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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2014 20:25:26 GMT -5
Come on! for having short hair?
Did you hear from the platform every, and I do mean every, convention a sermon on men's appearance?
The last convention that I was in, I sat waiting for the time the honored sermon on women's dress. I didn't wait in vain.
It was a one sentence, kind of side swipe direction.
But it was there!
Did I hear Anything about MEN'S apparel? NO!
nevertheless it happened till i got big enough to defend myself...i've heard sermons about men wearing suits to mtg, clean clothes(no tears which was a style for a time), slacks, nice shoes, ties(about the most useless piece of clothing if there ever was one)i remember dreading going out to eat on sundays for fear of being seen in a suit by my school friends which i would hear about at school if i did... I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2014 20:44:51 GMT -5
I have wondered before about whether you & I are talking about the same religion and now I do believe that we are talking about two different churches.
I have never heard men's appearance discussed in meetings or conventions except for the brief time in the '60's when men were wearing their hair longer.
I do believe that you are talking about a totally different religion that the one I am talking about, what was called "TRUTH" OR "THE WAY" and what we refer here as the "2X2's"
you should come to the northwest where the truth is still strong... How old are you and how long have you been professing, wally?
I was raised in Illinois in the TRUTH, professed in about 1940.
As far as I know the TRUTH IS still "strong" here. I have family still in & hear a lot of what is going on.
I will repeat: "I have never heard men's appearance discussed in meetings or conventions except for the brief time in the '60's when men were wearing their hair longer."
Are you telling me that it is different where you live, -that you hear about how men are supposed to dress at conventions?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 20:52:37 GMT -5
Seems like it varies by region, generation, early workers who preached in the field etc..
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2014 20:59:14 GMT -5
nevertheless it happened till i got big enough to defend myself...i've heard sermons about men wearing suits to mtg, clean clothes(no tears which was a style for a time), slacks, nice shoes, ties(about the most useless piece of clothing if there ever was one)i remember dreading going out to eat on sundays for fear of being seen in a suit by my school friends which i would hear about at school if i did... I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment. Wally are you paranoid?
You are hearing negative comments about "wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding?"
Either you are paranoid and no matter what you would wear you would imagine people talking about you or you are joking!
First you say you were flicked on the head for "SHORT" hair and now you get negative comments for wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding!
Who was doing the "flicking" or making the negative comments?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 21:02:45 GMT -5
you should come to the northwest where the truth is still strong... How old are you and how long have you been professing, wally?
I was raised in Illinois in the TRUTH, professed in about 1940.
As far as I know the TRUTH IS still "strong" here. I have family still in & hear a lot of what is going on.
I will repeat: "I have never heard men's appearance discussed in meetings or conventions except for the brief time in the '60's when men were wearing their hair longer."
Are you telling me that it is different where you live, -that you hear about how men are supposed to dress at conventions?
i'm 49 and been in the truth for about 35 years. yes its been spoken on at conventions at olympia and milltown...and it was spoken on during some young folk meetings when they use to have them...
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Post by Greg on Jul 5, 2014 21:03:45 GMT -5
I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment. Wally are you paranoid?
You are hearing negative comments about "wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding?"
Either you are paranoid and no matter what you would wear you would imagine people talking about you or you are joking!
First you say you were flicked on the head for "SHORT" hair and now you get negative comments for wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding!
Who was doing the "flicking" or making the negative comments?
Ummm....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 21:04:09 GMT -5
I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment. Wally are you paranoid?
You are hearing negative comments about "wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding?"
Either you are paranoid and no matter what you would wear you would imagine people talking about you or you are joking!
First you say you were flicked on the head for "SHORT" hair and now you get negative comments for wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding!
Who was doing the "flicking" or making the negative comments?
you've confused me again with someone else....greg said that not me
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2014 21:46:22 GMT -5
Wilson Reid, Irish Convention: He makes some pretty profound assertions. and? You asked for something specific to support my claim that workers have insisted on appearance issues being necessary for salvation. Notice that Wilson Reid is advocating locking people out of what he considers a saved eternity. They just insisted that its necessary for salvation. do you have specific fact to back that up?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2014 22:04:30 GMT -5
Wally are you paranoid?
You are hearing negative comments about "wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding?"
Either you are paranoid and no matter what you would wear you would imagine people talking about you or you are joking!
First you say you were flicked on the head for "SHORT" hair and now you get negative comments for wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding!
