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Post by faune on May 24, 2015 7:07:48 GMT -5
Felicity ~ I wonder if you are familiar with the Birth of Exclusivity within the 2x2's and when this teaching was incorporated into the fellowship? Here's a link to a thread I did on this subject back in November 2014 to give you some idea of how this all came about and the Living Witness Doctrine became the cornerstone of the gospel message of the workers, beginning in 1904 and what it represented. professing.proboards.com/thread/22516/birth-exclusivity-2x2s Thanks faune, but I'm not particularly interested in digging up past history. I like the words of Jesus - "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father but by me". Also, I believe from what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14 about the broad way and the narrow way that there is only one way that leads to life - "Because strait (strict) is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Felicity ~ Thank for your honest answer about what you believe about the 2x2's. I appreciated you being up-front about it, since some professing folks often side-step a response by changing the subject. However, have you ever wondered over that verse in Matthew 7 that workers often use in their gospel meetings to present their own beliefs? For instance, here's an apologist's views on that particular verse in the Bible from Matthew 7, as shown below. www.gotquestions.org/narrow-gate.html
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Post by faune on May 24, 2015 7:33:18 GMT -5
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Post by faune on May 24, 2015 8:16:43 GMT -5
As we discussed earlier in relation to the Arian heresy that arose around the 3rd century and was refuted by the Early Church Fathers (ECF's) in the different Creeds or Statements of Faith, understanding the Christology of Jesus Christ is essential to a sound belief system, as demonstrated in this excerpt from the previous article. Also, John 3:16 clearly described the audience that Jesus brought hope of redemption to through belief in his Person. I might add that it had nothing to do with creating some form of homeless 2x2 ministry as the only way of salvation for all mankind. That was a man-made tradition and pattern of ministry to follow established by William Irvine as an experiment in religion along with his Living Witness gospel message. biblehub.com/john/3-16.htm John 3:16
christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/36423/what-does-it-mean-that-god-is-the-saviour-of-all-people-especially-those-who-be?rq=1 What does it mean that God is the saviour of all people, especially those who believe? (I Timothy 4:10)
bible.org/seriespage/3-christology-jesus-christ Christology: Jesus Christ
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Post by faune on May 24, 2015 9:28:48 GMT -5
Although belief in Jesus Christ and his person is essential to our hope of salvation, some groups still like to put God into a box of exclusivity. The 2x2's are just one of these "one true church" groups that feel this is necessary to create an aura of specialness around their belief system. Cherie covers this change to the exclusive mindset within the 2x2's in Chapter 7 of her book on her TTT information site shown below. www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm Comparing One True Churches
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/07wmibook.php Chapter 7 (Book on William Irvine)
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Post by snow on May 24, 2015 17:31:37 GMT -5
Faune, I don't see that Felicity is condemning anyone to hell for not being in the 2x2 fellowship: If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. Is she not saying that it's the only way for her? Regardless, I think we should appreciate Felicity for what she is and for her participation here without feeling compelled to drag her out of the 2x2s. Into what??? That's the thing isn't it. Into what? The reason why there are so many different ways to express life is because everyone has different needs I think. The 2x2's filled a very real need for my parents but not for me. Does that make me right and them wrong? No. We both found what was right for us. How much more can anyone expect in life really. To live in freedom, peace, joy and love and be able to define what that means to us as individuals works for me. It's obvious to me that felicity is happy and living how she wants to. What more can we ask for. I express what that means for me on here, but fully allow that my way of defining life doesn't work for everyone, just me.
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 17:41:18 GMT -5
Although belief in Jesus Christ and his person is essential to our hope of salvation, some groups still like to put God into a box of exclusivity. The 2x2's are just one of these "one true church" groups that feel this is necessary to create an aura of specialness around their belief system. Cherie covers this change to the exclusive mindset within the 2x2's in Chapter 7 of her book on her TTT information site shown below. www.theholdemans.com/Compare.htm Comparing One True Churches
www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/07wmibook.php Chapter 7 (Book on William Irvine) Faune, are you sure you don't belong to an exclusive group yourself?
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 18:34:35 GMT -5
Every fellowship group has boundaries.
If I was in a group of Calvinists and taught about the Athanasian heresy I suspect I would eventually be excluded.
Wouldn't most churches eventually exclude someone who taught Atheism?
