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Post by magpie on Dec 10, 2014 5:09:25 GMT -5
What is wrong with a campaign to protect those vulnerable to a dangerous situation? If you dont think it is necessary just say but in a rational ( NOT Rationale) debate put clearly your firm,studied,strong,balanced,biblical views. I listen,all views must be listened to. Friends workers and ex board and Truth Ministry board are studied by Royal Commission Researchers as with other organisations listed before them,this gives them strength to a clear picture of diversity of resolve or white wash efforts.Be patient still up to 2x years before "Secret Sects" turn before panel.
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Post by mdm on Dec 10, 2014 9:47:57 GMT -5
I don't know how sexual abuse of any kind statistically relates to enforced celibacy. I do know, however, that celibacy and "unnatural way of life" are used by some in the fellowship to excuse immorality. These same people also excuse sexual abuse as consensual immorality - refuse to see abuse for what it is.
Also, there is ignorance of what constitutes sexual abuse and immorality on the part of at least some top level workers. I don't know whether the reason for this is "unnatural way of life," naivety or dishonesty.
It does seem that adherence to enforced celibacy (if celibacy isn't really one's gift) would lead to chronic dishonesty with oneself and consequently with others. There is nothing wrong with celibacy per se. The problem is in lack of honesty and in distinguishing God's will from man's traditions. If one wants to be lead by God and receive His help, they cannot walk in front or take the path of human traditions. Anything put forth as a rule by man and not by God is bound to lead us astray. In that sense, I agree with Magpie that enforced celibacy could be detrimental and even be the cause of acceptance of sexual immorality and consequently abuse.
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 10:19:49 GMT -5
Wally & Rationale,,"NEVER ALL?" many go into priesthood and Irvinism type of situations believing they can do something for God,with RCCs it is often because of justice and welfare. NO not all BUT it is and proven a place to try and avoid or hide for those who feel they would like to be taken away from their sexual problems or fears,quite genuine in trying/hoping to avoid their unatural cravings,many it is hoped that their vows and promises before God keeps them strong and clean. But paedophelia is a mental disorder,takes a lot of support psychiatric,medical,counsilling to control often sadly to no avail As 2x2s have no internal counsilling/pastoring support many will just drop their early desire to refrain from their overiding inherent problem,and homosexuallity/lesbianism is NOT paedophilia,that is genetic. You seem to be dismissing the idea that there can be homosexual pedophiles. You are also clinging to the idea that child molesters are more prevalent in the F&W or in the RCC than they are in the general population. As far as I know there is no research to support this claim. If that were the case, how can you explain the fact that more than 2/ 3 of child molesters are married? Many are religious. Very few are pedophiles. I hope you have a good life. I also hope that instead of warning people about dangers caused by an "unatural[SIC] ministry" you can do some research and discover the facts about the probem you are trying to address. Warning people by using 'facts' that are not true does little good.No, but then neither did you. That is one of the problems with child abuse - the abusers are never the people you think they will be. You, for example, believe that the tendency of abuse comes from a celibate lifestyle. By focusing your warnings on those individuals you may well be enabling the much larger group of child abusers, married men, to prey on children while pointing suspicion at celibate individuals. As far as dealing with the victims, everyone processes events in their lives differently. It has been my experience that there are few clues that will indicate how any one individual will react or what the best course of action to take would be. That is something that the individual, perhaps with some external help, needs to decide and embrace for themselves. The fear sometimes is that a victim will become a "professional victim" and allow the unfortunate circumstances to define them rather than taking the steps, sometimes difficult, that will being them peace. |
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 10:30:31 GMT -5
What is wrong with a campaign to protect those vulnerable to a dangerous situation? If your campaign is based on erroneous facts it can certainly cause as much harm, perhaps even more, than good.Child abuse is not a biblical/spiritual issue. It is a criminal issue. There is no balance - it is a crime against children. There is little in the bible to support the protection of children other than the rules given should you choose to sell your daughter, the fact that your children should be stoned to death if they do not obey their parents, and the fact that if god asks, a parent should be willing to murder his child(ren). The bible is not the guide to be followed regarding the protection of children against child abuse. People protect children from abuse. Parents protect children from abuse. And the sooner they start treating abuse as the crime that it is and report it to the authorities before providing warning to the criminals that caused the abuse the sooner the abusers will be removed from society. |
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 10:41:26 GMT -5
I don't know how sexual abuse of any kind statistically relates to enforced celibacy. Poorly. The statistics show that 77% of child molesters are married. A large percentage of those remaining are in in their late teens early twenties who are unmarried but not in a forced celibacy.On the non-criminal side, it is a convenient excuse for normal sexual behavior. As far as sexual assault, that is also normal. Society calls it criminal as well. Sexual assault is criminal. Some would say that when a person has sex with a subordinate that it cannot be consensual. I would disagree in that it certainly can be consensual but just because the 'victim' does not cry "rape" or report the event does not mean that it was consensual. To me this is an issue between the individual and his/her god. Or the individual's moral compass. |
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Post by magpie on Dec 10, 2014 16:28:19 GMT -5
AH,Rationale'. Of course paedophile homosexuals are proberable and known. Also the wider population abuse problems?. They before God most likely have not made a vow of serving Him in a chaste celibate way,that is the sin here of the Priest/Workers breaking into criminal CSA,after a vow of chastity.This an issue betwee "God,others of the ministries,the victims and families and the crime laws. Answer that with N/T scripture,please.
