for her? Regardless, I think we should appreciate Felicity for what she is and for her participation here without feeling compelled to drag her out of the 2x2s. Into what??? Fixit ~ I just wondered if she was familiar with where all the exclusivity associated with the 2x2's came into play in the first place, because of her response highlighted above? If she's happy with the 2x2's, I have no problem with that. We all have some church we feel more comfortable with than others, but NOT all of the other churches make claims of being the only right way to believe, like the 2x2's along with some other "one and only true churches." From my own observation, she appears to believe that the 2x2's are the only way to be saved by Jesus ~ namely joining their group and remaining a member for life. I say this because she could really leave the 2x2 fellowship and attend another Christian Bible-based church and that would not affect her salvation in the least. As far as condemning those outside the fellowship to Hell for not being members; well, we all know this has been a teaching of the workers for an awfully long time. I would be surprised if the workers have changed their message much in this area either, due to still teaching the basic tenets of the Living Witness Doctrine instituted under William Irvine in 1904.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 23, 2015 22:35:32 GMT -5
Felicity do you agree with Reviews first sentence "They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church." I believe that Jesus is truth. The second sentence is somewhat ambiguous, in that there are many in the old testament, who were obviously not members of the new testament church and yet were still assured of a place in heaven. If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. I would not be living the way I do if I did not feel that it is my only hope for salvation, and the only way I can experience joy and peace on earth. I realise that this is not the prevailing view on TMB, and I am not saying this to offend anyone, but as you repeatedly asked for my opinion ... you got it Thank you for your reply Felicity, and your opinion yes I did ask you & thank you for your honesty. What makes you believe that the fellowship is the only right way ? There are a lot of people who think their church is the only way that is right too, so what makes the fellowship different?
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