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Post by slowtosee on Dec 22, 2014 10:53:59 GMT -5
Genre, context, culture, time in History etc etc etc. Easy to come to any number of conclusions seen through our 20 thcentury eyes. Alvin
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Post by xna on Dec 22, 2014 13:11:40 GMT -5
~ Nathan I have an understanding of the 2x2 position on; women and prophecy. My point is other sects sincerely have different interpretations from those same verses and see their interpretation as the one “true” interpretation. If this was important to god today you think she would clear it up the confusion for the many believers. Women – 388 verses citationsProphecy – 235 verse citations
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Post by xna on Dec 22, 2014 13:52:41 GMT -5
~ Nathan I have an understanding of the 2x2 position on; women and prophecy. My point is other sects sincerely have different interpretations from those same verses and see their interpretation as the one “true” interpretation. If this was important to god today you think she would clear it up the confusion for the many believers. Women – 388 verses citationsProphecy – 235 verse citations To truly understand I Cor. 14 women keep silence in the church... a person has to understand how the New Testament operates in the 1st century church and the problems they were having in this church. When people ignore the problems, culture of the time then these verses can bring a lot misinterpretation and confusion.
Jesus, Paul and the apostles gospel brings equality to men and women when it comes to worship God in Spirit and in truth in the midst of a man's world, where women were second class, and they have no equality, or rights in public speaking.
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. .... Some say you need to read and understand the original language, from the original manuscript, use the correct codex, appreciated the cultural context of the time, or you will be confused, etc. To me those kind of claims contradict verses that a child could enter the kingdom, and are often promoted by those who want to control others.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 13:59:31 GMT -5
To truly understand I Cor. 14 women keep silence in the church... a person has to understand how the New Testament operates in the 1st century church and the problems they were having in this church. When people ignore the problems, culture of the time then these verses can bring a lot misinterpretation and confusion.
Jesus, Paul and the apostles gospel brings equality to men and women when it comes to worship God in Spirit and in truth in the midst of a man's world, where women were second class, and they have no equality, or rights in public speaking.
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. .... Some say you need to read and understand the original language, from the original manuscript, use the correct codex, appreciated the cultural context of the time, or you will be confused, etc. To me those kind of claims contradict verses that a child could enter the kingdom, and are often promoted by those who want to control others. 2 Corinthians 11:3 "But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ."
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Post by snow on Dec 22, 2014 17:25:12 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. .... Some say you need to read and understand the original language, from the original manuscript, use the correct codex, appreciated the cultural context of the time, or you will be confused, etc. To me those kind of claims contradict verses that a child could enter the kingdom, and are often promoted by those who want to control others. In the OLD world women, slaves had NO rights... Look in the Muslims world today... most women have little rights. Veils over their faces, can't drive, can't vote, have no place in politics, etc.
The 2x2s need NOT to be the first or the last to change with fashion, culture, etc... the best thing is to be in the middle with changes taken place in the world. We don't want to be to change too soon/early then people will brand us as worldly Christians or too slow in changes then we will be branded as the Amish too backwards with the changes.
Wrong is wrong no matter what year it is committed. That's the point. Don't you think an all loving, all knowing God would have figured this out from the beginning?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 20:29:14 GMT -5
To truly understand I Cor. 14 women keep silence in the church... a person has to understand how the New Testament operates in the 1st century church and the problems they were having in this church. When people ignore the problems, culture of the time then these verses can bring a lot misinterpretation and confusion.
Jesus, Paul and the apostles gospel brings equality to men and women when it comes to worship God in Spirit and in truth in the midst of a man's world, where women were second class, and they have no equality, or rights in public speaking.
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right
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Post by xna on Dec 22, 2014 20:48:39 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right For man; I agree he has changed his mind on what is morally acceptable. I see mankind as becoming more moral in recent times. I understand many Christians hold the opposite view, as it fits with the end times prophecy. For God; Are moral acts willed by God because they are good, or are they good because they are willed by God? Does God change his mind on what is good and what is evil? www.amazon.com/The-Better-Angels-Our-Nature/dp/1491518243
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 22, 2014 20:50:21 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right NO, Wally, something is either right or wrong.
