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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 22:27:38 GMT -5
Ross, here's ONE problem: if we keep these Workers graves in good condition then we fall prey to this Quote #175, "Turn Workers graves into shrines." or this Quote #110, "Enjoy private burial grounds on some convention grounds if they are elite." or this Quote #126, "Are buried in very exclusive cemeteries with the more "humble" having the best sites."
ps why did John try to turn away Doug Parker?
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Post by Mary on Feb 15, 2015 22:38:45 GMT -5
Sounds like you can't win, Bert.
As for turning Doug Parker away from the convention grounds. I can't answer that one but I know Doug was the person who did the group a big favour by discovering that it was started in Ireland in the late 1890s and not by Jesus as Doug and many of us had been taught. He was considering going into the work but when he was told that it was not the true church like he believed then he was wise enough to go and find this out for himself rather than sit back in denial like the workers before him had done. Seems as if Doug was an honest man of no compromise. A man who feared God more than man.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 23:12:01 GMT -5
Mary, if I begin a new church today, following the teachings and example of Jesus - am I starting a new church, or following an old one? And if I am following an old church, how can I say I invented it myself?
You see how people on the TMB like to have every accusation both ways? Well if I started a church like we have now (itinerant ministry, meeting in homes, no name etc..) and I said I invented it - people on the TMB would then say no, I am merely following the one in the New Testament.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 0:45:54 GMT -5
Quote - "God has never pointed anyone to a man in order to be saved. He only points people to His Son."
You are stating a true fact, one we don't dispute. And I will join you the day the Workers start talking about themselves.
And truly, if we DID believe Workers were gods or saints, we would have truly turned their graves into shrines, or even dug them up their bones and shared them around so everyone could build shrines of their own.
And we would write our own books about our Workers. Keep a history on them.
Think about it.
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Post by Mary on Feb 16, 2015 1:14:45 GMT -5
Mary, if I begin a new church today, following the teachings and example of Jesus - am I starting a new church, or following an old one? And if I am following an old church, how can I say I invented it myself? You see how people on the TMB like to have every accusation both ways? Well if I started a church like we have now (itinerant ministry, meeting in homes, no name etc..) and I said I invented it - people on the TMB would then say no, I am merely following the one in the New Testament. If you start a church today then you are starting a church. Most churches claim to be following the teachings of Jesus. William Irvine was no more following the teaching and example of Jesus than any other church. Jesus healed the sick, cast out demons and all the things the workers do not do and many other churches do. Missionaries give up all they have and go out into the mission field. No where did Jesus chose unmarried apostles or tell them to go and sell their houses or fishing boats and give the money to him. In fact he said the opposite, and used the wedding invitation as an example of people saying they must sell this or that before they can follow him. For Jesus it was simply go. The no name thing is not true. It has a registered name in your state. Do you think Jesus had bank accounts? You are following Irvine's interpretation of the Bible. If you start a church Bert, then you are the founder. Other churches are honest so why is your church not honest? Saying because you are a following the NT church is a dishonest answer. I have no name, I am following in my father's footsteps is as silly as your answer. Nathan, most Christians would say that Jesus is the only way to heaven. That is not unique to your church. If Jesus is the only way then why is it necessary to have to profess through a worker, That tells me that you do not believe that Jesus is the only way.
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Post by Mary on Feb 16, 2015 1:31:11 GMT -5
I fully believe that we need to hear the Gospel from someone or how else would we know about it unless we hear it. But I do not believe that one must hear it through a 2x2 worker. Now days we can also read the Bible for ourselves and people can get saved by the spirit of God through reading the Bible. There are many people we can hear the Gospel through. Even you and me. Millions of people have never had an opportunity to hear a worker or Waldensian. Acts tells us the believers went every where preaching the word. God sends people to us the same as he did others. Do you believe that God can reveal himself through the pages of His Word and be saved? Being saved is accepting Jesus as their Lord and saviour.
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Post by Mary on Feb 16, 2015 1:46:23 GMT -5
I agree Nathan, be very careful as there are false teachers/prophets/preachers out there who will deceive you by their words. To me a false preacher is someone who preachers that one can only be saved by hearing them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 5:36:51 GMT -5
Quote - "I was amazed when I first went into a church and one of the congregation prayed that their ministers would continue to uphold the truth, would faithfully uphold the gospel and would not depart from the truth of Jesus."
Yes, people can say that. But just seeing a paid minister in a church, kind of negates the "truth of Jesus" seeing he repudiated ministers, salaries and churches.
Quote - "You would NEVER hear this in a convention or a Sunday morning meeting - if you said it, you would be frowned upon."
Really?
Quote - "The level of worker adoration in the 2x2 church is very unhealthy."
