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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 10:50:13 GMT -5
It is quite difficult at times for me to remain silent in this forum about topics studied in multiple languages, and not share the gained understanding if not knowledge. It has been said that wisdom is in knowing when, where and how to apply, even share knowledge and understanding.
For instance this word from the Greek translated "shamefacedness." Many of us simply understand it to mean "reverent and respectfully" giving a much different "take" upon what Paul was advising Timothy in his day and time for which it was written.
Do I personally believe it my job to teach younger women what application that has today? Nope, and neither did Paul in his day else he would not have advised that was the responsibility of the older women. Paul gets blamed a lot today for aspects of a common belief shared by many even today. Some prefer simply to not believe. That is their God-given right. I prefer to simply believe first, looking for reasons "why" rather than the absolute opposite. Then I make every attempt to share when I am allowed to do so, the what and why. Do I attempt to shove that down anyone else's throat? Honesty dictates I admit I probably did in times past, however in the present I make every attempt to tone it down, unless it is at a time like this when I'd really like to just share what I've learned from my own study and research. Still, this is only intended as another viewpoint to consider.
Grace and peace to each one.
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Post by withlove on Jul 24, 2014 15:54:26 GMT -5
It is quite difficult at times for me to remain silent in this forum about topics studied in multiple languages, and not share the gained understanding if not knowledge. It has been said that wisdom is in knowing when, where and how to apply, even share knowledge and understanding.
For instance this word from the Greek translated "shamefacedness." Many of us simply understand it to mean "reverent and respectfully" giving a much different "take" upon what Paul was advising Timothy in his day and time for which it was written.
Do I personally believe it my job to teach younger women what application that has today? Nope, and neither did Paul in his day else he would not have advised that was the responsibility of the older women. Paul gets blamed a lot today for aspects of a common belief shared by many even today. Some prefer simply to not believe. That is their God-given right. I prefer to simply believe first, looking for reasons "why" rather than the absolute opposite. Then I make every attempt to share when I am allowed to do so, the what and why. Do I attempt to shove that down anyone else's throat? Honesty dictates I admit I probably did in times past, however in the present I make every attempt to tone it down, unless it is at a time like this when I'd really like to just share what I've learned from my own study and research. Still, this is only intended as another viewpoint to consider.
Grace and peace to each one.
I'd love to hear the correct translation for anything/everything myself. Thanks for explaining that word here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 18:26:34 GMT -5
matter of faith? listening to what the workers have to say is a matter of faith... no if you read my post i told you i went and read them anyway and agree with thier statement... some say they are some say they aren't...even if they are not apostles they are appointed to lead us in the right direction(yes there are some that don't)... it doesn't use the world colorful it does say this...1Ti_2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; Who appointed the workers to lead us in any direction ? They are human the same as us ! Do you look at the Church of England as a worldly church ? So in your opinion what is wrong with the way women dress today compared to the 70's ? God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2014 18:31:56 GMT -5
not entirely you might be surprised that i don't agree with paul on a few things... If you can chose not to agree with everything that is written in the Bible, can you chose not to agree with everything the workers may say? I'm asking because you say that "listening to what the workers have to say is a matter of faith." And not even all the workers agree on everything, so why should one listen to them without judging for themselves also? Since this thread is about clothes, a worker we talked to before we met any other friends told us that when we get to the US we'll see that women in the fellowship wear skirts only. He told us that it is just a tradition and that it will pass with time. yes i can disagree with a worker i've just never had the opportunity yet to do so...
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Post by withlove on Jul 24, 2014 19:49:04 GMT -5
Who appointed the workers to lead us in any direction ? They are human the same as us ! Do you look at the Church of England as a worldly church ? So in your opinion what is wrong with the way women dress today compared to the 70's ? God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion... Pictures of 70's professing women still shock me...can't imagine being in meeting with bras that flimsy or skirts that short. I would die. Obviously that wasn't how all women dressed, just saying. And the 80's, fancy braids were encouraged and if you knew how to do elaborate hair-do's, you were praised for investing time into the keeping of your long hair or something. In the 2000s, the only women who seem to wear fancy hairdos are the workers, while the friends do simple buns...although in last couple years there is a trend back to braided up-dos. Back in the beginning, the black stockings were required, right? I have heard an older lady saying what a shame it is that young girls wear black tights in the winter time when they should be wearing nude hose. I mean. It's all over the place.
