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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 29, 2013 14:11:29 GMT -5
All of this discussion is for the most part true, but it's like remodeling the kitchen of a house from across the street. In order to be effective you have to be in the house. Since we are discussing remodeling a belief system, we are not re-modeling a private home. We are re-modeling a public building. As such, sure - the employees and current customers who're still in the public building have good opinions as to the changes. However, since parts of the public building has collapsed on the heads of past customers, the re-modeling should also include safety lessons that we've learned from the past harm. It's not just about those who are still stepping around the wreckage. True, but what if it's not your building? |
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2013 14:45:52 GMT -5
Physical abuse 40-50 was not uncommon but other than corporal punishment, it was probably well under the average. Corporal punishment would have been well over the average. I seem to recall as much corporal punishment going on at school as there was at home. I think the worst child abuse I experienced growing up was from bullying at school. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 14:50:40 GMT -5
Rational keeps harping on all the broken ribs and smashed faces which make up a big part of the 90% of the abuse but no one is coming forward.....or they just don't exist to any extent. The latter is more likely to be true. I have never said that broken bones or smashed faces make up a big part of the 90% of non-sexual abuse. Neglect is by far the largest part and the broken bones and smashed faces occur at a much lower frequency. But it is a disservice to victims to say that physical abuse does not cause long term problems just as sexual abuse does. It is also a disservice to victims of high level abuse such as repeated sexual abuse to be compared with victims of low level abuse such as being sent to their room with no supper. My personal view is that actual CSA criminal events are becoming less prevalent and I have reasons for saying that. However, the July 20th,2013 edition of The Economist briefing on crime reports this: "Not all crime is falling. Sexual offences, which often go unrecorded, may be becoming more or less common." So I am not about to declare that the war against sexual crimes against children is over yet. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2013 14:54:21 GMT -5
CSA victims/survivors I know would much rather have suffered broken bones and gashing wounds than CSA. The body heals over time.
Those who are comparing CSA with other abuse still have a lot to learn about CSA.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 15:04:51 GMT -5
I seem to recall as much corporal punishment going on at school as there was at home. I think the worst child abuse I experienced growing up was from bullying at school. From when I was growing up, I knew lots of kids who didn't get whupped at home but very few F&W kids escaped it. The reasons it was almost 100% in the F&Ws is that it was not only acceptable in society but it was also specifically taught by the workers. I think F&W parents were at one time made to feel guilty if they didn't whup their kids. In fact, I noticed the last gasp of that sort of thing when I was bringing up our first child 25 years ago. Just a few years later when we had our second, that stigma for not whupping your kids was almost entirely gone. I even noticed in my own family with certain members thinking we were "too easy" on our kids.....I even fretted about it a bit but in retrospect, I wouldn't change much based on the results. As far as school goes, corporal punishment, from my observations when growing up, was reserved only for the most extreme behaviours. The standard was easier on kids at school than it was at home. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 15:14:56 GMT -5
CD wrote: Caution is good, but when there are very few reports of physical abuse and a significant number of reports of CSA, the only logical explanation is that physical abuse is not only small, but far lower than the general population. There are a huge number of exes out there today who would have no inhibition about speaking out about physical abuse if they had experienced it and felt is was a widespread problem among F&Ws. It think it is quite fair to have confidence that few reports = few incidents.
I do not share your confidence with your analysis. I can assure you that often the levels of crimes or abuses are not known and sometimes appear insignificant until someone makes specific enquiries into the subject. In my area, and I can speak for most of the UK as well, we did not have a significant illegal drugs problem until special units were formed to enquire into it. Very suddenly our knowledge about the extent of the issue was at least tenfold. The same occurred with domestic abuse, wildlife crime, etc. Once a dept is created to look into a particular crime, the level of the crime increases greatly, not so much through actual occurrence, but through intelligence and knowledge. Giving crimes a high public profile also leads to far greater reporting and recording, not necessarily a genuine increase in the crime itself.
The actual incidence of child physical abuse etc within the lay fellowship has not been explored. It is an unknown quantity. I do suspect levels will be less than the general public, but nevertheless suspect they will be at levels which justify concern. There are testimonies out there which suggest this to be the case. However, I do hope that you are right, i.e, few incidents!
