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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 0:29:38 GMT -5
All I am saying is that I believe that if indeed it is God who draws you into a particular "church" He has a reason for it, He wants you to be there, because He knows the condition of your heart; on the other hand if it is not God but others, that draw you there, particularly friends that you wish to be associated with, then you may be there for the wrong reason. Your focus may be more on the company of friend rather than on God and His worship; it is likely that if the friends exit so would you. Now if it was indeed God that had drawn you there no one would be able to easily persuade you to move on and follow them, because God would already have known your heart and all about you, and your readiness to accept Him, and Unless there was a serious dispute or disagreement with others within the church, I believe that it would be a case of "solid as a rock I stand." And I will not be moved. Another thing to consider is that some folks are attracted to ways of worship, some like the quietness, serenity, others like lively boisterios and noisy worship full of music, clapping chanting; it is the atmosphere that they enjoy, fiery preaching too. I personally have invited people to gospel meeting and other friends have invited people to Sunday morning meetings and the feed back we/they received is that it is too quiet and too dead for them. Nothing about the messages at all, no, that is not entirely correct, one person I remember complained that too much is preached about the Old Testament and not enough about Jesus and the New Testament. One other who was a pastor in another church wanted to know what makes us think that our church is better than any other church. I like to examine all possibilities, and some preaching can bore people to death too and they lose concentration and interest and nod off to sleep. Surely if God drew a person into such a church, He would have known the conditions in that church. i don't believe God draws anyone into any particular church, He draws them to Himself and those whom He draws have fellowship with Him and His people in Christ there is only one church and in that church they have fellowship with Him and His Father many churches have many different theories even if only slightly they are still different Jesus brought only one message there can not be differing theories on that one message most if not all churches do not have fellowship one with another because they all have their own differing theories and they do not agree in theories, they are not one Christ is one and His must be one with Him
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 18, 2015 0:48:46 GMT -5
All I am saying is that I believe that if indeed it is God who draws you into a particular "church" He has a reason for it, He wants you to be there, because He knows the condition of your heart; on the other hand if it is not God but others, that draw you there, particularly friends that you wish to be associated with, then you may be there for the wrong reason. Your focus may be more on the company of friend rather than on God and His worship; it is likely that if the friends exit so would you. Now if it was indeed God that had drawn you there no one would be able to easily persuade you to move on and follow them, because God would already have known your heart and all about you, and your readiness to accept Him, and Unless there was a serious dispute or disagreement with others within the church, I believe that it would be a case of "solid as a rock I stand." And I will not be moved. Another thing to consider is that some folks are attracted to ways of worship, some like the quietness, serenity, others like lively boisterios and noisy worship full of music, clapping chanting; it is the atmosphere that they enjoy, fiery preaching too. I personally have invited people to gospel meeting and other friends have invited people to Sunday morning meetings and the feed back we/they received is that it is too quiet and too dead for them. Nothing about the messages at all, no, that is not entirely correct, one person I remember complained that too much is preached about the Old Testament and not enough about Jesus and the New Testament. One other who was a pastor in another church wanted to know what makes us think that our church is better than any other church. I like to examine all possibilities, and some preaching can bore people to death too and they lose concentration and interest and nod off to sleep. Surely if God drew a person into such a church, He would have known the conditions in that church. i don't believe God draws anyone into any particular church, He draws them to Himself and those whom He draws have fellowship with Him and His people in Christ there is only one church and in that church they have fellowship with Him and His Father many churches have many different theories even if only slightly they are still different Jesus brought only one message there can not be differing theories on that one message most if not all churches do not have fellowship one with another because they all have their own differing theories and they do not agree in theories, they are not one Christ is one and His must be one with Him Then how does one decide which church to attend?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 4:30:10 GMT -5
i don't believe God draws anyone into any particular church, He draws them to Himself and those whom He draws have fellowship with Him and His people in Christ there is only one church and in that church they have fellowship with Him and His Father many churches have many different theories even if only slightly they are still different Jesus brought only one message there can not be differing theories on that one message most if not all churches do not have fellowship one with another because they all have their own differing theories and they do not agree in theories, they are not one Christ is one and His must be one with Him Then how does one decide which church to attend?
