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Post by faune on May 21, 2015 19:05:11 GMT -5
Ross ~ Words fitly spoken! Perhaps that's one of the reasons that the "one true church" claim gets "labeled" a cult about every where it springs up, as can be seen in this listing? All these groups surely have a lot in common!  www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm Comparison of One True Churches
Yes, Faune the quotes have a familiar ring to them. It would be interesting to get all the leaders in the room at the one time arguing about why their church is the most perfect... I guess as they say in business when you are #1 there is only place to go  ~ I'm sure that would be really interesting to have one representative from each "one true church" in one room expounding upon why their Way is #1 and all the others church groups are false teaching even among those who make the same claim?  I remember a gal from another board who had a Dad who was a member of the 2x2's and a mother who was a Jehovah Witness. She claimed it was a constant battle between the two as to who possessed the "real Truth." LOL Unfortunately, these "one and only" groups tend to lull people into a feeling of "specialness" because of belonging and making such claims by the leadership. This might be a hard thing to give up when one leaves? After all, that would be a real ego boost for some, I reckon? I remember one lady from meeting days down South who often spoke in her testimony about the specialness of being "set apart" and being among the "only ones with a revelation of truth." I guess "specialness" was a lot like being equated with the "survival of the fittest" in her estimation? A powerful allusion, for sure! |
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Post by faune on May 21, 2015 19:34:20 GMT -5
Faune, I have no confidence in the CARM website. It's simply one belief system condemning other belief systems. I feel sure that the owner of that site would be quick to condemn anyone who doesn't accept his belief system. The following statement is a bad idea: We must of necessity include bible-based or doctrinal discussions when dealing with the bible-based cults because their interpretation of the bible is part of the controlling factor.
I've recently used the word "cult" in relation to belief systems in an attempt to make a point but it's a bad idea. Doctrine and belief systems should be a separate discussion. ~ Sorry to disappoint you, but that statement above did not come from the CARM site, but from the Cult Awareness & Info. Site (CAIC) in my opening paragraph. However, I personally find the CARM site a good source of information on theology along with a few others. After all, sound doctrine is something we are supposed to be teaching in the presentation of the gospel message. That was something that Paul stressed as very important in his epistles, too. www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=3&Itemid=8 (CAIC) Bible Cults & Isms
www.gotquestions.org/sound-doctrine.html Sound Doctrine
www.openbible.info/topics/sound_doctrine What the Bible Says About Sound Doctrine |
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Post by faune on May 21, 2015 19:55:48 GMT -5
Felicity ~ Honestly, I don't feel many churches, my Baptist Church included, speak much about the Trinity doctrine. However, it's part of the Apostles Creed or Statement of Beliefs, which was later expounded upon within the Nicene Creed, which was assembled back in 325 A.D. under the Early Church Fathers to refute the Arian heresy. It's a foundational belief among most Christian churches today. However, when I was first attending meetings and at conventions I have heard senior workers speak against the Trinity and call it a false doctrine. Perhaps they are not doing it that much anymore, but it was pretty common back in the 1960's and 1970's during my younger days within the 2x2's. By the way, I was an outsider who professed as a teenager and not B&R within the group, so I missed out on that phase of it. By the way, I can remember George Walker when I was young referring to the Godhead as being like the shamrock. Perhaps he learned that over in Ireland? From your reference to the Anglican Church in your area, I would guess you are from the British Isles or perhaps Australia or New Zealand, where this church is more prominent? However, I do know you are not from Colorado from you last post. carm.org/nicene-creed
Thanks, Faune I came to the same conclusion as you, I wish many Christians would know and understand the history of when and where these Trinity, Triune God terminologies came from, so people wouldn't say negative things about it. ~ I feel most people are not aware that the Trinity concept was a Statement of Faith to counteract heretical teachings like Arianism, which is supported and taught by most aberrational groups even today, such as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, for examples. www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/34124/Arianism Arianism
www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html Arianism |
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 20:11:32 GMT -5
Doctrine and belief systems should be a separate discussion. What is an example of doctrine, preferably a published one, that would not be part of a belief system? |
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Post by fixit on May 21, 2015 20:16:18 GMT -5
Doctrine and belief systems should be a separate discussion. What is an example of doctrine, preferably a published one, that would not be part of a belief system? I don't know of any. |
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Post by fixit on May 21, 2015 20:32:10 GMT -5