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Post by Roselyn T on Jul 24, 2014 21:25:52 GMT -5
Who appointed the workers to lead us in any direction ? They are human the same as us ! Do you look at the Church of England as a worldly church ? So in your opinion what is wrong with the way women dress today compared to the 70's ? God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion... The workers are NOT Jesus or Paul or Moses or Abraham. We look to Jesus not people in leadership roles. So Wally I have to disagree with the idea that God appoints people to leadership roles. So if the Church of England is a weaker church why are you using the Bible that King James translated for The Church of England? So in your opinion how are women suppose to dress? Maybe we should dress like they did in Bible days ?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 24, 2014 22:44:52 GMT -5
Who appointed the workers to lead us in any direction ? They are human the same as us ! Do you look at the Church of England as a worldly church ? So in your opinion what is wrong with the way women dress today compared to the 70's ? God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion... SHALL WE DISCUSS WHAT THE WORD "MODESTY" MEANS?
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Post by withlove on Jul 24, 2014 22:48:05 GMT -5
God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion... SHALL WE DISCUSS WHAT THE WORD "MODESTY" MEANS?
Yes, pls.
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Post by mdm on Jul 25, 2014 3:53:34 GMT -5
If you can chose not to agree with everything that is written in the Bible, can you chose not to agree with everything the workers may say? I'm asking because you say that "listening to what the workers have to say is a matter of faith." And not even all the workers agree on everything, so why should one listen to them without judging for themselves also? Since this thread is about clothes, a worker we talked to before we met any other friends told us that when we get to the US we'll see that women in the fellowship wear skirts only. He told us that it is just a tradition and that it will pass with time. yes i can disagree with a worker i've just never had the opportunity yet to do so... So, you have the right to judge what the workers say? Then "listening to what the workers have to say is a matter of faith" is not completely true - you use your judgment, not just faith when listening to the workers. That's good, because Jesus said: "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?" And, given that not even the workers agree on everything, why even talk about having faith in what the workers say? I don't mean it in a disrespectful way, but as in: they shouldn't be regarded as demi-gods - they are human, just like the rest of us.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 3:55:30 GMT -5
Sharing from knowledge gained from almost fifty years of scholastical Biblical Greek study, I always like to preface my comments that I prefer using a text I am studying to best help me understand the concepts being focused upon. In this case, the translated word, "modest" from my transliteration of the Biblical Greek word "kosmios" is used only twice in Stephen's Greek Textus Receptus of 1550 from which the 1611 KJV is translated. The words "modestly" and "modesty" are simply absent in the KJV text. It is an adjective used once in application to men, and once to women.
As "kosmios" is translated applying to men it is worded "of good behavior" and applying to women, "modest". I find no scholastic reason for that discrepancy, nor do I believe modern words should be used in attempt to justify a current meaning of centuries old text, though that approach is often used. I simply cannot find it reliable, and do find it frequently unreliable. So, my own understanding of the word's use is along the line of "acceptable for the time."
Do I expect everyone to agree with me? Nope, I certainly do not, and my intention here is simply to begin a sound basis for discussion without going off on a tangent right to begin with. All know how I have reached the conclusion expressed here, as I have sought to be as concise as I possibly can.
Just a little aside comment here, smile. Have come a long way from believing God spoke what I now enjoy in KJV English!
Also, when we translate from one language to another, our intention is to preserve the meaning being expressed as best possible. Not always an easy task for this scholar.
An added note: requesting none to use the phrase "in the original Greek" as a result of learning from anything I might post. Why? Because in my nearly 50 years of study and research of the topic, I have simply found no "original Greek" available and that comment reveals an ignorance of that fact. I'd like to add to others wisdom and credibility not detract from it..