Who was doing the "flicking" or making the negative comments?
you've confused me again with someone else....greg said that not me Yes, I'm sorry, I did get that mixed up with a quote from Greg.
You were the one that stated you "flicked" on the head ? Who did that ? Someone in the TRUTH or outside?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2014 22:07:36 GMT -5
you've confused me again with someone else....greg said that not me you've confused me again with someone else....greg said that not me Yes, I'm sorry, I did get that mixed up with a quote from Greg.
You were the one that stated you "flicked" on the head ? Who did that ? Someone in the TRUTH or outside?
outside the truth...it really ramped up once they knew it was a "religious" requirement
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2014 22:12:47 GMT -5
nevertheless it happened till i got big enough to defend myself...i've heard sermons about men wearing suits to mtg, clean clothes(no tears which was a style for a time), slacks, nice shoes, ties(about the most useless piece of clothing if there ever was one)i remember dreading going out to eat on sundays for fear of being seen in a suit by my school friends which i would hear about at school if i did... I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment. Sorry, I got your post mixed up with wally's.
Who were the people making "negative comments" about you wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding? People in the TRUTH or outsiders?
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 5, 2014 22:14:46 GMT -5
Yes, I'm sorry, I did get that mixed up with a quote from Greg.
You were the one that stated you "flicked" on the head ? Who did that ? Someone in the TRUTH or outside?
outside the truth...it really ramped up once they knew it was a "religious" requirement Ah, that is different! I had the impression that it was the workers! That is why I couldn't understand it.
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Post by ellie on Jul 5, 2014 22:24:29 GMT -5
That's my observation too. The modesty levels of the friends are somewhere in the same region as other church-going people. That is, an objective outside third party with no knowledge of the friends would not casually identify them if they were mixed in a regular church crowd. Those of us more keen to the nuances of F&W styles would have better success at picking out the friends in a church crowd. Some of the older ones would be quite noticeable in any crowd. Good point about the pants in meeting. The circular style of home meetings does present people differently than pew-style. However, the worker solution would be for longer dresses, not pants, in the case of the shorter skirt situation. I doubt that we will see pants in meeting for a long time. Because professing women (in our part of the world anyway) feel free to wear pants at all times other than in formal church events, I don't think there is any tension over wearing skirts to meeting-related events, at least as far as I can detect. In fact, I suspect that because some wear pants so much to work or school that some of them will welcome the opportunity to dress in a skirt on Sunday. Regardless, I don't think there is a broad or strong feeling of repression over the dress code situation these days so there is little impetus for change there. While I've heard of that "freedom" to wear pants in some other parts of the US, I never saw it in Texas. Perhaps that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I haven't seen it... It's true though that a lot of women chose to wear skirts/dresses when they want to dress up, and church is one of those places people tend to dress up for. Pants have a bit to go here yet. For example one of the girls from our Sunday am was recently having brunch in jeans and ran into our meetings elder's wife and her friend. She said she was mortified. A couple of years ago one evening I was hurrying along wearing a pair of skinny jeans. I turned a corner and ran directly into one of the sister workers. She didn't acknowledge my presence. I have also missed meetings because of a lack of transport. If trousers were accepted meeting attire I would have cycled to the meeting. I could have gotten there in around 20 minutes without getting too sweaty.
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Post by mdm on Jul 6, 2014 2:01:31 GMT -5
While I've heard of that "freedom" to wear pants in some other parts of the US, I never saw it in Texas. Perhaps that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that I haven't seen it... It's true though that a lot of women chose to wear skirts/dresses when they want to dress up, and church is one of those places people tend to dress up for. Pants have a bit to go here yet. For example one of the girls from our Sunday am was recently having brunch in jeans and ran into our meetings elder's wife and her friend. She said she was mortified. A couple of years ago one evening I was hurrying along wearing a pair of skinny jeans. I turned a corner and ran directly into one of the sister workers. She didn't acknowledge my presence. I have also missed meetings because of a lack of transport. If trousers were accepted meeting attire I would have cycled to the meeting. I could have gotten there in around 20 minutes without getting too sweaty. Which brings up a question: in areas where women are "fee" to wear pants outside of meeting, would they wear them when they are likely to run into a friend or a worker? Do they wear pants when visiting or meeting up with professing people?
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Post by Greg on Jul 6, 2014 2:49:31 GMT -5
I can see this happening. Even currently when I wear a suit to a funeral or wedding someone makes a negative comment. Sorry, I got your post mixed up with wally's.