I am not sure if you are following my rationale so I will spell it out a little more clearly. I am aware that lots of abuse goes unreported and never talked about. However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2013 15:39:52 GMT -5
CSA victims/survivors I know would much rather have suffered broken bones and gashing wounds than CSA. The body heals over time. Those who are comparing CSA with other abuse still have a lot to learn about CSA. I am certain there are some that were abused in any way that believe having been abused in another way would be better. There is a wide range of sexual abuse just as there is a wide range of any type of abuse. Most victims don't get to choose their type of abuse. What negative effects of sexual abuse do you think are not present from other types of abuse? I keep reading posts that make claims such as yours but do not see the differentiation. People who have been abused by others are victims. If they are still living they are also survivors. If they are dead they are no longer survivors but they remain victims. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2013 15:44:28 GMT -5
However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general. One reason for your conclusion might be because the majority of the cases of sexual abuse that are discussed are ones involving the workers, non-family members. Do you think there are not cases of family sexual abuse that are not told? Read the stories. Family members abuse each other. These are not reported and people do not go to court. You would not expect a dissatisfied family who leaves to announce to the world that they were abusing their children in any way. They will come out later when the children are older. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:04:37 GMT -5
CD wrote: Caution is good, but when there are very few reports of physical abuse and a significant number of reports of CSA, the only logical explanation is that physical abuse is not only small, but far lower than the general population. There are a huge number of exes out there today who would have no inhibition about speaking out about physical abuse if they had experienced it and felt is was a widespread problem among F&Ws. It think it is quite fair to have confidence that few reports = few incidents.
I do not share your confidence with your analysis. I can assure you that often the levels of crimes or abuses are not known and sometimes appear insignificant until someone makes specific enquiries into the subject. In my area, and I can speak for most of the UK as well, we did not have a significant illegal drugs problem until special units were formed to enquire into it. Very suddenly our knowledge about the extent of the issue was at least tenfold. The same occurred with domestic abuse, wildlife crime, etc. Once a dept is created to look into a particular crime, the level of the crime increases greatly, not so much through actual occurrence, but through intelligence and knowledge. Giving crimes a high public profile also leads to far greater reporting and recording, not necessarily a genuine increase in the crime itself.
The actual incidence of child physical abuse etc within the lay fellowship has not been explored. It is an unknown quantity. I do suspect levels will be less than the general public, but nevertheless suspect they will be at levels which justify concern. There are testimonies out there which suggest this to be the case. However, I do hope that you are right, i.e, few incidents!
I am not sure if you are following my rationale so I will spell it out a little more clearly. I am aware that lots of abuse goes unreported and never talked about. However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general.
That there are quite a few reports of physical abuse at least amongst the various testimonies out there is a fact. It seems you may be regarding these as unreliable or made up by these downright angry, dissatisfied persons, rather than considering the possibility of physical abuse, inter alia, as the cause of such dissatisfaction and anger? If I am reading you right, this is a very dangerous position to hold, unless you have clear evidence to support your view, as it flies in the face of up to date advice about how to respond to abuse claims.
Indication of such abuse comes to the fore regularly on this website but people just do not pick up on it, at least to any great length. It is overshadowed by other priorities or interests. As things stand I cannot recall instances of severe physical abuse ( broken ribs/smashed skulls type of stuff), but that does not mean there are no "serious" physical abuse reports out there. In general society, smashed skulls and broken ribs will feature in few of the serious cases of child physical abuse.
Quite simply, this issue has not been explored to any degree. Other than it is known that quite a few allegations of serious physical abuse have been made in various testimonies, it is still a very much unknown quantity. I have a suspicion that a proper exploration would see the graph shoot northwards. My view is that an open mind should be maintained. That way you won't be surprised if things turn out to be less favourable than we would hope for. I too suspect incidents would be lower than the population in general, but if the reverse proved to be the case, then I would not be surprised. As for child neglect, I would expect this to be lower, perhaps far lower than the general population, on social factors alone.
Remember too that CSA is really Child physical abuse with a sexual element, although the causation factors may differ to some extent, although there is some degree of overlap in many cases.
