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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 5:20:23 GMT -5
His personality equaled Adam's until Adam rebelled. Jesus told the naughty one at his time of temptation.."man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Adam and Eve did this until the naughty one (actually he was a very naughty one) beguiled them into disobeying God. That's why you and I were born with a naughty nature. I don't believe that Adam ever equaled Christ. Adam sinned like we all sin, "each one enticed by his own desire." Why wasn't JC enticed by his? Was it simply because he was inflated with an extra measure of the holy spirit, what I call, "power-pack-theology"? You misunderstand my point, but maybe that's my fault? Until Adam sinned, he was equal to Jesus in sinlessness and living by every word of God. How long that state lasted we do not know. The first Adam was created a "living soul," whereas the second Adam, Jesus, is a "quickening spirit." Jesus sends the Holy Spirit to us to quicken us in our walk with God. Adam was created to walk with God, but eventually he rebelled. Jesus succeeded where Adam failed. Adam and Eve gave way to the temptations of the devil, whereas Jesus succeeded in resisting the devil. Jesus was born a human being, pure and sinless, conceived of the Holy Spirit. Into this human being, God "poured his Spirit without measure." This is how Jesus was able to resist temptation throughout his life. He sought only to do his Father's will, never his own will. He had the power of God in him, by virtue of the indwelling Spirit, to remain faithful to his Heavenly Father. This same spirit he sends forth to us. Here's a little bit of "power pack theology." John 1:12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."
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Post by Lee on Dec 24, 2014 10:39:05 GMT -5
There is no redemption to talk about apart from our will becoming his will. Exactly. Salvation is a process, not a one off event. If God's will becomes our will, then we become one with Jesus and one with the Father, just as Jesus and the Father are one. That is redemption. We return to what it was in the beginning of creation. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God (JC c.AD30) Its one thing to teach the saints are works in progress. Its another thing to teach that one becomes a saint by their effort and works after the manner you suggest Jesus acquired his personality and position. If anything defines the saints, its their being chosen by God. If anything is being demonstrated by redemption it is God's sovereignty. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 10:56:07 GMT -5
Exactly. Salvation is a process, not a one off event. If God's will becomes our will, then we become one with Jesus and one with the Father, just as Jesus and the Father are one. That is redemption. We return to what it was in the beginning of creation. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God (JC c.AD30) Its one thing to teach the saints are works in progress. Its another thing to teach that one becomes a saint by their effort and works after the manner you suggest Jesus acquired his personality and position. If anything defines the saints, its their being chosen by God. If anything is being demonstrated by redemption it is God's sovereignty. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.Clearly you do not understand what I say. Salvation is a process which begins the moment we decide to follow Jesus and lasts until the moment we leave this temporal body. It involves faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God, the grace of God to enable us to do his will and of course our works which God has called us to do. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is something we must take whole. It should not be carved up into things like the gospel of grace or the gospel of works, etc. All are important in our daily walk with God. Of course God is sovereign and God calls us to serve him. I am at a loss over some of your remarks. Exactly what do you mean by "Jesus acquired his personality and position?" Either I am not explaining myself properly (very possible), or you are not understanding me. You seem to be extracting things that I am not saying/meaning, and not for the first time either?
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Post by Lee on Dec 25, 2014 1:25:47 GMT -5
You said Jesus was just a man. Therefore any man could have been Jesus if God had plugged him with the holy spirit. Or if he'd been duly obedient. This is an impoverished view of personality whether were talking about JC or someone else.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2014 3:08:20 GMT -5
You said Jesus was just a man. Therefore any man could have been Jesus if God had plugged him with the holy spirit. Or if he'd been duly obedient. This is an impoverished view of personality whether were talking about JC or someone else. Irrespective how you look at it, it is God's standard and his plan. God wants us all to follow Jesus in his way, truth and life. That's why he sent us a perfect man to show us what God wants and who also made provision for our failings, in order that we too can become "joint-heirs" with Christ. Awesome plan if you ask me, not an impoverished one!
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Post by Lee on Dec 29, 2014 22:43:41 GMT -5
A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. Such a soteriology denies the creator God.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2014 0:41:29 GMT -5
A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. Such a soteriology denies the creator God. Soteriology is the study of religious doctrines of salvation. Salvation theory occupies a place of special significance in many religions.I happen to be a Humanist, Lee. (Just got the latest The Humanist magazine today- Would love to share it with you)
Can you show me anything in the belief in Humanism where it states according to you that, "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. "
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Post by Lee on Dec 30, 2014 1:04:19 GMT -5
A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. Such a soteriology denies the creator God. Soteriology is the study of religious doctrines of salvation. Salvation theory occupies a place of special significance in many religions.I happen to be a Humanist, Lee. (Just got the latest The Humanist magazine today- Would love to share it with you)
Can you show me anything in the belief in Humanism where it states according to you that, "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. "
No, not in the creed of humanism. But in theism, we hold that God is distinct from creation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 1:30:36 GMT -5
Quote - "But in theism, we hold that God is distinct from creation."