It is only how people view it at the time, but that doesn't change whether something Is right or wrong.
I thought it was usually Christians that claim there are "absolutes" and it is we unbelievers who are guilty of RELATIVISM?
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Post by xna on Dec 22, 2014 21:14:06 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right It hard to make a case where biblicaly supported acts such as: discrimination, slavery & cruelty are NOT always wrong. I have come to believe however some lessor acts are situational. For example, when I was in the 2x2 I saw lying as always wrong, but there are situations where lying is the more moral thing to do i.e. During WWW II if you were hiding Jews in your house how would you answer; Where are you hiding the Jews? Here lying is the more moral act.
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Post by Lee on Dec 22, 2014 21:51:23 GMT -5
Uh .... so Christians worship a man? True Christians worship God the Father "through" the human being Son of God, Jesus Christ. Go have a swerve over to the "I AM" thread for some informative videos. You do realise that in Heaven the angels will be worshiping "human beings?" I was aware we would judge angels. I guess anything's possible when you begin with a premise that Jesus was just a man.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2014 22:12:06 GMT -5
thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right NO, Wally, something is either right or wrong.
It is only how people view it at the time, but that doesn't change whether something Is right or wrong.
I thought it was usually Christians that claim there are "absolutes" and it is we unbelievers who are guilty of RELATIVISM?
when it comes to mans law it changes all the time
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2014 23:14:55 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right I was thinking this the other day.....in accordance to population are there really more homosexuals now then 50 years ago, 100 years ago? Or is it because it isn't really something that gets the homosexuals into some mighty horrible fixes by the straight folks? That the openness is an encouragement for the young folks as well as the past wanting children aged folk to try their hand at being homosexual?
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Post by dmmichgood on Dec 23, 2014 0:09:05 GMT -5
thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right 1) I was thinking this the other day.....in accordance to population are there really more homosexuals now then 50 years ago, 100 years ago? 2) Or is it because it isn't really something that gets the homosexuals into some mighty horrible fixes by the straight folks? 3) That the openness is an encouragement for the young folks as well as the past wanting children aged folk to try their hand at being homosexual? 1) Probably not "more homosexuals now then 50 years ago, 100 years ago." It is just that they are somewhat more safe in being "out" 2) As I said, they may feel somewhat more safe from "horrible fixes" (very horrible fixes) from many people. 3) You are joking! Right?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 3:38:02 GMT -5
True Christians worship God the Father "through" the human being Son of God, Jesus Christ. Go have a swerve over to the "I AM" thread for some informative videos. You do realise that in Heaven the angels will be worshiping "human beings?" I was aware we would judge angels. I guess anything's possible when you begin with a premise that Jesus was just a man. You are right Lee. Even salvation is possible!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 3:48:55 GMT -5
Can just a man take on the sins of the world - so to speak? One man did. God raised up a perfect man to do just that. He was the only one who could redeem us through his perfect, sinless nature. Through one man's disobedience sin entered the World and through one man's obedience it was made possible for man to be redeemed. Remember, had man not sinned in the beginning, there would have been no need for redemption. Man's sinless state was to be God's standard. Redemption had to come through the second Adam. The devil has pulled the wool over the eyes of Christendom by deceiving them to believe that God himself was placed on the cross. Sounds good. Very appealing. Even sounds wise. Rewind to the Garden of Eden. Just the same old tactics. It is all designed to corrupt our view of God's plan of salvation. It obscures the reality of what Jesus did for us, not just in death, but also in life. All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure. Remember the redemption plan is God's plan, not ours! He decides what he wants. He decided whether or not a perfect human being was not only necessary but ample to take away the sins of the world. Christendom focuses so much on the death sacrifice of Jesus they overlook the daily "living sacrifice" which is our example to follow. The sacrifice on the cross was to take away our sins, without which we could never be acceptable to God, no matter how good we are otherwise, due to the sin in us. Jesus took care of that on the cross. For most of Christendom that is where it ends, but in fact that is the