Chris Chandler pleads guilty to CSA-March 20, 2014

[colac]

Sadly it is not a "clearday" webs(1)[e-mail]
web(2)....

Ernest ( Ernie ) Barry,was a former overseer in Australia who was............

Then find out the "wings" version of his case..Det Lambert says 12 more known victims but could only be charged on, one only, by hiring expensive criminal psychologist(representative to our top underworld) to avoid jail for being able to lie,coverup,that only one,victim? As an ex worker once said "they are masters of deciept".This does prove that. It appears workers pressure of the option of being loyal or ostracised to a lost eternity has other victims living in worker family fear.
Do you want him sharing the Lords table in communion with this as knowlege,amongst your vulnerable relatives? NO,pedophelia is a mental disorder. And he appears to have been listed on sexual offenders register for 15 years,so judge must have known something was beyond the one victim.

[fixit]

Jun 28, 2014 0:52:56 GMT -5 colac said:

Do you want him sharing the Lords table in communion with this as knowlege,amongst your vulnerable relatives? NO,pedophelia is a mental disorder. And he appears to have been listed on sexual offenders register for 15 years,so judge must have known something was beyond the one victim.

Was Chris Chandler on a sexual offenders register for 15 years?

It would be interesting to know why the ministry moved him from East Africa to South America and then back to Australia.

[colac]

NO it is Ernie Barry on a 15 year dangerous sex offender list,it appears,since his sentencing. Chandler is from now on one.

[curlywurlysammagee]

A conviction is a conviction and if you like a step on the ladder. If either offend again, nothing that some fancy pants lawyer says will help them much.

[magpie]

WHERE HAVE THEY ALL GONE? CANT JUSTIFY TRYING TO WATER DOWN THESE RESULTS NOW?
PS> REALLY GOING TO TAKE THE KIDS TO A CONVENTION NO MATTER WHICH COUNTRY YOU LIVE IN?

[goingforward]

I am the person who came forward with allegations against Chris Chandler. I have been reading these posts and just want to confirm and add some stuff. I was at the sentencing and have been involved with the investigation so I kind of know what I am talking about. Chris is now serving a 12 month sentence (min.3 mths), though he originally appealed his sentence, he handed himself in last week to Melbourne Magistrate, withdrawing his appeal and is now serving his sentence in prison. He was known to say that he withdrew his appeal because he was nervous of serving a longer sentence ( which he was told could happen if he appealed by the original judge in Morwell Magistrate court). He is also being put on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life and must submit a DNA sample within 30 days of being released from prison. I am not entirely sure what the restrictions imposed on him will be when he is released but one must assume that he is to stay away from children, therefore not attending meetings or conventions where there are children?
There is also something going around that I am being investigated, this is not true. I am not being investigated for my past (there is nothing of value there) and I am not being investigated for bringing forth false allegations. I think the guily plea and prison sentence would explain that.
Wendy WN is a clinical psychologist, not a lawyer. He had a legal aid lawyer in this case as he was self-employed and had no money. Wendy WN was used as a character reference as her occupation as a psychologist. She was a paid character reference. The money to pay for this reference came from an account which was opened up by a friend of Chris' (said friend is professing) so that supporters could donate money fo his defence.
I have been told that there were "inappropriate but not illegal behaviour" towards young girls while Chris was in the work. These words coming from someone who obviously does not know any boundaries, so what does he deem legal or illegal? No trust there.
I have also been accused of trying to bring the Fellowship down, so untrue. I want people to be responsible for their actions, people to admit that evil things are happening in the fellowship and stop trying to cover things up. I was told that going to the police probably wouldn't be worth it because what happened to me wasn't really sexual abuse. Well, I must say, the police and law system thought otherwise and other victims (though they will not come forward) were named in the investigation and not by me.