Nathan ~ I feel most people are not aware that the Trinity concept was a Statement of Faith to counteract heretical teachings like Arianism, which is supported and taught by most aberrational groups even today, such as the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses, for examples. www.gotquestions.org/arianism.html Arianism
Many of the workers and the friends today! fall into that same trap they're NOT aware the history of Arian heretical teachings in the 4tn century opposing the Triune God Statement of Faith of the 2nd and 3rd century apostles. For many years, the friends just believe many of the workers words without questions, "Trinity is the doctrine of the devil, and it's heresy!"It's not a trap Nathan. F&W are trying to avoid man-made religious theory and stick with the Bible. |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 21, 2015 20:36:42 GMT -5
Felicity ~ Well your response took me by surprise, I must admit.  I figured you were a newbie to the "fold" to be so filled with praise for the workers and oblivious to what has transpired over decades within the 2x2's. I also professed for 30 years (from 1965 to 1995) and saw enough of negative behavior over those years to do me for a lifetime. I left out of total burn-out before I even heard about the covered-up of their founder (William Irvine) or the CSA scandals and abuses. During my professing days there was a lot of things swept under the rug and kept secret from the rest to protect the image of the Perfect Way. However, what I saw among the leadership was a dictatorial style with micro-managing of the lives of the friends. This was something you accepted as part of conforming to the workers' lordship over your lives. However, Jesus never meant for his apostles to be exercise lordship, but rather to demonstrate a servant's heart among the people as He gave the example. To verify that I'm not the only one who noted this trend among the leadership and friends, here's a honest comment from a person who has been a member longer than both of us on another site on Facebook and still is professing. You will find my comment followed by the statement made by this friend. I guess my question to you is why you consider it "acceptable behavior" of leadership to exert such power over members private lives? I would like to point out that dictatorial leadership is also one of the telltale signs of a cult or aberrant group, whether you want to admit it to yourself or not. In fact, it's a MAJOR ONE along with the "one true church" designation and abuses that go along with such claims shared in my previous posting. See, life is full of surprises The workers don't have lordship over my life. I have a deep respect for their example, guidance and advice, but Jesus has the lordship over my life. The workers are responsible to warn us of things that could endanger our souls, it's up to us whether to heed them or not. We do not have a dictatorial leadership here. I think you find it hard to admit that there are workers who have a servant's heart, and there are people enjoying the fellowship and not at all burdened by leadership To answer your question, I find it perfectly acceptable, and desirable, that my Creator and my Redeemer have power over my life. I'm sure you're right in saying that dictatorial leadership is one of the tell-tale signs of a cult, but I'm not in a cult, and never have been. Felicity if the workers don't have lordship over your life, why don't you listen to music or let your children listen to music or have a radio ? Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot listen to music ? |
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 20:40:40 GMT -5
]Yes I do believe in the infallability of God's Word - so where God says that only He is to be worshipped I don't think that's open to interpretation. I'd say my core Christian beliefs line up with pretty much all Protestant churches. Including typical charasmatic churchs? |
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Post by fixit on May 21, 2015 20:47:31 GMT -5
Ross, you're adamant about what "God says in the Bible" and I get the impression you're pretty exclusive about how the words of the Bible are interpreted. How many religious groups have a belief system exactly the same as yours? Yes I do believe in the infallability of God's Word - so where God says that only He is to be worshipped I don't think that's open to interpretation. I'd say my core Christian beliefs line up with pretty much all Protestant churches. Here's the basics of Anglican belief. Do you agree with it all? |
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 21:00:15 GMT -5
Godhead is NOT man-made theory. The Bible is NOT a complete book of Christians teachings. The Bible.... the New Testament gospels, epistles, and the book of Revelation were selected which written by the end of the 1st century! Many of the Christians 2nd century apostles teachings were NOT included in the Bible. Are they on YouTube? |
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Post by rational on May 21, 2015 21:19:11 GMT -5
Why, do you ask? I thought you don't like to watch youTube. No, it's NOT on YouTube but from A dictionary of early Christians beliefs book. I don't NathanB, but that is the source of the vast majority of what you present as verification of your beliefs. |
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Post by faune on May 21, 2015 23:51:10 GMT -5
Doctrine and belief systems should be a separate discussion. What is an example of doctrine, preferably a published one, that would not be part of a belief system? ~ Perhaps these church creeds or statements of faith would qualify as a published doctrine as well as part of one's belief system? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_creeds |
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Post by faune on May 22, 2015 0:01:19 GMT -5