beginning of salvation. When we accept Jesus into our lives, his sacrifice on the cross atones for our sins. That's his part. After that it is our part to follow him by "dying daily" to let the Holy Spirit have control of our lives. We have the "living sacrifice" to do. Much of Christendom overlooks this. Salvation is a two sacrifice process. They usually only see one. If God himself came to the Earth and lived and died for us, it would make following Jesus's living sacrifice of dying daily to serve God, something impossible. How can a man follow God in his deeds and works, even without the miracles? This is the lie of the devil. He tells us we are not God and therefore cannot attain the standards of Christ(supposedly God). If you look into this and really think about it, it is really a very effective strategy of the devil and it has massive effects throughout Christendom.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 4:32:52 GMT -5
So who was it that said; if anyone says they have not sinned they are a liar? SO if Jesus was just a man and he claimed to have not sinned then is he a liar - or is it that people say he did not sin? If Jesus did not sin he cannot be just a man. Only God cannot sin. Here it is in 1 John 1 Mary. Note the "context!" 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.It is true that God cannot sin. The Bible does NOT say that "only" God cannot sin. Man was sinless until he sinned. Jesus remained sinless. The only one to do so and the only one who could redeem us from our sins.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 5:42:26 GMT -5
If discrimination is wrong now, it was wrong then. If slavery is wrong now, it was wrong then. If cruelty and violence is wrong now, it was wrong then. thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right That is true, but consideration must be given to what is spiritually right and wrong and what is legally right and wrong. Very often what may be regarded to be spiritually right may be legally wrong because of a change of law which validates it and makes it legally right.
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Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2014 9:06:33 GMT -5
I was aware we would judge angels. I guess anything's possible when you begin with a premise that Jesus was just a man. You are right Lee. Even salvation is possible! But you said angels will worship humans in the future. How is that eschatological progress?
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Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2014 9:25:34 GMT -5
Can just a man take on the sins of the world - so to speak? One man did. God raised up a perfect man to do just that. He was the only one who could redeem us through his perfect, sinless nature. Through one man's disobedience sin entered the World and through one man's obedience it was made possible for man to be redeemed. Remember, had man not sinned in the beginning, there would have been no need for redemption. Man's sinless state was to be God's standard. Redemption had to come through the second Adam. The devil has pulled the wool over the eyes of Christendom by deceiving them to believe that God himself was placed on the cross. Sounds good. Very appealing. Even sounds wise. Rewind to the Garden of Eden. Just the same old tactics. It is all designed to corrupt our view of God's plan of salvation. It obscures the reality of what Jesus did for us, not just in death, but also in life. All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure. Remember the redemption plan is God's plan, not ours! He decides what he wants. He decided whether or not a perfect human being was not only necessary but ample to take away the sins of the world. Christendom focuses so much on the death sacrifice of Jesus they overlook the daily "living sacrifice" which is our example to follow. The sacrifice on the cross was to take away our sins, without which we could never be acceptable to God, no matter how good we are otherwise, due to the sin in us. Jesus took care of that on the cross. For most of Christendom that is where it ends, but in fact that is the beginning of salvation. When we accept Jesus into our lives, his sacrifice on the cross atones for our sins. That's his part. After that it is our part to follow him by "dying daily" to let the Holy Spirit have control of our lives. We have the "living sacrifice" to do. Much of Christendom overlooks this. Salvation is a two sacrifice process. They usually only see one. If God himself came to the Earth and lived and died for us, it would make following Jesus's living sacrifice of dying daily to serve God, something impossible. How can a man follow God in his deeds and works, even without the miracles? This is the lie of the devil. He tells us we are not God and therefore cannot attain the standards of Christ(supposedly God). If you look into this and really think about it, it is really a very effective strategy of the devil and it has massive effects throughout Christendom. Are you saying that we are God then?
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Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2014 9:34:15 GMT -5
"All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure."