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 17:37:00 GMT -5
AH,Rationale'. Of course paedophile homosexuals are proberable and known. Also the wider population abuse problems?. They before God most likely have not made a vow of serving Him in a chaste celibate way,that is the sin here of the Priest/Workers breaking into criminal CSA,after a vow of chastity.This an issue betwee "God,others of the ministries,the victims and families and the crime laws. Answer that with N/T scripture,please. For me, answering with biblical scripture would be as meaningful as answering from Tolstoy's War and Peace. Child abuse is a criminal issue. If you have faith in some paranormal being then by all means, once the incident had been reported to those who deal with criminal activity, supplicate, pray, petition, etc. that all will be made right, or whatever you think is proper. But realize that history has shown that without the report to the authorities things are not going to get better. You seem to have faith that god is somehow the solution in spite of all evidence to the contrary. While I admire people's faith in their personal paranormal being I also feel that taking the appropriate, proven steps to reduce child abuse should be given top billing. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 18:50:50 GMT -5
Making a noise is not the answer, only makes things worse. We have to depend on the Authorities, Royal Commissions, etc, and this work takes time and we need patience. Parents of course have the prime responsibility for the safety of their children.
99% of people are good and decent, only small percentage do the wrong thing. This will never change no matter what systems are in place. It is human failure, and started when Cain murdered Able. Sadly this problem will always be there,but don't punish the 99% because of it. Let the Law deal with it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 10, 2014 21:30:34 GMT -5
Snow, you miss the point I have been trying to make. Just because of the transgressions of a few, you don't lash out at everybody. Magpie several times posted a list of Victorian Workers who were well known to me, and they were good and decent people. Thank God that Admin had the good sense to remove those posts. Many of those Workers are dead, and not able to defend their reputation. I find it very hurtful and offensive when good people are falsly accused. We all have bad experiences in life, I have had a few, but to help others and ourselves, we have to suck it up. This is your issue Redback "Magpie several times posted a list of Victorian Workers who were well known to me, and they were good and decent people." So because you know them & you feel they are decent people does that mean they are PERFECT ? You feel its offensive for people to be falsly accused, so what about the children that have been abused don't they matter ? A lot of people still think EB & CC are wonderful people & have done no wrong ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 10, 2014 21:39:24 GMT -5
Making a noise is not the answer, only makes things worse. We have to depend on the Authorities, Royal Commissions, etc, and this work takes time and we need patience. Parents of course have the prime responsibility for the safety of their children. 99% of people are good and decent, only small percentage do the wrong thing. This will never change no matter what systems are in place. It is human failure, and started when Cain murdered Able. Sadly this problem will always be there,but don't punish the 99% because of it. Let the Law deal with it. It will never change while people keep covering up for people who in their opinion are "decent people". As to 99% being decent amongst the F&W .... well with the current amount of CSA coming out not just in Victoria but the rest of Australia & the World, I would have to disagree. Look at what was happening in NSW in the 70's (That was covered up) and all the people being effected now. |
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Post by magpie on Dec 10, 2014 22:00:24 GMT -5
Roselyn T, You are right,why do we have folk trying to lessen the impact on victims,by trying to deduct the mentally disordered sex deviants who mingle amongst genuine honerable people who feel they are serving God in the,exclusive, way Irvine laid out. We sadly were and writtings since show we as children and teens could say nothing,fearing family and worker reprocussions if we even hinted at what the filthy dregs of humanity was putting us through. It appears feelings for todays children are no better by some of the pro-worker comments. CCx12,EBx1 convicted=,12 more victims known.Others in this State and worldwide putting worker worship above all things decent.