This is Dawkins argument, ie "On the basis that God cannot be outside of the universe... the following logic applies...."
But the faulty logic is in his initial assumption. By doctrine, and by logic, God MUST exist outside of earth and time.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 30, 2014 1:39:51 GMT -5
Soteriology is the study of religious doctrines of salvation. Salvation theory occupies a place of special significance in many religions.I happen to be a Humanist, Lee. (Just got the latest The Humanist magazine today- Would love to share it with you)
Can you show me anything in the belief in Humanism where it states according to you that, "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology. "
No, not in the creed of humanism. But in theism, we hold that God is distinct from creation. But that isn't what you said, Lee.
You said that, "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology!
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Post by Lee on Jan 1, 2015 0:35:40 GMT -5
Right. There are two dissimilar views of Jesus that are more or less entertained by Christians:
Jesus was a man who became God in some sense by acquiring his attributes.
Jesus was God who became a man. He was fully man and fully God.
Man comprises the center of the first interpretation. It is humanistic.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2015 6:04:19 GMT -5
Many Christians do not see Jesus as a man becoming God (himself) or indeed God becoming Jesus. They see him as a human being who is now reigning over the universe in his glorified body as Mighty God by reason of his inheritance and position. The Father remains both Jesus's Father and God in exactly the same way God is our Father and God.
Admittedly the people who believe this are a minority of Christians, but they are far from being a small minority and more and more people who apply proper study to the matter are rejecting previously indoctrinated ideas as to whom God and Jesus are thought to be and are being enlightened. We can only do it for ourselves but it takes an open mind, free of preconceived ideas, honesty, humility and a desire before God to search out his truth. This is something many have no will to do, rather they grapple for explanations to suit their comfort zone.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 1, 2015 14:37:16 GMT -5
Right. There are two dissimilar views of Jesus that are more or less entertained by Christians: J esus was a man who became God in some sense by acquiring his attributes. Jesus was God who became a man. He was fully man and fully God. Man comprises the center of the first interpretation. It is humanistic. You aren't understanding what I said, Lee.
You stated that: "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology."
The term Soteriology which is the study of religious doctrines concerning salvation. Salvation from what? "Sin" of course
Humanism is NOT a religion and doesn't believe in using "sin" & "salvation" as rewards & punishments.
"Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith (fideism)."Where do you get the idea that "A man-that-became-God-soteriology," is a humanistic belief?
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Post by Lee on Jan 1, 2015 22:44:25 GMT -5
The words humanism and humanistic are related and yet distinct. I don't think I have misused them.
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Post by Lee on Jan 1, 2015 22:51:17 GMT -5
Many Christians do not see Jesus as a man becoming God (himself) or indeed God becoming Jesus. They see him as a human being who is now reigning over the universe in his glorified body as Mighty God by reason of his inheritance and position. The Father remains both Jesus's Father and God in exactly the same way God is our Father and God. Admittedly the people who believe this are a minority of Christians, but they are far from being a small minority and more and more people who apply proper study to the matter are rejecting previously indoctrinated ideas as to whom God and Jesus are thought to be and are being enlightened. We can only do it for ourselves but it takes an open mind, free of preconceived ideas, honesty, humility and a desire before God to search out his truth. This is something many have no will to do, rather they grapple for explanations to suit their comfort zone. Presidents and PM's, Kings and Queens ect.. .. all officials govern first by their office or position and often very secondly, by their personality. Are you considering JC in this manner? Why should JC be The Son of God? What's so special about him?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 2, 2015 2:52:37 GMT -5
The words humanism and humanistic are related and yet distinct. I don't think I have misused them. Aren't you missing the point?
You stated that "A man-that-became-God-soteriology, is a humanistic soteriology."
If we who are humanists don't believe there is a god, how can we have any position on the whole idea of "a man that became a God?"
humanism noun
: a system of values and beliefs that is based on the idea that people are basically good and that problems can be solved using reason instead of religion
"humanistic" is the adjective
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 3:17:33 GMT -5
Many Christians do not see Jesus as a man becoming God (himself) or indeed God becoming Jesus. They see him as a human being who is now reigning over the universe in his glorified body as Mighty God by reason of his inheritance and position. The Father remains both Jesus's Father and God in exactly the same way God is our Father and God. Admittedly the people who believe this are a minority of Christians, but they are far from being a small minority and more and more people who apply proper study to the matter are rejecting previously indoctrinated ideas as to whom God and Jesus are thought to be and are being enlightened. We can only do it for ourselves but it takes an open mind, free of preconceived ideas, honesty, humility and a desire before God to search out his truth. This is something many have no will to do, rather they grapple for explanations to suit their comfort zone. Presidents and PM's, Kings and Queens ect.. .. all officials govern first by their office or position and often very secondly, by their personality. Are you considering JC in this manner? Why should JC be The Son of God? What's so special about him?John 3: 6 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.Jesus represented God on Earth. God the Father is revealed to us "through" Jesus.