[fixit]

Jul 21, 2014 21:05:53 GMT -5 goingforward said:

I am the person who came forward with allegations against Chris Chandler. I have been reading these posts and just want to confirm and add some stuff. I was at the sentencing and have been involved with the investigation so I kind of know what I am talking about. Chris is now serving a 12 month sentence (min.3 mths), though he originally appealed his sentence, he handed himself in last week to Melbourne Magistrate, withdrawing his appeal and is now serving his sentence in prison. He was known to say that he withdrew his appeal because he was nervous of serving a longer sentence ( which he was told could happen if he appealed by the original judge in Morwell Magistrate court). He is also being put on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life and must submit a DNA sample within 30 days of being released from prison. I am not entirely sure what the restrictions imposed on him will be when he is released but one must assume that he is to stay away from children, therefore not attending meetings or conventions where there are children?
There is also something going around that I am being investigated, this is not true. I am not being investigated for my past (there is nothing of value there) and I am not being investigated for bringing forth false allegations. I think the guily plea and prison sentence would explain that.
Wendy WN is a clinical psychologist, not a lawyer. He had a legal aid lawyer in this case as he was self-employed and had no money. Wendy WN was used as a character reference as her occupation as a psychologist. She was a paid character reference. The money to pay for this reference came from an account which was opened up by a friend of Chris' (said friend is professing) so that supporters could donate money fo his defence.
I have been told that there were "inappropriate but not illegal behaviour" towards young girls while Chris was in the work. These words coming from someone who obviously does not know any boundaries, so what does he deem legal or illegal? No trust there.
I have also been accused of trying to bring the Fellowship down, so untrue. I want people to be responsible for their actions, people to admit that evil things are happening in the fellowship and stop trying to cover things up. I was told that going to the police probably wouldn't be worth it because what happened to me wasn't really sexual abuse. Well, I must say, the police and law system thought otherwise and other victims (though they will not come forward) were named in the investigation and not by me.

Thank you for the update Goingforward.

Hopefully other victims will follow your courageous efforts so that this great evil can be confronted and expunged from the fellowship.

I hope this difficult journey will help you to heal and move on.

[curlywurlysammagee]

Goingforward, thank you for your post. I find it incredulous that you could be accused of bringing the fellowship down. Surely Chandler and his kind are doing that. There deeds, like all evil that comes to light is that which brings the fellowship into disrepute. So I'm supposing that anyone who says this to you would prefer to cover up and be a part of the crime.

[Roselyn T]

Jul 21, 2014 21:05:53 GMT -5 goingforward said:

I am the person who came forward with allegations against Chris Chandler. I have been reading these posts and just want to confirm and add some stuff. I was at the sentencing and have been involved with the investigation so I kind of know what I am talking about. Chris is now serving a 12 month sentence (min.3 mths), though he originally appealed his sentence, he handed himself in last week to Melbourne Magistrate, withdrawing his appeal and is now serving his sentence in prison. He was known to say that he withdrew his appeal because he was nervous of serving a longer sentence ( which he was told could happen if he appealed by the original judge in Morwell Magistrate court). He is also being put on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life and must submit a DNA sample within 30 days of being released from prison. I am not entirely sure what the restrictions imposed on him will be when he is released but one must assume that he is to stay away from children, therefore not attending meetings or conventions where there are children?
There is also something going around that I am being investigated, this is not true. I am not being investigated for my past (there is nothing of value there) and I am not being investigated for bringing forth false allegations. I think the guily plea and prison sentence would explain that.
Wendy WN is a clinical psychologist, not a lawyer. He had a legal aid lawyer in this case as he was self-employed and had no money. Wendy WN was used as a character reference as her occupation as a psychologist. She was a paid character reference. The money to pay for this reference came from an account which was opened up by a friend of Chris' (said friend is professing) so that supporters could donate money fo his defence.
I have been told that there were "inappropriate but not illegal behaviour" towards young girls while Chris was in the work. These words coming from someone who obviously does not know any boundaries, so what does he deem legal or illegal? No trust there.
I have also been accused of trying to bring the Fellowship down, so untrue. I want people to be responsible for their actions, people to admit that evil things are happening in the fellowship and stop trying to cover things up. I was told that going to the police probably wouldn't be worth it because what happened to me wasn't really sexual abuse. Well, I must say, the police and law system thought otherwise and other victims (though they will not come forward) were named in the investigation and not by me.

Thank you goingforward for having the courage to stand up for yourself, I hope you can heal in time and go forward. It is time all the cover ups stopped and people stood together on this issue.

[mdm]

Goingforward, thank you for your courage to expose this wrong (Ephesians 5:11). Had the fellowship and the ministry in particular done it themselves, they would have removed the guilt and reproach from themselves and would have stood blameless despite of what some individuals have done. To blame the one who is exposing evil is to allow evil to continue.

