|
|
Post by fixit on May 25, 2014 19:48:30 GMT -5
INTERESTING TO SEE THE FRIDAY MEDIA ARTICLES,TO MANY NATIONAL MEDIA OUTLETS TO TRY AND BUY A MILDER ARTICLE THIS TIME? NOW JUST ONE MORE,JUST ONE,OF THE OTHER 12 ERNIE BARRY'S VICTIMS TO SIGN THEIR STATEMENT AND CHRIS WILL HAVE A PLAYMATE TO KEEP HIM COMPANY. Can you post links to these articles? |
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on May 25, 2014 20:55:29 GMT -5
This is OUR responsibility as adults, no longer vulnerable to predators. And this responsibility should never be obfuscated by any prognostications about the harm to a child. THIS SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO A CHILD. This should never happen to anyone. You are living in a dream world if you think that adults are not vulnerable to predators. I think one of the points was that the very systems/people that are currently in place to help past victims might be doing more harm than good. There is, for example, a whole industry built up to recover repressed memories. People have been jailed on the basis of 'recovered' memories. Memories which were planted and modified by the person 'recovering' the memories. Yeah... to the extent that if we are in relationship to another human being with anything less than complete and unconditional love (i.e., we want something from the other person), then we are all "predators". Everyone of us. Now I get "playing 'devil's advocate'". I also understand the value of thought experiments. But, sometimes the obfuscations that result from these approaches are not helpful. If you are attempting to equate the damage that one adult inflicts upon another (and we all do it) as approaching the damage an adult can inflict upon a child, then my assessment of you as a fellow human being has just plummeted to an all time low. |
|
colac
New Member
Posts: 17
|
Post by colac on May 26, 2014 17:16:33 GMT -5
This LaTrobe Valley court case on thursday gives the Federal Royal and State Commissions real teeth.The submissions from and via Wings are being confirmed more and more every day.Every person who down plays the seriousness of pedophilia disorder and damage is also adding to the workers brush off evasive attitude to victims and covering ups by shifting perpetrators and denials.
|
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 26, 2014 19:45:32 GMT -5
This LaTrobe Valley court case on thursday gives the Federal Royal and State Commissions real teeth.The submissions from and via Wings are being confirmed more and more every day.Every person who down plays the seriousness of pedophilia disorder and damage is also adding to the workers brush off evasive attitude to victims and covering ups by shifting perpetrators and denials. They need a Royal Commission to look at Queensland & the things that are happening & being covered up. |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 26, 2014 19:56:53 GMT -5
This LaTrobe Valley court case on thursday gives the Federal Royal and State Commissions real teeth.The submissions from and via Wings are being confirmed more and more every day.Every person who down plays the seriousness of pedophilia disorder and damage is also adding to the workers brush off evasive attitude to victims and covering ups by shifting perpetrators and denials. They need a Royal Commission to look at Queensland & the things that are happening & being covered up. The Royal Commission can only investigate what it knows about. If you're aware of child sexual abuse, why don't you report it? www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/share-your-story |
|
|
|
Post by Roselyn T on May 26, 2014 20:09:09 GMT -5
Thank you for that link fixit, I will have a look  |
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 26, 2014 21:16:10 GMT -5
Yeah... to the extent that if we are in relationship to another human being with anything less than complete and unconditional love (i.e., we want something from the other person), then we are all "predators". Everyone of us. Now I get "playing 'devil's advocate'". I also understand the value of thought experiments. But, sometimes the obfuscations that result from these approaches are not helpful. If you are attempting to equate the damage that one adult inflicts upon another (and we all do it) as approaching the damage an adult can inflict upon a child, then my assessment of you as a fellow human being has just plummeted to an all time low. I am saying that the traumatic damage people inflict on others is not worse because of the age of the victim. Jeffrey Dahmer inflicted great trauma on his victims. I don't think you could judge that the damage was less because the victims were adults. Of course, the data presented by Clancy speaks directly to the trauma suffered. Do you refute the data or just don;t like the results? |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 26, 2014 21:56:58 GMT -5
I don't think you could judge that the damage was less because the victims were adults. I have no doubt that children are more readily damaged than adults. Especially with respect to sexual abuse. Sexual predators exploit the fact that pre-pubescent children have not developed the ability to deal with decisions around sexuality. As they mature they become conscious that their innocence and their childhood has been stolen from them. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 26, 2014 22:12:35 GMT -5