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Post by mdm on Dec 10, 2014 22:11:49 GMT -5
Making a noise is not the answer, only makes things worse. We have to depend on the Authorities, Royal Commissions, etc, and this work takes time and we need patience. Parents of course have the prime responsibility for the safety of their children. 99% of people are good and decent, only small percentage do the wrong thing. This will never change no matter what systems are in place. It is human failure, and started when Cain murdered Able. Sadly this problem will always be there,but don't punish the 99% because of it. Let the Law deal with it. Making a noise is what got a CSA offender remove from the work in the eastern US several years ago. Only it took more than one person making noise. One person at a time had no effect. Also, Australia doesn't have statute of limitations, but other places may, and something still has to be done within the church even when the offense is not reportable. What do you think the church should do when abuse cannot be reported any more due to a statute of limitations or because the offender doesn't live in the country where offense took place any more? Also, how do you explain that Steve Schultz has lost his place in the work over expressing concerns about ministry's handling of CSA issues and that Graham Thompson was criticized for saying the response of the ministry in Victoria re CSA was "inadequate"? Or that the 99% of the people who are good and decent have remained quiet? What does it say about the ministry and fellowship? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 22:27:00 GMT -5
maja, we only ever hear the noise, true facts are never known. That is why so much gets invented.
The only way you may get true facts is if the matter goes to Court.
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 22:54:17 GMT -5
Making a noise is what got a CSA offender remove from the work in the eastern US several years ago. Only it took more than one person making noise. One person at a time had no effect. I thought it was the report to the authorities. It only takes one person to make the charge. Also, Australia doesn't have statute of limitations, but other places may, and something still has to be done within the church even when the offense is not reportable.[/quote]With no statute of limitation the victims can report the criminal if they wish. Why do you think they are not reporting? As far as the non-criminal activity - that is an issue that the church needs to handle.Legally, nothing. Of course, how is it determined that the accused is guilty? For me, it raises many questions about the value of religion. This is not just a F&W issue. |
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Post by rational on Dec 10, 2014 23:02:56 GMT -5
It will never change while people keep covering up for people who in their opinion are "decent people". As to 99% being decent amongst the F&W .... well with the current amount of CSA coming out not just in Victoria but the rest of Australia & the World, I would have to disagree. It seems you may have information that has not been made publicly available. When you speak of the amount of CSA cases - exactly how many are there that you are aware of? Does the fact of whether it was reported or not by the victims, their families, or anyone else that knew change the effect the abuse had on the victims? How CSA was addressed 40+ years ago has little to do with how CSA is addressed today. |
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Post by mdm on Dec 10, 2014 23:07:49 GMT -5
maja, we only ever hear the noise, true facts are never known. That is why so much gets invented. The only way you may get true facts is if the matter goes to Court. How likely is it that charges will be pressed if the ministry is not taking steps to undo the established belief that CSA shouldn't be reported and that it should be handled within the church? Did those who pressed charges against CC and EB receive the support of the ministry and church in doing so? Do all the F&W's feel that it is "safe" and acceptable to report offenses and press charges against those in the fellowship, even the workers? And, what about the cases that are not reportable? What should the church do about them? And what about SS and GT? Why was it not safe for them to speak about CSA issues and disagree with the way the ministry is handling them? Why is the church not interested in them and what they had to say? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 23:11:57 GMT -5
We can't stop the noise.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 23:22:25 GMT -5
If anybody has a crime committed against them, they should report it to the Police. That is how the system works. It is their call, nobody elses.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 23:37:23 GMT -5
This is your issue Redback "Magpie several times posted a list of Victorian Workers who were well known to me, and they were good and decent people." So because you know them & you feel they are decent people does that mean they are PERFECT ?
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Never said they were perfect. There has been only one perfect person on earth, and they nailed him to a cross. I am sure those Workers did not want that to happen to them.
Think I knew them better than magpie. Spent a lot of time living and working with them at preps. Never ever saw him there. I rest my case.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 11, 2014 2:18:54 GMT -5
This is your issue Redback "Magpie several times posted a list of Victorian Workers who were well known to me, and they were good and decent people." So because you know them & you feel they are decent people does that mean they are PERFECT ? Never said they were perfect. There has been only one perfect person on earth, and they nailed him to a cross. I am sure those Workers did not want that to happen to them. Think I knew them better than magpie. Spent a lot of time living and working with them at preps. Never ever saw him there. I rest my case.[/quote] So because YOU think you knew him better than magpie & spent time living & working with him at preps you believe he is not capable of doing any wrong ! Wow Redback ! A lot of people thought they knew EB & CC me included ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 11, 2014 2:21:38 GMT -5
If anybody has a crime committed against them, they should report it to the Police. That is how the system works. It is their call, nobody elses. Redback that is how the system is suppose to work ! I suppose you are going to say that the parents of children that have been abused that have meetings in their homes have never been told to just be quiet about it unless they want to lose the meeting ........ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 2:34:28 GMT -5
Roselyn, you are so confused. EB and CC were much younger, and came after my time. I have already said they have been dealt with by law. End of story.
