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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2014 19:20:09 GMT -5
What does the Bible say about scoffers in the last days? Those who will not hear sound doctrine? It's you and those like you are the scoffers in the last days, for saying the Christians who believe Jesus is Both God and Man are of the devils, Ram.Again back to my trying to get Ram to understand what the bible said about "the Word" and that the "Word" IS Jesus in the flesh. If we cannot take the bible for what it says and understand it then I suppose then we would be well crippled in a lot of things. However here's definite verses that declares Jesus as the Word". Rev. 19:13-16 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on 'his vesture' and on his thigh a name written; KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. I think it also helpful here to see that it speaks of "Almighty God" not as verified as only one Almighty God nor as more then one Almighty God but leaving it open so that we can see that the Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit are as one "Almighty God"...JMT
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2014 19:25:22 GMT -5
not to worry, emy, dresses are beautiful too, but dragging them like you mentioned, I am sure can be wearisome, and should not be a requirement.~!~!~~~ appreciate your input. Sad would be the day , when we all agreed on everything? I think most North Koreans would answer "politically" correct to most common questions asked of them, and it would appear they are in "unity" , but .....hmmmmmm Alvin As you say, if all were to have the same mind about everything, dull would be our world aye? And yes, the "unity" the Koreans perhaps have meted out of their life would that not be under some type of pressure that if they were put into the line of fire, they'd all fire at their agreed upon enemy? Made me remember that some families can fight like cats and dogs amongst themselves but you let someone outside of the family step into the equation and Katy better bar the door because it won't be long until the whole fighting family will be piled upon that one who doesn't belong in the family! Our extended family was kind of like that...I used to get so tired of hearing the yow-yow and often wondered where the real love was in all of that...but then let someone start in on one of us outside the family and that "someone" would be sorry they saw the light of day! lah! What a way to live, IMO!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2014 21:18:16 GMT -5
What does the Bible say about scoffers in the last days? Those who will not hear sound doctrine? It's you and those like you are the scoffers in the last days, for saying the Christians who believe Jesus is Both God and Man are of the devils, Ram.Putting devils within the same context with Jesus is something I wish we'd be very careful about. If you'll remember I showed all the verses that showed us what "profaning the Holy Spirit" meant! Remember when the scribes and Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils through Beelzebub? This was saying that Jesus had a demonic spirit within him...this was profaning the Holy Spirit for the bible tells us that Jesus had the Holy Spirit in "full measure". Whether Jesus is of the Trinity or not or whoever believes that, It will all come down to this and this fits in with saying that Jesus was a man and that was it UNTIL he died and went to heaven....folks he came down from heaven FIRST and then incarnated into human flesh asa fetus in Mary's womb. Now John 17 shows that Jesus was praying to his Father that the glory that Jesus had with the FAther BEFORE the world ever became, that Jesus had some type of divinity within him. Now we cannot say he lost that deity/divinity and regained that full upon returning to heaven. Jesus never lost his "Godness part" whatever you believe that to be or not to be....now In my opinion we have to realize that there are quite some closeness between the heavenly Father and Jesus in order that Jesus' being lifted up would work unto salvation for those who believe on him. Now this "believing on Jesus Christ" does include who we think he is before and after Mary birthed him, as well as his 3 and half years of ministry for our faith cannot be complete until we understand in full "who" Jesus Christ really is. AGAIN I wish to caution all of us to be very careful when we speak of Jesus in ways of saying he was less then divine or NOT the holy Son of God because we might just inadvertently commit some "profaning of the Holy Ghost"....since the Holy Ghost was who overshadowed Mary when the incarnation was done and also Jesus Christ was given a full measure of the Holy Spirit. Please, let's be extremely careful.