A year ago, we pleaded with the ministry with the following words:
"We are aware that among friends and workers there is talk about “enemies of the way” as the ones
causing trouble and shining light on wrongs within the fellowship. Let us remember Nehemiah, who when
he learned of mistreatment of the poor and downtrodden said: “It is not good that ye do: ought ye not to
walk in the fear of our God because of the reproach of the heathen our enemies?” Nehemiah’s response
wasn't to ignore the problem and blame enemies for the reproach, but to address and correct the
problem in order to take away the reproach. When a mistake is corrected, “enemies” have no cause for
reproach. Let us do the same."

[whyisitso]

Jul 21, 2014 21:05:53 GMT -5 goingforward said:

I am the person who came forward with allegations against Chris Chandler. I have been reading these posts and just want to confirm and add some stuff. I was at the sentencing and have been involved with the investigation so I kind of know what I am talking about. Chris is now serving a 12 month sentence (min.3 mths), though he originally appealed his sentence, he handed himself in last week to Melbourne Magistrate, withdrawing his appeal and is now serving his sentence in prison. He was known to say that he withdrew his appeal because he was nervous of serving a longer sentence ( which he was told could happen if he appealed by the original judge in Morwell Magistrate court). He is also being put on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life and must submit a DNA sample within 30 days of being released from prison. I am not entirely sure what the restrictions imposed on him will be when he is released but one must assume that he is to stay away from children, therefore not attending meetings or conventions where there are children?
There is also something going around that I am being investigated, this is not true. I am not being investigated for my past (there is nothing of value there) and I am not being investigated for bringing forth false allegations. I think the guily plea and prison sentence would explain that.
Wendy WN is a clinical psychologist, not a lawyer. He had a legal aid lawyer in this case as he was self-employed and had no money. Wendy WN was used as a character reference as her occupation as a psychologist. She was a paid character reference. The money to pay for this reference came from an account which was opened up by a friend of Chris' (said friend is professing) so that supporters could donate money fo his defence.
I have been told that there were "inappropriate but not illegal behaviour" towards young girls while Chris was in the work. These words coming from someone who obviously does not know any boundaries, so what does he deem legal or illegal? No trust there.
I have also been accused of trying to bring the Fellowship down, so untrue. I want people to be responsible for their actions, people to admit that evil things are happening in the fellowship and stop trying to cover things up. I was told that going to the police probably wouldn't be worth it because what happened to me wasn't really sexual abuse. Well, I must say, the police and law system thought otherwise and other victims (though they will not come forward) were named in the investigation and not by me.

Incredible. Thank you for your courage. Now it's been dealt with by the courts I hope it helps in you being able to close that chapter of evil. All the best to you.

[magpie]

Going forward,thankyou. Now the others who are avoiding justice,step forward and face justice for justice. Is [senior worker, south America] being brought home? And is [Vic elder worker] going to demand Ernie Barry make an honest statement again to allow justice for the other 12 (police)known victims of 2x2s crime he was involved in? Again Going forward,Gods Love to you.

[withlove]

Goinforward, what a lot of turmoil you have been through. Hope the support you feel can more than counter the opposition. Praying for your healing and safe-keeping and that you feel surrounded by love, even if it's from people you've never met.

[withlove]

Jul 23, 2014 11:19:18 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 5, 2014 11:36:49 GMT -5 Persona non grata said:

(Reuters) - The United Nations demanded that the Vatican "immediately remove" all clergy who are known or suspected child abusers and turn them over to civil authorities, in an unprecedented and scathing report on Wednesday. The U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child said church officials had imposed a "code of silence" on clerics to prevent them reporting attacks/abuses to police, and moved abusers from parish to parish "in an attempt to cover up such crimes".

Link to complete article

The 2x2 ministry/Workers needs to heed the same advice: Immediately remove all workers who are known or suspected child abusers and turn them over to civil authorities.