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 13:33:20 GMT -5
Why is the promise of 'everlasting life' such a plus? I am more than willing to just die and that be the end of it. I can't imagine living forever in heaven. Now if we were born again and again, and got to learn and do stuff in an afterlife, then maybe eternity wouldn't be as bad, but singing, praising god and playing harps for ever and ever, really doesn't appeal to me at all.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 14:01:57 GMT -5
Why is the promise of 'everlasting life' such a plus? I am more than willing to just die and that be the end of it. I can't imagine living forever in heaven. Now if we were born again and again, and got to learn and do stuff in an afterlife, then maybe eternity wouldn't be as bad, but singing, praising god and playing harps for ever and ever, really doesn't appeal to me at all. Maybe you could read a book instead?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 15:42:21 GMT -5
If one goes to a lost eternity and is thrown into Hell's fire won't the body or spirit be burnt up after a few minutes in the same way that a body cremated is burnt to ashes.? In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man seems to have survived in the fire a long time and was able to speak and observe Lazarus afar off. Just some rambling thoughts.
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 16:54:37 GMT -5
If one goes to a lost eternity and is thrown into Hell's fire won't the body or spirit be burnt up after a few minutes in the same way that a body cremated is burnt to ashes.? In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the rich man seems to have survived in the fire a long time and was able to speak and observe Lazarus afar off. Just some rambling thoughts. Which is another thing about heaven that would make it hell for me, knowing there were others suffering while I was okay. And if I could see this like the story of Lazarus and rich man indicate, that would be hundreds of times worse imo. Couldn't do it.
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 16:55:26 GMT -5
Why is the promise of 'everlasting life' such a plus? I am more than willing to just die and that be the end of it. I can't imagine living forever in heaven. Now if we were born again and again, and got to learn and do stuff in an afterlife, then maybe eternity wouldn't be as bad, but singing, praising god and playing harps for ever and ever, really doesn't appeal to me at all. Maybe you could read a book instead? Now that I could do, but how long does it take to read a book. we are talking eternity here you know!
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 16:56:40 GMT -5
Why is the promise of 'everlasting life' such a plus? I am more than willing to just die and that be the end of it. I can't imagine living forever in heaven. Now if we were born again and again, and got to learn and do stuff in an afterlife, then maybe eternity wouldn't be as bad, but singing, praising god and playing harps for ever and ever, really doesn't appeal to me at all. There are a lot of things going to take place after we die and do in heaven... The believers will be judges the world, the fallen angels. Paul wrote in I Cor. 6:2-3 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels (fallen)?
Subduing/Reigning God's enemies with Jesus on the earth for 1000 yrs. John the apostle wrote in Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:1-5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”For myself, I want to enjoy what God has in stored for His children in this life and the next to come...Just what is it that God has supposedly stored for his children Nathan? Also, there is no way I would want to be a judge of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2015 17:42:54 GMT -5
Maybe you could read a book instead? Now that I could do, but how long does it take to read a book. we are talking eternity here you know! Maybe there is an unimaginably large library there? John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 18:21:48 GMT -5
Now that I could do, but how long does it take to read a book. we are talking eternity here you know! Maybe there is an unimaginably large library there? John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."Now you're talkin!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2015 19:02:01 GMT -5
There are a lot of things going to take place after we die and do in heaven... The believers will be judges the world, the fallen angels. Paul wrote in I Cor. 6:2-3 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels (fallen)?