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Post by déjà vu on Dec 19, 2014 22:56:22 GMT -5
"the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine from hell"
senior workers recent message at gospel meeting
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Post by xna on Dec 19, 2014 23:34:33 GMT -5
"the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine from hell" senior workers recent message at gospel meeting You can find verses that say there is only one God. You can find verses that say there are more than one god. 1 God examples; Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. Deuteronomy 4:35 The LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else. Deuteronomy 4:39 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord. Deuteronomy 6:4 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me. Deuteronomy 32:39 The LORD, he is the God; the LORD, he is the God. 1 Kings 18:39 I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:10 I am the LORD, and there is none else ... There is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. Isaiah 44:8 I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me. Isaiah 45:5-6 There is no God else beside me ... There is none beside me. Isaiah 45:21 I am God, and there is none else: I am God, and there is none like me. Isaiah 46:9 The Lord our God is one Lord. Mark 12:29) There is one God; and there is none other but he. Mark 12:32 That they might know thee the only true God. John 17:3 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him. 1 Corinthians 8:6 ------------------------------- More than 1 God examples: And God said, let us make man in our image. Genesis 1:26 And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. Genesis 3:22 Let us go down, and there confound their language. Genesis 11:7 And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. Exodus 12:12 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? Exodus 15:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods. Exodus 18:11 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. Exodus 20:3-5 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. Exodus 22:20 Thou shalt not revile the gods. Exodus 22:28 Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. Exodus 23:13 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. Exodus 23:24 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Exodus 23:32 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. Exodus 34:14 Upon their gods also the LORD executed judgments. Numbers 33:4 What God is there in heaven or in earth, that can do according to thy works? Deuteronomy 3:24 Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Deuteronomy 5:7 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you.) Deuteronomy 6:14-15 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords. Deuteronomy 10:17 Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them. Deuteronomy 28:14 They served other gods. Joshua 24:2 Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. Joshua 24:14 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? Judges 11:24 Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. 1 Samuel 6:5 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. 1 Samuel 28:13 The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. 1 Chronicles 16:25 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods. Psalm 82:1 I have said, Ye are gods. Psalm 82:6 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord. Psalm 86:8 For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. Psalm 96:4 Worship him, all ye gods. Psalm 97:7 Our Lord is above all gods. Psalm 135:5 O give thanks unto the God of gods. Psalm 136:2 I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods. Jeremiah 1:16 The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. Jeremiah 10:11 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. Jeremiah 25:6 I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods. Jeremiah 46:25 The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth. Zephaniah 2:11 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? John 10:33-34 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
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Post by Lee on Dec 20, 2014 2:58:07 GMT -5
Right. Many things, many gods if you like, vie for our attention during our tenure in this world. Knowing the Creator of all of these and ordering our concerns around him, this is true religion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 4:15:14 GMT -5
You didn't answer my question. Please try again. I want you to use your own thinking from the Bible, not seek out writings from others that satisfy your comfort zone. Au contraire. You asked: " can you show me?" For you (and any other readers here) the doctrinal teachings as handed down - and as recorded in the Bible - that we are instructed to follow. One may do with them as he or she wishes. A comfort zone you say? Yes, it is much easier to disparage rather than acknowledge, hmmm? Since it's easily substantiated that the clauses of the Nicene Creed do indeed have scriptural place.St.Anne, I am sorry but you are avoiding being like the noble Bereans were.....searching out the scriptures with an honest heart to see if these things (those you are listening to) are so. Without this Spirit any of us is simply cannon fodder for the one who is the Great Deceiver!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 4:24:00 GMT -5
"the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine from hell" senior workers recent message at gospel meeting I have my axe to grind with the workers on a number of issues, but on this one they are certainly correct. The Trinity is a false God. It is the Devil's counterfeit which he has installed over Christendom. He desires the place of Christ as head of the church and has created his own God to get it! God put a human being over his church and has sat that human being down at his right hand side to rule over the universe. God similarly wants to do that with each and every one of us as joint-heirs with Christ. Jesus reigns as Mighty God by virtue of the position God has given him, but he is not God himself. That is his and our heavenly Father. On the other hand, the devil wishes to be exalted to the throne of God....making himself God......and has done so as far as Christendom is concerned, through exalting the human being status of Jesus into God himself, thus deceiving many into accepting his false God. People need to think, read, study, pray and to be sincere with it.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 4:51:34 GMT -5