Many of the workers and the friends today! fall into that same trap they're NOT aware the history of Arian heretical teachings in the 3tn century opposing the Triune God Statement of Faith of the 2nd and 3rd century apostles. For many years, the friends just believe many of the workers words without questions, "Trinity is the doctrine of the devil, and it's heresy!"I think you are spot on. In this part of the world it tends to be referred to as "that Catholic doctrine". I think many workers have embraced Arianism unwittingly, simply because they are opposed in general to doctrines of other "false churches", not because of any study of the matter.Once workers have done that for a period, it's a long way back. It's impossible for one or two workers to change it. They'd need to have another worker's council like they did on divorce/remarriage to try and settle the issue but it would probably be difficult to do as there would be a fair amount of divided opinions I suspect. ~ I agree that the 2x2's also embrace Arianism with their views relating to Christology and their anti-Trinitarian stand. However, they are not alone. Most of the groups on the list of Christian Bible cults also embrace this Arian belief system as part of their teachings. In addition, most of the Restorative Movements (including the 2x2's) claim to go back to the New Testament Church and reject the Creeds of the Early Church Fathers, but fail to recognize that they are actually taken from scripture and was part of their early belief system. www.gotquestions.org/Restoration-movement.html |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 3:43:07 GMT -5
Those who leave the way and say this isn't the Only Way can't be renewed again.[Glen Valley BC Canada Conv 1988] REF #142 Here's the reference to the workers quotes from the site below: www.thelyingtruth.info/?f=quotes&id=display&topic=Only%20True/Right%20Way Workers Quotes about Only True/Right Way
"One True" Churches Claim Anyone Leaving Their Group is Lost (Item #7)
That link does not say who actually made the statement Roselyn quoted. I am not sure where anyone would stand if they deny the way, but it would appear from this verse that it's only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost that can't be forgiven: Jesus said "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." There are many people who have left and come back, so it is definitely not true to say that there is no hope for anyone who leaves, or that they cannot be renewed to repentance. |
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Post by Roselyn T on May 22, 2015 3:53:45 GMT -5
What do you mean by " I am not sure where anyone would stand if they deny the way,"? Do you mean if they deny Jesus ?
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Post by Roselyn T on May 22, 2015 3:58:36 GMT -5
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Post by review005 on 41 minutes ago
Mary Avatar
about an hour ago Mary said:
His name wouldn't be C. S. would it?
No it wasn't him I was thinking of.
I know many like the friend I described.
They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church.
They have found Christ and salvation, they also are settled and love their place in our church and desire nothing else.
They wisely discern and judge between right and wrong practice, doctrine etc for their own lives.
They also wisely leave judgement about others where it should be....with God.
Felicity do you agree with this that Review has posted ? Do you to believe heaven is not limited to member's of your church ?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 4:01:26 GMT -5
Felicity if the workers don't have lordship over your life, why don't you listen to music or let your children listen to music or have a radio ? Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot listen to music ? I choose not to. I'm sure if I wanted to I could listen to music and no one would ever know. There are many things I don't have, and don't do, because I feel the Holy Spirit is prompting me to make those choices. No one has ever told me not to listen to music or have a radio. My children have never asked for these things either. |
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Post by maryhig on May 22, 2015 4:21:24 GMT -5
Felicity if the workers don't have lordship over your life, why don't you listen to music or let your children listen to music or have a radio ? Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot listen to music ? I choose not to. I'm sure if I wanted to I could listen to music and no one would ever know. There are many things I don't have, and don't do, because I feel the Holy Spirit is prompting me to make those choices. No one has ever told me not to listen to music or have a radio. My children have never asked for these things either. I do have TV and cd/radio But I'm careful what I watch and listen to. I personally feel you can find more corrupted influences online. It's what heart you have. If your heart is right you will just watch and listen to anything that you feel is right in your heart to do so. If your heart is wrong you'll be drawn to wrong influences, whether it be on the tv. radio or online! But it is nice to turn everything off and just be at one with God in your heart! There is nothing more peaceful than this! |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 5:07:15 GMT -5
There are workers in USA believe and teach both "It's Romans Catholic doctrine" and "It's heresy and RCC doctrine." I know many of the friends read this message board and some workers also read it. Hopefully, between our Trinity exchanges, and discussion will help them to understand more about anti-trinity Arian's heresy doctrine belief and history in the 3rd century.