But Jesus was an integrated personality. If God works through a person perfectly as he did Christ, the man's personality would not be bifurcated, hyphenated, or hijacked. Are you saying his personality knows an equal in history or to come?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:28:35 GMT -5
One man did. God raised up a perfect man to do just that. He was the only one who could redeem us through his perfect, sinless nature. Through one man's disobedience sin entered the World and through one man's obedience it was made possible for man to be redeemed. Remember, had man not sinned in the beginning, there would have been no need for redemption. Man's sinless state was to be God's standard. Redemption had to come through the second Adam. The devil has pulled the wool over the eyes of Christendom by deceiving them to believe that God himself was placed on the cross. Sounds good. Very appealing. Even sounds wise. Rewind to the Garden of Eden. Just the same old tactics. It is all designed to corrupt our view of God's plan of salvation. It obscures the reality of what Jesus did for us, not just in death, but also in life. All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure. Remember the redemption plan is God's plan, not ours! He decides what he wants. He decided whether or not a perfect human being was not only necessary but ample to take away the sins of the world. Christendom focuses so much on the death sacrifice of Jesus they overlook the daily "living sacrifice" which is our example to follow. The sacrifice on the cross was to take away our sins, without which we could never be acceptable to God, no matter how good we are otherwise, due to the sin in us. Jesus took care of that on the cross. For most of Christendom that is where it ends, but in fact that is the beginning of salvation. When we accept Jesus into our lives, his sacrifice on the cross atones for our sins. That's his part. After that it is our part to follow him by "dying daily" to let the Holy Spirit have control of our lives. We have the "living sacrifice" to do. Much of Christendom overlooks this. Salvation is a two sacrifice process. They usually only see one. If God himself came to the Earth and lived and died for us, it would make following Jesus's living sacrifice of dying daily to serve God, something impossible. How can a man follow God in his deeds and works, even without the miracles? This is the lie of the devil. He tells us we are not God and therefore cannot attain the standards of Christ(supposedly God). If you look into this and really think about it, it is really a very effective strategy of the devil and it has massive effects throughout Christendom. Are you saying that we are God then? Perhaps not in the sense you have in mind? However, contextually we are indeed God. That is the whole purpose of God's plan, that his Spirit would abide in us and guide and control us. Not our will, but his will be done. Jesus prayed that we would be one with each other and with him and the Father, as he and the Father are one. If we are all one and of God, then contextually we are God.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:32:00 GMT -5
"All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure." But Jesus was an integrated personality. If God works through a person perfectly as he did Christ, the man's personality would not be bifurcated, hyphenated, or hijacked. Are you saying his personality knows an equal in history or to come? His personality equaled Adam's until Adam rebelled. Jesus told the naughty one at his time of temptation.."man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Adam and Eve did this until the naughty one (actually he was a very naughty one) beguiled them into disobeying God. That's why you and I were born with a naughty nature.
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Post by xna on Dec 23, 2014 12:31:34 GMT -5
thats not what history teaches us right and wrong can change with humans and countries and times...example it was once wrong to engage in homosexual behavior now its accepted and even encouraged to be right I was thinking this the other day.....in accordance to population are there really more homosexuals now then 50 years ago, 100 years ago? Or is it because it isn't really something that gets the homosexuals into some mighty horrible fixes by the straight folks? That the openness is an encouragement for the young folks as well as the past wanting children aged folk to try their hand at being homosexual? (At least the Mormons talk about it.)