There is supposed to be one Almighty God, but not only do some Christians have differing views, and name titles, so do other religeons, e.g. Muslims, Rastafarians- Allah, Jah, Jehovah etc. etc. True...however we often forget what Jesus himself spoke to his Apostles when he was speaking to them about the coming of the Comforter, etc.....Did he not speak also about that he and the Father are "one"? And we know that the Holy Spirit emanates out from the Father....so if there IS a Father who is God, and His only begotten Son who is also God, and the Holy Spirit who is also God....then we should also understand that there is ONLY one Almighty God, though He may be in three persons! Yes I agree. At times scriptures can be a little bit testing and challenging to the mind and to our understanding and our ability to easily grasp certain concepts. For example in Mark 10:18 in reply to the man who called Jesus "good," Jesus's response was: "why do you call me good, no one is good excepth God alone." Many folks use this reference to seek to prove that Jesus is not God. Ps. I think that the concept/doctrine of the "Trinity" baffles,( if that is the correct word to use here), many folks.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 9:51:07 GMT -5
True...however we often forget what Jesus himself spoke to his Apostles when he was speaking to them about the coming of the Comforter, etc.....Did he not speak also about that he and the Father are "one"? And we know that the Holy Spirit emanates out from the Father....so if there IS a Father who is God, and His only begotten Son who is also God, and the Holy Spirit who is also God....then we should also understand that there is ONLY one Almighty God, though He may be in three persons! Yes I agree. At times scriptures can be a little bit testing and challenging to the mind and to our understanding and our ability to easily grasp certain concepts. For example in Mark 10:18 in reply to the man who called Jesus "good," Jesus's response was: "why do you call me good, no one is good excepth God alone." Many folks use this reference to seek to prove that Jesus is not God. Ps. I think that the concept/doctrine of the "Trinity" baffles,( if that is the correct word to use here), many folks.[/font][/b] The reason that the Trinity baffles people is because it is false and confusing. The devil is the author of confusion, not God. We are told not to be led away from the simplicity of Jesus by the enticing (baffling) doctrines of men. By the Trinity's own compilers, trying to understand the Trinity will drive a person mad. Enough said! For those who "sincerely" wish to learn the truth about the Trinity and who God and Jesus really are, I recommend the below link and the youtubes this man has produced under "The Trinity Delusion." I have only very recently discovered this site and have only had time to look at a small number of articles and youtubes, but can see this man is right on the button. www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.htmlIt does not grieve me to say it, but there is something "workerish" about this man.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 20, 2014 11:12:51 GMT -5
True...however we often forget what Jesus himself spoke to his Apostles when he was speaking to them about the coming of the Comforter, etc.....Did he not speak also about that he and the Father are "one"? And we know that the Holy Spirit emanates out from the Father....so if there IS a Father who is God, and His only begotten Son who is also God, and the Holy Spirit who is also God....then we should also understand that there is ONLY one Almighty God, though He may be in three persons! Yes I agree. At times scriptures can be a little bit testing and challenging to the mind and to our understanding and our ability to easily grasp certain concepts. For example in Mark 10:18 in reply to the man who called Jesus "good," Jesus's response was: "why do you call me good, no one is good excepth God alone." Many folks use this reference to seek to prove that Jesus is not God. Ps. I think that the concept/doctrine of the "Trinity" baffles,( if that is the correct word to use here), many folks. I think you hit it on the head, Partaker! Baffles! Again we can see the wisdom of God that dwelt in Jesus, eh? Didn't he tell his Apostles that it was given only unto them to understand those secrets of heaven? Also didn't he thank the Father for revealing the hidden things of heaven to babes and not to those who were so wise in themselves? Again, many on TMB will remember my story as I, myself, struggled to understand that "Trinity doctrine" or concept.....it took some serious time on my knees with the Lord and I will tell you it didn't come right away.....Nathan and Stanne will tell you I was about as bad as Ram for arguing that concept to be unreasonable, etc....I do not remember though that I called it a doctrine of Satan or the devil....I try so very hard not to do such a thing because I don't want to find myself in those scribes and Pharisees shoes when they said that Jesus was casting out demons or devils by Beelzebub and then Jesus spoke to those there about the profaning of the Holy Spirit being an unforgiveable sins! I have too many sins to take on something like that.....of course, I'm sure some will say how in the world did they say Jesus had a devil or demon within? Just by saying that is how he was casting them out of someone else. Remember this, Jesus was given a "full measure" of the Holy Spirit and to say he had a demonic spirit within or he was operating through a demonic spirit was to profane the Holy Spirit for within Jesus a "full measure" of the Holy Spirit is to say that demons or devils would NOT find one iota of a space to dwell within Jesus! This is how he was able to be tempted in all points like we are and still not sin! That full measure of the Holy Spirit kept Jesus pure and divine so that the "sacrifice" upon that cruel cross was a non-blemished one....looking back at the rules for the Passover Lamb! So to call the Trinity doctrine or concept a satanic one is really taking on a chance of profaning the Holy Spirit. Just because some of us don't understand that concept, doesn't give us the right to cop out and label it a satanic one, IMO....I think we would be getting too close to profaning the Holy Spirit......for IF that concept IS true and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God...then look what we'd done when we'd say such a thing...yes, sirree! that would be profaning the Holy Spirit! Again, it is given unto babes to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven....and the thing of that is, we all can become babes in the kingdom of heaven...can we not? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is made up of little children! So in order to keep away from profanity of any part of God and in order to keep that child-like grace and attitude of always wanting to learn more about whom and what we love....we keep working at our child-like faith, etc...JMO!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 12:04:18 GMT -5