~~ NathanB: I AGREE 120% that the overseers/workers around the world to take heed of this or they will end up in prison/jail like the overseer Jerome F and Bill D. for not reporting CSA. Walker wrote: Bill Denk and Jerome Frandle had to complete community service/Jail due to covering up Darren Briggs' perverted behavior. Darren Briggs was arrested a few years ago for a wrestling session in a basement that led to molestation charges. A then 12 year old was victimized in a home where Bill was spending the night. Bill Denk and Darren Briggs were companions in 06-07.

~~~ NathanB: Every worker should and must have a background checks for sexual abused history Before allowing enter the ministry And During their time in the work.

Chris Chandler and David Leitch letters June 2012
Dear Friends,

It is with deep sadness that I tell you that I have stood down from the Work. The police have questioned me about something which happened when I was a youth. This is years before and completely unrelated to my time in the ministry. I am making every effort to cooperate with the police investigation. It would not be proper to make further public comment about it whilst the investigation continues. After I began to serve God, I tried to address the issues from my past and a little later, sought professional counseling. I felt this matter had been settled years ago. However, now that this matter has been raised, I feel it is not appropriate for me to continue in the ministry. I want to thank you for your love and support during my time in the work. I am very grieved for the distress and anxiety that I have caused to any person affected by my past.

Chris Chandler

09/06/2012
Dear Friends,

In conjunction with Chris Chandlers’ letter above, I advise that the police have asked me for a list of homes that Chris may have stayed in during the years that he was in your field. I intend to provide the police with all that they require. This means you may receive a call or a visit from the police. Feel free to respond to their enquiries.

Below are the listed fields that Chris was in during his time in Australia, and his companions.

1991 Wodonga Jack Phillips 1st year in the Work.
1992 Shepparton Alan Cain then Jack Philips
1993 Launceston Ray Cruickshank, Evan Jones
1994 Ltn N/W Coast Ray Cruickshank, Evan Jone

1995 Wodonga Ernie Barry
1996 Wodonga Alan Ritson 1/2 year
2003 Ltn N/W Coast Ray Cruickshank
2004 Ltn N/W Coast Ray Cruickshank

If you have any concerns you may contact the Workers in your field, the Police direct (Sergeant Darren Eldridge 5131 7046) or myself.

David Leitch

Background checks! Of course. Other employers do for positions that don't involve living in other people's houses with their children. Wonder how many abusers committed crimes pre-work though? The friends could do background checks when there is a transplant into their field...overseers already know right? Of course, that only works if the crimes were reported.

[mdm]

Jul 24, 2014 15:17:46 GMT -5 withlove said:

Jul 23, 2014 11:19:18 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Background checks! Of course. Other employers do for positions that don't involve living in other people's houses with their children. Wonder how many abusers committed crimes pre-work though? The friends could do background checks when there is a transplant into their field...overseers already know right? Of course, that only works if the crimes were reported.

CC was sentenced for something he did before he went into the work. Overseer(s) who admitted him into the work knew about it. They failed the church when they admitted him into the work, just like they failed the church when they allowed alleged offenders to remain in the work. They need guidelines/policy that would prevent such failures from happening in the future, and where such decisions are not left at the discretion of an individual overseer.
If they can organize world-wide conventions, worker exchanges and hymn books, surely they can put in place safety guidelines, even though "it's not an organization."

[fixit]

Jul 25, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5 mdm said:

If they can organize world-wide conventions, worker exchanges and hymn books, surely they can put in place safety guidelines, even though "it's not an organization."

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

[withlove]

Jul 25, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5 mdm said:

Jul 24, 2014 15:17:46 GMT -5 withlove said:

If they can organize world-wide conventions, worker exchanges and hymn books, surely they can put in place safety guidelines, even though "it's not an organization."

 
Amen! 

Does anyone think this is likely? Do you think there are more overseers willing to make a change than not? Or would it be more about a few most powerful overseers?

[fixit]

Jul 25, 2014 15:02:26 GMT -5 withlove said:

Does anyone think this is likely? Do you think there are more overseers willing to make a change than not? Or would it be more about a few most powerful overseers?

Anything's possible.

However a lot of inertia results from the many years of conformity required for a worker to reach the position of overseer.

Also, overseers can be pushed aside by their peers if they don't conform.

[sharingtheriches]

Jul 25, 2014 15:02:26 GMT -5 withlove said:

Jul 25, 2014 11:04:25 GMT -5 mdm said:

If they can organize world-wide conventions, worker exchanges and hymn books, surely they can put in place safety guidelines, even though "it's not an organization."

 
Amen! 

Does anyone think this is likely? Do you think there are more overseers willing to make a change than not? Or would it be more about a few most powerful overseers?

