cbs
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Post by cbs on Oct 1, 2014 6:31:00 GMT -5
When a part of the 2x2 sect I never heard the workers called Apostles. The word "are" in Nathan's statement is fairly significant. I understand the Apostleship was given just to those men that had been with Jesus and were witnesses to his life and teachings. Paul was made an Apostle and by his own words:
That last statement points back to the 12 that were given Jesus command to take the Gospel into all the world. This seems to be a commission given solely to them and not to any other.
Are there any workers here that believe themselves to be Apostles? If so, what is your Biblical foundation for this belief?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 7:03:52 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed.
If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 1, 2014 7:19:11 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed. If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought. Partaker I have heard many of the brother workers make the claim that they were apostles in Gospel meeting .Including Joe Crane and Ray Hoffman. Usually done when talking to the children. ken
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 7:25:07 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed. If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought. Partaker I have heard many of the brother workers make the claim that they were apostles in Gospel meeting .Including Joe Crane and Ray Hoffman. Usually done when talking to the children. ken Thanks, Ken, as I have said I had not heard it personally, and do not dispute your word.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 7:29:46 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed. If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought. Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 9:15:48 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed. If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought. Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask?
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Post by rational on Oct 1, 2014 9:41:26 GMT -5
The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? Not sure how many people would want to be known as "drainpipes for the lord". I think fewer people rely on the healing power of prayer because there are alternative cures that show much better success, Or actually show any success. A child sick with a high fever suffering from febrile seizures 2,000 years ago would certainly look like they were possessed and no doubt they were prayed for. Then they got better. Just as they would have without the prayer. But in the minds of the believers, the prayer worked. Of course, some children died as well. It was explained in any number of ways - perhaps the parents had sinned. Today when a child dies because the parents withhold medical attention it is a crime. Why? Possibly because prayer is not a solution for today.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 10:30:55 GMT -5
When a part of the 2x2 sect I never heard the workers called Apostles. The word "are" in Nathan's statement is fairly significant. I understand the Apostleship was given just to those men that had been with Jesus and were witnesses to his life and teachings. Paul was made an Apostle and by his own words: That last statement points back to the 12 that were given Jesus command to take the Gospel into all the world. This seems to be a commission given solely to them and not to any other. Are there any workers here that believe themselves to be Apostles? If so, what is your Biblical foundation for this belief? i don't think i ever heard of a worker refering to themselves as apostles thats why they call themselves workers...
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Post by stargazer on Oct 1, 2014 11:03:39 GMT -5
I think there is a general sense of discomfort (maybe just quaintness? or out of date) with workers and friends referring to workers as apostles. I do hear, though, more and more in our region, reference to the apostles as workers.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 11:10:25 GMT -5
Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask?
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 11:19:23 GMT -5
The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? Not sure how many people would want to be known as "drainpipes for the lord". I think fewer people rely on the healing power of prayer because there are alternative cures that show much better success, Or actually show any success. A child sick with a high fever suffering from febrile seizures 2,000 years ago would certainly look like they were possessed and no doubt they were prayed for. Then they got better. Just as they would have without the prayer. But in the minds of the believers, the prayer worked. Of course, some children died as well. It was explained in any number of ways - perhaps the parents had sinned. Today when a child dies because the parents withhold medical attention it is a crime. Why? Possibly because prayer is not a solution for today. We have had discourse over this topic before. Money doesnt come into it. Im not talking about faith healers not even church leaders but christians themselves. Why believe in a powerful god and not believe not stretch out your tent borders and ask. Scripture says we can ask seek knock. Trying is the key. Why does he talk so much on faith and faith being like a grain of mustard seed? Why does he credit faith?. These are all valid important questions. The thing is he does hear and a lot of the time we are answered. I dont pretend to know everything about it. I just know that most often it works.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 11:29:42 GMT -5
I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? Do you believe the god you worship is powerful? Do you think he cares about sickness or do you think he causes it? Do you think he loves you? Is he your lord? If he is why wouldnt you ask for help? I am very puzzled by these questions, what on earth brought them on? Has anything I wrote indicate that any of these answers would be other than YES except for the first one which is yes but I don't think God causes sickness? There must be Reason for asking these questions, What is your point in asking them? Please enlighten me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 11:55:34 GMT -5
Ok, bubbles I think you have my quotation mixed up with the previous posting by rational.