It was pretty unhealthy "back then" too. Who wrote this? "But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work."
Now Google Pope and Archbishop.
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Post by Mary on Feb 16, 2015 5:41:08 GMT -5
Where does it say that pastors are not allowed to get paid? An apostle, missionary is not a pastor. I am sure you can find verses where it says we are to support them. Why should an elder be allowed to work in a job and get paid but not a worker? The 70 no doubt had jobs and only went out one mission. Paul had a job. Why do workers get everything paid for but a pastor is not allowed? Why did Peter have a wife and a house but the workers do not allow it? Seems as if they are making their own rules.
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Post by maryhig on Feb 16, 2015 6:51:42 GMT -5
I agree Nathan, be very careful as there are false teachers/prophets/preachers out there who will deceive you by their words. To me a false preacher is someone who preachers that one can only be saved by hearing them. Yes I believe this too, you can't be saved through a man. We have to go through Jesus to be saved. By following him. No man can save us. A man can bring God to us but only God can save us! And Jesus said " He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved." matthew 24:13. We are just unprofitable servants. But saying that, the spirit in a man's heart shows us the way. Just like the spirit was is Peter, Paul, James etc. We will know by their lives if they are true men/women of God. But they can only bring God to us. They can't save us.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 7:19:09 GMT -5
Uh... wasn't Paul a "head Worker"? Wasn't Jesus' brother James the overseer of the Palestine churches? Wasn't Peter a senior Worker? Wasn't Phoebe a woman of some authority in the little home churches?
Quote - "I have never heard a church minister in churches that I have attended say "we will receive the best reward for what we do". Not sure about that. But if it is true then it would be because to a lot of church people, they hope salvation comes at no cost to themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 8:00:51 GMT -5
I agree Nathan, be very careful as there are false teachers/prophets/preachers out there who will deceive you by their words. To me a false preacher is someone who preachers that one can only be saved by hearing them. Yes I believe this too, you can't be saved through a man. We have to go through Jesus to be saved. By following him. No man can save us. A man can bring God to us but only God can save us! And Jesus said " He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved." matthew 24:13. We are just unprofitable servants. But saying that, the spirit in a man's heart shows us the way. Just like the spirit was is Peter, Paul, James etc. We will know by their lives if they are true men/women of God. But they can only bring God to us. They can't save us. Yes, I go along with this line of argument; I just don't think that any preacher should try to exhalt himself/ herself to such a position as to the point of saying that one can only be saved through himself/herself, a worker. Luke 14:11- for whomsover exalteh himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted; humble people should therefore avoid making such claims lest they be abased. IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 9:42:21 GMT -5
Thanks Ross for the photo. I wished TMB had more posts like that! I heard a man say that Peter was the first overseer, then Paul and then John in Revelations.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 16, 2015 12:48:11 GMT -5
Yes I believe this too, you can't be saved through a man. We have to go through Jesus to be saved. By following him. No man can save us. A man can bring God to us but only God can save us! And Jesus said " He that endures to the end, the same shall be saved." matthew 24:13. We are just unprofitable servants. But saying that, the spirit in a man's heart shows us the way. Just like the spirit was is Peter, Paul, James etc. We will know by their lives if they are true men/women of God. But they can only bring God to us. They can't save us. Yes, I go along with this line of argument; I just don't think that any preacher should try to exhalt himself/ herself to such a position as to the point of saying that one can only be saved through himself/herself, a worker. Luke 14:11- for whomsover exalteh himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted; humble people should therefore avoid making such claims lest they be abased. IMO. Didn't Jesus say that except the Father draw them they can not be ssavedc?
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 16, 2015 12:50:39 GMT -5
BTW, getting back to workers' graves. Lois McKnight used to tell of the time when she was in the French West Indies and she and her companion went to see Roy Taylor's grave and found it not...so they begin to hunt a new site maybe. Though they found his bones with some of his clothing still intact in the pauper's pile of bones. She got busy and got him reburied and worked with the workers in the US to get a marker for Roy's Grave!