"You’ll probably have a gay companion; Before you say eww, try to understand the position he’s in. By deciding to be a Mormon and go on a mission he’s giving up his chance at a loving relationship with someone he’s physically attracted to… forever! You, on the other hand, get to enjoy sex one day. Not only that, but he has to completely hide the fact that he’s gay. Any hint of homosexuality and he’ll be completely ostracized by other missionaries. His mission and life in the church is going to be a whole lot tougher than yours so if you know of a gay missionary, instead of telling people and harassing him, try to be understanding." futuremissionary.com/10-things-every-pre-missionary-should-know/
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Post by snow on Dec 23, 2014 14:19:21 GMT -5
One man did. God raised up a perfect man to do just that. He was the only one who could redeem us through his perfect, sinless nature. Through one man's disobedience sin entered the World and through one man's obedience it was made possible for man to be redeemed. Remember, had man not sinned in the beginning, there would have been no need for redemption. Man's sinless state was to be God's standard. Redemption had to come through the second Adam. The devil has pulled the wool over the eyes of Christendom by deceiving them to believe that God himself was placed on the cross. Sounds good. Very appealing. Even sounds wise. Rewind to the Garden of Eden. Just the same old tactics. It is all designed to corrupt our view of God's plan of salvation. It obscures the reality of what Jesus did for us, not just in death, but also in life. All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure. Remember the redemption plan is God's plan, not ours! He decides what he wants. He decided whether or not a perfect human being was not only necessary but ample to take away the sins of the world. Christendom focuses so much on the death sacrifice of Jesus they overlook the daily "living sacrifice" which is our example to follow. The sacrifice on the cross was to take away our sins, without which we could never be acceptable to God, no matter how good we are otherwise, due to the sin in us. Jesus took care of that on the cross. For most of Christendom that is where it ends, but in fact that is the beginning of salvation. When we accept Jesus into our lives, his sacrifice on the cross atones for our sins. That's his part. After that it is our part to follow him by "dying daily" to let the Holy Spirit have control of our lives. We have the "living sacrifice" to do. Much of Christendom overlooks this. Salvation is a two sacrifice process. They usually only see one. If God himself came to the Earth and lived and died for us, it would make following Jesus's living sacrifice of dying daily to serve God, something impossible. How can a man follow God in his deeds and works, even without the miracles? This is the lie of the devil. He tells us we are not God and therefore cannot attain the standards of Christ(supposedly God). If you look into this and really think about it, it is really a very effective strategy of the devil and it has massive effects throughout Christendom. Are you saying that we are God then? Didn't Jesus himself say "ye are Gods"? I think John 10:34 Also there is a Psalm that refers to us being Gods because we are Gods sons and daughters. Psalm 82:6
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 14:33:17 GMT -5
Are you saying that we are God then? Didn't Jesus himself say "ye are Gods"? I think John 10:34 Also there is a Psalm that refers to us being Gods because we are Gods sons and daughters. Psalm 82:6 The term "god" was often used in OT times to designate someone in a position of knowledge or authority. Yes the sons and daughters of God are indeed gods!
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Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2014 21:31:21 GMT -5
Are you saying that we are God then? Perhaps not in the sense you have in mind? However, contextually we are indeed God. That is the whole purpose of God's plan, that his Spirit would abide in us and guide and control us. Not our will, but his will be done. Jesus prayed that we would be one with each other and with him and the Father, as he and the Father are one. If we are all one and of God, then contextually we are God. There is no redemption to talk about apart from our will becoming his will.
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Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2014 22:14:45 GMT -5
"All the prophesies speak of a human being Messiah, not God himself coming. God did come but through his only beloved human being Son, Jesus. God poured out his Spirit to Jesus without measure." But Jesus was an integrated personality. If God works through a person perfectly as he did Christ, the man's personality would not be bifurcated, hyphenated, or hijacked. Are you saying his personality knows an equal in history or to come? His personality equaled Adam's until Adam rebelled. Jesus told the naughty one at his time of temptation.."man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God." Adam and Eve did this until the naughty one (actually he was a very naughty one) beguiled them into disobeying God. That's why you and I were born with a naughty nature. I don't believe that Adam ever equaled Christ. Adam sinned like we all sin, "each one enticed by his own desire." Why wasn't JC enticed by his? Was it simply because he was inflated with an extra measure of the holy spirit, what I call, "power-pack-theology"?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2014 4:59:12 GMT -5
Perhaps not in the sense you have in mind? However, contextually we are indeed God. That is the whole purpose of God's plan, that his Spirit would abide in us and guide and control us. Not our will, but his will be done. Jesus prayed that we would be one with each other and with him and the Father, as he and the Father are one. If we are all one and of God, then contextually we are God. There is no redemption to talk about apart from our will becoming his will. Exactly. Salvation is a process, not a one off event. If God's will becomes our will, then we become one with Jesus and one with the Father, just as Jesus and the Father are one. That is redemption. We return to what it was in the beginning of creation. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which proceeds out of the mouth of God (JC c.AD30)
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