Now this is a very good question, given that there are so many churches in the whole wide world; any helpful and convincing answers? How about areas in the world where F&W's never reached but other churches had reached?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2015 5:41:41 GMT -5
So, can't one call on the name of the Lord in any church and be saved? Or is it exclusively in a particular church, That is the million dollar question.
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Post by rational on Feb 18, 2015 11:32:38 GMT -5
Paul's vision and message was personally for him, and him alone from Jesus Himself. Ananias vision about Saul's changed of heart was to him personally from Jesus Himself. The women who killed her sons by hitting them in the head with rocks also claimed that her vision was personal. It changed her life. It ended the life of some of her children and left another in a vegetative state. People claiming to hear voices/see visions actually believe they have heard the voice and seen the vision. They may report it and in some cases act on the 'vision' they have been sent. Why do you believe a tale from 2,000 years ago, with no verifiable way to question Paul but you do not believe that god was speaking to Deanna Laney? Both claim to have heard the voice of god and both acted on the information imparted. BTW - she was acquitted. The jury ruled she was insane. How would Paul have fared today? A case of sunstroke? Perhaps a mild stroke? A temporal lobe epileptic seizure? Given the dependencies between the records of the event it would be difficult to determine what actually took place.
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Post by rational on Feb 18, 2015 12:16:44 GMT -5
You can tell by the result or the outcome whether it was God who told him/her vision or NOT. Why, would God tell the woman to kill her children what is the reason for doing that? Anyone can tell she is crazy! and a brick short in her head. She claims that god told er to kill her children and provided her with the reason why. Remember that god told Abraham to kill his son and he, without question, was off to follow gods command. Was Abraham crazy? You seem to forget that god has commanded people to do some bad/disgusting things. I am guessing these people also heard the voice of god. God told Abraham to kill his child and Abraham proceeded to follow the instructions. God told Deanna Laney to kill her children and she proceeded to follow the instructions. How do they differ? If you believe in the creator of the universe, when that entity tells you to do something you need to follow the instructions. Thinking logically, would the creator of the universe have created a being that could not tell the real voice from the unreal voice? If you really believe in an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent omnibenevolent entity and you hear a voice claiming to be that entity, when it says "Jump" your next action should be asking how high. Abraham and Deanna Laney are both victims. Neither are fit to be parents.
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2015 18:23:42 GMT -5
Then how does one decide which church to attend?
The one you read in the New Testament the 1st century fellowship, which Jesus and the apostles started. Jesus said to Peter, Upon this Rock, I will build MY church and the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it."Ok, so the RCC is the right church?
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Post by snow on Feb 18, 2015 18:25:57 GMT -5
The women who killed her sons by hitting them in the head with rocks also claimed that her vision was personal. It changed her life. It ended the life of some of her children and left another in a vegetative state. People claiming to hear voices/see visions actually believe they have heard the voice and seen the vision. They may report it and in some cases act on the 'vision' they have been sent. Why do you believe a tale from 2,000 years ago, with no verifiable way to question Paul but you do not believe that god was speaking to Deanna Laney? Both claim to have heard the voice of god and both acted on the information imparted. BTW - she was acquitted. The jury ruled she was insane. How would Paul have fared today? A case of sunstroke? Perhaps a mild stroke? A temporal lobe epileptic seizure? Given the dependencies between the records of the event it would be difficult to determine what actually took place. You can tell by the result or the outcome whether it was God who told him/her vision or NOT. Why, would God tell the woman to kill her children what is the reason for doing that? Anyone can tell she is crazy! and a brick short in her head.