(Fixed typo)
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Post by Greg on May 24, 2015 20:00:47 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 20:03:59 GMT -5
Every fellowship group has boundaries. If I was in a group of Calvinists and taught about the Athanasian heresy I suspect I would eventually be excluded. Wouldn't most churches eventually exclude someone who taught Atheim? What's "Atheim"? Not sure what you mean by Athanasian heresy? If you were in any Christian church (don't just worry about Calvinists) throughout the world and started teaching that deity and humanity of Jesus Christ was heresy I imagine someone would have a chat with you. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) If you taught this openly in the 2x2's you'd probably come against a few issues as well although they seem to be increasing embracing this heresy. You'd probably have to join the JW's or the Mormons where you could teach it freely ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Sounds pretty exclusive to me.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2015 20:44:00 GMT -5
What's "Atheim"? Not sure what you mean by Athanasian heresy? If you were in any Christian church (don't just worry about Calvinists) throughout the world and started teaching that deity and humanity of Jesus Christ was heresy I imagine someone would have a chat with you. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) If you taught this openly in the 2x2's you'd probably come against a few issues as well although they seem to be increasing embracing this heresy. You'd probably have to join the JW's or the Mormons where you could teach it freely ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Sounds pretty exclusive to me. What religion isn't exclusive? Maybe philosophies like the Tao. Hinduism allows you to be a Hindu and be another religion, but for sure any of the 'one God' religions are all exclusive. How can they not be when they teach you have to be a Christian or a Muslim etc to go to heaven?
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Post by fixit on May 24, 2015 20:53:40 GMT -5
Sounds pretty exclusive to me. What religion isn't exclusive? Maybe philosophies like the Tao. Hinduism allows you to be a Hindu and be another religion, but for sure any of the 'one God' religions are all exclusive. How can they not be when they teach you have to be a Christian or a Muslim etc to go to heaven? Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure!
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Post by snow on May 24, 2015 21:52:19 GMT -5
What religion isn't exclusive? Maybe philosophies like the Tao. Hinduism allows you to be a Hindu and be another religion, but for sure any of the 'one God' religions are all exclusive. How can they not be when they teach you have to be a Christian or a Muslim etc to go to heaven? Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure! It makes no sense to me at all which is why I am a non believer. I believe religion does more harm than good because it causes division and there are already enough reasons why we divide against each other.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 25, 2015 2:52:35 GMT -5
<abbr data-timestamp="1432485323000" title="May 24, 2015 11:35:23 GMT -5" class="time">May 24, 2015 11:35:23 GMT -5</abbr> NathanB said: It wasn't William Irvine's experiment, he followed the 2x2 apostolic/workers homeless ministry pattern from John Govan, Faith Mission founder in 1886. AND John Govan copied/followed from those who had done it before him. AND those who had gone before them got it from the apostles and Jesus Himself. If you don't believe me, just think of the 2x2 terminologies and the Faith Mission words... Workers, the friends, conventions, professing, and workers pictures standing together like they do in the Faith Mission workers picture group in the 1900s.
William Irvine and the early workers felt John Govan didn't have a complete picture of the New Testament Church so they parted way with John Govan, doing what they believe is following Jesus Christ New Testament Church and 2x2 apostolic ministry.
Isn't that how every new Christian denomination starts ?
"William Irvine and the early workers felt John Govan didn't have a complete picture of the New Testament Church "
Those other guys just don't have it quite right, so we are going to do it right! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 4:22:45 GMT -5
Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure! I've tried to figure it out but not easy.... ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I know a lot of exes who are Christians - I've never talked to anyone or heard anyone talk about the Athanasian Creed???!!! It wouldn't even register in the mind of exes. I've never heard the Creed quoted in a church and I had to look it up to see what it said. Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on: - exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book) I've never heard of anyone primarily leaving the 2x2's because of the Trinity - 2x2 teaching on the nature and character of God is all over the place so it would be hard to ping the 2x2's on that one alone! man you write some rubbish sometimes
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 5:53:49 GMT -5
There is also the fact that the corrent difertion of a theory and any changes are usually supported, at least in part, by reproducible and verifiable data. What is a "corrent difertion" ? This is the second time today that I wondered if you were getting a kick out of making something up to see if anyone noticed ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2015 6:01:34 GMT -5
Faune, I don't see that Felicity is condemning anyone to hell for not being in the 2x2 fellowship: If you are asking me if I believe I could leave the fellowship I'm in today, join another church, and still be confident that I'd be saved, then no, I don't believe that. I believe that there is only one way. Is she not saying that it's the only way for her? Regardless, I think we should appreciate Felicity for what she is and for her participation here without feeling compelled to drag her out of the 2x2s. Into what??? Thanks Fixit ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) "Into what?" indeed! "Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life"
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Post by rational on May 25, 2015 6:19:30 GMT -5
Every fellowship group has boundaries. If I was in a group of Calvinists and taught about the Athanasian heresy I suspect I would eventually be excluded. Wouldn't most churches eventually exclude someone who taught Atheism? (Fixed typo)How would one go about teaching atheism to a group of believers?