Yes I agree. At times scriptures can be a little bit testing and challenging to the mind and to our understanding and our ability to easily grasp certain concepts. For example in Mark 10:18 in reply to the man who called Jesus "good," Jesus's response was: "why do you call me good, no one is good excepth God alone." Many folks use this reference to seek to prove that Jesus is not God. Ps. I think that the concept/doctrine of the "Trinity" baffles,( if that is the correct word to use here), many folks. I think you hit it on the head, Partaker! Baffles! Again we can see the wisdom of God that dwelt in Jesus, eh? Didn't he tell his Apostles that it was given only unto them to understand those secrets of heaven? Also didn't he thank the Father for revealing the hidden things of heaven to babes and not to those who were so wise in themselves? Again, many on TMB will remember my story as I, myself, struggled to understand that "Trinity doctrine" or concept.....it took some serious time on my knees with the Lord and I will tell you it didn't come right away.....Nathan and Stanne will tell you I was about as bad as Ram for arguing that concept to be unreasonable, etc....I do not remember though that I called it a doctrine of Satan or the devil....I try so very hard not to do such a thing because I don't want to find myself in those scribes and Pharisees shoes when they said that Jesus was casting out demons or devils by Beelzebub and then Jesus spoke to those there about the profaning of the Holy Spirit being an unforgiveable sins! I have too many sins to take on something like that.....of course, I'm sure some will say how in the world did they say Jesus had a devil or demon within? Just by saying that is how he was casting them out of someone else. Remember this, Jesus was given a "full measure" of the Holy Spirit and to say he had a demonic spirit within or he was operating through a demonic spirit was to profane the Holy Spirit for within Jesus a "full measure" of the Holy Spirit is to say that demons or devils would NOT find one iota of a space to dwell within Jesus! This is how he was able to be tempted in all points like we are and still not sin! That full measure of the Holy Spirit kept Jesus pure and divine so that the "sacrifice" upon that cruel cross was a non-blemished one....looking back at the rules for the Passover Lamb! So to call the Trinity doctrine or concept a satanic one is really taking on a chance of profaning the Holy Spirit. Just because some of us don't understand that concept, doesn't give us the right to cop out and label it a satanic one, IMO....I think we would be getting too close to profaning the Holy Spirit......for IF that concept IS true and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God...then look what we'd done when we'd say such a thing...yes, sirree! that would be profaning the Holy Spirit! Again, it is given unto babes to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven....and the thing of that is, we all can become babes in the kingdom of heaven...can we not? Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is made up of little children! So in order to keep away from profanity of any part of God and in order to keep that child-like grace and attitude of always wanting to learn more about whom and what we love....we keep working at our child-like faith, etc...JMO! Yep, now you will understand why in some of my responses I am not able to give the most Definitive satisfactory answers because I regard and acknowledge that such knowledge is too wonderful for me, a mere mortal being, to fully comprehend and absorb, I am still learning as we know very little about Almighty God and the Holy scriptures. Furthermore, a lot of what we do know is distorted and manipulated in order to fit in with man's ideas/interpretations and man's belief systems. Who knows who is right and who is wrong? God knows, and He will do the revelations to those that genuinely seek- seek and ye shall find, in the fullness of time, no doubt. ps. I was just moved by the spirit to read Psm. 24:1 again: The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 12:17:42 GMT -5
The Shaz opined:
So to call the Trinity doctrine or concept a satanic one is really taking on a chance of profaning the Holy Spirit. Just because some of us don't understand that concept, doesn't give us the right to cop out and label it a satanic one, IMO....I think we would be getting too close to profaning the Holy Spirit......for IF that concept IS true and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God...then look what we'd done when we'd say such a thing...yes, sirree! that would be profaning the Holy Spirit!
Shaz, do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is of the Devil?
Have you thoroughly researched the origins and concept of the Trinity?
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Post by xna on Dec 20, 2014 12:32:22 GMT -5
For those who "sincerely" wish to learn the truth about the Trinity and who God and Jesus really are, I recommend the below link and the youtubes this man has produced under "The Trinity Delusion." I have only very recently discovered this site and have only had time to look at a small number of articles and youtubes, but can see this man is right on the button. www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.htmlIt does not grieve me to say it, but there is something "workerish" about this man. [/quote] ------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the link. He makes a good case for the position, and it does make more sense than 1+1+1=1. I never heard a christian say the things he does at 36:00 - ..., Atheist often talk about this when they point out what's the big deal for god / Jesus sacrifice. youtu.be/d6Fd3GHwDAwHe still need to make the case there is a god and not just stories of a god, however.