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Post by fixit on Oct 1, 2014 13:23:37 GMT -5
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 16:26:48 GMT -5
Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? You say you believe he answers prayers. Then you cast doubt by referring to sculduggery around faith healing. Is that enough to stop asking for answers? People give these answers as a reason not to lay hands on the sick. Not to believe for a miracle for their child. Etc doubt and unbelief always follow as defence not to try. I was trying to challenge your thinking further.. I was also half asleep. I think im awake now.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 16:34:40 GMT -5
~~ Cherie wrote: Snow, could you quote the workers invitation here? If you want to leave out names, places--that's fine. Thanx, Cherie ~~ Snow wrote: Sure. A Gospel invitation in USA Did you know that .......There is a ministry going forth today just like the early apostles in Jesus' day, carrying the same message; they also leave home, careers and prospects in order to bring the same gospel message in the same way Jesus sent forth his first twelve apostles. These preachers have no salary, give their lives freely for the sake of the gospel, enabling them to present their message freely to others.
There is also a fellowship of people worshiping together just like the early Christians did. Meeting in homes for a worship service on Sunday mornings; these people are a living testimony of what this gospel produces in lives which accept its appeal. All age groups are included in this fellowship, each contributing a special part which helps make a brotherhood that is rich and fulfilling for all.
We are pleased to bring this gospel and fellowship to your neighborhood. Beginning Sept. 9th, 1990 we will be conducting a series of one hour meetings, introducing this way of life. No collections will be taken nor solicit for support made in any way. Kindly feel free to come, hear and see. Individuals and families are welcome.It then gives the address and time and the names of the workers. This message is not a true message is it? They are not like the early apostles at all are they? Its deceptive in content. Only partly true.
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 1, 2014 16:37:27 GMT -5
Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing. Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?' Why? Do you think he changed? I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? partaker If the purpose of the faith healer is to glorify himself and become rich, then Satan assists. The woods are filled with them. Perhaps even some healed not by God but by the prince of the air. I think its a grave error to believe that God no longer heals, nor speaks, nor acts in the world today.has God changed His mind? www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNq5pXSCZnw&index=2&list=PLE1D41C87F7E3F18CJMT ken
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 1, 2014 17:16:57 GMT -5
I have never heard any workers make the claim to be Appostles,however I know of some ministers and pastors who make that claim and have even adopted that title before their names. A few years ago I was discussing this subject with a brother worker and I asked him why it is that the workers cannot perform miracle if they are sort of like a continuation of the Appostleship? His reply was that he could not promise anybody that he could perform any miracles, not even casting out evil spirits or healing the sick or those that are in-firmed. If present-day ministers and Pastors are Appostles, who appointed them as such and why have they not got some of the powers that were bestowed on the early apostles? Like for examples, performing visible miracles: healing the sick etc. Paul who considered himself to be least of the apostles did perform at least one miracle if my memory serves me correctly, did he not? I stand to be corrected on this thought. Any christian can pray for people to be healed and delivered. The power that heals is not their own power they are just channels or drainpipes for the lord. The mystery surrounding practical christianity needs defusing in peoples minds. If your child is ill wouldnt you want to try and ask god and believe for their healing.Its simple it isnt difficult. Before anyone says 'its not for today?'Why? Do you think he changed? Yes, any Christian or believer in any other religion can pray!
The question is does the prayer work?
Is the person for whom they are praying healed?
If my child were ill, no, -I wouldn't ask god to heal them! . "God's" track record on healing isn't very good.
No, I'm not claiming that such miracles 'aren't for today?'
I say they never happened in the first place, in any time, past or present.
