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Post by Rob O on May 26, 2006 5:59:23 GMT -5
1) I'm sure you believe that. Why not try polling current members on this board?
2) How long have you been in the group?
3) How does this passage fit into your theology?
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7, ESV)
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Post by prue on May 26, 2006 6:05:44 GMT -5
I don't think polling would do because the results would be skewed. Folks like me on this board are atypical, and not strictly representitive of the church. (Church folks generally don't read these boards.) Bit like doing a poll at a union rally about our PM, John Howard.
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Post by Rob O on May 26, 2006 6:07:53 GMT -5
How long have you been in the group?
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Post by prue on May 26, 2006 6:14:58 GMT -5
Hi Rob, you asked "How long have you been in the group?" Sorry, I didn't catch that question earlier. You say you were in my faith for 23 years - I have been in it for a lot less than that.
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Post by Rob O on May 26, 2006 6:15:40 GMT -5
How long?
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Post by prue on May 26, 2006 6:30:53 GMT -5
Rob. Some people can put their entire testamony on this board. I would never feel comfortable doing anything like that. I even found it difficult to put my own name on this board, let alone my personal details
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Post by Rob O on May 26, 2006 6:38:20 GMT -5
Well, I can understand and appreciate that. I must admit to being puzzled as to how asking how long you've been in the group constitutes a request for personal detail. The reason I ask is that I question the depth of your knowledge of the group you belong to. As I said, I was in it for 23 years, had a brother in the work and knew many workers personally. I know quite well that the consensus you refer to does not exist except in the common elements of the form of ministry and the rejection of dedicated church buildings. Everything else is up for grabs. On a second level, I will also add that there is a fairly widespread rejection in Australia of the deity of Christ and the deity of the Holy Spirit along with a fundamental lack of understanding about the gospel and what Christ has achieved. Acceptance of these fundamental truths of scripture appears to exist in the group in other parts of the world.
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Post by prue on May 26, 2006 6:43:29 GMT -5
Rob. I keep missing bits of things here. You quoted
"But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:4-7, ESV)
Paul used the word "works" in two distinct Pauline ways - first as Mosaic Law, second as good deeds. I think here he was using the latter (but we can't be sure as he mixed them) and he meant that if we were to stand before God on the worth of our own deeds then we won't have a leg to stand on, so to speak. In my faith we don't believe that any deed will save us other than the deeds of hearing, obeying and following. God gives us grace when we are willing to do His will. And, note that word "hope." We hope, not boast, of salvation. If I fail to obey God's will I will not have his grace, and I will have no basis in hope of salvation.
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Post by Rob O on May 26, 2006 7:15:32 GMT -5
Prue,
First, thanks for replying.
I'm grouping these comments together because they are both addressed by Paul in the very context of the passage at hand. This letter was written to Titus who was sorting out the Cretan churches. "Work" in this letter is not used in the Mosaic sense. Directly prior to this passage Paul commented:
"(A) Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. (B) For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another." (Titus 3:1-3, ESV)
Section A references the "good works" that Paul is referring to. Note that "obedience" is in this list. Section B references the opposite list. Note that "disobedience" is in this list.
Paul then goes on to say that God "saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy". Works of righteousness (all good deeds including obedience) are specifically excluded from the means by which God saves.
Secondly, "hope" is not the wishful desire of the English definition of the word. Biblical hope is a confident expectation, fully anticipating a particular end.
Then I pity you, because you have set yourself an impossible task which is flatly repudiated by Paul. Obedience is a result and function of salvation, not vice-versa.
"What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness," (Romans 4:1-5, ESV)
This passage was considered so scandalous by one of the early Mormon leaders that he changed it......because he could not fathom or believe that God justifies the ungodly!
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. " (Ephesians 2:8-10, ESV)
True faith, which is only possible through grace, results in justification and works of righteousness follow as naturally as night follows day.
You keep saying this, but can you provide a single scripture reference to support this statement?