In no way am I suggesting that we should accept allegations of abuse as fact without proper investigation. However, when a number of allegations are made and are similar in character and detail, emanating from independent sources, I do get the feeling "we are on to something!" |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:12:49 GMT -5
However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general. One reason for your conclusion might be because the majority of the cases of sexual abuse that are discussed are ones involving the workers, non-family members. Do you think there are not cases of family sexual abuse that are not told? Read the stories. Family members abuse each other. These are not reported and people do not go to court. Of course there are stories which are not told. There are also stories of worker abuse which are not told as well. It is the victims who come out with the stories, not the abusers but I'm sure you know that. The phenomenon of ex-2x2s is nothing new as they range in age from children to folks in their 90's so it's not as though abuse just started and we need to wait for another decade or two to hear about it. We haven't heard about it from dissatisfied clientele who first became dissatisfied a half century ago. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:17:49 GMT -5
I think it is best to keep an open mind on the things discussed in recent posts. It's the best form of preparation for the unknown.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:27:00 GMT -5
CSA victims/survivors I know would much rather have suffered broken bones and gashing wounds than CSA. The body heals over time. Those who are comparing CSA with other abuse still have a lot to learn about CSA.I am certain there are some that were abused in any way that believe having been abused in another way would be better. There is a wide range of sexual abuse just as there is a wide range of any type of abuse. Most victims don't get to choose their type of abuse. [/font][/b] What negative effects of sexual abuse do you think are not present from other types of abuse? I keep reading posts that make claims such as yours but do not see the differentiation. People who have been abused by others are victims. If they are still living they are also survivors. If they are dead they are no longer survivors but they remain victims. [/quote] Fixit, we ALL have a lot to learn. For one thing, those who seek to make a clear separation between CSA and CPA fail to recognise that in many cases, both go hand in glove. As you say, victims don't get to choose their type of abuse, even when they have suffered two or three types. Keep in mind that CSA is generally CPA with a sexual element.
The body "may" heal over time, but some are beyond healing. CPA can and does produce emotional psychological effects in much the same way as CSA does. I prefer to look at matters case by case, not type by type, as it is the details, circumstances and severity of each case which determines the outcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:27:02 GMT -5
I am not sure if you are following my rationale so I will spell it out a little more clearly. I am aware that lots of abuse goes unreported and never talked about. However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general. Emotional abuse for one thing, they are extremely efficient at it. Whoa, slow down. You are reading it really wrong. People become dissatisfied clientele for good reasons most of the time. Most often it is due to a form of abuse and in the case of 2x2's, it is by far mostly due to emotional abuse. I don't have or have heard of many stories of severe physical abuse outside of corporal punishment. Perhaps you could compile a similar number as we have stories of CSA and you might be on to something. We agree on that. Take corporal punishment out of the equation, and you don't have much left. I think though that physical abusers in the past were able to hide their abuse in the form of corporal punishment. That's not so easy to hide these days. The fact is, CSA and emotional abuse was never explored yet an explosion of stories and evidence has poured out spontaneously over the last couple of decades. That should tell us something. The primary damages of CSA is not physical, it is emotional and psychological. I am quite prepared to accept the stories of victims. I will let authorities do the proper investigations. Yes, and so far, we are onto not much in the way of severe physical abuse or abuse by neglect. As soon as that happens, we will have something to talk about but I'm not about to go digging for crimes that may or may not exist. There are plenty of sites, including this one, where people can come and freely discuss the abuse they experienced within 2x2ism. There is no longer any reason to keep it hidden, particularly on site like this where participants can be anonymous and freely explain the abuses they have been subject to. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2013 16:32:36 GMT -5
What negative effects of sexual abuse do you think are not present from other types of abuse? I keep reading posts that make claims such as yours but do not see the differentiation CSA steals a child's innocence before the child even understands what's being stolen. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:52:43 GMT -5
Okay CD, what in your opinion are the F&W's doing that efficiently generates a lot of dissatisfied clientele of which quite a few are downright angry dissatisfied clientele? Emotional abuse for one thing, they are extremely efficient at it. Whoa, slow down. You are reading it really wrong. People become dissatisfied clientele for good reasons most of the time. Most often it is due to a form of abuse and in the case of 2x2's, it is by far mostly due to emotional abuse. Or spiritual abuse. Researchers also link this to some cases of CSA, CPA and child neglect within church environments.
I don't have or have heard of many stories of severe physical abuse outside of corporal punishment. Perhaps you could compile a similar number as we have stories of CSA and you might be on to something. I think this would be a good idea. Don't dilute "corporal punishment." We have "Snow" telling us on this very thread how when she sees a child being chastised it brings back the fears she had of this during her childhood. That's one example of excessive "corporal punishment."