You can see the amazing result came out through Saul/Paul vision, the changed in his life. We have Paul's own words, Jesus own words, and Ananias own words of the event. Saul new life has preserved or saved Jesus fellowship from going down the wrong path, and the world in knowing who Jesus really is God and Man in one body.
1) Paul wrote in Colossians 2:9 For in him/Jesus dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
2) Paul wrote in I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God! was manifest in the Flesh!, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, PREACHED to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up in glory.God has given us brains, so can discern what is the different between true and false.God told Abraham to sacrifice his son. You can see how someone who thinks God is talking to them would possibly believe that was what God wanted from them. It's not like he never has asked someone to kill their child for him as a test.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 2:58:06 GMT -5
i don't believe God draws anyone into any particular church, He draws them to Himself and those whom He draws have fellowship with Him and His people in Christ there is only one church and in that church they have fellowship with Him and His Father many churches have many different theories even if only slightly they are still different Jesus brought only one message there can not be differing theories on that one message most if not all churches do not have fellowship one with another because they all have their own differing theories and they do not agree in theories, they are not one Christ is one and His must be one with Him Then how does one decide which church to attend?
one doesn't decide, it is Gods church He decides. one should ask Him
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 3:03:58 GMT -5
So, can't one call on the name of the Lord in any church and be saved? Or is it exclusively in a particular church, That is the million dollar question. but surely you must know? i mean where is the best place for your answer? knowing what God thinks of mans thoughts when you find the church/people which follow Gods word/will to the letter you have the answer to that million dollar question
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 3:08:45 GMT -5
I believe...It is exclusive to the church which Jesus and apostles started in the 1st century and through down the centuries.~~ Why are there so MANY churches today? 38,000 denominations. Good Video! to listen.www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH79F0Hn56UThe Bride/True Church of Christ survives through the Centuries!Romans 11:1-5 Elijah said, “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me” ? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.~~ 2) The ALPS -The Story of the Waldenses: God has always had a remnant left on the planet throughout the ages of time. This is the story of one such group, who escaped to the Alps, when Rome was about to conquer Jerusalem. They were, part of this woman in the wilderness, spoken of, in Scripture (Revelation 12: 9-17). Paul was in Rome during Reign of Nero 68 A.D. he had many converts. They fled to the Alps Valley of Piedmont (Northern Italy, Southern part of France) in the 4th century. Emperor Constantine. Paganism combine with Christianity in Rome. Sun Worship. At (21:00)Their Missionaries went forth 2 and 2 as Jesus send forth His apostles. The older ones to train his younger companions. They suffered/tortured greatly by the Roman Church.www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2lPB5xxuA&NR=1&feature=fvwp Anyone can call on the name of the Lord and be saved - whether they in a church (the meaning of the word is ekklesia which is simply a body of Christians) or outside of a church. Forget the structure, forget religion - where 2 or 3 are gathered together in Christ's name He will be with them. of course they can but as He has said it doesn't mean that He will open the door to them. i know you not, but Lord have we not----------------
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 3:10:15 GMT -5
The one you read in the New Testament the 1st century fellowship, which Jesus and the apostles started. Jesus said to Peter, Upon this Rock, I will build MY church and the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it." Ok, so the RCC is the right church? what does God say?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 19, 2015 3:24:05 GMT -5
Then how does one decide which church to attend?
one doesn't decide, it is Gods church He decides. one should ask Him Ah, and how do you know when he tells you?
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 19, 2015 4:12:17 GMT -5
Ah, and how do you know when he tells you?
God revealed to me by vision and dreams that the workers are His servants.