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Post by snow on Feb 16, 2015 13:05:28 GMT -5
Mary, if I begin a new church today, following the teachings and example of Jesus - am I starting a new church, or following an old one? And if I am following an old church, how can I say I invented it myself? You see how people on the TMB like to have every accusation both ways? Well if I started a church like we have now (itinerant ministry, meeting in homes, no name etc..) and I said I invented it - people on the TMB would then say no, I am merely following the one in the New Testament. For me, it's never been an issue. The church was clearly started late 1890's and tries to follow NT practice (I don't think it does follow NT practice particularly but leave that to one side). Every church started at some time - even the RCC can't point back all the way to Christ. We didn't leave because the 2x2 church that we were in started in 1890's - it simply wasn't an issue. We left because the church/workers say "we are the only right way to heaven....you have to profess through a worker in order to be saved etc..." The moment that this is said you immediately know that the fellowship is of man, not of God. God has never pointed anyone to a man in order to be saved. He only points people to His Son. We, along with a lot of other people, would likely be in the 2x2 church today if it wasn't exclusive. If that is the reason why you left, because they thought they were the only true religion, you'd better get out of Christianity because you are still in a religion that believes it's the only true way etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 13:30:17 GMT -5
Yes, I go along with this line of argument; I just don't think that any preacher should try to exhalt himself/ herself to such a position as to the point of saying that one can only be saved through himself/herself, a worker. Luke 14:11- for whomsover exalteh himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted; humble people should therefore avoid making such claims lest they be abased. IMO. Didn't Jesus say that except the Father draw them they can not be ssavedc? Yes, I believe he did, so if He draws them in any church irrespective as to whether it is a worker,Pastor, vicar, priest or whosoever, won't they be saved also.? If the answer is yes then it would invalidate the exalted claim that one can only be saved through a worker. That is the point I was trying to emphasise. i suppose it is possible that some people may not be drawn by the Father, but by the influence of friends or it might be just fashionable for them to be with the in crowd doing what they do; in such a case it would not be genuine, it would be more like Pharisee behaviour, outward appearances, and whose righteousness must be exceeded in order for them to be saved and enter Heaven. You know, worshipping with lips and actions while the hearts are afar from God. Well that is my understanding anyway, but I could be wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 14:34:04 GMT -5
Who pays for a worker's tombstone? Family members or workers? I assume any stone that reads "Servant of God" was paid for by worker's funds.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2015 15:30:43 GMT -5
All I am saying is that I believe that if indeed it is God who draws you into a particular "church" He has a reason for it, He wants you to be there, because He knows the condition of your heart; on the other hand if it is not God but others, that draw you there, particularly friends that you wish to be associated with, then you may be there for the wrong reason. Your focus may be more on the company of friend rather than on God and His worship; it is likely that if the friends exit so would you. Now if it was indeed God that had drawn you there no one would be able to easily persuade you to move on and follow them, because God would already have known your heart and all about you, and your readiness to accept Him, and Unless there was a serious dispute or disagreement with others within the church, I believe that it would be a case of "solid as a rock I stand." And I will not be moved. Another thing to consider is that some folks are attracted to ways of worship, some like the quietness, serenity, others like lively boisterios and noisy worship full of music, clapping chanting; it is the atmosphere that they enjoy, fiery preaching too. I personally have invited people to gospel meeting and other friends have invited people to Sunday morning meetings and the feed back we/they received is that it is too quiet and too dead for them. Nothing about the messages at all, no, that is not entirely correct, one person I remember complained that too much is preached about the Old Testament and not enough about Jesus and the New Testament. One other who was a pastor in another church wanted to know what makes us think that our church is better than any other church. I like to examine all possibilities, and some preaching can bore people to death too and they lose concentration and interest and nod off to sleep. Surely if God drew a person into such a church, He would have known the conditions in that church.
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Post by maryhig on Feb 17, 2015 5:14:35 GMT -5
Why would you think Jesus is God, he never ever says he's God, He always prays to God. He even says "without the father I can do nothing" He prays for strength, he asks God to take care of his own and protect them. He even asks God to let this cup pass, but it is your will not mine. If he is willing to go through what God has sent him for then he isn't God. He even asks God to forgive the people that murdered him on the cross. He wouldn't have to do that if he was God. He tells us how to pray to God.
It says in the bible that he and God are one but that is in spirit God showed himself through Jesus because Jesus never ever lived for himself. He put his flesh to death so as he could show God in his life. And God loved him for it. That why he wants us at one with him and God. We have to do this too. This is how we show God to others. By taking up our cross (our sins), denying them and following his example. Jesus isn't God He is God's son and God lived in his heart and walked with him. It says that our body is the temple of the living God, but God's spirit can only enter in if our hearts are right and Jesus will enter our hearts also. Guiding us always showing us how to overcome the world as he did. If we believe in him. We will live by his word and this will bring us to God.
This is how I believe.
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Post by maryhig on Feb 17, 2015 5:31:46 GMT -5
Blimey that was a quick reply, I will read through them now :-)
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Post by maryhig on Feb 17, 2015 6:30:38 GMT -5
Hebrews 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a son? V 6 and again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
V9 he said God even thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. This is wisdom and understanding that Jesus was anointed with above anyone else but got it from God. He was the only one that God had completely and never sinned and God loved him for it. The only way he is God is letting God live in his heart. He is the first one and only one to completely to overcome satan in this world because he denied himself and let God live through him.
