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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 8:17:41 GMT -5
To 'Poor lost soul" You said 'it is hard for you to kick against the pris.' Whatever that means If you have something constructive, intelligent and explicit to say, please, don't be bashful, that is what this board is about.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2006 8:24:56 GMT -5
To reply, you wrote "Did Selah mention doctrine?" Selah said the churches, "... recognize Jesus as their leader and Master, and recognize the pastoral, teaching, evangelistic and prophetic gifts within the body of believers." This is doctrine as I see it. Jesus is 'leader and Master.' Only, he isn't, wasn't and never willl be with these apostate churches. To be a 'leader' means you follow, ie what he does, you do. His works are your works. To be a Master means you obey, ie his commandments. His rules are your rules. This is where the true uniqueness of Truth comes from. Different denominations have different structures. Many allow their adhering congregations to act quite independantly. I have that freedom - we agree to be bound to fundamental doctrine/missional agreement, but the local bodies are free, within propriety, to pursue Jesus mission in the way that the local body is led. It is not top down leadership. You are painting with a very broad brush. Have you been a part of any Christian denominations while an adult Prue? Karl
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Post by Poor lost soul on May 24, 2006 8:25:06 GMT -5
Like Saul, there is a Paul inside you. You just need Jesus to let him out. Once you let go of your religion and rely on Jesus alone, then you will be free.
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 8:32:26 GMT -5
As I said, please be specific about the issue bothering you.
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Post by poor poor on May 24, 2006 8:37:16 GMT -5
There's nothing bothering me. But you bother Jesus with your religiosity and legalism.
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Post by ozelaine on May 24, 2006 8:39:26 GMT -5
I'll be specific Prue, What according to your belief are the doctrines of the Gospel? Are you able to explain them in a clear precise way so that all who read here can understand? Maybe you could share in such a way as to be a "Phillip". There was only one Gospel given to the apostle Paul and only one which he ever preached and if anyone did not believe that one Gospel then they showed that their spiritual state was that of the damned (Gal. 1:6-9). Paul declared that it is by the Gospel that we are saved: "...I declare unto you the Gospel...by which also ye are saved..." (1 Cor.15:1,2). Many preachers mention the word ‘gospel’ in their sermons but seldom do they define what the Gospel actually is. If we cannot define, identify and distinguish what the Gospel is how then can we recognize what constitutes a false gospel? Obviously Paul was speaking to people who knew exactly what the Gospel was because Paul had preached it to them. To recognize the false one must know the true. Others say that the Gospel is simply Jesus Christ; we must go further than this and ask ourselves: Yes, but Who is Jesus Christ and what did He do and for whom did He do it? We must distinguish the True Christ from the counterfeits. What Gospel do the F&W's proclaim?
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 8:56:58 GMT -5
To OzElaine - wow, when I ask for specificity, I am asked to define something like what the gospel in its entirety is! And, on a five line reply window. The gospel, in my own humble opinion, is the good news that we, though we are condemned to death and damnation, can be redeemed because Jesus came to pay the price for our sin. In rising from the dead he said that we may rise also. What he brought is priceless, and we can never repay. But it is also costly in that a lot is asked of us if we are to have his grace.
What is false gospel? Also hard to define. Perhaps like pornography, you know it when you see it. False gospel preaches Christ, but seeks another way to enter eternity without following him.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2006 9:05:49 GMT -5
Prue: What he brought is priceless, and we can never repay. But it is also costly in that a lot is asked of us if we are to have his grace.
So then Jesus does not "give" salvation?
Karl
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:10:23 GMT -5
karl - yes, you cannot pay for what He brought. But, if you don't obey, you won't be given it. This is laid bare, page by page, almost verse by verse, in the New Testament.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2006 9:12:06 GMT -5
So then salvation is not given- it is available but must be earned?
Karl
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:23:01 GMT -5
There is a strong difference between "earning" and "obeying" here. This is deliberately misrepresented in the Christian world.
Earning implies the wrong thing - that we have paid our own way. Obeying means we have done the little Christ of us.
Jesus said clearly, "Why call me Lord Lord and don't do the things I ask of you?"
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:24:37 GMT -5
Why do I keep making typos here... I meant "Obeying means we have done the little Christ ASKED of us."
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Post by Rob O on May 24, 2006 9:27:09 GMT -5
Prue,
Do you think it is possible for one to obey Christ if they are not saved already?
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Post by happy on May 24, 2006 9:36:10 GMT -5
"Follow Jesus".....that phrase has raised a question mark for a long time, in my mind.
If we follow him, we'll never marry, by age 12 we'll be about the business of adults, we'll choose disciples, etc. etc. and we'll expect to become a savior at the time of our death by crucifixion. Very arrogant. Just like claiming Christ as our elder brother.