You are not able to read the list that magpie made, as Admin wisely took it down. They were older Workers of my era. Some of them Sister Workers whom I knew well. They were wonderful, gracious Ladies, and I take offence to see their names degraded. Have some respect,they are now dead.
Roselyn, with respect I say unless you know the facts, don't talk about it. I was there, you weren't.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 11, 2014 3:15:11 GMT -5
Roselyn, you are so confused. EB and CC were much younger, and came after my time. I have already said they have been dealt with by law. End of story. You are not able to read the list that magpie made, as Admin wisely took it down. They were older Workers of my era. Some of them Sister Workers whom I knew well. They were wonderful, gracious Ladies, and I take offence to see their names degraded. Have some respect,they are now dead. Roselyn, with respect I say unless you know the facts, don't talk about it. I was there, you weren't. Redback I am aware that EB & CC are much younger ! I am also aware of older workers that were moved from Vic to Qld & other places years ago and that once again another one is in Qld from Vic. I may not be as old as you Redback but I am well aware of the cover-ups that have happened. The idea that you think someone is a decent person does not make them perfect. You seem to be more concerned about the workers than the children that have been abused. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2014 3:30:07 GMT -5
Roselyn, I give up, you just don't get it.
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Post by Roselyn T on Dec 11, 2014 5:17:09 GMT -5
Roselyn, I give up, you just don't get it. Redback, what is it you think that "I just don't get" ? |
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Post by rational on Dec 11, 2014 10:34:00 GMT -5
Redback that is how the system is suppose to work ! I suppose you are going to say that the parents of children that have been abused that have meetings in their homes have never been told to just be quiet about it unless they want to lose the meeting ........ This is walking a thin line. The ultimate job of parents is to protect/care for their children. If the crime is reported first there is no opportunity for the reporters to be influenced to not report Unfortunately some believe that examples in the bible, like Abraham being willing to murder his son because "god said", means that parents today are willing to sacrifice their children, metaphorically, to the wishes of others. This is just one of the reasons why people are advised to report directly to the authorities before anything else. How can you change this behavior? How can you change the behavior of sheep who follow without thinking? This is not just a F&W issue. It was/is the same problem that the RCC faces. Some people cannot believe that the anointed servants of god can do wrong. And when this is one of the basic pillars of many religious there is little hope for change. This is not to say that people should give up but there needs to be the understanding that criminal acts need to be dealt with outside of the church. |
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Post by rational on Dec 11, 2014 10:44:11 GMT -5
Roselyn, I give up, you just don't get it. I understand where you are coming from. However, have you ever worked with either the offenders or the victims of these crimes? The reason why children are abused, many times in their own homes, is because no one can believe that the offenders would ever abuse a child. And for older victims, they too are surprised when they realize what is/has happened. You may well be best friends and respect the very person who is abusing your children. I worked and socialized for years with a prominent businessman who has his name on plaques in several museums, including the local children's museum. As it turned out he had been abusing his children other children for years, the entire time I knew him. Child abusers are very successful because they are often very good at what they do - deceive others. But I agree - people should not be publicly accused. If there is enough evidence to accuse them they should be reported to the authorities. |
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Post by mdm on Dec 11, 2014 12:03:09 GMT -5
Roselyn, you are so confused. EB and CC were much younger, and came after my time. I have already said they have been dealt with by law. End of story. You are not able to read the list that magpie made, as Admin wisely took it down. They were older Workers of my era. Some of them Sister Workers whom I knew well. They were wonderful, gracious Ladies, and I take offence to see their names degraded. Have some respect,they are now dead. Roselyn, with respect I say unless you know the facts, don't talk about it. I was there, you weren't. EB and CC were dealt with only because somebody acted against the will of the ministry and reported them. The reason why CSA issues are discussed on TMB is not that somebody has committed these offenses, but that the ministry has discouraged reporting and even threatened those who would have reported and have allowed the offenders to remain in the fellowship/ministry. This is what has to change in orders for rumors to end. |
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