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Post by fixit on May 25, 2015 6:25:48 GMT -5
Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure! I've tried to figure it out but not easy.... ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I know a lot of exes who are Christians - I've never talked to anyone or heard anyone talk about the Athanasian Creed???!!! It wouldn't even register in the mind of exes. I've never heard the Creed quoted in a church and I had to look it up to see what it said. Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on: - exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book) I've never heard of anyone primarily leaving the 2x2's because of the Trinity - 2x2 teaching on the nature and character of God is all over the place so it would be hard to ping the 2x2's on that one alone! Ross, when you get together with your Calvinist buddies do you pray for a "little child" spirit? I appreciated the "little child" spirit of my brethren in our meeting yesterday, and several expressed a desire for a "little child" spirit, a dependence on our Father in Heaven and a desire to be led and guided by his spirit. I think if you put them through a Calvinist/BSF inquisition you could "ping" every one of them. You would consider them lacking in knowledge of the intricacies of the man-made creeds that are so important to you. Are they suffering from cult oppression? I doubt it. Would they be better off in another church? I doubt it. I'm inclined to agree with Review - you should put your effort into converting your wayward Anglican brethren and righting the many problems your church is plagued with.
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Post by fixit on May 25, 2015 6:28:45 GMT -5
Every fellowship group has boundaries. If I was in a group of Calvinists and taught about the Athanasian heresy I suspect I would eventually be excluded. Wouldn't most churches eventually exclude someone who taught Atheism? (Fixed typo)How would one go about teaching atheism to a group of believers? With your experience of 22,580 posts I think you would do OK at it.
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Post by rational on May 25, 2015 7:31:44 GMT -5
How would one go about teaching atheism to a group of believers? With your experience of 22,580 posts I think you would do OK at it. And out of those 22,580+ posts can you point to one where I ever suggested that any abandon their belief of the paranormal being they believe in? Perhaps the difference is that I don't care if you believe in a paranormal being as long as you do not impose your beliefs on me or on others without their consent. If you have, for example, peritonitis and want to ask the paranormal being you believe in to cure it instead of a course of antibiotics that is fine. If you subject your child to the same rules it is not ok. You cannot teach someone not to believe. You can ask questions about the beliefs but generally the answers satisfy the believer but only exhibit their faith to the questioner.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2015 11:22:52 GMT -5
Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure! I've tried to figure it out but not easy.... ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I know a lot of exes who are Christians - I've never talked to anyone or heard anyone talk about the Athanasian Creed???!!! It wouldn't even register in the mind of exes. I've never heard the Creed quoted in a church and I had to look it up to see what it said. Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on: - exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book) I've never heard of anyone primarily leaving the 2x2's because of the Trinity - 2x2 teaching on the nature and character of God is all over the place so it would be hard to ping the 2x2's on that one alone! Probably the reason why most Christians don't know about the Athanasian creed is because most Christians don't really know the history of their own religion. Do some reading and you would know about the birth of a Triune God, the major players in the whole thing etc.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2015 11:24:56 GMT -5
Isn't that how every new Christian denomination starts ?
"William Irvine and the early workers felt John Govan didn't have a complete picture of the New Testament Church "
Those other guys just don't have it quite right, so we are going to do it right! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
Yep! That how the it went the last 2000 years, about the Remnant of believers have been chosen by God to preserve Jesus Truth and Way on the earth.
Romans 11:1-5 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY church! and the gates of HELL will not overcome it."