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Post by StAnne on Dec 20, 2014 13:07:24 GMT -5
St.Anne, I am sorry but you are avoiding being like the noble Bereans were.....searching out the scriptures with an honest heart to see if these things (those you are listening to) are so. Without this Spirit any of us is simply cannon fodder for the one who is the Great Deceiver! When you read the NT canon, which I presume you are including in 'searching out the scriptures ...', you seem to forget that Christ's teachings didn't exist in written form - and come to us from the same source you are suggesting I should avoid. Which also tell us (Church and NT writings) that the Church of the living God is the pillar and bulwark of truth. 1 Tim 3:15 “What provision did Christ make for handing on the Christian faith? Did he point us to the Scriptures alone? Or to some other source?” The truth is that Christ never mentioned the completed canon of Christian Scriptures.
www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/09/scripture-and-tradition/ And that's all. I'm officially again on posting break.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 13:28:40 GMT -5
St.Anne, I am sorry but you are avoiding being like the noble Bereans were.....searching out the scriptures with an honest heart to see if these things (those you are listening to) are so. Without this Spirit any of us is simply cannon fodder for the one who is the Great Deceiver! When you read the NT canon, which I presume you are including in 'searching out the scriptures ...', you seem to forget that Christ's teachings didn't exist in written form - and come to us from the same source you are suggesting I should avoid. Which also tell us (Church and NT writings) that the Church of the living God is the pillar and bulwark of truth. 1 Tim 3:15 “What provision did Christ make for handing on the Christian faith? Did he point us to the Scriptures alone? Or to some other source?” The truth is that Christ never mentioned the completed canon of Christian Scriptures.
www.calledtocommunion.com/2014/09/scripture-and-tradition/ And that's all. I'm officially again on posting break. Okay I won't bother responding St Anne. Enjoy your break.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2014 13:31:50 GMT -5
For those who "sincerely" wish to learn the truth about the Trinity and who God and Jesus really are, I recommend the below link and the youtubes this man has produced under "The Trinity Delusion." I have only very recently discovered this site and have only had time to look at a small number of articles and youtubes, but can see this man is right on the button. www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.htmlIt does not grieve me to say it, but there is something "workerish" about this man. ------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the link. He makes a good case for the position, and it does make more sense than 1+1+1=1. I never heard a christian say the things he does at 36:00 - ..., Atheist often talk about this when they point out what's the big deal for god / Jesus sacrifice. youtu.be/d6Fd3GHwDAwHe still need to make the case there is a god and not just stories of a god, however. [/quote] Thanks xna. This guy's purpose is not to convince people that there is a God. He is addressing the false God of the Trinity. Atheists and satisfied Trinitarians should not watch the link you provided. However, those who wish to seek the only true God would do well to start with the link you mention and move on to his more specific videos on the subject.
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Post by Lee on Dec 20, 2014 23:42:29 GMT -5
"the doctrine of the trinity is a doctrine from hell" senior workers recent message at gospel meeting I have my axe to grind with the workers on a number of issues, but on this one they are certainly correct. The Trinity is a false God. It is the Devil's counterfeit which he has installed over Christendom. He desires the place of Christ as head of the church and has created his own God to get it! God put a human being over his church and has sat that human being down at his right hand side to rule over the universe. God similarly wants to do that with each and every one of us as joint-heirs with Christ. Jesus reigns as Mighty God by virtue of the position God has given him, but he is not God himself. That is his and our heavenly Father. On the other hand, the devil wishes to be exalted to the throne of God....making himself God......and has done so as far as Christendom is concerned, through exalting the human being status of Jesus into God himself, thus deceiving many into accepting his false God. People need to think, read, study, pray and to be sincere with it. So the head of Christ's body, the second Adam, and the Agent of redemption is a man? The theological revelation of JC was qualitative, not quantitative. Your view proposes a pluralism of Gods. Islam thinks so, and as you're defining JC they would be correct.
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 21, 2014 2:35:27 GMT -5
"The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other yet identical in essence."
People argue volumes about whether this is true or not!