In my dream it came so clearly that Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor were just like Paul and Timothy in our own generation. You mean every night that whatever you dream has got to be accurate?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 4:41:50 GMT -5
So, can't one call on the name of the Lord in any church and be saved? Or is it exclusively in a particular church, That is the million dollar question. but surely you must know? i mean where is the best place for your answer? knowing what God thinks of mans thoughts when you find the church/people which follow Gods word/will to the letter you have the answer to that million dollar question "When you find the church/people which follow God's word/will to the letter?" That seems to suggest then that there is only one such church, a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But all or most churches make that claim and people being people are not perfect, so do all of them really follow God's will to the letter? As a member of the F&W fellowship, I cannot boldly claim that everyone in the fellowship follows God's word/will to the letter, and since all the people make up "the church" then our fellowship may be falling short also and not perfect in that respect.The church really is the whole body of people collectively making up the church, the shepherds and the sheep. IMO. Recent activities have proven that we are not the perfect church, we have failings just like others and we must work to correct them.
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Post by bubbles on Feb 19, 2015 6:44:36 GMT -5
but surely you must know? i mean where is the best place for your answer? knowing what God thinks of mans thoughts when you find the church/people which follow Gods word/will to the letter you have the answer to that million dollar question "When you find the church/people which follow God's word/will to the letter?" That seems to suggest then that there is only one such church, a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But all or most churches make that claim and people being people are not perfect, so do all of them really follow God's will to the letter? As a member of the F&W fellowship, I cannot boldly claim that everyone in the fellowship follows God's word/will to the letter, and since all the people make up "the church" then our fellowship may be falling short also and not perfect in that respect.The church really is the whole body of people collectively making up the church, the shepherds and the sheep. IMO. Recent activities have proven that we are not the perfect church, we have failings just like others and we must work to correct them. Do you think its important to discover his will for your own life individually?
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2015 12:29:53 GMT -5
Ok, so the RCC is the right church? what does God say? How would I know? As you have pointed out many times, God chooses who he talks to. He hasn't chosen to talk to me. I would be willing to talk to him if he wanted to have a conversation, but so far he's been silent. Nathan seems to think that the RCC were once the true church. I don't know who is now if the true church went off the tracks in the 4th century.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2015 13:08:37 GMT -5
"When you find the church/people which follow God's word/will to the letter?" That seems to suggest then that there is only one such church, a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But all or most churches make that claim and people being people are not perfect, so do all of them really follow God's will to the letter? As a member of the F&W fellowship, I cannot boldly claim that everyone in the fellowship follows God's word/will to the letter, and since all the people make up "the church" then our fellowship may be falling short also and not perfect in that respect.The church really is the whole body of people collectively making up the church, the shepherds and the sheep. IMO. Recent activities have proven that we are not the perfect church, we have failings just like others and we must work to correct them. Do you think its important to discover his will for your own life individually? Yes indeed, then I think that you are more qualified to help point the way for others and encourage others by example. Let your light so shine that others may see the Christ within you.
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Post by bubbles on Feb 19, 2015 15:39:02 GMT -5
How would I know? As you have pointed out many times, God chooses who he talks to. He hasn't chosen to talk to me. I would be willing to talk to him if he wanted to have a conversation, but so far he's been silent. Nathan seems to think that the RCC were once the true church. I don't know who is now if the true church went off the tracks in the 4th century. Snow I dont think its about who god chooses to speak to. He is speaking to everyone via his word. Its more about are we listening and more importantly do we want to hear from him. He doesnt speak in a loud voice. In the quietness stillness he speaks to our hearts. Im sure you know this from meditation. The true church can only ever be individuals because they are temple of the holy spirit. Where he says he is. He is our dwelling place. If people are loving one another. He is there.
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Post by rational on Feb 19, 2015 15:54:45 GMT -5
God did NOT want Abraham actually to kill/sacrifice his own son Isaac, it was only a test because God had provided a lamb caught in the thicket to be offered up to Him. Spin it however you wish - god told Abraham to kill his son and Abraham, not to his credit, was willing to follow the orders without thinking for himself. Abraham, in this instance, was a terrible model of a human being. What kind of a leader tells followers to kill? And Abraham's best friend was someone who told him to kill his son. And, sadly, Abraham was willing to do it. What sort of a father would kill his son? After reading about the biblical example of a father listening to the voices and being willing to kill, why would a person who had also heard voices telling them to kill not be expected to follow what the voices said?