I have done a few polls on here about whether the friends believe in the Godhead, Trinity, Triune God and found out more and more friends are leaning this way now, once they understand the history of Arius belief, and his anti-trinity doctrine of the early church father teachings. Hardly, any worker has explained Arius anti-Trinity doctrine to the friends in the past.
I've never seen a trinity discussion on this forum that did anything other than convince me that we do not need the trinity terminology to follow Jesus. If Jesus did not feel it was necessary to explain the relationship between himself, his father and the Holy Spirit in greater detail, then I don't believe it's something we need to worry about in order to follow him. The Bible is a complete book and it tells us all we need to know in order to be saved. Don't you think it's more important to focus on becoming more Christ-like, than getting tied up in doctrinal arguments? With regard to the polls, I do not know how you can say that those polls are an indication of how the friends are leaning. At best, they are an indication of how the posters on the TMB are leaning. How do you know who actually voted? I didn't vote on your trinity poll. You claim that most friends and workers are in a trap. Are you sure it's not you that's in a trap - believing everything you find on youtube, and teaching for doctrine the interpretations of men? |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 5:11:56 GMT -5
What do you mean by " I am not sure where anyone would stand if they deny the way,"? Do you mean if they deny Jesus ? I was referring to what you quoted - "Those who leave the way and say this isn't the Only Way can't be renewed again." Like I said in the other half of that sentence "it would appear from this verse that it's only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost that can't be forgiven: Jesus said "All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men." |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 5:26:47 GMT -5
Post by review005 on 41 minutes ago They know Truth is Jesus Christ alone. They know that heaven is not limited to members of our church. They have found Christ and salvation, they also are settled and love their place in our church and desire nothing else. They wisely discern and judge between right and wrong practice, doctrine etc for their own lives. They also wisely leave judgement about others where it should be....with God. Felicity do you agree with this that Review has posted ? Do you to believe heaven is not limited to member's of your church ? I agree with what review said "they wisely leave judgement about others where it should be ... with God" Why don't you ask review if he agrees with what he posted himself? |
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 5:40:03 GMT -5
Godhead is NOT man-made theory. The Bible is NOT a complete book of Christians teachings. The Bible.... the New Testament gospels, epistles, and the book of Revelation were selected which written by the end of the 1st century! Many of the Christians 2nd century apostles teachings were NOT included in the Bible. Are they on YouTube? Rational, I think Nathan's talking about Arians. Not aliens this time. |
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 5:43:41 GMT -5
Ross ~ I agree that the 2x2's also embrace Arianism with their views relating to Christology and their anti-Trinitarian stand. However, they are not alone. Most of the groups on the list of Christian Bible cults also embrace this Arian belief system as part of their teachings. They probably qualify for the list because their detractors are obsessed with the Trinity. |
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Post by fixit on May 22, 2015 5:51:30 GMT -5
It's not a trap Nathan. F&W are trying to avoid man-made religious theory and stick with the Bible. Stick with all the Bible or just the bits that suit the workers' belief system? (as originally determined by Mr Irvine, Mr Cooney and co) Leaving God as Father, Son and Holy Spirit aside, 2x2's seem to oppose key Biblical or salvation concepts such as: Justification Predestination Salvation as a gift from God by grace through faith alone Original or Birth-Sin (William Irvine and others railed against this) Attaining salvation only by the name of Christ (as opposed to having also to being in fellowship with the only right ministry on earth) I could go on but will leave it at this. There are some pretty key concepts here. And then there are particular requirements which are not Biblical which appear to be required (eg ministers can't marry) - possibly not for salvation - but certainly as a core part of the system. Remember, that in return the workers often hold up the magnifying glass on the "false churches" in three key areas - all of which are not salvation issues: - paid ministry (not clear to me what the difference is to most churches...) - baptism -infant baptism and baptism by immersion (I've commented on these issues before) - buildings - (not sure what a convention set-up is?) Clearly Calvinist theory means a lot to you Ross, but most friends and workers are not interested. I prefer the simplicity that is in Christ. |
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Post by rational on May 22, 2015 6:44:50 GMT -5