Who were the people making "negative comments" about you wearing a suit to a funeral or wedding? People in the TRUTH or outsiders?
Some people who did not want to wear suits. Nature of the beast. Nothing to do with F&W.
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2014 5:04:18 GMT -5
Pants have a bit to go here yet. For example one of the girls from our Sunday am was recently having brunch in jeans and ran into our meetings elder's wife and her friend. She said she was mortified. A couple of years ago one evening I was hurrying along wearing a pair of skinny jeans. I turned a corner and ran directly into one of the sister workers. She didn't acknowledge my presence. I have also missed meetings because of a lack of transport. If trousers were accepted meeting attire I would have cycled to the meeting. I could have gotten there in around 20 minutes without getting too sweaty. Which brings up a question: in areas where women are "fee" to wear pants outside of meeting, would they wear them when they are likely to run into a friend or a worker? Do they wear pants when visiting or meeting up with professing people? Where I live pants are sometimes worn when meeting up with professing people - especially when biking. I doubt there would be concerns about "meeting a worker" by accident in pants, but discretion would be used to try to avoid provoking conservative people. Some sister workers wear pants when on holiday. Pants are not worn to meeting by professing people, to my knowledge.
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Post by ellie on Jul 6, 2014 6:34:10 GMT -5
We don't really feel free to wear pants so it really depends on who we are meeting. For a dinner out or other small event with people of similar age pants are the norm. For larger gatherings, or gatherings where older people will be present pants are not worn. Also we text one another in warning if we are bringing a worker. I have still worn pants when I've known workers would be present but I'm by far the extreme minority. Pants would be ok around the workers for cycling but I suspect that's about it.
The other thing I've noticed of late is that some of the girls are starting to wear the odd item of jewellery out. I was quite surprised to see jewellery at the meeting recently (but it was when we knew the elder + wife would be away).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 8:09:58 GMT -5
Pants have a bit to go here yet. For example one of the girls from our Sunday am was recently having brunch in jeans and ran into our meetings elder's wife and her friend. She said she was mortified. A couple of years ago one evening I was hurrying along wearing a pair of skinny jeans. I turned a corner and ran directly into one of the sister workers. She didn't acknowledge my presence. I have also missed meetings because of a lack of transport. If trousers were accepted meeting attire I would have cycled to the meeting. I could have gotten there in around 20 minutes without getting too sweaty. Which brings up a question: in areas where women are "free" to wear pants outside of meeting, would they wear them when they are likely to run into a friend or a worker? Do they wear pants when visiting or meeting up with professing people? Last week, my teen daughter met a sister worker for coffee at an espresso bar while wearing pants. I doubt that the thought crossed her mind "hmm, should I wear a skirt or pants for this worker?" I also doubt that the sister worker even thought "wow is she ever worldly!". It certainly wasn't always this way, but it is today. I don't know if this is an official worker policy here or if it just occurred over time, but managing minor lifestyle issues like this are no longer in the workers' job description.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 8:18:57 GMT -5
We don't really feel free to wear pants so it really depends on who we are meeting. For a dinner out or other small event with people of similar age pants are the norm. For larger gatherings, or gatherings where older people will be present pants are not worn. Also we text one another in warning if we are bringing a worker. I have still worn pants when I've known workers would be present but I'm by far the extreme minority. Pants would be ok around the workers for cycling but I suspect that's about it. The other thing I've noticed of late is that some of the girls are starting to wear the odd item of jewellery out. I was quite surprised to see jewellery at the meeting recently (but it was when we knew the elder + wife would be away). You're not too far behind us here. Any semi-formal meeting event would likely see women in skirts unless there was a sports activity associated with it. The key difference (and most important difference imo) is that there is no fear for women to wear pants in the day to day public. They don't fear running into the friends or the workers. My wife wears pants about half the time and I would say that the fear factor declined over time, starting the mid-90's and ending in the early 2000's. Some young women wear unobtrusive items of jewelry here too, but generally not to meeting as it would still alarm the old people, especially the ones who felt a lifetime of sacrifice for giving it up.
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Post by ellie on Jul 6, 2014 8:24:22 GMT -5
That is awesome!!! We are, I'm estimating, 10 years behind in the liberal areas. More elsewhere.