We agree on that. Take corporal punishment out of the equation, and you don't have much left. In many ways CPA in families is a form or (excessive) corporal punishment. Parents attempt to justify their actions on the behaviour of the child. Of course there are other aspects too. I think though that physical abusers in the past were able to hide their abuse in the form of corporal punishment. That's not so easy to hide these days. I agree, but in insular groups such as the F&W's the desire to maintain the right impression is still rife. They are way behind society with dealing with abuses. Just look at the reluctance to deal properly with CSA!The fact is, CSA and emotional abuse was never explored yet an explosion of stories and evidence has poured out spontaneously over the last couple of decades. That should tell us something. I would suggest the bulk of CSA has come out during the last 3-4 years. When I posted my thread on recommended emergency measures for Workers only a few short years ago, I was largely greeted with being over-reactive, draconian etc. One reason was because we were only talking about a very small number of cases at the time. Emotional abuse (spiritual abuse) is only really being recognised now, although the actual behaviour which constitutes it has probably been discussed (rejected) since Irvine's time.
The primary damages of CSA is not physical, it is emotional and psychological. Exactly! The long-lasting damages of CPA and neglect are also emotional and psychological. The degree of effect is governed by the resilience or otherwise of the victim and the degree and circumstances of the abuse suffered, not so much the type of abuse.
I am quite prepared to accept the stories of victims. I will let authorities do the proper investigations. Agreed. Yes, and so far, we are onto not much in the way of severe physical abuse or abuse by neglect. As soon as that happens, we will have something to talk about but I'm not about to go digging for crimes that may or may not exist. There are plenty of sites, including this one, where people can come and freely discuss the abuse they experienced within 2x2ism. There is no longer any reason to keep it hidden, particularly on site like this where participants can be anonymous and freely explain the abuses they have been subject to. And they have done. Let's see what comes out in the future. I would love it for your views to be right. These are very early days. It is best to keep an open mind. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 16:54:06 GMT -5
What negative effects of sexual abuse do you think are not present from other types of abuse? I keep reading posts that make claims such as yours but do not see the differentiation CSA steals a child's innocence before the child even understands what's being stolen. And the difference between this and CPA and neglect is? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 17:17:38 GMT -5
Emotional abuse for one thing, they are extremely efficient at it. Whoa, slow down. You are reading it really wrong. People become dissatisfied clientele for good reasons most of the time. Most often it is due to a form of abuse and in the case of 2x2's, it is by far mostly due to emotional abuse. Or spiritual abuse. Researchers also link this to some cases of CSA, CPA and child neglect within church environments.
When I use the term "emotional abuse", I am including "spiritual abuse", which is simply emotional abuse arising from faith-related things. It is extremely important to take corporal punishment out of the equation. The sole component of corporal punishment that exists today is support of victims/survivors, which includes almost everyone over 45 years old and a decreasing number younger than that, to where there are almost none under 20 years old today. The component of corporal punishment that is missing today is solutions for eliminating it.....because it has already been practically eliminated. It would be foolish to get on the bandwagon to eliminate corporal punishment today. Absolutely. Even back in our day there were lines drawn between excessive corporal punishment and appropriate corporal punishment. Today, it is all abusive. F&Ws were slow to stop corporal punishment, but it is largely gone today. Yes, they do change.....contrary to what some people claim. CSA has been coming out for much longer than that. Read Reflections which came out in the 1990's. I would say stories have been emerging steadily for nearly 20 years. I am no expert on recovery, but I would suggest that severity of abuse and type of abuse all factor into the recovery process. I am certainly not trying to be in denial about CPA but I just don't see the evidence, nor has my relatively newfound vigilance of the last 15 years encountered much for rumours or facts about CPA. If CPA is a significant problem, it will get my attention, I can promise that. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 17:33:58 GMT -5
When I use the term "emotional abuse", I am including "spiritual abuse", which is simply emotional abuse arising from faith-related things. It is extremely important to take corporal punishment out of the equation. The sole component of corporal punishment that exists today is support of victims/survivors, which includes almost everyone over 45 years old and a decreasing number younger than that, to where there are almost none under 20 years old today. The component of corporal punishment that is missing today is solutions for eliminating it.....because it has already been practically eliminated. It would be foolish to get on the bandwagon to eliminate corporal punishment today. I disagree. Many very serious cases of CPA have their origins in chastisement. I hope you are correct that it has been practically eliminated. I rather doubt it, because there would be a very sharp drop in reported cases of CPA.Absolutely. Even back in our day there were lines drawn between excessive corporal punishment and appropriate corporal punishment. Today, it is all abusive. Not in the UK. Parents still have the right to physically chastise their children, but not in a way that marks or bruises the child. However, it is now frowned upon and far less socially acceptable. Nevertheless, who knows what goes on behind closed doors?