The arguments for & against whether it is true or not are nothing more than poots in a whirlwind!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 4:40:15 GMT -5
I have my axe to grind with the workers on a number of issues, but on this one they are certainly correct. The Trinity is a false God. It is the Devil's counterfeit which he has installed over Christendom. He desires the place of Christ as head of the church and has created his own God to get it! God put a human being over his church and has sat that human being down at his right hand side to rule over the universe. God similarly wants to do that with each and every one of us as joint-heirs with Christ. Jesus reigns as Mighty God by virtue of the position God has given him, but he is not God himself. That is his and our heavenly Father. On the other hand, the devil wishes to be exalted to the throne of God....making himself God......and has done so as far as Christendom is concerned, through exalting the human being status of Jesus into God himself, thus deceiving many into accepting his false God. People need to think, read, study, pray and to be sincere with it. So the head of Christ's body, the second Adam, and the Agent of redemption is a man? The theological revelation of JC was qualitative, not quantitative. Your view proposes a pluralism of Gods. Islam thinks so, and as you're defining JC they would be correct. That's what I have been saying all along, Lee. Jesus was just a man. A human being in whom the fullness of God the Father dwelt by the outpouring of his Spirit. Think it not strange that Moslem scholars and even atheists can understand the Holy Bible far better than Trinitarians. quite simply because they are inclined to read the book in context, not reading pre-conceived ideas into the book. Footnote: about the Trinity. The supposedly three distinct persons are regarded as being co-equal and co-eternal, but forming the one God. A mystery to try and understand and one which it is attested to by those who promoted it, will drive you mad if you do try to understand it, yet believing in it is essential for salvation.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2014 11:39:33 GMT -5
The Shaz opined:
So to call the Trinity doctrine or concept a satanic one is really taking on a chance of profaning the Holy Spirit. Just because some of us don't understand that concept, doesn't give us the right to cop out and label it a satanic one, IMO....I think we would be getting too close to profaning the Holy Spirit......for IF that concept IS true and Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God...then look what we'd done when we'd say such a thing...yes, sirree! that would be profaning the Holy Spirit!
Shaz, do you believe the Roman Catholic Church is of the Devil? Have you thoroughly researched the origins and concept of the Trinity? Ram, as far an any of the churches that are in the world of today, I question some things about any of them....but as time reveals those things that disturb any of us about them are human things that have been added to the basic Lord-given revelations. It is my understanding that ALL churches have just about made themselves become what they are by taking only portions of scripture and making that their tenets of faith and losing out on others. Thus said, some of the older established church have admittedly reached back and added more of Understanding throughout their establishment years. Though it looks as if the 2x2s have actually gone the other direction and narrowed their tenets of faith down to 2 scriptures or their interpretations of those 2 scriptures and that being as we understand it from LS' email to BM "the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home"! There is nothing wrong with either one, but to make them the basis of one's faith is doing something very disturbing and that is leaving out our God and Saviour....oh yes, they will say that Jesus is included because he was the one who established the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home. Leaving grounds wide open for others to declare that isn't all that Jesus established preaching on the shores of the sea while he stood in a boat just off from the shore, etc First off, I have no intentions at present to join with the RCC, but I am not going to diss them since my perception of their religiosity is most likely as skewed as it is for any other church except for the 2 churches that I have personally witnessed myself! HOWEVER, I will say this much...the Catholic church is the one who has put out our bibles, so I'd have to say they really know what they interpreted from either the scrolls and word-of-mouth and their own take on things, so to call them wrong in their thinking on any scriptures puts me in bad light because I fail to understand that "Yes, by all means, they would know more about what the written scriptures are supposed to be saying, since they were the ones who transcribed it all for us humble peons out here in la-la land!" So NO, they are not of the devil....can the devil have anything to do with them? I would have to opine that it would be an individual matter when it comes with the devil and his relationship with anybody these days...for simply he was cast out of heaven and can no longer be the accuser of the brethren......but he can be one to deal with us one on one and cause us to doubt and make us want to call those we don't understand part of him. Again this is exactly what the Pharisees and scribes did to Jesus if you will remember...they did not understand Jesus and plus they were quite threatened by him, so they decided to say that because they didn't understand how he did what he did and where he got that power, they were going to scatter the word that he was of Beelzebub, who as you should remember, is a demon.....well as you should have interpreted correctly according to Jesus' speaking that immediately after that incident Jesus brought up what sins are forgiveable and what "sin" is not forgiveable. The unforgiveable sin is profaning the Holy Spirit and as Jesus had a full measure of the Holy Spirit and would not have had room even for any other spirit, the Pharisees and scribes that accused Jesus of having a demonic spirit were found guilty of profaning the Holy Spirit. So I'm saying this, we can never be careful enough when we speak about the spiritual realm of things, in accusing whomever or whatever to be of the devil. If we