In contrast, I will state that it is impossible for the unsaved to obey God in a way that pleases Him and that it is impossible for anyone to obey in such a way that they merit salvation by virtue of their obedience. The fact is that the ungraced cannot please God....
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (Ephesians 2:1-3, ESV)
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:7-8, ESV)
Prue, I once stood exactly where you stand. When you grasp the truth of the gospel you too will look back aghast at how you could ever have believed as you did.
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Post by look on May 26, 2006 9:20:17 GMT -5
I don't think polling would do because the results would be skewed. Folks like me on this board are atypical, and not strictly representitive of the church. (Church folks generally don't read these boards.) Bit like doing a poll at a union rally about our PM, John Howard. Look at the where are you from thread. Seems many frequent this board. They just don't register.
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Post by prue on May 26, 2006 23:42:17 GMT -5
Hi Rob. This is a major issue, and goes to the core of many ex's beliefs. I personally don't think a lot of ex's started out with such beliefs, but those on the internet develop a confirmational bias about them. I wil re-write my Saved By Grace Only section of my site.
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Post by Rob O on May 27, 2006 0:12:49 GMT -5
Prue,
That will be intriguing. Either one believes as the bible teaches that obedience is a function of salvation, or one believes that obedience causes salvation, a view the scriptures categorically reject.
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Post by Zorro on May 27, 2006 0:49:40 GMT -5
I personally don't think a lot of ex's started out with such beliefs, but those on the internet develop a confirmational bias about them.
I know of at least 50 exes that would disagree with this premise.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 27, 2006 4:20:06 GMT -5
Beliefs in the workers' church can vary from person to person. Some are:
- Jesus is God vesus Jesus on earth was a man who denied his own self for his salvation and the salvation of others.
- At best only half the people in the church will be saved versus salvation does exist outside the church.
- Remarriage after divorce is always a sin of adultery excpet after death of spouse versus remarriage after divorce is okay even without death of spouse under the right circumstances.
- Adherance to the rules/standard of appearance mut be upheld at all times versus adherance must be done in meeting and gathering as to not offend anyone and with own individual choices out of meetings and gatherings. One example: The woman's hair must always be worn up at all times of prayer versus during private prayer the state - either up or down - of the woman's hair is of little importance.
- The workers' ministry is the only ministry approved by God versus there is no right ministry form or minister, but there is a true message and the true message is also preached and accepted outside the church.
- Meeting in the home is the way of God , but only accpetable to God under the workers' ministry vesus the location of worship is of little, if any significance.
- We must obey all the that the workers say, especially those in our field and have no contention with them whatsoever vesus we must weigh everything the workers say against the Bible and be prepared to counter what they say if they are in error.
Along with the above is "do and do not whatever in order to keep the peace and keep my place."
This is not an all inclusive list.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2006 5:40:57 GMT -5
I personally don't think a lot of ex's started out with such beliefs, but those on the internet develop a confirmational bias about them.
I know of at least 50 exes that would disagree with this premise.
And I know at least 56 who WOULD agree with the premise.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 27, 2006 6:20:40 GMT -5
And I know at least 56 who WOULD agree with the premise. What 56? Former members? What premise?
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Post by Gene on May 27, 2006 8:27:28 GMT -5
I personally don't think a lot of ex's started out with such beliefs, but those on the internet develop a confirmational bias about them.I know of at least 50 exes that would disagree with this premise. Count me as one who disgrees with this premise.
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Post by prue on May 27, 2006 9:25:48 GMT -5
To Gene. Regards leaving my faith. Of those who left only one cited reading a book about Irvine, and that person had long been on the fringe of her church. The book didn't change who she was - it just gave her what she felt was a better reason. I know one who left because they were poached by another church; several who no longer believed in God; some who left because of their partners or families and a few who just loved too much in the world. Exes and 2x2's shouldn't stereotype each other.
p.s. is your friend in the photograph also on this board?
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Post by ilylo on May 27, 2006 9:31:19 GMT -5
Exes and 2x2's shouldn't stereotype each other. That's good advice, coming from someone who describes non-2x2 Christians as inferior to 2x2 Christians.