F&Ws were slow to stop corporal punishment, but it is largely gone today. Yes, they do change.....contrary to what some people claim. I hope you are right. I have been out the loop for a little while now.CSA has been coming out for much longer than that. Read Reflections which came out in the 1990's. I would say stories have been emerging steadily for nearly 20 years. Yes but it is only during the last 3-4 years that it has been receiving anything like the profile it is now. I was a latecomer to books like "Reflections."
I am no expert on recovery, but I would suggest that severity of abuse and type of abuse all factor into the recovery process. I'm sure each case will differ according to its own merits. I would not want to diminish or play down anything that any victim suffers or feels, whatever the type of abuse they have suffered.I am certainly not trying to be in denial about CPA but I just don't see the evidence, nor has my relatively newfound vigilance of the last 15 years encountered much for rumours or facts about CPA. If CPA is a significant problem, it will get my attention, I can promise that. As stated previously, I will be happy for you to be proved right. I keep an open mind. As far as I am concerned it is largely an unknown thing, although I certainly have read of many cases of physical abuse although at the time I did not put any undue importance on it. Maybe it is a good thing to explore these things now in order to see what the position is? |
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Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2013 18:01:52 GMT -5
From when I was growing up, I knew lots of kids who didn't get whupped at home but very few F&W kids escaped it. The reasons it was almost 100% in the F&Ws is that it was not only acceptable in society but it was also specifically taught by the workers. I think F&W parents were at one time made to feel guilty if they didn't whup their kids. In fact, I noticed the last gasp of that sort of thing when I was bringing up our first child 25 years ago. Just a few years later when we had our second, that stigma for not whupping your kids was almost entirely gone. I even noticed in my own family with certain members thinking we were "too easy" on our kids.....I even fretted about it a bit but in retrospect, I wouldn't change much based on the results. As far as school goes, corporal punishment, from my observations when growing up, was reserved only for the most extreme behaviours. The standard was easier on kids at school than it was at home. You would think we were raised, and grew up in the same City - and we aren't even in the same country. This is exactly what I have experienced as well. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2013 18:03:35 GMT -5
CSA steals a child's innocence before the child even understands what's being stolen. And the difference between this and CPA and neglect is? Huge. |
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Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2013 18:04:19 GMT -5
CSA victims/survivors I know would much rather have suffered broken bones and gashing wounds than CSA. The body heals over time. Those who are comparing CSA with other abuse still have a lot to learn about CSA. Absolutely. And even more so when one starts comparing a common place spanking with a belt from 35-40 years ago, to CSA. |
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Post by fixit on Jul 29, 2013 18:08:11 GMT -5
Please folks, do some more research on CSA.
We had a big fuss on TMB over the publishing of victim stories on Wings.
There are many books full of victim stories.
If you think CSA can be compared realistically with other forms of abuse, it tells me you need to hear more from the victims of CSA.