feel that within ourselves, then we pray about such and then we just avoid that Until it is revealed to us differently....OKAY? As to checking the Trinity concept out? RAM, I spent nearly 4 years studying ONLY about Jesus Christ...at the near end of 3 years of such study, is when I began to "notice" the Trinity concept in others speaking, writing. I, at first could no sooner understand it then that slug outside my front door doesn't seem to understand it is cold weather and he's going to freeze his caboose! So in my not understanding, I was somewhat like you, I put up argument after argument about what was being said. Mostly from the point that it wasn't making much sense to me. Well, my thoughts were being shot down here and there, not as much from the people who were telling these things but by the scriptures that they listed. This troubled me greatly. Ram, I begin to see that Jesus Christ is so much bigger then any human that ever walked the earth....I prayed consistently night and morning and sometimes in between to God that "If He saw that it was to my eternal salvation for me to understand the Trinity, would HE please reveal it to me." I read and reread scriptures that others said point to that truth....I looked things up otherwise, It got to where I could no longer prove any argument from my point of view....then one night, just about the time I was about to repeat to God to please reveal this to me....it fell into my understanding like flipping on a light switch! Of course, that wasn't a complete understanding, but it was an understanding that showed me just how great is my God and Saviour....and yes, I'm calling Jesus Christ "my God and Saviour" just as Mary and Paul and others did! Jesus has become so ultimately precious to me because of this concept....fact is, we are taught to lay our treasure up in heaven where moth nor rust nor thief can harm the treasure. Well, Hello! What or who is my treasure in heaven NOW? You bet! Jesus Christ is my treasure in heaven! There can be no greater one, can there? Certainly moth nor rust nor thief nor judge can harm him any more! So I can't tell you what to do in you fight against the trinity doctrine or as I call it as it is still just a human expression to describe the concept....pray and pray consistently and whole heartedly! Be willing to change your mind if it should ever be your portion to see the concept in God's pure light! IT IS not a doctrine of the devil, as the devil's doctrine has always been about accusing the brethren, not the worshipping of God's only begotten Son! Why it is a problem for anyone that believes that Jesus' death on the cross brings them salvation to believe that Jesus was more then a man while on earth is beyond me....at least in that I knew better! InPsalms it says plainly that "man cannot redeem his brother". IF this is so, then Jesus has to be something more then man, something more then earthly man.....in order that his crucifixion stands for all repentant souls.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2014 11:47:34 GMT -5
So the head of Christ's body, the second Adam, and the Agent of redemption is a man? The theological revelation of JC was qualitative, not quantitative. Your view proposes a pluralism of Gods. Islam thinks so, and as you're defining JC they would be correct. That's what I have been saying all along, Lee. Jesus was just a man. A human being in whom the fullness of God the Father dwelt by the outpouring of his Spirit. Think it not strange that Moslem scholars and even atheists can understand the Holy Bible far better than Trinitarians. quite simply because they are inclined to read the book in context, not reading pre-conceived ideas into the book. Footnote: about the Trinity. The supposedly three distinct persons are regarded as being co-equal and co-eternal, but forming the one God. A mystery to try and understand and one which it is attested to by those who promoted it, will drive you mad if you do try to understand it, yet believing in it is essential for salvation. Ram, you're not either not reading or not taking in all that it speaks in relation to salvation in the bible. In Psalms it definitely says that "MAN cannot redeem his brother"! So Jesus cannot be just a "man", for his death on the cross would be no more meaningful then the thieves on either side of him...MAN cannot redeem MAN! The creator had to die for his creature! Only the begotten Son of God could redeem us. The full measure of the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus when he was incarmated as a fetus in Mary's womb! He became the Son of God and the Son of man at the same time.....you've been reading so much on the religions that believe Jesus wasn't much more then a prophet, if that and I believe that might be more of something we all should be careful of then not. As far as the Moslem scholars and atheists understanding the Holy Bible.....I don't think they read much of the Holy Bible....they have their own bible and they would believe it to be of the devil should they even put their hands on the Holy Bible...come on folks! AGAIN why anyone would believe "just a man could redeem another man" is dreaming......it is evident that it cannot and does not happen! So either you don't believe the Holy Bible and Jesus Christ our Saviour and are an atheist OR you are a Christian and believe it. "Man cannot redeem his brother"!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 21, 2014 11:55:43 GMT -5
For those who "sincerely" wish to learn the truth about the Trinity and who God and Jesus really are, I recommend the below link and the youtubes this man has produced under "The Trinity Delusion." I have only very recently discovered this site and have only had time to look at a small number of articles and youtubes, but can see this man is right on the button. www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.htmlIt does not grieve me to say it, but there is something "workerish" about this man. ------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the link. He makes a good case for the position, and it does make more sense than 1+1+1=1. I never heard a christian say the things he does at 36:00 - ..., Atheist often talk about this when they point out what's the big deal for god / Jesus sacrifice. youtu.be/d6Fd3GHwDAwHe still need to make the case there is a god and not just stories of a god, however. Thanks xna. This guy's purpose is not to convince