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Post by rational on Oct 1, 2014 17:24:39 GMT -5
We have had discourse over this topic before. Money doesnt come into it. It does for the Benny Hinn's of the faith healing bunch. You are not talking about people who claim to heal by faith? Are you talking about people who heal by physical treatment? Scripture says a lot of things. I would suggest taking most with a bit of skepticism. Because there is no material proof to offer? I mean, if an omniscient being thought the mustard seed was the smallest seed what else presented was in error. Good question. Since it has never been demonstrated, why credit anyone? They are questions. They are valid. Not so certain they are important questions. Any number of controlled studies do not support your claim. OKWould you be willing to set up some tests? Might be interesting. You select some number of 'targets' and deliver the list, in secret, to a trusted source. You then decide which ones you will 'heal' and send that list to a second trusted source. Deliver the prayers for whatever period you wish. We can then look at your target list and your prayer list and see if there is a statistical improvement for the "prayed for" list. Just an idea!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 17:30:25 GMT -5
I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? partaker If the purpose of the faith healer is to glorify himself and become rich, then Satan assists. The woods are filled with them. Perhaps even some healed not by God but by the prince of the air. I think its a grave error to believe that God no longer heals, nor speaks, nor acts in the world today.has God changed His mind? www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNq5pXSCZnw&index=2&list=PLE1D41C87F7E3F18CJMT ken Some where along the line I think that I have been misunderstood by you and by bubbles. Far from saying that God no longer heals, I believe that God is the greatest healer. God is in control every second of the day. When We become ill , it is God's hand that heals us and if it is our time to leave this earth then we will not be healed no matter how hard the medics try to save us. I agree with you that it would be a grave error to assume or believe that God is sleeping and no longer speak to our hearts, or acts in the world today , and I have not suggested any such thing..God still watches over us and He will continue to do so until the end of time; He is the provider of all our needs. He sends the sun and the rain on everyone, the righteous as well as the unrighteous. However We must accept the fact that Satan is still about and he still has power; his power was never taken away from him and he tries his hardest with all kinds of devices to mislead and entrap us. I have attempted to point out how satan might be involved with those practicing so called faith healing for financial gain. What God does not hinder, He allows because He has given us free wills to choose between what is right and what is wrong - free will to make choices. God does not really change His mind, If I am not mistaken I think that there is only one or two recorded occasions that He did change his mind about something but the occasions elude me at this time. They will probably come back to me . Ps: Oh yes, in 2 kings:20: 1-6 God had asked Hezekiak to put his house in order because he was ill and would die, but Hezekiak turned his face to tha wall and prayed in tears to God and begged God to extend his life. God heard his prayers and extended his life by 15 years, that was a change of mind by God.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 17:39:10 GMT -5
Rats When people refer to faith healers I usually assume people other than christians. The problem with internet is ive told you of a number of healings personal and otherwise over the yrs. You never believed any and give your own strong opinions about this. This doesnt mean it didnt happen. I would hope that you are not implying that im not telling the truth. My first healing was my back. Then the heart murmur. My daughter wilsons disease. My friends daughter not needing surgery. These were probably the largest healings. I need healing right know. The thing is as christians the bible says the lord wants us healed and whole. Why should we not put our faith in his power when we claim to love him?
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Post by bubbles on Oct 1, 2014 17:42:34 GMT -5
Partaker im sorry if I misunderstood you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 17:46:44 GMT -5
I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? You say you believe he answers prayers. Then you cast doubt by referring to sculduggery around faith healing. Is that enough to stop asking for answers? People give these answers as a reason not to lay hands on the sick. Not to believe for a miracle for their child. Etc doubt and unbelief always follow as defence not to try. I was trying to challenge your thinking further.. I was also half asleep. I think im awake now.
Ok, I think that I will leave at that, because I really do not follow your line of argument. Highlighting the recorded news of dishonesty practiced by some in connection in the area of fath healing in not a deliberate tactic on my part to cast doubt about faith healing in general it is more or less to highlight a possible pit fall.
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 1, 2014 18:41:11 GMT -5
I firmly believe that God answers prayers and that prayers is a mighty source of power; however, I am also aware that there is a certain amount of dishonesty and skulduggery surrounding so-called faith healing. A lot of it has been exposed on YouTube where secret cameras have been deliberately set up to capture the trickery involved in some cases. It appears that a lot of it is to do with money making. It is said that the love of money is the root of all evil. Some people part with their hard earned money but they are not healed. Witch doctors claim to be able to heal people too, does God have anything to do with witch doctors? I doubt that very much. So who do witch doctors pray to in order to bring about the so called healings? Ok, let me guess, the devil, satan, beelzebub? I suppose the devil looks after his own. It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? Does it seem a bit odd that one can believe that a 'god' will answer prayers and "heal" someone but only if it is the GOD in whom they believe?
If the "healing" is done by Witch doctors, then it has to be because any "healing" done is due to devil, satan, or beelzebub?