Yeah... to the extent that if we are in relationship to another human being with anything less than complete and unconditional love (i.e., we want something from the other person), then we are all "predators". Everyone of us. Now I get "playing 'devil's advocate'". I also understand the value of thought experiments. But, sometimes the obfuscations that result from these approaches are not helpful. If you are attempting to equate the damage that one adult inflicts upon another (and we all do it) as approaching the damage an adult can inflict upon a child, then my assessment of you as a fellow human being has just plummeted to an all time low. I am saying that the traumatic damage people inflict on others is not worse because of the age of the victim. Jeffrey Dahmer inflicted great trauma on his victims. I don't think you could judge that the damage was less because the victims were adults. Of course, the data presented by Clancy speaks directly to the trauma suffered. Do you refute the data or just don;t like the results? unfortunately i'm gonna have to agree with rational PTSD in adults can be just as damaging and lifelong as for children who have PTSD...the only difference is length of time under PTSD... |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 27, 2014 0:11:09 GMT -5
Very interesting article. Susan Clancy has the support of the Raelians. Great endorsement. That probably stems from her earlier research in which she declares that people who are abducted by aliens are not crazy. Raelians agree with Clancy on her non-traumatic view of child sex and Rael states that "people must realize that underage sexual experience doesn’t necessarily harm children and traumatize them for life. What’s more, some children actually benefit from such experience in their sexual development – even if we don’t want to hear about it!”Since she claims that 95% of sexual experiences forced on children are not traumatic, perhaps next she will advocate legalization as long as there is no physical pain and there is at least one consenting adult? That seems to be the direction the Raelians are going. I wonder if it is just coincidental that her article shows up on a site that offers equally informative articles like "I had my First Orgasm and my Husband Doesn't Even Know It!" If 95% of sexual experiences forced on children are not traumatic, does it follow that rape should be decriminalised? |
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 27, 2014 0:37:03 GMT -5
If 95% of sexual experiences forced on children are not traumatic, does it follow that rape should be decriminalised? I can't see any logical argument that would lead to this conclusion. Clancy explained that the definition she was using for trauma was very narrow. That redefinition needs to be taken into account. Can you explain the logical path you took to get to your conclusion? |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 27, 2014 1:06:41 GMT -5
If 95% of sexual experiences forced on children are not traumatic, does it follow that rape should be decriminalised? I can't see any logical argument that would lead to this conclusion. Clancy explained that the definition she was using for trauma was very narrow. That redefinition needs to be taken into account. Can you explain the logical path you took to get to your conclusion? If sexual experiences forced on children are usually not traumatic, why would sexual experiences forced on adults be traumatic? |
|
jscc1
Junior Member
Posts: 175
|
Post by jscc1 on May 27, 2014 7:34:40 GMT -5
You are a horrid sick lot.Scripture says obey the law of the land. Get out to shelters and refuges and watch as people try to help little children,teens and women (&boys,young men)suffering cruel rapes crimes against their little lives.Post traumas as you would not believe. No wonder these boards are daily watched for royal and state commissions.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 7:39:58 GMT -5
You are a horrid sick lot.Scripture says obey the law of the land. Get out to shelters and refuges and watch as people try to help little children,teens and women (&boys,young men)suffering cruel rapes crimes against their little lives.Post traumas as you would not believe. No wonder these boards are daily watched for royal and state commissions. Most participants here fully acknowledge the harmful effects of child abuse. For those who don't, I have no words. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2014 10:06:03 GMT -5
And let's not forget the effect CSA has on families. Our family was wrecked by CSA carried out some years ago on our 14 year old daughter by a senior worker (now dead). Today I would go straight to the police but we were much less knowledgeable about CSA in those days. And, yes, it was hushed up by the overseer. Was I bitter - "yes". But today I give thanks to the One above who has taken the bitterness away - even though the effects of the abuse linger on.