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Post by Cherie Kropp on May 27, 2006 10:38:43 GMT -5
PRUE wrote: "This is a major issue, and goes to the core of many ex's beliefs. I personally don't think a lot of ex's started out with such beliefs, but those on the internet develop a confirmational bias about them. I wil re-write my Saved By Grace Only section of my site." PRUE: Why not verify and confirm whether your feelings/opinions? To get a real accurate feel for what the ex-es believed before they left meetings, it would be a good idea to read 2 books: Reflections and Reflected Truth. Each chapter of these 2 books is written by a different person who left meetings. It is their “life story.” Their “Why we left meetings” …story. They discuss their beliefs…etc. Then rewrite you article. These books are published by Research & Information Systems. I can arrange to have copies sent to you at no charge. If you are agreeable, please contact me at: truth@earthlink.net Or you can order them yourself from: workersect.org/index.html
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Post by ozelaine on May 27, 2006 19:51:29 GMT -5
Prue,
I'm sure you would know of the many ex Friend's from Sydney who have left in the last 10 years. It would be good if you could ask them directly why, then you would be able to speak from a knowing postition instead of a guessing one.
I can give you their contact details if you like, please just send me a private message. I feel this would be very beneficial as your writings show a clear lack of understanding of those who you suggest are "apostates". You need to hear the truth so that what you write will at least come from an honest basis.
I speak from the heart and my own personal understanding of the Gospel. I try to just put down the facts and my thoughts clearly and carefully and I hope this is not confrontational.
Sincerely,
OzE.
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Post by prue on May 27, 2006 21:00:04 GMT -5
To OzElaine and Cherie. In my post I referred to those I personally know who have left the truth. I am sure all sorts of people leave for all sorts of reasons. And unfortunately, some join the truth for the wrong reasons (partners, instant society etc.) A person who says they left because of the doctrinal issue of being saved by grace only, for example, and writes about it, inevitably becomes a poster child to those will similar passions. Another person who leaves because they hate the very idea of God cannot be held up in the same way. Most of the people I know who have left are children who grew up in the truth and simply are not interested in continuing once they reach adulthood. I respect people who say they left because they are "not interested" or "its too hard" or even as one man put it, "the cigarettes have got me." What I find offensive is when someone justifies themselves over some issue, and when you address that issue to their own satisfaction, then find another issue.
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Post by ozelaine on May 27, 2006 22:09:39 GMT -5
Prue,
I would like to reply to your post since it was to me and Cherie.
I need no justification for leaving the F&W's. Written in the Bible are God's truths there for all of us to read and study. Knowing God is vital. I cannot justify myself, God's word does that perfectly. The Scriptures say that Christ will come with His mighty angels "...in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power" (2 Thess. 1:8,9). To know God is to obey the Gospel of God and to obey the Gospel of God one must know the Gospel of God and believe it is the only Gospel that saves.
I left because I couldn't fellowship with people who believed a different Gospel. I rejected the false once God saved me by the true. I make no apologies for believing the true Gospel, the one that scripture upholds from Genesis to Revelation.
I stand on the promises of God to those who are called to be His and through the faith that comes from God I believe and obey the true Gospel by which I am justified.
This is the Gospel I believe.
The true Gospel of God’s grace gives all the glory for salvation to God, leaving no room for a man to boast in anything he has done in order to get saved or stay saved. It is not a complicated message. It is not a message that is difficult to understand. It is a plain and simple message. Man is dead in sin and cannot come to God in and of himself (Matt. 19:25,26; Rom. 3:10,11; 5:12; Eph. 2:1,12); no man by nature understands God and therefore does not, and cannot, seek the true God; without God man has no hope.