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Post by xna on Oct 1, 2014 18:55:42 GMT -5
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Post by dmmichgood on Oct 1, 2014 18:59:45 GMT -5
We have had discourse over this topic before. Money doesnt come into it. It does for the Benny Hinn's of the faith healing bunch. You are not talking about people who claim to heal by faith? Are you talking about people who heal by physical treatment? Scripture says a lot of things. I would suggest taking most with a bit of skepticism. Because there is no material proof to offer? I mean, if an omniscient being thought the mustard seed was the smallest seed what else presented was in error. Good question. Since it has never been demonstrated, why credit anyone? They are questions. They are valid. Not so certain they are important questions. Any number of controlled studies do not support your claim. OKWould you be willing to set up some tests? Might be interesting. You select some number of 'targets' and deliver the list, in secret, to a trusted source. You then decide which ones you will 'heal' and send that list to a second trusted source. Deliver the prayers for whatever period you wish. We can then look at your target list and your prayer list and see if there is a statistical improvement for the "prayed for" list.
Just an idea! Very good idea, rational.Just about anyone could privately do their own checking on this one.
Just listen to people at your church and hear their complaints of illness.
Then, do as you say, make your two lists and proceed. You would need more than yourself to judge the results, though. There should be several people whom you could trust not to know which list was the prayed for list.
Also you couldn't make your prayer list only those that would easily be "healed"!
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 1, 2014 19:49:38 GMT -5
When a part of the 2x2 sect I never heard the workers called Apostles. The word "are" in Nathan's statement is fairly significant. I understand the Apostleship was given just to those men that had been with Jesus and were witnesses to his life and teachings. Paul was made an Apostle and by his own words: That last statement points back to the 12 that were given Jesus command to take the Gospel into all the world. This seems to be a commission given solely to them and not to any other. Are there any workers here that believe themselves to be Apostles? If so, what is your Biblical foundation for this belief? ~~ Here are some scriptures about more apostles were sent out in the book of Acts... I have seen workers printed on their gospel invitations such as apostles, pastors, evangelists, and ministers because the world wouldn't understand the term workers. The Vaudois/Waldenses have called themselves apostles, pastors, and their followers as the friends. Paul and his co-workers called themselves apostles, and workers of God. Luke, Silas, Timothy, Epaphroditus, Apollo had never met or seen Jesus resurrection but Paul addressed them as apostles. The Apostle of the Gentiles: Paul the Apostle Main article: Paul the ApostlePaul, the "Apostle of the Gentiles", writing a letter. In his writings, Paul, originally named Saul, though not one of the original twelve, described himself as an apostle, one "born out of due time" (e.g., Romans 1:1, 1 Corinthians 15:8 and other letters). He was called by the resurrected Jesus himself during his Road to Damascus vision and given the name "Paul."[Acts 9:1-9] With Barnabas, he was allotted the role of apostle in the church. [Acts 13:2] He referred to himself as the apostle of the Gentiles. [Rom 11:13]
He also described some of his companions as being called of the Lord as apostles (Barnabas, Silas, Apollos, Andronicus and Junia). As the Catholic Encyclopedia states, "It is at once evident that in a Christian sense, everyone who had received a mission from God, or Christ, to man could be called 'Apostle'"; thus extending the original sense beyond the twelve.