|
|
jscc1
Junior Member
Posts: 175
|
Post by jscc1 on May 27, 2014 16:39:41 GMT -5
to finlandia,Yes they still appear as a mojority of trying to water down,even allowing their donations,they think go to further Gods Kingdom, to reduce justice for the crime.What effect does that have on the victims and families post traumas.(salt into wounds)
Also all,remember all the submissions collated by Wings to put together their documents to Royal Commission,that will come up along the line.
|
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 27, 2014 16:45:47 GMT -5
And let's not forget the effect CSA has on families. Our family was wrecked by CSA carried out some years ago on our 14 year old daughter by a senior worker (now dead). Today I would go straight to the police but we were much less knowledgeable about CSA in those days. And, yes, it was hushed up by the overseer. Was I bitter - "yes". But today I give thanks to the One above who has taken the bitterness away - even though the effects of the abuse linger on. There's a way to go yet before workers and friends could be considered "knowledgeable" about CSA. (Wider society has a way to go as well.) |
|
|
|
Post by whyisitso on May 27, 2014 17:00:50 GMT -5
You are a horrid sick lot.Scripture says obey the law of the land. Get out to shelters and refuges and watch as people try to help little children,teens and women (&boys,young men)suffering cruel rapes crimes against their little lives.Post traumas as you would not believe. No wonder these boards are daily watched for royal and state commissions. Jscc1, that's a bit rude don't you think? I don't think it's fair to generalize especially when you don't know people who post on this board and much less have any idea what people do with their time... Except maybe 'Magpie' & 'Colac' but that could be cause you're all the same person. Either that or you're triplets. |
|
jscc1
Junior Member
Posts: 175
|
Post by jscc1 on May 27, 2014 17:43:52 GMT -5
to wyisitso.Sorry if the cap does not fit some.What is wrong with what I said,have you reached out to a teen only to have them screem uncontrolably? Try this after reading filandia post. May have to print in all--- favisonlus.wordpress.com/tag/chris-chandler ---spreading the bad news not good news
|
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 27, 2014 18:08:22 GMT -5
I can't see any logical argument that would lead to this conclusion. Clancy explained that the definition she was using for trauma was very narrow. That redefinition needs to be taken into account. Can you explain the logical path you took to get to your conclusion? If sexual experiences forced on children are usually not traumatic, why would sexual experiences forced on adults be traumatic? Because any sexual contact between an adult and a child is considered 'forced sex' regardless of the nature of the encounter. A situation where a person shows a child pornography is considered 'forced sex'. If an adult shows another adult pornography I doubt it would be considered traumatic. The fact is that most adult/child encounters are not traumatic at the time it happens. It is also one of the reasons why it is not reported. |
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 27, 2014 18:19:03 GMT -5
You are a horrid sick lot.Scripture says obey the law of the land. Get out to shelters and refuges and watch as people try to help little children,teens and women (&boys,young men)suffering cruel rapes crimes against their little lives.Post traumas as you would not believe. No wonder these boards are daily watched for royal and state commissions. Most participants here fully acknowledge the harmful effects of child abuse. For those who don't, I have no words. Are there people who do not acknowledge the harmful effects of cases of CSA? Just as there are people who have experienced combat that do not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder there are victims of CSA that do not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. This does mitigate the severity of the experience. |
|
|
|
Post by whyisitso on May 27, 2014 18:34:01 GMT -5
to wyisitso.Sorry if the cap does not fit some.What is wrong with what I said,have you reached out to a teen only to have them screem uncontrolably? Try this after reading filandia post. May have to print in all--- favisonlus.wordpress.com/tag/chris-chandler ---spreading the bad news not good news From what I've seen on this board, the cap does not fit ALOT. Just because people have not done exactly what you've done or been through, doesn't mean they haven't done better or been through more or worse situations.. All I'm saying is you can't throw around that people don't care when you don't know anything about these people. I understand you're a victim of CSA by a worker. There's a lot of people that are victims of CSA ..... By workers or by others. It's all horrid and damaging. The issue is as has been said before - maybe these animals can't be cured of their pedofile tendencies but we surely can educate parents and children. Educate children that it is not ok for anyone to touch them inappropriately (obviously educate what is inappropriate first) that it's not ok to keep secrets etc etc etc etc..... And educate parents to go to the Police....directly to the police. If an employee at the local Coles tried to tough your child inappropriately you're not going to go to his boss and tell him, you're going to go straight to the police. Same needs to bee amongst the friends & workers. I will try and find the link you've added. |