Subduing/Reigning God's enemies with Jesus on the earth for 1000 yrs. John the apostle wrote in Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 21:1-5 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.” Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”For myself, I want to enjoy what God has in stored for His children in this life and the next to come... Just what is it that God has supposedly stored for his children Nathan? Also, there is no way I would want to be a judge of the world. One thing here...it says that the 12 Apostles and the prophets would judge the 12 tribes of Israel.....however, Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees and others whom heard him, that they were already judged by Moses' law.....that Jesus himself didn't have to judge them! Seems like something only the 12 tribes of Israel would understand perhaps? We still have to consider that Jesus has already gone into the depths of hell and preach his gospel of salvation to those who were captives there....we generally think of those who died before the Saviour came to the earth, but they had faith in that he would come some day....however, there is nothing that says that ONLY those recorded in the OT that believed that Jesus the Son of God coming to the earth to be mankind's Saviour would be those captives released. Since God and His only begotten Son are all powerful and nothing is impossible with God...there may well be those who are held captive or considered non-believers in the depths of the grave, but that those who have been released from that captivity may well give them the gospel story that Jesus had given them.....we don't really know...it would be a mighty slender chance of hope to take, but then we must not hinder the power of God.....Also we know that Judgment Day will cover mostly our "deeds" and what we are worthy of in relation to those. So it may well be that those who have made the external appearance of a godly life that which is their salvation and have done well by this, may be given the reward which they are expecting. I don't think so, but then again I'm limiting the power of God and as we've read recently more then once on TMB, we can in now wise know the mind of God! Then there will be those who believe in Jesus Christ unto the saving unto eternal life, however as Paul made the lesson plain, their deeds may well be destroyed or counted to be unworthy of any reward and their deeds will be burned as chaff in the fire...or as Paul so mentioned. I feel that it is according to what we know and what we do with what we know is what we will be judged upon.....hopefully we all know that Jesus Christ is our Saviour unto eternal life....the rest, of course, will be how answerable we are to our deeds! One thing for sure, we can in no way make God to be in debted to us but living a life of good deeds expecting God to give us the best of eternal life and/or rewards, now can we?
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Post by snow on Jan 2, 2015 19:23:04 GMT -5
Just what is it that God has supposedly stored for his children Nathan? Also, there is no way I would want to be a judge of the world. One thing here...it says that the 12 Apostles and the prophets would judge the 12 tribes of Israel.....however, Jesus told the scribes and Pharisees and others whom heard him, that they were already judged by Moses' law.....that Jesus himself didn't have to judge them! Seems like something only the 12 tribes of Israel would understand perhaps? We still have to consider that Jesus has already gone into the depths of hell and preach his gospel of salvation to those who were captives there....we generally think of those who died before the Saviour came to the earth, but they had faith in that he would come some day....however, there is nothing that says that ONLY those recorded in the OT that believed that Jesus the Son of God coming to the earth to be mankind's Saviour would be those captives released. Since God and His only begotten Son are all powerful and nothing is impossible with God...there may well be those who are held captive or considered non-believers in the depths of the grave, but that those who have been released from that captivity may well give them the gospel story that Jesus had given them.....we don't really know...it would be a mighty slender chance of hope to take, but then we must not hinder the power of God.....Also we know that Judgment Day will cover mostly our "deeds" and what we are worthy of in relation to those. So it may well be that those who have made the external appearance of a godly life that which is their salvation and have done well by this, may be given the reward which they are expecting. I don't think so, but then again I'm limiting the power of God and as we've read recently more then once on TMB, we can in now wise know the mind of God! Then there will be those who believe in Jesus Christ unto the saving unto eternal life, however as Paul made the lesson plain, their deeds may well be destroyed or counted to be unworthy of any reward and their deeds will be burned as chaff in the fire...or as Paul so mentioned. I feel that it is according to what we know and what we do with what we know is what we will be judged upon.....hopefully we all know that Jesus Christ is our Saviour unto eternal life....the rest, of course, will be how answerable we are to our deeds! One thing for sure, we can in no way make God to be in debted to us but living a life of good deeds expecting God to give us the best of eternal life and/or rewards, now can we? Well since I probably don't have any hope of ever getting into heaven it's all a moot point for me. I would never want to be a judge, especially if hellfire is the punishment they would receive. But thank you for helping me understand the perspective a little better from your pov
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 2, 2015 22:02:53 GMT -5
1) Just what is it that God has supposedly stored for his children Nathan? Jesus said in John 10: 10 "I come that you might have eternal/life and that you might have more abundantly." From My own experience I had many challenges, turmoil, heartaches, sorrows, since the time I made Jesus as my Savior. However, I am very glad God stands by me and guides me through the stormy sea of life. Jesus didn't promise a trouble free life but He stand by us and help us through pains, sorrows, joy in life. I got to know God better through many difficult experiences in life it shows that He cares and loves me. Jesus said we shall receive 100 folds, I have gained 100s and 1000s brothers and sisters in Christ and much more to enjoy after this earthly life is ended. 2) Also, there is no way I would want to be a judge of the world. This is God's doing... God gives this place to his own disciples as judges to those who are faithful in the places He has given while they lived on the earth. The Parable of 1 talent, 5 talents, and 10 talents are given responsibilities/rewards to rule over cities...Seems to me that the beatitudes show us what is awaiting those with those mentioned conditions....like Blessed are the poor in spirit for they shall inherit the kingdom of heaven! Supposedly the kingdom of heaven grants the poor in spirit all manner of riches, whether financial, mentally or intellectually we'll find out in the end of it all!
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