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Post by maryhig on Feb 19, 2015 18:48:34 GMT -5
Snow I dont think its about who god chooses to speak to. He is speaking to everyone via his word. Its more about are we listening and more importantly do we want to hear from him. He doesnt speak in a loud voice. In the quietness stillness he speaks to our hearts. Im sure you know this from meditation. The true church can only ever be individuals because they are temple of the holy spirit. Where he says he is. He is our dwelling place. If people are loving one another. He is there. This is the problem why we have 40,000 plus denominations and it keeps growing every week... everyone does his own way of worship, sheep scattered all directions, no Unity, and Oneness of fellowship.Nathan, I'm afraid I have to disagree with you, Just because we are individual temples of God doesn't mean we are scattered at all, it means we will be closer to each other and our hearts will be open for him to dwell in and he can talk to us in the depths of our hearts and we will be a living soul, showing his love in our lives. Just like the lords prayer says. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. On earth as it is in heaven. If God is in our hearts we will do his will and each one will know when they hear God in each others heart. What bubbles has written is right! There may well be 40,000 different denominations, but if they believe in Jesus, and God's spirit is in his people from any of those churches, then they will know each other when they hear his word and they will be at one in the spirit and in the heart. Just as God is at one with christ and the holy spirit. God and his son can also be at one with us his church of faithful and loving believers. John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we are. And also, v21 That they all may be one, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee , that they also may be one in us. That the world may believe that thou hast sent me. How will the world know that God has sent him, and we are at one with him? Because his people will be living out what Jesus has taught them, even up to this day and the world will see him through his people by their lives, loving their neighbours as themselves and denying themselves. The verses' in John are also proof that Jesus isn't God. You say there is a trinity because the three are one, but God wants us at one with him too. Jesus, God and the holy spirit are one in heart, mind and strength, and if we love God we are at one with them and each other too through his word and the spirit in our hearts. Those who have ears to hear, listen to what the spirit says. If you are at one with God and christ you will have the ears to hear with wisdom and understanding and you will know when people are speaking the word of God.
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Post by bubbles on Feb 19, 2015 18:49:25 GMT -5
Snow I dont think its about who god chooses to speak to. He is speaking to everyone via his word. Its more about are we listening and more importantly do we want to hear from him. He doesnt speak in a loud voice. In the quietness stillness he speaks to our hearts. Im sure you know this from meditation. The true church can only ever be individuals because they are temple of the holy spirit. Where he says he is. He is our dwelling place. If people are loving one another. He is there. This is the problem why we have 40,000 plus denominations and it keeps growing every week... everyone does his own way of worship, sheep scattered all directions, no Unity, and Oneness of fellowship.Ahh dear nate This is why the body of christ seems scattered. If we look at the bigger picture. It would be impossibe to fit into one denominational church. Too many chiefs not enough indians. JOKE! IF the holy spirit is our teacher, comforter and guide who leads us into all truth. Then we must at some point allow him to lead. He leads in peace. Unity is the result of agreement. When agreement then unity then the blessing. In anything. Im begining to conclude that I can have fellowship with most denomina tional types depending on love acceptance and agreement.
The them and us thing doesnt cut it for me any more.
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Post by rational on Feb 19, 2015 19:56:23 GMT -5
God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac was only a test. God stopped Abraham before he was about to kill his son. Abraham proved to God, he loved God more than his own son. Again, what sort of a leader would make a father choose between himself and killing his son?Point to the biblical text to support this claim. It is something made up to support a specific point of view. But then, Jesus also preached that his followers should hate their entire family. A better translation for miseō would be "detest, loathe, or abhor". Of course, if you knew that your parent would kill you if god said to does not lead to much of a loving relationship. Of course, the voice of god always explains. It was to prevent the children from sinning and save them from hell. It was a test to see if the woman really loved god more than she loved her children. God wanted to be sure she would follow orders without question. Just as Abraham did. This is not a healthy situation.