|
|
|
Post by SharonArnold on May 27, 2014 20:02:10 GMT -5
Most participants here fully acknowledge the harmful effects of child abuse. For those who don't, I have no words. Are there people who do not acknowledge the harmful effects of cases of CSA? Just as there are people who have experienced combat that do not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder there are victims of CSA that do not suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder. This does mitigate the severity of the experience. Really?  !!!! I am not the most empathetic person in the world. Indeed, far from it, as I have spent a great portion of my life being both smug and self righteous. I cannot relate to people who have been victims of CSA or other types of sexual abuse - there is nothing in my experience that even comes close. But I CAN feel their pain. Had I been a victim of inappropriate sexual advances, I cannot even begin to imagine that the fact that someone else was little affected by a similar sort of experience would "mitigate" the pain of MY personal experience. Other than in a theoretical debate with people who have even less empathy than I do. We're not talking theory. We are talking real pain. Real people. We are talking a ministry that has failed to acknowledge or even begin to appropriately handle wrong-doing on the part of its membership. We are talking a man (who took my mother's funeral) saying stuff like this (from another thread): “This had happened many times in Canada (workers molesting children), and that the girls get over it and ‘we’ can’t put the workers out, because we have so few workers, and need them so bad.” This is why the discussion of Clancy's research is inappropriate, and even repugnant here. |
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 27, 2014 23:45:29 GMT -5
Really????!!!! I am not the most empathetic person in the world. Indeed, far from it, as I have spent a great portion of my life being both smug and self righteous. I cannot relate to people who have been victims of CSA or other types of sexual abuse - there is nothing in my experience that even comes close. I have no doubt that you can relate to people who have been sexually abused as children. Given the abuse rates it would be difficult to exist and not be relating with victims of abuse. But there are those who have stated that the incidents happened and it is in their past and is not an issue. Perhaps for the victims who are experiencing PTSD from the incidents. Have you read the actual research or is this just a gut reaction?No, we are talking research. Data from people who have been sexually molested. Of course, you could claim they are not telling the truth.In some cases, yes we are.On both sides of the story.We are. But it must be remembered that worker abuse is only a part of the problem of child abuse. Or perhaps you think that there is no sexual abuse in the families of members of the F&W. So you are talking about the criminals and the people who cover up for them? We certainly would not want any supported data that disagrees with your preconceived notions to be upsetting your apple cart. Since when are facts inappropriate in any discussion? I know that many here are opposed to Clancy's book. But that is not new nor unsupported. There are many studies but popular beliefs are generally not altered by facts, as indicated by the responses on this topic here. For example, from the National Institute of Health: A meta-analytic examination of assumed properties of child sexual abuse using college samples.If you have a subscription you can access the whole article on PubMed or access the PDF here: metaana[1].pdf (286.14 KB). Here is the abstract and it does make some valid points: AbstractMany lay persons and professionals believe that child sexual abuse (CSA) causes intense harm, regardless of gender, pervasively in the general population. The authors examined this belief by reviewing 59 studies based on college samples. Meta-analyses revealed that students with CSA were, on average, slightly less well adjusted than controls. However, this poorer adjustment could not be attributed to CSA because family environment (FE) was consistently confounded with CSA, FE explained considerably more adjustment variance than CSA, and CSA-adjustment relations generally became nonsignificant when studies controlled for FE. Self-reported reactions to and effects from CSA indicated that negative effects were neither pervasive nor typically intense, and that men reacted much less negatively than women. The college data were completely consistent with data from national samples. Basic beliefs about CSA in the general population were not supported.