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Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2013 18:50:30 GMT -5
One of the most difficult hurdles will be in defining "abuse". Really? Yes Here are some definitions: US state:
Department of Children and Families Regulations (110 CMR, section 2.00):
Abuse: the non-accidental commission of any act by a caretaker upon a child under age 18 which causes, or creates a substantial risk of, physical or emotional injury; or constitutes a sexual offense under the laws of the Commonwealth; or any sexual contact between a caretaker and a child under the care of that individual. This definition is not dependent upon location.The Federal Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act (CAPTA) (42 U.S.C.A. § 5106g), as amended by the CAPTA Reauthorization Act of 2010, defines child abuse and neglect as, at minimum:
Any recent act or failure to act on the part of a parent or caretaker which results in death, serious physical or emotional harm, sexual abuse or exploitation or an act or failure to act which presents an imminent risk of serious harm. Wow, this is surprisingly new information. And, surprisingly, the various types of abuse are also defined. Surprisingly?Well, that's a relief! I wonder what some of the children in homes will write about their home life in 20 years. That would depend on who you talk to. There will varying stories. Hopefully most will be possitive.You are sure? None at all. Wow! I'm surprised that you are so surprised. Shows how long you've been gone. Yeah. That spiral fracture of the humerous from that bicycle fall is just a freak accident. "S/he is so clumsy. If you ask him/her about the broken bone/black eye, bruised leg they are so embarrassed they just stare at the ground and say nothing." That would sure be sad, but if you think this is common-place at all in our fellowship, you might be a bit delusional. Nah. There is no physical evidence of it. Probably something people have dreamed up.I see no reason to - unless people are being harmed. But my feeling is that you would know about it if it were happening. So...Child abuse? Emotional/psychological? Probably not. I was referring to "spiritual abuse". I could be wrong, but I don't believe what is referred to as spiritual abuse, is a legal issue. It will toughen the children up so they can function in the real world. That coupled with a slap or two and an occasional beating with a belt is a very positive experience.Rather than define it perhaps an example would help. Telling a young child that they will burn in hell forever for sins they cannot understand and did not commit, unless they follow some set of poorly defined rules, I view as child abuse. It doesn't matter how you view it. Does that make it a legal issue? And if you tie it to your religious beliefs I think it meets the requirement for "spiritual" abuse. So is it a legal issue? Remember, if a physical punishment/correction causes a subdural hematoma (black and blue) it was inflicted with enough force to be considered abuse. Soft tissue swelling or skin bruising is also within the definition. yes it is, but spiritual abuse in itself does not result in this.With all due consideration - You do not know that children in any of the F&W families are not being abused physically. You don't know how many bones have been broken in anger. You do not know, for example, how many children have been locked in closets as punishment. How many children have been told over and over they are worthless. I also don't know how many of them have murdered their Uncles and buried them in thier basements either. Once again, that ol common sense thing goes a long way. |
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Post by jondough on Jul 29, 2013 19:37:53 GMT -5
Rational - No, I didn't call it minor. I said that in looking at all forms of abuse, sexual abuse was a minor part.It is relevant because out of every 100 cases of abuse, on average, only 10 of them will be sexual abuse, a minor part of the total abuse.It has no effect on CSA at all because it is looking at the number of cases of sexual abuse there are compared to the total number of abuse cases.Again, it is not a comment on CSA other than stating that out of the total number of abuse cases reporter the number of sexual abuse cases is a minor part. Perhaps a little story will help. There are 1,000 people standing in the town square. 900 of them are women and 100 are men. Men are the minor part of the crowd. ok? If you are finally coming around to the thinking that it means no more than simply stating numbers, then we are coming together. And then something about...the reason it is focused on is because it involves sex, and sex sells? I think you have it. A crowd of 1,000 in Times Square does not make the evening news. 1,000 nude people in Times Square does make the evening news. 1,000 people having sex in Times Square is good for a couple of news cycles. The same group wearing tan trench coats - maybe a paragraph on page 10 below the fold. Let me be very clear, because perhaps you didn't understand this when we discussed it above. I'm not disputing whether sex sells. I'm disputing that the reason us Dads, moms, aunts, uncles, grandmothers, friends, and simply most decent fellow human beings are focused on eradicating CSA has nothing to do with the sex appeal. This is appalling that you would even state this, or compare it with adults looking at other nude adults in Time's Sqaure. This has to do with stopping a reprehensible act by an adult with an obvious reprobate mind, that is so damaging to a young vulnerable, innocent child.