For that matter isn't that exactly what Jesus did too. He didn't like the direction of where his fellow Jews were going so he tried to change that and started his own denomination? He wasn't a Christian after all, he was a Jew advocating that the Jews had it wrong and he alone was right.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2015 11:27:46 GMT -5
There is also the fact that the corrent difertion of a theory and any changes are usually supported, at least in part, by reproducible and verifiable data. What is a "corrent difertion" ? This is the second time today that I wondered if you were getting a kick out of making something up to see if anyone noticed ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I think he meant 'current definition' of a theory. Typo. Rational correct me if I'm wrong please.
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Post by hberry on May 25, 2015 11:59:23 GMT -5
What is a "corrent difertion" ? This is the second time today that I wondered if you were getting a kick out of making something up to see if anyone noticed ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I think he meant 'current definition' of a theory. Typo. Rational correct me if I'm wrong please. That was my assumption also when I read it.
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Post by faune on May 25, 2015 16:43:07 GMT -5
Also, John 3:16 clearly described the audience that Jesus brought hope of redemption to through belief in his Person. I might add that it had nothing to do with creating some form of homeless 2x2 ministry as the only way of salvation for all mankind. That was a man-made tradition and pattern of ministry to follow established by William Irvine as an experiment in religion along with his Living Witness gospel message. It wasn't William Irvine's experiment, he followed the 2x2 apostolic/workers homeless ministry pattern from John Govan, Faith Mission founder in 1886. AND John Govan copied/followed from those who had done it before him. AND those who had gone before them got it from the apostles and Jesus Himself. If you don't believe me, just think of the 2x2 terminologies and the Faith Mission words... Workers, the friends, conventions, professing, and workers pictures standing together like they do in the Faith Mission workers picture group in the 1900s.
William Irvine and the early workers felt John Govan didn't have a complete picture of the New Testament Church so they parted way with John Govan, doing what they believe is following Jesus Christ New Testament Church and 2x2 apostolic ministry.
May 1903, p. 102 Bright Words For PILGRIMS Heavenward A Faith Mission Publication
We regret that it seems needful, owing to confusing statements that have been made to state plainly that we have no responsibility for the work carried on in Ireland and elsewhere by Mr. Irvine and his fellow-workers. Having little organization or arrangement whereby to distinguish them, the agents of this anonymous work have in some places been mistaken for our Faith Mission pilgrims, and misleading references have in consequence appeared in the public press. While we honor the zeal and devotion of these workers, and believe them to be sincere and single in purpose, their lines of work differ essentially from those of the Faith Mission, as an non-sectarian agency, and are such as we could not endorse or approve.
John Govan, the Faith Mission founder in 1886 teachings: Inter-denomination/Non-exclusive group
It is understood that our work is essentially Itinerant, not the establishment of permanent station, but the special mission in of places for brief periods, passing on after wards to other parts. We do not wish in any way to interfere with "Denominational" preferences and distinctions, but leave those who get help through our missions to attach themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting-house they choose!Mr. John and Mrs. Govan, in Scotland, founded the Faith Mission 1886. The Faith Mission is a Protestant evangelical movement that works in neglected rural communities. [Faith Mission didn't teach or baptize their converts. They did not practice/or having Sunday Christ's communion/emblem in their Faith Mission Prayer Union ], their converts were welcome to join the churches of their choice.
January 1904, p. 10 Bright Words We have received several letters, written in a kindly spirit, about the paragraph in our last regarding MR. Irvine’s Workers. These have been replied to personally; but we would like to say here that, after all we have since heard on either side, we are strengthened in our belief in the need of such a paragraph, to make clear that those workers do not belong to the Faith Mission, and that in various ways their methods and teaching differ from ours. At the same time, as said before, we honor the devotion and zeal, and believe in the sincerity, of many of these workers.
~~ 1902: Edward Cooney baptized his converts in 1902. ALL workers began to baptize, formed their converts into assemblies to meet together on 1st day of the week fellowship.
~~ 7/1906 Edward Cooney arranged to meet John Govan, the founder of Faith Mission to discourse doctrinal points with him. Edward Cooney Re-baptism converts into their fellowship.