I agree that if we are saved, we abide by the commandments of God...but only thru his power. It isn't something we do to GET saved.
Throwing in my 2 cents.
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Post by amazed on May 24, 2006 9:37:07 GMT -5
The "vulgar" church that I attend has no preacher and answers to no one outside of our group. We know what the Gospel is. I love our WONDERFUL little church and have never been happier and never truly obeyed the Gospel before. Never heard the true Gospel preached before.
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:38:08 GMT -5
Hi Rob Still don't know how to use this board correctly. You asked if one can obey Christ if they are not of Christ. In the bible I notice that things are never black and white, but are presented in degrees. Many people obey Christ but don't love Christ. They will often turn Christ's commandments into rigid laws, for example, and obey these laws.
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Post by happy on May 24, 2006 9:39:36 GMT -5
Do you readily share the gospel/Jesus?? Isn't that answering to someone outside of the group??
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Post by Rob O on May 24, 2006 9:44:01 GMT -5
Prue,
I guess we can play semantics all night but that will get nowhere. In your understanding, what is the order of salvation?
Example:
1. Faith 2. Obedience 3. Justification
Or another example:
1. Predestination 2. Calling 3. Faith 4. Justification 5. Obedience.
These are just examples. How would you order the elements of salvation?
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:44:52 GMT -5
To happy - you are mocking the bible. The first I heard this "argument" was someone saying, "Why don't you dress like him?" You miss the point of his example, deliberately and entirely. What we follow are the timeless aspects of his example, not his type of dress, his role as the Messiah, being a Jew, riding donkeys etc We are all adults. I don't need not say this.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2006 9:50:58 GMT -5
There is a strong difference between "earning" and "obeying" here. This is deliberately misrepresented in the Christian world. Earning implies the wrong thing - that we have paid our own way. Obeying means we have done the little Christ of us. Jesus said clearly, "Why call me Lord Lord and don't do the things I ask of you?" So if "we" don't do the things that Christ hyas asked of us- is salvation taken from us, or is the opportunity for salvation taken? Karl
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:53:35 GMT -5
Yes Rob, it is getting late here in Australia (nearly 1am)
My mind is shutting down - I would suppose the order I understand is :
a) hear b) obey
But then, there was no order to the thief on the cross, nor for those who never have opportunity to hear the gospel in their life time. There is a lot of semantics, word play and creeds that come into this kind of stuff. Can't answer this one at this stage of the night.
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Post by Rob O on May 24, 2006 9:56:48 GMT -5
I need to know if I'm understanding you correctly. Is this a fair assessment of your view?
1. Hear 2. Obey Christ/Love Christ/trust Christ 3. Maybe saved but won't know for sure until judgement day
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 9:57:08 GMT -5
karl, or is it lacpastor (why that name?) You asked "So if "we" don't do the things that Christ has asked of us- is salvation taken from us, or is the opportunity for salvation taken?"
I guess that is a semantics issue Karl. I am not sure. Are you a pastor?
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 10:07:44 GMT -5
Rob (yawn...zzzz) I don't know the real order of things. Some people found themselves in God's way through searching, others were found by Christ who never knew they had any religious inclinations. Strange, really. But this business of knowing the end has hairs on it. Paul spoke of the "strong hope" of salvation. There are some big 'ifs' in salvation, and I think he used that word himself. I recall a general in the Peloponesian wars who beseiged a city and told the king that if he seized his city he would kill the men, rape the women, seize the goods etc. The king sent a reply to the astonished general, it simply said, "IF." Remember, IF is the biggest word.
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Post by Rob O on May 24, 2006 10:16:26 GMT -5
OK. I accept you are tired. I'm trying to understand your view, but it's very difficult because you don't seem to commit to anything except vague generalities and sweeping condemnations of other churches. Can I hope for clearer, reasoned answers when you are not tired?
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This very interesting
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Post by This very interesting on May 24, 2006 10:16:28 GMT -5
Prue is giving us a very, very interesting demonstration. She can go down the rabbit track of the form and tradition of the method;ie the 2x2 ministry, with the expertise of an overseer. But when it comes the actual issues of salvation, she's totally lost. Perfect example of the whole system. Keep it up Prue, you're making the case against your system better than we ever could.
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Post by ilylo on May 24, 2006 10:30:43 GMT -5
Prue,
Is it possible for a Christian who does not attend 2x2 meetings to receive salvation?
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Post by prue on May 24, 2006 10:31:11 GMT -5
Rob. I don't want to condem other churches. I am afraid of a world where there are no more churches - what then for us all? And, I am sorry, but you will find the New Testament full of evasions, generalities, vagueness, ambiguity etc.. Do you work? What time do you go to bed?
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