The fact that you think that it is the sex appeal that is causing us to focus on this is sick. rational - There was no correlation or comparison. Sexual abuse and being struck with an object are both defined as types of abuse. Abuse is abuse. And crime is crime, but we don't lump it all together. For example, we don't lump petty theft in with murder. Nope. But petty theft is generally not a felony and murder is. Child abuse of any type is the same category of crime. Can you really say one type of abuse is worse than another? Of course. ( is this a trick question) It would be trivial to come up with examples to counter any claim. Like my being spanked with a belt as a child, in comparison to the child that was raped by his uncle.rational - Not all people who have been sexually abused suffer long term problems either.Can you support your statement that someone who has been sexually abused had no lasting damage from the experience? This is a tough statistic to determine. There is a big difference among people who have been abused by a stranger, a close family member, or by a minor who is just a few years older. There is also a great difference between sexual abuse that might consist of exhibitionism, frottage, or other types of non-penetrative sex and rape, for example. A statement put out by the Darkness to Light Organization states: The consequences of child sexual abuse often follow victims into adulthood. Most people have no idea that the effects of child sexual abuse are so pervasive in adult life. Although survivors of child sexual abuse are negatively impacted as a whole, it is important to realize that many individual survivors do not suffer these consequences. Child sexual abuse does not necessarily sentence a victim to an impaired life. This does not mean that the child did not have long term emotional damage. Some deal with it, and are able to live normal lives. Just about all are affected by it it different ways.From the American Psychological Association: The impact of sexual abuse can range from no apparent effects to very severe ones. Typically, children who experience the most serious types of abuse—abuse involving family members and high degrees of physical force—exhibit behavior problems ranging from separation anxiety to posttraumatic stress disorder. However, children who are the victims of sexual abuse are also often exposed to a variety of other stressors and difficult circumstances in their lives, including parental substance abuse. The sexual abuse and its aftermath may be only part of the child's negative experiences and subsequent behaviors. Therefore, correctly diagnosing abuse is often complex. Conclusive physical evidence of sexual abuse is relatively rare in suspected cases. For all of these reasons, when abuse is suspected, an appropriately trained health professional should be consulted.Because of the strong emotional/psychological component, determining the cause of the long term effect is problematic. In all cases treatment and support from family and friends results in the best outcome. rational - There is a wide spectrum of abuse yet the narrow focus is on sexual abuse. Object reality is ignored.Can you support the statement that "the narrow focus is on sexual abuse?". Why is "object reality ignored?" Look back 6 months ago and see how much of the discussion was focused on any thpe of abuse other than sexual abuse. Even though many accounts of the abuse were committed by family members or close trusted friends/workers the focus was on the sexual abuse while the emotional and psychological component of the incident was ignored. Why? I am sure you have your own conclusions why the emotional abuse suffered by a child who was raped by her father was ignored. This is why it should be referred to a professional. Understanding of this by those of us discussing it here on TMB should not be an indicaton of anything except maybe our ignorance on this subject. We usually react to what is most appalling and what we see on the surface. "rational - It really doesn't matter how you say it. There is much less attention given to non-sexual abuse. And because of the lack of attention given to non-sexual abuse it is minimized." So you blame this on the fact that we are narrowly focused on "sexual" abuse...due to "sex sells and gets all the attention?". Actually, I am not placing blame. Only offering a possible explanation. It is very possible that you do not think that sex sells. You may not believe that an article about some event that has a sexual tone will attract more readers than one without a sexual tone. You may think that Fifty Shades of Grey sold 70+ million copies because it was well written literature. I think I answered this above. This should not be about a sex thing for anyone. If it is....get out now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2013 19:49:03 GMT -5
One of the indicators of a lessening of child abuse (of all kinds) shows up in the reduction of crime coming from young people. In a crime briefing in The Economist on the rapid reduction of crime over the last 20 years in all advanced countries, they note a significant change in the behaviour of young people.
"In most countries young people are increasingly sober and well behaved. They are more likely to live with their parents and to be in higher education—across the European Union 28% of adults aged 25-34 still live at home. In Britain, the current generation of 18- to 24-year-olds is a lot less likely to have tried an illegal drug or to drink than those ten years older were at their age, and the same is true in most European countries."
Kids don't have a better human nature these days than kids of other generations. So there are reasons why they are behaving better although the above article doesn't get into why. Teens and young adults often resort to extreme (and dangerous behaviour) when subjected to serious child abuse. This includes drug abuse and crime. They also leave home as soon as they can and bail out of educational opportunities. These things aren't happening nearly as much anymore, and I attribute a lot of it to significant headway being made to child abuse over the last two decades and the dividends are paying off in a big way. There are so many awesome, talented, productive and well behaved teens running around these days that it amazes me. Sure there are some bad ones, but not nearly so many as there used to be. Why? They are being treated better, with more respect and being brought up with a "horse whisperer" approach rather than the old "break their will" concept, which was always abusive and contributed to an environment of more serious abuse.