The hebrew for God Is Elohim. There is nothing about a trinity in the bible.
The foundation of the earth is the rock that Jesus tells peter about. Christ is that rock, he is the foundation the cornerstone. He came to show us how to live and we have to become a stone in that building, we are the earth he is talking about, our hearts are the heavens where he can come and lay his foundations. When we deny the sins of this flesh and put them to death as he did. It is only though his life do get to God.They will perish but you will remain means our lives will go and he will live through us. Like paul said "not I but christ liveith in me" Gal 2:20 this is because he gave his heart to God. Paul says "I die daily" It means he didn't live to please himself. But lived for God with christ in his heart.
Jesus will never come to an end because he never sinned, he will live forever and guide us.
God's word is of God, and thats all Jesus preached. All he was interested in was God he has always been with him. So his word was God. But he isn't God. Even Jesus himself says he is the son of God. He never professes to be God. It also says in John 1 that the word was with God. Jesus is God's mouth. He is the one that brings God's word to us.
As for revelation: 1:v1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God GAVE to him. To show to his servants what must shortly come to pass, and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. He sends it to us by his angel too if we are his servants. It also says in 1 v5 Jesus was a faithful witness, and first begotten of the dead. We're the dead when we don't know God. He was the first one to live the life that God sent him to live. He never sinned. Revelation 1:v11 says i am the alpha and Omega the first and the last. He is the first and the last who could ever live a pure life in this world and because of this he has overcome the world and can help us to do so also. He is the beginning and the end, the beginning of our new life and the end of our old. He is the christ the son of God whom God loves with all his heart because he gives his heart to his father.
Colossians 1:v13-17 In this he says he is in the image of the invisible God. Thats exactly what he is the image. Just like the moon give off the light of the sun but its not the sun. Its there to give light to a world in darkness. Just like Jesus did. He is the image of God but he isn't him. He is our lord, the first begotten son of God, the only one that never sinned he is the Christ in our hearts Our lord Jesus and he shall dwell in our hearts if our hearts are right.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 7:16:22 GMT -5
Blimey that was a quick reply, I will read through them now :-) Hi maryhig you missed something, a true cockney would say "cor blimey"
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Post by maryhig on Feb 17, 2015 7:26:35 GMT -5
Blimey that was a quick reply, I will read through them now :-) Hi maryhig you missed something, a true cockney would say "cor blimey" You can definitely tell I'm from the UK with that saying can't you Lol
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2015 7:30:00 GMT -5
Hi maryhig you missed something, a true cockney would say "cor blimey" You can definitely tell I'm from the UK with that saying can't you Lol Yep, and the best of British luck to you., sister.
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2015 12:18:20 GMT -5
1) Jesus pointed Saul of Tarsus to Ananias what he/saul must do (to be Saved)... Acts 9:6 6Jesus said to Saul “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”Let's be realistic - this is what Paul claimed. Many people have claimed that god/Jesus told them to do a lot of things.
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Post by rational on Feb 17, 2015 14:35:35 GMT -5
Let's be realistic - this is what Paul claimed. Many people have claimed that god/Jesus told them to do a lot of things. Jesus appeared and told Ananias in a dream to go to Paul to heal and baptized him. So, it wasn't just Paul who told others about his experienced in encountering Jesus. It seemed Paul had many witnesses, Ananias who confirmed his conversion story on the way to Damacus to arrest the Christians.
Acts 9:17-19 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.
NathanB - these are all self-reported visions that people claimed. There is no confirmation. No one else saw the vision(s). Deanna Laney claimed god talked to her.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 17, 2015 21:16:53 GMT -5
NathanB - these are all self-reported visions that people claimed. There is no confirmation. No one else saw the vision(s). Deanna Laney claimed god talked to her. Jesus appeared and told Ananias in a dream "Go to Paul, heal and baptized him." So, it wasn't just Paul who told others about his experienced in encountering Jesus. It seemed Paul had many witnesses, Ananias who confirmed his conversion from Jesus story on the way to Damacus to arrest the Christians there.
~~ It's up to the readers to believe in Ananias and Saul visions or NOT. I believe both men saw and heard Jesus themselves. Jesus gave a confirmation of himself when he appeared to Ananais and Saul. Ananais vision of the Lord Jesus settled and confirmed the story of Saul seeing Jesus is TRUE.
. Nathan can't you see Ananias's "vision" is also self-reported.
Did anyone else see him having that vision?
The men with Paul also never heard what Paul was supposed to have heard.
At that time in history it was commonly accepted that people could have "dreams" & "visions" that were not normal.
Now days, we understand there is something abnormal with the brain of someone who reports such incidents!
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