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Post by mdm on Jul 25, 2014 9:12:51 GMT -5
According to biblehub.com/greek/2887.htm, "kosmios" means: orderly, virtuous, decent, modest, well-ordered. So according to 1 Timothy 2:9, women should adorn themselves in "kosmio" apparel (pick the word you like from the definition list), and according to 1 Timothy 3:2, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, "kosmion," hospitable, and so on. As Dennis points out, it's up to the translator to decide which meaning to ascribe to the word each time it's used, and that process is not easy nor without controversy. When a word is used only once or twice, that makes it even harder to translate, since we are not sure just what the word meant in that time period, right Dennis? I like to read Young's Literal Translation and see how he translated certain words (any other suggestions?). In this case, according to YLT, women should be "in becoming apparel," and overseers should be "decent." Young does use the word "modest," but not to translate "kosmios." He uses it to translate the word "aidous" which KJV translates as "shamefacedness." The word "audous" means: shame, modesty. Since I prefer "modesty" to "shame," I'll go with YLT I like Dennis' explanation of "kosmios" when related to apparel as "acceptable for the time." And if "aidous" means "modesty" and "shame," then I understand it as "not taking pride in your looks" or "not trusting in your looks." Any thoughts on that?
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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2014 10:00:17 GMT -5
According to biblehub.com/greek/2887.htm, "kosmios" means: orderly, virtuous, decent, modest, well-ordered. So according to 1 Timothy 2:9, women should adorn themselves in "kosmio" apparel (pick the word you like from the definition list), and according to 1 Timothy 3:2, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, "kosmion," hospitable, and so on. As Dennis points out, it's up to the translator to decide which meaning to ascribe to the word each time it's used, and that process is not easy nor without controversy. When a word is used only once or twice, that makes it even harder to translate, since we are not sure just what the word meant in that time period, right Dennis? I like to read Young's Literal Translation and see how he translated certain words (any other suggestions?). In this case, according to YLT, women should be "in becoming apparel," and overseers should be "decent." Young does use the word "modest," but not to translate "kosmios." He uses it to translate the word "aidous" which KJV translates as "shamefacedness." The word "audous" means: shame, modesty. Since I prefer "modesty" to "shame," I'll go with YLT I like Dennis' explanation of "kosmios" when related to apparel as "acceptable for the time." And if "aidous" means "modesty" and "shame," then I understand it as "not taking pride in your looks" or "not trusting in your looks." Any thoughts on that? While I believe there is nothing wrong with taking pride in how we look/appear, I do agree we do not rely on our looks for anything. It is up to us to become beautiful on the inside. When we get old that's the only beauty we will retain (well most of anyway).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 10:02:44 GMT -5
Yes, Ma'am, Katie and I are in complete agreement with your post, Maja. Had eliminated some of what you posted because it, while Greek, has not been part of my study of Biblical Greek to which I attempt to limit myself. Very correct, however, in my opinion. Thank you for adding it.
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Post by mdm on Jul 25, 2014 10:12:47 GMT -5
According to biblehub.com/greek/2887.htm, "kosmios" means: orderly, virtuous, decent, modest, well-ordered. So according to 1 Timothy 2:9, women should adorn themselves in "kosmio" apparel (pick the word you like from the definition list), and according to 1 Timothy 3:2, an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, "kosmion," hospitable, and so on. As Dennis points out, it's up to the translator to decide which meaning to ascribe to the word each time it's used, and that process is not easy nor without controversy. When a word is used only once or twice, that makes it even harder to translate, since we are not sure just what the word meant in that time period, right Dennis? I like to read Young's Literal Translation and see how he translated certain words (any other suggestions?). In this case, according to YLT, women should be "in becoming apparel," and overseers should be "decent." Young does use the word "modest," but not to translate "kosmios." He uses it to translate the word "aidous" which KJV translates as "shamefacedness." The word "audous" means: shame, modesty. Since I prefer "modesty" to "shame," I'll go with YLT I like Dennis' explanation of "kosmios" when related to apparel as "acceptable for the time." And if "aidous" means "modesty" and "shame," then I understand it as "not taking pride in your looks" or "not trusting in your looks." Any thoughts on that? While I believe there is nothing wrong with taking pride in how we look/appear, I do agree we do not rely on our looks for anything. It is up to us to become beautiful on the inside. When we get old that's the only beauty we will retain (well most of anyway). Taking pride in how we look... well, if it's looking in the mirror and deciding, yes, these colors and textures go well together, and it all looks ok on me and it's appropriate for the occasion, that's not pride, it's just "getting ready." Everybody does that, even sister workers On the other hand, even F&W can fall into the trap of taking pride in their looks and trusting in their looks as much as anybody else - it takes a certain look/appearance to gain full acceptance and reputation within the group.