Withlove, I feel perhaps a big deterrent to overseers or senior workers doing anything different then what they've done in the past about fellow workers who have been reported to them of suspect behaviours against children and/or abusive behavior toward vulnerable adults comes down to one thing. For some of them, it would be likely very hard for them to call their peer upon the carpet since they themselves are not completely clean! And I'm not saying that these particular overseers are guilty of illegal activities but more of immoral activities. It has been an astounding thing for some to learn that their workers whom have supposedly "left all behind" are not leaving it all behind.....they take their joy wherever they can find a willing partner.....

The bible indicates that fornication is a big problem for church folks for it is fornication that is a sin against the ones who commit such.....so as Jesus said "Flee fornication"...Paul said "Let every man have a wife...." Simply because there is something about slipping around and fornicating that becomes the "action desired" more then the fornicating itself....it is the excitement of pulling the wool over other people's eyes as much as it is the sexual release......it soon becomes a vicious immoral life for some! Then they are found in the position of having to toss a peer out of the work due to abusive behavior toward children or other vulnerable persons!

[xna]

Goinforward,

Thanks for being brave.

Attachments:

[withlove]

Jul 25, 2014 16:45:39 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Jul 25, 2014 15:02:26 GMT -5 withlove said:

 
Amen! 

Does anyone think this is likely? Do you think there are more overseers willing to make a change than not? Or would it be more about a few most powerful overseers?

Withlove, I feel perhaps a big deterrent to overseers or senior workers doing anything different then what they've done in the past about fellow workers who have been reported to them of suspect behaviours against children and/or abusive behavior toward vulnerable adults comes down to one thing. For some of them, it would be likely very hard for them to call their peer upon the carpet since they themselves are not completely clean! And I'm not saying that these particular overseers are guilty of illegal activities but more of immoral activities. It has been an astounding thing for some to learn that their workers whom have supposedly "left all behind" are not leaving it all behind.....they take their joy wherever they can find a willing partner.....

The bible indicates that fornication is a big problem for church folks for it is fornication that is a sin against the ones who commit such.....so as Jesus said "Flee fornication"...Paul said "Let every man have a wife...." Simply because there is something about slipping around and fornicating that becomes the "action desired" more then the fornicating itself....it is the excitement of pulling the wool over other people's eyes as much as it is the sexual release......it soon becomes a vicious immoral life for some! Then they are found in the position of having to toss a peer out of the work due to abusive behavior toward children or other vulnerable persons!

Really sad. Keep people in danger so you look good.

Reasons they shouldn't be so scared for truth to come out: (1) It's not anywhere near as bad as abuse, and some F&W still support abusers, so even if they are kicked out of the work they will be taken care of and revered by some. (2) They will be allowed to speak in meetings, no doubt, b/c they are more special than friends who sin. (3) If it's really that common, then no one will stand out as that awful fornicating worker. (4) Even if no one knows anything about your mis-deeds, if you are an overseer there are plenty of people who are expecting more from you right now and generally not able to fully trust you, so you don't have a ton to lose. 

[tom]

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

[sharingtheriches]

Jul 26, 2014 4:05:04 GMT -5 tom said:

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

I feel the biggest deterrent of the friends going to the authorities over a worker or even another friend that has sexually or physically abused one of their children is that we have heard pretty near every conv. and a lot of spec. mtgs. not to take our brothers to court! And the scriptures are used to back that up. I think Paul's idea was why should a church member take another church member to the magistrate when the church members will be judging the world! So devout 2x2er's don't take the high road, but will take their problems to their senior workers for this simple reason....and we have to face it, if there should be a time a parent took accusations against a worker or elder to the authorities and the investigation doesn't pan out to show the truth about that accusation and nothing is forthcoming on that investigation...then that parent or friend that has taken it to the authorities will be talked to by the senior workers and it won't be a very pleasant talking-to!

[rational]

Jul 26, 2014 4:05:04 GMT -5 tom said:

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

Some of us have been advocating this for a long, long time.
The principle issue I have with organizations setting up guidelines/procedures/etc. to deal with abuse is that many times a point of contact (POC) is established. For example the guidelines state:

The POC is not to be considered the reporting officer for offense allegations; that is the role of civil authorities. Reporting allegations to the POC is not required. The POC is to assist and advise on reporting.
(emphasis added)

Given that the POC is a member of the group, saying they will advise on reporting creates an area where the advice may be in the interest of the group and not the victim.

[mdm]

Jul 26, 2014 4:05:04 GMT -5 tom said:

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