This teaching is the launching pad for grace. It introduces people to grace and the fact that no part of salvation is conditioned on anything else but grace. Salvation is not by the will of man but the will of God according to His grace and mercy. God chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world, not based on anything they did or would do, but upon His will, wisdom and grace and according to His purpose (Eph. 1:3-6; 2 Tim. 1:9); salvation is according to the election of grace and not by the works of man (Rom. 11:5; Gal. 2:16)
Christ Jesus was sent to the earth to establish a perfect righteousness by obeying the law, and dying, as the Representative of, and a Substitute for, those people God had chosen and entrusted to Christ’s care (Jn. 10:27,28; 17:2,3; Eph. 5:25); their sins had to be atoned for and would be charged to Him and His Righteousness to them, thus making them wholly acceptable unto God (2 Cor. 5:21; Eph. 5:2); these people would all be taught of God and made willing in the day of His power to love and believe the same Gospel—GOD’S ONLY GOSPEL—and be saved, for this is the will of God and none of them will ever perish (Jn. 10:26-29).
This, in a nutshell, is the Gospel of God. Of course, there are several truths about Christ, such as His virgin birth and His resurrection and the fact that the Triune God is the Creator of all things, that must also be believed in.
Christianity is not primarily a lifestyle but a message.
Sincerely,
OzE.
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Post by So what on May 27, 2006 22:28:43 GMT -5
So whats the difference Ozzie, I thought that is what "the truth" is all about.
You should have stayed and listened more intently.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on May 27, 2006 23:01:55 GMT -5
So whats the difference Ozzie, I thought that is what "the truth" is all about. You should have stayed and listened more intently. Care to elaborate on a point or two that OzE wrote about the true gospel and how that agrees with the workers' gospel?
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Post by bluejay on May 27, 2006 23:30:56 GMT -5
Prue stated in part:
This is the attitude that I understand the least from professing people, my own family included.
I left meetings in my late teens because I just hadn't found a connection to God while attending. I'm sure some of my family thought I just found it "too hard" to follow the lifestyle of the f&w's. Or maybe they too thought my addiction at that time to cigarettes was my downfall. Whatever their belief, they were quite content to let me wander around in a spiritual darkness for years, and even raise children who were being taught nothing of God or the Bible. They imagined one day I'd come to my senses and return probably.
Everything was okay as long as I had left due to some short-coming on my part.
Fast forward through time .... and I find the web sites. After working my way through the info, reading my Bible, praying, and asking a million questions on forums such as these I believe God opened my eyes to His plan for me. And it did not involve returning to meetings.
As soon as I shared with professing family that I was reading my Bible, had become Christian, and was exploring various churches in my area the trouble began. It seemed they were okay for me to be atheist/agnostic, but not okay for me to have a relationship with God outside their fellowship.
The logic of this failed me. However I believe I now understand. As long as we're not in meetings due to our stupidity, unwillingness, addictions, etc. we're not against the f&w's. The minute we begin to attend a "worldly church" it means we have rejected their beliefs and understanding of God's plan.
So with all due respect prue, I too find it offensive when "us exes" are only given respect when we leave if the "reason" is one a professing person can agree with.
All I can do is obey God's voice to my heart. I know God can speak to anyone, anywhere, at any time. I don't look down on the f&w's, nor on Catholics or Mormons, even though I don't agree with all the beliefs associated with those churches.
I believe each group is filled with people who want nothing more than a relationship with God. I try to focus on, and find, mutual spiritual ground. This old world can be a tough place, and I take every opportunity I can to build on another's faith in the Living God.
Please don't close your heart and mind to those who leave.
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Post by ilylo on May 28, 2006 0:35:53 GMT -5
A person who says they left because. . . Some leave 2x2ism because they finally realize that 2x2 doctrine does not align with the Bible. Justifying themselves has nothing to do with it.
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Post by prue on May 28, 2006 1:40:30 GMT -5
HI BlueJay You said "The logic of this failed me. However I believe I now understand. As long as we're not in meetings due to our stupidity, unwillingness, addictions, etc. we're not against the f&w's. The minute we begin to attend a "worldly church" it means we have rejected their beliefs and understanding of God's plan."
The logic fails me too. From where I stand it is better to have a little religion than no religion. Religion can provide moral foundation, goals, purpose, civic mindedness etc.
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