people that there is a God. He is addressing the false God of the Trinity. Atheists and satisfied Trinitarians should not watch the link you provided. However, those who wish to seek the only true God would do well to start with the link you mention and move on to his more specific videos on the subject. [/quote] Ram, I don't know when you became a Moslemist, Islamist, etc and that's alright...but though I've answered your questions on post above...I will NO longer discuss with you anything regarding the Holy Bible.....Moslems nor Islamists do not respect the Holy Bible, for it is known it was scribed into understandable language by the RCC many centuries ago...and thus they wouldn't believe it and of course, they'd believe not only the RCC are of the devil but any Christian churches are of the devil. It would have been nice IF you'd mentioned from the beginning of your discussion that your leanings toward the Moslem faiths/beliefs were what lent you your interpretations though you should admit you've not held all things even in the bible together that state without question things that defy what you've mention, i.e. Jesus being the Word......I gave you that in Revelations....also about man being able to save another man unto eternal life...it cannot be done. that is in Psalms where it states without question "Man cannot redeem his brother." Yes, you have a right to argue your belief but it would have been very nice if you'd said why you're writing such things because as I read them it read much like some workers chant that didn't really know anything either.......so I engaged to help you learn differently...but you're not wanting to learn differently....this will, hopefully, be my last engagement with you on Christian or Trinity subjects!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 12:57:35 GMT -5
Thanks for the three long posts Shaz. I don't have time to fully consider them at the moment, but you are taking the wrong interpretation out of Psalm 49. Here it is, the full Psalm, not just a "line" extracted from it.
Psalm 49
1 Hear this, all ye people; give ear, all ye inhabitants of the world:
2 Both low and high, rich and poor, together.
3 My mouth shall speak of wisdom; and the meditation of my heart shall be of understanding.
4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying upon the harp.
5 Wherefore should I fear in the days of evil, when the iniquity of my heels shall compass me about?
6 They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
8 (For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever:)
9 That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.
10 For he seeth that wise men die, likewise the fool and the brutish person perish, and leave their wealth to others.
11 Their inward thought is, that their houses shall continue for ever, and their dwelling places to all generations; they call their lands after their own names.
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
13 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
16 Be not thou afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased;
17 For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
18 Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise thee, when thou doest well to thyself.
19 He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.
20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
The portion that you are referring to relates to those who trust in their wealth and riches. They cannot "share their riches" in order to redeem their souls. God alone redeems our souls by providing the perfect and innocent sacrifice of his only begotten (human being) Son. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
No man could provide a perfect human being sacrifice so God provided one himself. This human being sacrifice redeems us from our sins, but we also have to provide the "dying daily" sacrifice (as the human being Jesus also did) that we can be acceptable to God.
edited to add the following. Sinless man did not need redemption. Man without sin is acceptable to God. It is because man fell away from God that redemption by a sinless sacrifice was necessary.
Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Verse 14 immediately above makes it clear that Adam was the figure of the Christ to come. On this occasion the Workers are right. We just need to get used to it! The following verse (15) makes it abundantly clear that the grace of God comes to us through "one man" (not God, God the Son or whatever) Jesus Christ!
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Post by Lee on Dec 21, 2014 23:02:05 GMT -5
Uh .... so Christians worship a man?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 3:14:19 GMT -5
Uh .... so Christians worship a man? True Christians worship God the Father "through" the human being Son of God, Jesus Christ. Go have a swerve over to the "I AM" thread for some informative videos. You do realise that in Heaven the angels will be worshiping "human beings?"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 5:44:30 GMT -5
It is written that God is not the author of confusion, but reading through this thread, man's various interpretations has certainly caused a lot of confusion in the minds of educated as well as simple folks. The confusion of mind is in trying to decipher who is on the right track and who is on the wrong track. Little wonder that some folks have given up all together because they are no longer sure of who or what to believe; they no longer know "their anuses From their elbows." So to crudely speak .
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Post by xna on Dec 22, 2014 8:54:57 GMT -5
It is written that God is not the author of confusion, but reading through this thread, man's various interpretations has certainly caused a lot of confusion in the minds of educated as well as simple folks. The confusion of mind is in trying to decipher who is on the right track and who is on the wrong track. Little wonder that some folks have given up all together because they are no longer sure of who or what to believe; they no longer know "their anuses From their elbows." So to crudely speak . ~ partaker ref: 1 Corinthians 14: 33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Note: In that same chapter there are two topics that have created great confusion in Christendom. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law
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