Felicity if the workers don't have lordship over your life, why don't you listen to music or let your children listen to music or have a radio ? Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot listen to music ? I choose not to. I'm sure if I wanted to I could listen to music and no one would ever know. There are many things I don't have, and don't do, because I feel the Holy Spirit is prompting me to make those choices. No one has ever told me not to listen to music or have a radio. My children have never asked for these things either. This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 7:00:39 GMT -5
I choose not to. I'm sure if I wanted to I could listen to music and no one would ever know. There are many things I don't have, and don't do, because I feel the Holy Spirit is prompting me to make those choices. No one has ever told me not to listen to music or have a radio. My children have never asked for these things either. This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. My children aren't deprived of music. They play instruments, sing hymns etc. We just don't have radios, dvd's, ipods or whatever people use to listen to songs nowadays. I don't agree with your statement that children wouldn't ask for things that they were never given. I know some kids that are always begging for things that they don't get at home. |
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Post by rational on May 22, 2015 7:45:17 GMT -5
This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. Sorry, I didn't make that very clear. My children aren't deprived of music. They play instruments, sing hymns etc. We just don't have radios, dvd's, ipods or whatever people use to listen to songs nowadays. Playing instruments, even the pots and pans, is a good thing. Another question - what do you have, for example, against something like a MP3 or DVD player where you control the content? There are many sources for counting silly songs that children like. How would a child who has never had meat know to ask for it? It sounds like your children have not had a music player to use so what would they ask for? Or have they seen such devices at their friends? No radio/player in the car? Sounds like me growing up with no TV/radio/record player (Yes, I am that old!). |
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Post by bubbles on May 22, 2015 7:49:22 GMT -5
I choose not to. I'm sure if I wanted to I could listen to music and no one would ever know. There are many things I don't have, and don't do, because I feel the Holy Spirit is prompting me to make those choices. No one has ever told me not to listen to music or have a radio. My children have never asked for these things either. This does not seem to be a good way to evaluate what children need. Have never been given meat children would not ask for it either. Music is a key factor in child development. Depriving children of music seems, to me at least, bordering on willful neglect. As an adult you certainly should monitor the selection they hear but to eliminate it seems a step too far in isolating them from... well, I don't know what your fear really is. Music is such a soothing inspiring delightful encounter that stirs the soul. It is a part of our heritage our being to sore and be lifted up. The bible talks about music in heaven. For any human being to be denied the joy of music is incredibly sad. My parents had lovely singing voices. Dad played the guitar and mouth organ. Even without radio and TV we had some music in our lives. For me it wasnt enough. Worship is about making music to the lord. Some of the old hymns music originated in Pubs. I just see this kind of denial odd. Another form of control. |
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I remember a gal from another board who had a Dad who was a member of the 2x2's and a mother who was a Jehovah Witness. She claimed it was a constant battle between the two as to who possessed the "real Truth." LOL 
I figured you were a newbie to the "fold" to be so filled with praise for the workers and oblivious to what has transpired over decades within the 2x2's. I also professed for 30 years (from 1965 to 1995) and saw enough of negative behavior over those years to do me for a lifetime. I left out of total burn-out before I even heard about the covered-up of their founder (William Irvine) or the CSA scandals and abuses. During my professing days there was a lot of things swept under the rug and kept secret from the rest to protect the image of the Perfect Way. However, what I saw among the leadership was a dictatorial style with micro-managing of the lives of the friends. This was something you accepted as part of conforming to the workers' lordship over your lives. However, Jesus never meant for his apostles to be exercise lordship, but rather to demonstrate a servant's heart among the people as He gave the example. To verify that I'm not the only one who noted this trend among the leadership and friends, here's a honest comment from a person who has been a member longer than both of us on another site on Facebook and still is professing. You will find my comment followed by the statement made by this friend. I guess my question to you is why you consider it "acceptable behavior" of leadership to exert such power over members private lives? I would like to point out that dictatorial leadership is also one of the telltale signs of a cult or aberrant group, whether you want to admit it to yourself or not. In fact, it's a MAJOR ONE along with the "one true church" designation and abuses that go along with such claims shared in my previous posting. 