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Post by mdm on Jul 25, 2014 10:19:52 GMT -5
Yes, Ma'am, Katie and I are in complete agreement with your post, Maja. Had eliminated some of what you posted because it, while Greek, has not been part of my study of Biblical Greek to which I attempt to limit myself. Very correct, however, in my opinion. Thank you for adding it. It sure is all Greek to me, and I sure haven't taken the time to study the subject in any depth, but I'm thankful for Internet and for what I can glean from it
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 11:50:23 GMT -5
God works through "preachers" and people quite often... Christ / God / the Holy Spirit appoints poeple to leadership roles all the time just read the bible about abraham,moses,john the baptist, Jesus and Paul to name a few....this miracle didn't stop after the 1st century... i look at the CHurch of england as a weaker church... simply put women are just not as modest as they were in the 70's...and they weren't as modest as those in the prior years to them either...its a slow erosion... The workers are NOT Jesus or Paul or Moses or Abraham. We look to Jesus not people in leadership roles. So Wally I have to disagree with the idea that God appoints people to leadership roles. So if the Church of England is a weaker church why are you using the Bible that King James translated for The Church of England? So in your opinion how are women suppose to dress? Maybe we should dress like they did in Bible days ? i don't know of any church that doesn't look to people in leadership roles... as i said before we have to give some credit to those that made sure the gospel got printed and shared... if women dressed as they did in biblical times i would not complain..i know thats old fashioned...
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Post by withlove on Jul 25, 2014 15:26:03 GMT -5
i don't know of any church that doesn't look to people in leadership roles... as i said before we have to give some credit to those that made sure the gospel got printed and shared... if women dressed as they did in biblical times i would not complain..i know thats old fashioned... Have really appreciated when workers have said: don't just believe what we say--search the spirits. Also when they say that the bible and the workers don't have answers for everything and that we should pray to know what to do. That said, it is hard to decipher what is the Holy Spirit and God's answers when we have been indoctrinated with certain things and our minds are prisons of belief. So the when the workers say those very appropriate things it can actually just reaffirm the party line. Example: Everyone has been taught that we should do X. Worker infers or states that there is no definitive answer on that and we should search our hearts/pray/etc. We have been conditioned to accept that whatever the group thinks is correct and godly and to have anxiety whenever we have doubts about that, and made to feel guilty if we go against it. We interpret that as the Spirit reproving us, b/c that's what we've always known. We resign ourselves to not change anything. OR we go against the bad feelings and do make a change. We are rewarded by judgement from the group. If we repeat that there is no definitive answer on the issue, people think we are stretching the worker's words to accommodate our first born nature. So we resign ourselves to go back to the group way, or suffer the prejudice. Or leave. We could just make a good decision and safe our emotional and mental energies on learning and living for Christ instead...if we weren't so screwed up by the brainwashing.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2014 18:10:14 GMT -5
i don't know of any church that doesn't look to people in leadership roles... as i said before we have to give some credit to those that made sure the gospel got printed and shared... if women dressed as they did in biblical times i would not complain..i know thats old fashioned... Have really appreciated when workers have said: don't just believe what we say--search the spirits. Also when they say that the bible and the workers don't have answers for everything and that we should pray to know what to do. That said, it is hard to decipher what is the Holy Spirit and God's answers when we have been indoctrinated with certain things and our minds are prisons of belief. So the when the workers say those very appropriate things it can actually just reaffirm the party line. Example: Everyone has been taught that we should do X. Worker infers or states that there is no definitive answer on that and we should search our hearts/pray/etc. We have been conditioned to accept that whatever the group thinks is correct and godly and to have anxiety whenever we have doubts about that, and made to feel guilty if we go against it. We interpret that as the Spirit reproving us, b/c that's what we've always known. We resign ourselves to not change anything. OR we go against the bad feelings and do make a change. We are rewarded by judgement from the group. If we repeat that there is no definitive answer on the issue, people think we are stretching the worker's words to accommodate our first born nature. So we resign ourselves to go back to the group way, or suffer the prejudice. Or leave. We could just make a good decision and safe our emotional and mental energies on learning and living for Christ instead...if we weren't so screwed up by the brainwashing. very true were suppose to search seek and find out things for ourselves if we have questions no one can answer but preachers and workers can be a great resource for understanding Gods way. we dont have to reinvent the wheel everytime...