Nathan ~ I'm aware that William Irvine copied a lot of things from the Faith Mission, but he disassociated himself from the Trinitarian teachings as well as incorporated the Living Witness Doctrine around 1904 into their belief system and gospel message. He also continued to receive funding from the Faith Mission until January 1901, although he was off on his own in 1897. Not exactly going out on faith, as he claimed to be doing, since he had a stipend coming in monthly. ![O_o](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/browraise.png) This Living Witness Doctrine was the point that Edward Cooney disagreed sharply with him on and later refused to teach it and called it heresy, which seemingly contributed to his ex-communication. That's what I was bringing out about the Birth of Exclusivity within the 2x2's from Chapter 7 in Cherie's book on TTT referenced previously.
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Post by faune on May 25, 2015 16:50:23 GMT -5
Sounds pretty exclusive to me. What religion isn't exclusive? Maybe philosophies like the Tao. Hinduism allows you to be a Hindu and be another religion, but for sure any of the 'one God' religions are all exclusive. How can they not be when they teach you have to be a Christian or a Muslim etc to go to heaven? Snow ~ I do agree that Christianity and Islam are two exclusive religions. However, some religious groups within Christianity take exclusivity to a whole new level in their teachings, which causes them to differ greatly from mainline Christianity. That's basically my point here. For instance, most churches today are not so greatly focused on following a set of legalistic rules to be considered a member of their group and do not treat folks outside their denominational belief as if they were not Christians, too. They basically accept these other church groups as being Christians and leave any judgment as to their spiritual being up to God Himself, who only knows what is in one's heart.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2015 16:58:15 GMT -5
What religion isn't exclusive? Maybe philosophies like the Tao. Hinduism allows you to be a Hindu and be another religion, but for sure any of the 'one God' religions are all exclusive. How can they not be when they teach you have to be a Christian or a Muslim etc to go to heaven? Snow ~ I do agree that Christianity and Islam are two exclusive religions. However, some religious groups within Christianity take exclusivity to a whole new level in their teachings, which causes them to differ greatly from mainline Christianity. That's basically my point here. For instance, most churches today are not so greatly focused on following a set of legalistic rules to be considered a member of their group and do not treat folks outside their denominational belief as if they were not Christians, too. They basically accept these other church groups as being Christians and leave any judgment as to their spiritual being up to God Himself, who only knows what is in one's heart. Yes, I agree that some do take to a higher level. But it really doesn't matter how big the pond if there are still people who won't go to heaven because they don't belong in your pond. (not your's personally, speaking generally here). One thing I think makes some groups more exclusive with more legalistic rules and a stricter interpretation of their sacred book, is that they really haven't studied the history of their religion or other religions. You have done a lot of studying of many different things. The more you learn about the roots of your religion the less exclusive, I believe, you would become. Because the newer religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam are just a combination of beliefs from older religions made to fit the culture they grew in.
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Post by faune on May 25, 2015 17:05:10 GMT -5
Snow, the two main gripes religious exes seem to have about F&W is: 1. They're exclusive. 2. They reject some of the doctrine that "orthodox" Christians are obsessed with e.g athanasianism. Yet if I didn't follow along with their obsessions like athanasianism I think they would exclude me. Go figure! I've tried to figure it out but not easy.... ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) I know a lot of exes who are Christians - I've never talked to anyone or heard anyone talk about the Athanasian Creed???!!! It wouldn't even register in the mind of exes. I've never heard the Creed quoted in a church and I had to look it up to see what it said. Basically, people leave and are continuing to leave the 2x2's because of the 2x2 creed which primarily focuses on: - exclusivity - an only true ministry that comes from the shores of Galilee - a totally works-based gospel - a whole bunch of man-made rules and regulations that cloud the simplicity that we have in Jesus - Jesus alone cannot save me (despite the hymn in the book) I've never heard of anyone primarily leaving the 2x2's because of the Trinity - 2x2 teaching on the nature and character of God is all over the place so it would be hard to ping the 2x2's on that one alone! Ross ~ I agree. Most of the folks I know who left the 2x2's had good reasons for doing so, myself included. However, what you described above pretty much sums up the reason for their discontent along with the willful deception and cover-ups of workers about a number of things, including their founder over the years. Also, a number of folks weren't to happy with their way of handling CSA by shuffling the offending workers to a new location of unsuspecting friends and history repeating itself. For a group that claims to God's Perfect Way, there surely was a lack in integrity and honesty within the group connected to all the secrecy within it.
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