The following was shared on Wings site and illustrates one aspect of why reporting a worker may be hard for a professing person:

"The other day I was thinking about the comments some people make in regards to reporting crimes committed by workers/overseers or in regards to making people aware of those crimes so that they can be better able to protect themselves.

They say that they can't do anything against "God's anointed".

This might bother many victims and prevent them from speaking out but the thought came so clearly to me as if from God himself..."God didn't anoint that man to rape you, He didn't anoint any of the others to do the evil they have done.

I thanked God for that thought and the comfort that it brought to me."



Read more: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/284/gods-anointed?page=1&scrollTo=1670#ixzz38aEyVIyu

As long as the issue of CSA or any other kind of abuse is a taboo among F&W's and the workers are being exalted as "God's anointed," victims may fear loss of reputation and place, even salvation, as a result of reporting. This has a lot to do with overseers and what they preach or tell behind closed doors.

Another aspect of the problem is the statute of limitations, as victims often don't come forward with their report until the statute of limitations has past. How such situations are handled within the church has a lot to do with overseers also.

[mdm]

Jul 26, 2014 9:19:26 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Jul 26, 2014 4:05:04 GMT -5 tom said:

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

I feel the biggest deterrent of the friends going to the authorities over a worker or even another friend that has sexually or physically abused one of their children is that we have heard pretty near every conv. and a lot of spec. mtgs. not to take our brothers to court! And the scriptures are used to back that up. I think Paul's idea was why should a church member take another church member to the magistrate when the church members will be judging the world! So devout 2x2er's don't take the high road, but will take their problems to their senior workers for this simple reason....and we have to face it, if there should be a time a parent took accusations against a worker or elder to the authorities and the investigation doesn't pan out to show the truth about that accusation and nothing is forthcoming on that investigation...then that parent or friend that has taken it to the authorities will be talked to by the senior workers and it won't be a very pleasant talking-to!

Exactely. You and I would report abuse, but those who have been indoctrinated to not report a brother, especially a worker, would first go to an overseer... who might then tell them to just forgive. You have to change the culture in the church first. That's why guidelines are necessary - to change the culture and open up the subject. And, I don't mean guidelines that are given only to the workers, but are kept secret from the Friends. Everybody has to be involved and informed, and overseers need to be accountable to the flock whom they say they are serving.

[snow]

Jul 26, 2014 9:25:09 GMT -5 rational said:

Jul 26, 2014 4:05:04 GMT -5 tom said:

All these problems of covering up could be avoided if EVERYONE who had knowledge of someone being involved in CSA/sexual assult/abuse went directly to the police. The guilty would be dealt with by the courts and there could be no cover up. The people who go to the workers expecting them to sort it out are just as much to blame as the workers who do nothing. If a teacher sexually abused your child you wouldnt expect the headmaster to sort the problem, you would go to the police. Why is this even anything to do with the overseers??
A person found guilty of CSA and jailed ( as they usually are) can hardly remain in the work!

Some of us have been advocating this for a long, long time.
The principle issue I have with organizations setting up guidelines/procedures/etc. to deal with abuse is that many times a point of contact (POC) is established. For example the guidelines state:

The POC is not to be considered the reporting officer for offense allegations; that is the role of civil authorities. Reporting allegations to the POC is not required. The POC is to assist and advise on reporting.
(emphasis added)

Given that the POC is a member of the group, saying they will advise on reporting creates an area where the advice may be in the interest of the group and not the victim.

The only time I think that groups can be of assistance is in watching out for others children if the parent is not there. If something happens report it to authorities. I think that we all have a responsibility to report any suspicion of CSA whether we are a parent or part of a group. If every one reported CSA, like Tom suggested, there would be no cover up by the overseers because it would be out of their hands. It should never have been in their hands to start with. STR stated it was taught at convention to not take your brother to court, and this is true. I remember hearing it too. I think this is likely the reason why they don't report to authorities and take it to a worker. Doesn't make it right. You can't complain that there is cover up and nothing being done, if you don't do anything about it yourself.

[fixit]

Jul 26, 2014 10:57:50 GMT -5 snow said:

The only time I think that groups can be of assistance is in watching out for others children if the parent is not there.

As I've said before, most parents would move mountains to protect their children from CSA.

Many parents are heart-broken that they've failed to protect their children adequately.

However, sometimes parents themselves can be a big part of the problem.

Parents can by their neglect or naivety be enablers of CSA or cover up for abuse.

A parent can even be an abuser.

The protection of children is everyone's responsibility.