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Post by mdm on Jul 26, 2014 4:06:50 GMT -5
The workers are NOT Jesus or Paul or Moses or Abraham. We look to Jesus not people in leadership roles. So Wally I have to disagree with the idea that God appoints people to leadership roles. So if the Church of England is a weaker church why are you using the Bible that King James translated for The Church of England? So in your opinion how are women suppose to dress? Maybe we should dress like they did in Bible days ? i don't know of any church that doesn't look to people in leadership roles...as i said before we have to give some credit to those that made sure the gospel got printed and shared... if women dressed as they did in biblical times i would not complain..i know thats old fashioned... True, but I don't know haven't been to any other church where the preachers say that they are the "anointed ones," that people should obey them regardless of what their conscience tells them, where we hear both from the "pews" and the platform that we are hearing "the voice of God" through preachers, where people are taught that they can be saved only if they accept the Gospel only through these particular preachers (with a few exceptions). OK, I could have probably heard similar things when I was in the Eastern Orthodox church for a brief time.
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Post by withlove on Jul 27, 2014 15:48:12 GMT -5
Have really appreciated when workers have said: don't just believe what we say--search the spirits. Also when they say that the bible and the workers don't have answers for everything and that we should pray to know what to do. That said, it is hard to decipher what is the Holy Spirit and God's answers when we have been indoctrinated with certain things and our minds are prisons of belief. So the when the workers say those very appropriate things it can actually just reaffirm the party line. Example: Everyone has been taught that we should do X. Worker infers or states that there is no definitive answer on that and we should search our hearts/pray/etc. We have been conditioned to accept that whatever the group thinks is correct and godly and to have anxiety whenever we have doubts about that, and made to feel guilty if we go against it. We interpret that as the Spirit reproving us, b/c that's what we've always known. We resign ourselves to not change anything. OR we go against the bad feelings and do make a change. We are rewarded by judgement from the group. If we repeat that there is no definitive answer on the issue, people think we are stretching the worker's words to accommodate our first born nature. So we resign ourselves to go back to the group way, or suffer the prejudice. Or leave. We could just make a good decision and safe our emotional and mental energies on learning and living for Christ instead...if we weren't so screwed up by the brainwashing. very true were suppose to search seek and find out things for ourselves if we have questions no one can answer but preachers and workers can be a great resource for understanding Gods way. we dont have to reinvent the wheel everytime... Well, there are lots of traditions which societies, nations, organizations, etc. no longer follow, for the good of everyone. The change started with some brave people who met opposition and were accused of being troublemakers and being hung up on small things instead of focusing on the larger good. That has happened in the F&W previously. For me, there's an internal struggle about what is the honest thing to do about the problems. If some wheels need to be reinvented then they should, I think.
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jj
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Post by jj on Jul 29, 2014 6:20:54 GMT -5
i don't know of any church that doesn't look to people in leadership roles... as i said before we have to give some credit to those that made sure the gospel got printed and shared... if women dressed as they did in biblical times i would not complain..i know thats old fashioned... Have really appreciated when workers have said: don't just believe what we say--search the spirits. Also when they say that the bible and the workers don't have answers for everything and that we should pray to know what to do. That said, it is hard to decipher what is the Holy Spirit and God's answers when we have been indoctrinated with certain things and our minds are prisons of belief. So the when the workers say those very appropriate things it can actually just reaffirm the party line. Example: Everyone has been taught that we should do X. Worker infers or states that there is no definitive answer on that and we should search our hearts/pray/etc. We have been conditioned to accept that whatever the group thinks is correct and godly and to have anxiety whenever we have doubts about that, and made to feel guilty if we go against it. We interpret that as the Spirit reproving us, b/c that's what we've always known. We resign ourselves to not change anything. OR we go against the bad feelings and do make a change. We are rewarded by judgement from the group. If we repeat that there is no definitive answer on the issue, people think we are stretching the worker's words to accommodate our first born nature. So we resign ourselves to go back to the group way, or suffer the prejudice. Or leave. We could just make a good decision and safe our emotional and mental energies on learning and living for Christ instead...if we weren't so screwed up by the brainwashing. withlove, you write so well! You articulated exactly the patterns of thought I had myself trapped in. The workers sermons often seemed contrary to one another, being told to keep the standard of the kingdom (read unwritten rules) because someone might be looking on our lives, then later all about not judging appearances. Now that I think about it, probably a lot of what I spoke about in the fellowship meetings was the same...contrary from one week to the next.
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