If this trend continues, the dividends are going to only get better. We will see more well adjusted kids and society won't be filling the jails as much or cleaning up the crackheads off the street. This is no longer a theory, it is happening before our eyes and it has a lot to do with a reduction of early childhood abuse of all kinds, but particularly the most serious ones such as CSA which deeply affects its victims.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jul 29, 2013 20:35:04 GMT -5
CD wrote: Caution is good, but when there are very few reports of physical abuse and a significant number of reports of CSA, the only logical explanation is that physical abuse is not only small, but far lower than the general population. There are a huge number of exes out there today who would have no inhibition about speaking out about physical abuse if they had experienced it and felt is was a widespread problem among F&Ws. It think it is quite fair to have confidence that few reports = few incidents.
I do not share your confidence with your analysis. I can assure you that often the levels of crimes or abuses are not known and sometimes appear insignificant until someone makes specific enquiries into the subject. In my area, and I can speak for most of the UK as well, we did not have a significant illegal drugs problem until special units were formed to enquire into it. Very suddenly our knowledge about the extent of the issue was at least tenfold. The same occurred with domestic abuse, wildlife crime, etc. Once a dept is created to look into a particular crime, the level of the crime increases greatly, not so much through actual occurrence, but through intelligence and knowledge. Giving crimes a high public profile also leads to far greater reporting and recording, not necessarily a genuine increase in the crime itself.
The actual incidence of child physical abuse etc within the lay fellowship has not been explored. It is an unknown quantity. I do suspect levels will be less than the general public, but nevertheless suspect they will be at levels which justify concern. There are testimonies out there which suggest this to be the case. However, I do hope that you are right, i.e, few incidents!
I am not sure if you are following my rationale so I will spell it out a little more clearly. I am aware that lots of abuse goes unreported and never talked about. However, there is another dynamic going on with the F&Ws and that is that the F&Ws seem to efficiently generate a lot of dissatisfied clientele. In fact, it generates quite a few downright angry dissatisfied clientele. It is that dissatisfaction and anger that I expect to cause many reports to surface of ugly things of all kinds going on in the fellowship.....and lots of it does. Yet, we get hardly any reports of unusual physical abuse or even many rumours of such (similarly with neglect). It's a very quiet area of complaint. Yet we get lots of CSA complaints (an area that is often very underreported) as well as tons of reports of lower level emotional abuse from things like the enforcement of dress codes, restrictions of lifestyles, shunning, excommunication, and withdrawal of affection. So with a huge number of complaints out there against the F&W church but few related to severe physical abuse, I reach my opinion of the low frequency of physical abuse. Of course it isn't zero, but in my view it is much lower than the population in general. Oftentimes when children are unfairly physically and emotionally abused by their parents/guardians it is almost as hard for them to "tell" their stories as it is for those who suffer CSA! It always gets put on the back of those children that they are the cause of it all. So who wants to admit to being so bad that they have had to be slapped around, hollered at and whipped and they don't even know they why of the abuse! |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2013 21:37:34 GMT -5
It is the victims who come out with the stories, not the abusers but I'm sure you know that. The phenomenon of ex-2x2s is nothing new as they range in age from children to folks in their 90's so it's not as though abuse just started and we need to wait for another decade or two to hear about it. We haven't heard about it from dissatisfied clientele who first became dissatisfied a half century ago. Have you read the stories of the victims? Almost without exception they contain descriptions of non-sexual child abuse. We have heard about it from dissatisfied clientele who first became dissatisfied a half century ago. |
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Post by rational on Jul 29, 2013 22:12:59 GMT -5
Whoa, slow down. You are reading it really wrong. People become dissatisfied clientele for good reasons most of the time. Most often it is due to a form of abuse and in the case of 2x2's, it is by far mostly due to emotional abuse. This is a major change from your earlier statement that forms of abuse other than sexual abuse was negligible among the F&W. Have you read the accounts that people have posted? How many accounts of abuse, physical, emotional, psychological, and/or sexual, do you need? An abuser hides the abuse by controlling the victims. And control is what abuse is all about. Clothes can hide a lot. And no child wants to tell about the beating from their father/mother. Have you read the stories that have been posted? They talk about abuse. Abuse of all types. This, of course, depends on the abuse. Being raped at 11 years old is physically damaging. Of course, being beaten does also cause physical damage and then, in addition, there is the emotional and psychological damage of being mistreated by someone you believe is supposed to love you without question. And they have. For example ckirkham posted about the abuse he suffered when growing up. Somehow you seemed to have missed these reports of physical abuse and keep saying you will wait until someone mentions they were physically abused. |
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