Since Paul claimed to have received the gospel through a revelation of Jesus Christ [12] after the latter's death and resurrection (rather than before like the twelve), he was often obliged to defend his apostolic authority (1 Cor. 9:1 "Am I not an apostle?") and proclaim that he had seen and was anointed by Jesus while on the road to Damascus.James, Peter and John in Jerusalem accepted his calling to the apostleship from the Lord to the Gentiles (specifically those not circumcised) as of equal authority as Peter's to the Jews (specifically those circumcised) according to Paul. [Gal 2:7-9] "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars ... agreed that we [Paul and Barnabas] should go to the Gentiles, and they to the Jews." [Gal 2:9]
Paul, despite his divine calling as an apostle, considered himself perhaps inferior to the other apostles because he had originally persecuted Christ's followers. [1 Cor. 15:9] In addition, despite the Little Commission of Matthew 10, the twelve did not limit their mission to solely Jews as Cornelius the Centurion is widely considered the first Gentile convert and he was converted by Peter, and the Great Commission of the Resurrected Jesus is specifically to "all nations". Other apostles mentioned in the New Testament Person called apostle in ScripturesBarnabas Acts 14:14 — Andronicus and Junia Rom 16:7 Paul states that Andronicus and Junia were "of note among the apostles." That Andronicus and Junia were "of note among the apostles," that is, distinguished apostles.[13] That Andronicus and Junia were "well known among the apostles" meaning "well known to the apostles" Silas (1 Thes. 1:1, 2:6) Referred to as one along with Timothy and Paul, he also performs the functioning of an apostle as Paul's companion in Paul's second missionary journey in (Acts 15:40) Timothy (1 Thes. 1:1, 2:6) Timothy is referred to as an apostle in along with Silas and Paul. However, in (2 Cor. 1:1) he is only called a "brother" when Paul refers to himself as "an apostle of Christ". Timothy performs many of the functions of an apostle in the commissioning of Paul in 1st and 2nd Timothy, though in those epistles Paul refers to him as his "son" in the faith. Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25) In the passage, he is referred to as "your apostle" and the word used in Greek is apostle (ἀπόστολος). Although some translations render the him as "your messenger". Apollos (1 Cor. 4:9) Included among "us apostles" along with Paul and Cephas (Peter). (see also: 4:6, 3:22, and 3:4-6) From Wiki: According to the Bible's New Testament, the Apostles are the primary disciples of Jesus of Nazareth, the central figure in Christianity. During the life and ministry of Jesus in the first century AD, the apostles were his closest followers and became the primary teachers of the gospel message of Jesus. The word "apostle" derives from the Ancient Greek word ἀπόστολος (apóstólos), meaning "messenger" or "envoy" that was formed from the prefix ἀπό- (apó-, "from") and root στέλλω (stéllō, "I send", "I depart"). Often the word "disciple" is used interchangeably with "apostle" – for instance the Gospel of John makes no distinction between the two terms. In modern usage, prominent missionaries are identified as apostles – a practice which stems from the Latin equivalent of apostle, missio, the source of the English word "missionary". en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_(Christian)Gospel invitation to the 2x2 workers/apostles Gospel meetings in UK.1) November 2010 Are you feeling tired of life? Depressed or Disappointed with Religion? If so, come to our Bible services are being conducted by Present 2x2 Apostles Tom Gamble and H. McKnight www.tellingthetruth.info/plogger/plog-content/images/irelandscotland--england/ireland-misc./2x2apostles_0002.jpgNathan, when you were a worker did you believe you were a modern day Apostle ?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Oct 1, 2014 20:31:12 GMT -5
It is most interesting that many modern day miracles are claimed to be performed not by Jesus, but by the Virgin Mary, and the claim normally comes from Roman Catholics around the world. Is that due to a religious denominationl connection, one might ask? I agree with everything you said here, partaker (the whole post' not just the little bit above; and think yes, you have been misunderstood subsequently). I personally know of people who have been healed. But I am also very sceptical of many claims, especially those seen by tele-evangelists, and especially where money is involved. I think we should all have a healthy scepticism and not accept any healing claims at face-value. Yes, there are also other powers which can do miracles, this is attested to in the Bible. Some 'miracles' are wishful thinking. Some are deceit and skulduggery. Some are witchcraft. Do we pray for healing from God? Absolutely. I've seen the results of such prayers when medically speaking there was no hope. Does he always heal? No. But then again he's not just some big button in the sky to push for whatever we want. I shudder to think what would happen if he answered all of our prayers all of the time. If Christians always had their prayers answered exactly as they asked they would be the most insufferable, self-righteous, non-compassionate people on earth. The reality is, Christians are still subject to the same fallen world as everybody else. Sometimes God chooses to work a miracle, but I think this is not the 'norm'. Jesus himself never used miracles as an end in themselves, he only used them to prove his authority and point to himself as the one sent by God. Also, God has given us brains, intelligence, skills and knowledge to develop and use. We should be getting out there and using skills and knowledge to improve health and hygiene and cures around the world, not just praying for miraculous intervention. If he's already given us what we need in a practical sense for prevention and cure, why not use them? (I'm not arguing about anything here, just thinking aloud, I'm sure you agree with some of my thoughts here). Are the workers apostles? I don't recall hearing them call themselves such. I would generally reserve the term specifically for those who were in Jesus' direct ministry at the time of the new testament. The workers probably feel they have the same type of ministry as the apostles, but don't think they call themselves such, and have never claimed to perform miracles (that I recall).
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