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2015 19:59:19 GMT -5
Spin it however you wish - god told Abraham to kill his son and Abraham, not to his credit, was willing to follow the orders without thinking for himself. Abraham, in this instance, was a terrible model of a human being. What kind of a leader tells followers to kill? And Abraham's best friend was someone who told him to kill his son. And, sadly, Abraham was willing to do it. What sort of a father would kill his son? After reading about the biblical example of a father listening to the voices and being willing to kill, why would a person who had also heard voices telling them to kill not be expected to follow what the voices said? God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac was only a test. God stopped Abraham before he was about to kill his son. Abraham proved to God, he loved God more than his own son. God wanted to reveal to Abraham of His plan of Salvation through the death of His own Son for Humanity.
Did the voice explain the reason before or afterward why he/she wanted that lady to kill her children?Nathan, if a God told me to kill one of my children I would not only tell him/her no but I would also tell them they had lost all my respect and if they want to send me to hell for not obeying, go for it. That would be the appropriate response to a God that would ask such a thing.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 19, 2015 20:37:04 GMT -5
This is the problem why we have 40,000 plus denominations and it keeps growing every week... everyone does his own way of worship, sheep scattered all directions, no Unity, and Oneness of fellowship. Ahh dear nate This is why the body of christ seems scattered. If we look at the bigger picture. It would be impossibe to fit into one denominational church. Too many chiefs not enough indians. JOKE! IF the holy spirit is our teacher, comforter and guide who leads us into all truth. Then we must at some point allow him to lead. He leads in peace. Unity is the result of agreement. When agreement then unity then the blessing. In anything. I'm beginning to conclude that I can have fellowship with most denomina tional types depending on love, acceptance, and agreement.
Bubbles!
You make such statement that you "can have fellowship with most denominational types" & then you start adding on conditions by saying depending on ----& then you name the qualifications.
Isn't that exactly how so many Christian denominations came to be?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 0:42:22 GMT -5
one doesn't decide, it is Gods church He decides. one should ask Him Ah, and how do you know when he tells you?
when one has peace about the question which is no longer a question because one has an answer
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 0:50:48 GMT -5
but surely you must know? i mean where is the best place for your answer? knowing what God thinks of mans thoughts when you find the church/people which follow Gods word/will to the letter you have the answer to that million dollar question "When you find the church/people which follow God's word/will to the letter?" That seems to suggest then that there is only one such church, a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But all or most churches make that claim and people being people are not perfect, so do all of them really follow God's will to the letter? As a member of the F&W fellowship, I cannot boldly claim that everyone in the fellowship follows God's word/will to the letter, and since all the people make up "the church" then our fellowship may be falling short also and not perfect in that respect.The church really is the whole body of people collectively making up the church, the shepherds and the sheep. IMO. Recent activities have proven that we are not the perfect church, we have failings just like others and we must work to correct them. you are right a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord it cannot be anything else all my make that claim and if they are in Christ and of Christ their claim would be true don't forget a church is people just like the five wise and five foolish who were together and not doubt having fellowship together nobody suggest that we are perfect in fact that is impossible for to be so
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2015 0:54:26 GMT -5
"When you find the church/people which follow God's word/will to the letter?" That seems to suggest then that there is only one such church, a church that has one foundation in Jesus Christ, our Lord. But all or most churches make that claim and people being people are not perfect, so do all of them really follow God's will to the letter? As a member of the F&W fellowship, I cannot boldly claim that everyone in the fellowship follows God's word/will to the letter, and since all the people make up "the church" then our fellowship may be falling short also and not perfect in that respect.The church really is the whole body of people collectively making up the church, the shepherds and the sheep. IMO. Recent activities have proven that we are not the perfect church, we have failings just like others and we must work to correct them. Do you think its important to discover his will for your own life individually? i don't think it's a discovery on our part but more a revelation on Gods part, if man tries to discover for himself he will only get his own answers
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