(emphasis added)One of the researchers commented: Given the hyperbole that surrounds the issue of CSA, we emphasize the need for researchers to adhere to valid scientific principles in inference and precision when reporting the results of CSA research.The following article shows how Political Correctness and people's unfounded beliefs can act as a blockade for research. If supported data that opposes your point of view upsets you I would suggest skipping this article and sticking with your apple cart. The Effects of Child Sexual Abuse: Truth Versus Political Correctness by Hollida WakefieldThe Institute for Psychological Therapies CharterThe Institute for Psychological Therapies is a private practice of clinical psychology. IPT's primary work is related to allegations of child sexual abuse, but also deals with cases of sexual harassment, claims of recovered memories of childhood abuse, accusations of rape, allegations of improper sexual contact by professionals, forced and coerced confessions, false confessions, personal injury claims, mitigating factors in sentencing, custody, and medical and psychological malpractice. |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 28, 2014 1:07:32 GMT -5
I have no doubt that you can relate to people who have been sexually abused as children. Given the abuse rates it would be difficult to exist and not be relating with victims of abuse. Given the abuse rates it would be difficult to exist and not be relating with perpetrators of abuse. Might that explain why some of the arguments seem so anti-victim? |
|
|
|
Post by rational on May 28, 2014 8:45:03 GMT -5
I have no doubt that you can relate to people who have been sexually abused as children. Given the abuse rates it would be difficult to exist and not be relating with victims of abuse. Given the abuse rates it would be difficult to exist and not be relating with perpetrators of abuse. That may well be true but the rates for abusers is estimated to be much lower than the rate of abuse. Some of the difference is because of the classification of abuse or what constitutes sexual abuse. Usually it is any action between an adult and a minor that provides sexual gratification to the adult. But then there is a considerable amount of sexual abuse where the abuser is not an adult but an older adolescent. Jurisdictions have their own formulas that define these situations but is a 18 year old female having intercourse with a 16 year old male sexual abuse? I am not certain there is an anti-victim aspect to this but rather an anti-preconceived notion of what the victim should be experiencing. Researching and presenting the facts that are discovered is not anti-victim. Nor is it supporting criminals. Fearing that criminals will use the results in court does not mean that the data should not be presented. The more data that can be put together and the better child abuse can be understood the sooner strategies/preventative techniques/educational materials/etc. can be put into play to reduce the number of children who are exposed to abuse. How victims are treated should be based on verified data and not on the preconceived ideas of people who choose to ignore the data. |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on May 28, 2014 10:24:56 GMT -5
You are a horrid sick lot.Scripture says obey the law of the land. Get out to shelters and refuges and watch as people try to help little children,teens and women (&boys,young men)suffering cruel rapes crimes against their little lives.Post traumas as you would not believe. No wonder these boards are daily watched for royal and state commissions. Why would you assume all of this? What royal and state commissions watch "these boards"? I wouldn't be surprised that some would watch "WINGS" for new reports or potential new named victims and/or perps. I don't know of anyone that has been on TMB that doesn't simple deplore the CSA issues and heartily at that! Some of us are victims from our childhood days and some from our adulthood days....so I'm sure that those who are victims certainly deplore the forced sexual crimes upon humans whether child or adult......I'm not getting why you would call us a "horrid sick lot." |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on May 28, 2014 10:34:28 GMT -5
If sexual experiences forced on children are usually not traumatic, why would sexual experiences forced on adults be traumatic? Because any sexual contact between an adult and a child is considered 'forced sex' regardless of the nature of the encounter. A situation where a person shows a child pornography is considered 'forced sex'. If an adult shows another adult pornography I doubt it would be considered traumatic. The fact is that most adult/child encounters are not traumatic at the time it happens. It is also one of the reasons why it is not reported. " The fact is that most adult/child encounters are not traumatic at the time it happens. It is also one of the reasons why it is not reported. " Please explain in further detail what in the heck you mean that adult child encounters are not traumatic at the time! I have to disagree somewhat.....esp. when we're talking about within the 2x2 system, because the child has been "groomed" and is reminded "not to tell" or there would be some kind of negative repercussions....the child would live in fear that he would say something that would be like telling or the child is so confused that he wants someone to tell him what happened is expected to be normal, etc......I remember at the age of 13-14 yrs old that I had conflicting emotions about what happened and the way my body reacted to the assault.....I had no idea what to do about it. OF course we're talking about over 50 yrs ago and no one would have dared report anybody much less an adult within the fellowship, esp. a worker.....so I had to live with that way up until I got married and past.....tnen did I come to the understanding what that assault was all about and it wasn't about sex! |
|
!!!!