**edit Ok - maybe less then. I don't know how quickly these things change.
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Post by mdm on Jul 6, 2014 8:32:14 GMT -5
Fixit, Ellie, Clearday, what you describe is definitely more liberal than in Texas. Or perhaps my age group (40's) is not as liberal. Perhaps those in their 20's/30's do wear pants when getting together with friends of the same age? A young sister worker (early 20's)told me that she wore pants to high school, and if the workers came to the house, her mom would bring a change of clothes for her to change into in the car. By the time our daughter entered middle school, she refused to wear pants to school, period. We informed our workers about it so they wouldn't be surprised, and they didn't seem shocked or worried. Still, we took care not to offend others by letting her go in pants to friends' get-togethers (she didn't mind that at all). I've heard about teenage girls going to a kids' get-together in pants and being told they have to change into skirts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 8:41:51 GMT -5
I think there was a turning moment when the fear factor left my wife. Somewhere around 12-14 years ago, the workers were coming to stay and I remember the look on my daughter's face (around 6 years old) when she was rushed into a skirt. (sort of a "what the.....??" look). The fuss clearly made no sense to her. The next morning, she was given a skirt to go to school in, a rather rare event. That night, I mentioned to my wife that we can't be systematically teaching our kids a form of hypocrisy and living a double life. Up until then, my wife and our daughter wore pants quite regularly so it was only the worker-presence that raised the fear and caused the behaviour change. Anyway, my wife saw immediately what we were doing and realized that it was far more important to live with integrity than to jump hoops to look good in front of the workers. As it turned out, it wasn't a problem with the workers by then anyway, just an old habit which my wife superbly abandoned.
Anyway, I thought that story is a good illustration of how change is occurring, and how people can get over the old ways and habits which never made any sense to begin with. I think that the fear factor and desire to please the workers is one of the most difficult parts of change in 2x2ism.
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Post by mdm on Jul 6, 2014 8:56:16 GMT -5
You're not too far behind us here. Any semi-formal meeting event would likely see women in skirts unless there was a sports activity associated with it. The key difference (and most important difference imo) is that there is no fear for women to wear pants in the day to day public. They don't fear running into the friends or the workers. My wife wears pants about half the time and I would say that the fear factor declined over time, starting the mid-90's and ending in the early 2000's. Some young women wear unobtrusive items of jewelry here too, but generally not to meeting as it would still alarm the old people, especially the ones who felt a lifetime of sacrifice for giving it up. I've never seen shorts or pants at get-togethers even when sports activity was included. Your wife wears pants about half the time? And you are not talking about yard work or stroll around the neighborhood? Wow! I remember hearing a young US or Canadian sister worker about 10 years ago (this was at a convention oversees) say in a conversation that she would never participate in an activity where she couldn't wear a skirt. One thing that still makes me upset is that I was stupid enough to not wear pants when taking my kids to the park when they were little and not be able to climb and run with them freely. And to think that while I was worrying about not offending the F&W and being proper on the outside, certain ones who were rotten on the inside were being protected and presented as the holy ones! (I did wear pants to the neighborhood park, but not when the trip to the park involved other outings as well.)
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Post by mdm on Jul 6, 2014 9:05:24 GMT -5
I think there was a turning moment when the fear factor left my wife. Somewhere around 12-14 years ago, the workers were coming to stay and I remember the look on my daughter's face (around 6 years old) when she was rushed into a skirt. (sort of a "what the.....??" look). The fuss clearly made no sense to her. The next morning, she was given a skirt to go to school in, a rather rare event. That night, I mentioned to my wife that we can't be systematically teaching our kids a form of hypocrisy and living a double life. Up until then, my wife and our daughter wore pants quite regularly so it was only the worker-presence that raised the fear and caused the behaviour change. Anyway, my wife saw immediately what we were doing and realized that it was far more important to live with integrity than to jump hoops to look good in front of the workers. As it turned out, it wasn't a problem with the workers by then anyway, just an old habit which my wife superbly abandoned. Anyway, I thought that story is a good illustration of how change is occurring, and how people can get over the old ways and habits which never made any sense to begin with. I think that the fear factor and desire to please the workers is one of the most difficult parts of change in 2x2ism.Probably. My issue was always not wanting to offend the friends, as they would be more likely to see me than the workers anyway. I could just picture the shock and disappointment on somebody's face and didn't want to be disrespectful toward their convictions. It was always clear that our local friends felt very strongly about the skirt issue.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 9:40:09 GMT -5
You're not too far behind us here. Any semi-formal meeting event would likely see women in skirts unless there was a sports activity associated with it. The key difference (and most important difference imo) is that there is no fear for women to wear pants in the day to day public. They don't fear running into the friends or the workers. My wife wears pants about half the time and I would say that the fear factor declined over time, starting the mid-90's and ending in the early 2000's. Some young women wear unobtrusive items of jewelry here too, but generally not to meeting as it would still alarm the old people, especially the ones who felt a lifetime of sacrifice for giving it up. I've never seen shorts or pants at get-togethers even when sports activity was included. Your wife wears pants about half the time? And you are not talking about yard work or stroll around the neighborhood? Wow! Yes, this is a normal manner of attire: home, work and downtown shopping or whatever. In fact, I think it would be accurate to say "more than half the time", I haven't really given it much thought for a long time. Daughter would be more like 90% of the time in normal daily life. I have heard that sort of comment many times over the years. I expect there are still quite a few sister workers who feel that way. The important matter is that they don't impose that on others anymore in our part of the world. It's always a shock to discover what it is "really" like. I discovered that the ones perfect on the outside were the least trustworthy and least virtuous of character while the ones least perfect on the outside were some of the most wonderful people I know. It's not just a 2x2 failing either. For some reason or another, institutional religion either attracts or creates hypocrisy. I guess it's overwhelmingly tempting to try to please those whom we think have the keys to the kingdom, and will go to great lengths for their approval......hence hypocrisy just naturally occurs from that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 9:49:49 GMT -5
I think there was a turning moment when the fear factor left my wife. Somewhere around 12-14 years ago, the workers were coming to stay and I remember the look on my daughter's face (around 6 years old) when she was rushed into a skirt. (sort of a "what the.....??" look). The fuss clearly made no sense to her. The next morning, she was given a skirt to go to school in, a rather rare event. That night, I mentioned to my wife that we can't be systematically teaching our kids a form of hypocrisy and living a double life. Up until then, my wife and our daughter wore pants quite regularly so it was only the worker-presence that raised the fear and caused the behaviour change. Anyway, my wife saw immediately what we were doing and realized that it was far more important to live with integrity than to jump hoops to look good in front of the workers. As it turned out, it wasn't a problem with the workers by then anyway, just an old habit which my wife superbly abandoned. Anyway, I thought that story is a good illustration of how change is occurring, and how people can get over the old ways and habits which never made any sense to begin with. I think that the fear factor and desire to please the workers is one of the most difficult parts of change in 2x2ism.Probably. My issue was always not wanting to offend the friends, as they would be more likely to see me than the workers anyway. I could just picture the shock and disappointment on somebody's face and didn't want to be disrespectful toward their convictions. It was always clear that our local friends felt very strongly about the skirt issue. I think that is a reasonable approach. It is fair to be guided by the desire not to offend others, at least to a degree that is not easily determined. That would be what guides my wife to put on a skirt for meeting. Why unsettle people for no real benefit for anyone? However, I think sometimes we have the wrong idea of the limits of offence. For instance in an extreme example, if we fail to report a criminal of a crime we witnessed for fear of offending him, that would be a bad thing. It's a conflicting principle sometimes that really gets blurry in cases such as fear of offending people over their long held traditions which aren't particularly important in the big picture. People are guided by Romans 14 on this, but even in the way Paul puts it, it takes some judgment to apply it properly. By trying not to offend others, we risk becoming hypocrites.
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Post by jondough on Jul 6, 2014 10:36:50 GMT -5
I think the major change isn't so much styles, but more the fact that people are less concerned with being "Worker Pleasers". The workers realize this, and as a result very seldom try to micromanage what we wear, drink, go, etc....Every once in a while something may be said from the platform, but not too often. At convention we heard that the sister workers should be the women's example in everything - including how they should look.
Also, very seldom are people pulled aside and given a talking to about how they should look. Those days are fading very fast. In our area, there are some very conservative type, judgementalist (for lack of a better term). They will throw some harsh comments to only the ones that they know will take it. They wouldn't and have never said one iota to my wife (with one exception and she has asked for forgiveness waaaay too many times) as they know they have nothing to back it scripturally.
The day and age has changed. No longer are we just robots - doing things because the Workers said....without question.
Why this phenomenon of change, I'm not quite sure.
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Post by matisse on Jul 6, 2014 10:46:37 GMT -5
I have also missed meetings because of a lack of transport. If trousers were accepted meeting attire I would have cycled to the meeting. I could have gotten there in around 20 minutes without getting too sweaty. What if you were to show up looking like this? ;-) BTW, I have a couple of vintage ladies 3-speeds I might be willing to part with....
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