Two by Two, The Shape of a Shapeless Movement by Irvine Grey

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 14:42:16 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 10:40:47 GMT -5 @ram said:

Personally I see this issue as simply another example of the double-speak which hallmarks the movement.

Did you always see it as double-speak? Surely this was always obvious to you since it is "double-speak which hallmarks the movement"?

You are right to ask this question CD. No I didn't see this sort of thing as double-speak until the scales fell away from my eyes. I had bought into the way hook, line and sinker and despite wriggling about with many issues over my professing years, I found every excuse I could (double-think!) to stop myself concluding, "there's something fishy here?"

Sometimes you have to be out the forest to see the shape of it. The closer you are to the centre, the less you are likely see the shape of a shapeless movement! Okay, I got carried away with that last bit!

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 14:59:17 GMT -5 @ram said:

Aug 15, 2013 14:42:16 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Did you always see it as double-speak? Surely this was always obvious to you since it is "double-speak which hallmarks the movement"?

You are right to ask this question CD. No I didn't see this sort of thing as double-speak until the scales fell away from my eyes. I had bought into the way hook, line and sinker and despite wriggling about with many issues over my professing years, I found every excuse I could (double-think!) to stop myself concluding, "there's something fishy here?"

Sometimes you have to be out the forest to see the shape of it. The closer you are to the centre, the less you are likely see the shape of a shapeless movement! Okay, I got carried away with that last bit!

Your position of "blindness" is normal, and so is your reaction to it normal. So there's nothing wrong with you, you're normal! I have seen this reaction many many times when "the scales fall from the eyes". I was there too until I began to dispassionately analyze it and now I have moved on to what I see as a more accurate vision of how it works and why it works the way it does.

The truth is this: very few workers truly believe they are giving a false impression of the (non)organization line. They do not feel they are doing double-speak. You, Grey, and HF seem to be suggesting that they are actually lying about it.....but they aren't. They shun practically all aspects of a formal organization (in terms of the many aspects of formality that I have listed) and that is the basis of their presentation that they are not (formally) organized. If they can be criticized, it should not be for "double-speak" or lying, but it should be for failing to convey that they do have an informal organization (anyone can see that it exists, even disinterested outsiders)and that they really mean they don't have the trappings of a formal organization. The whole thing is held together by implicit agreement (not explicit formal agreement), and according them, that is being guided by the Holy Spirit.

I don't expect many exes to agree with me because so many have been hurt badly by a feeling of betrayal and left with a lingering sense that they have been tricked and lied to all their lives. However, the truth isn't quite so simple, nor does the truth make the workers look good either.

[Happy Feet]

Now you are saying that being given the impression is another way of saying lying. To me the ones giving the impression are often as blinded by the whole thing as anyone. Irvine is not an ex and was not B&R so is maybe able to be more objective and see through the whole thing better than some of us b&rs.

[What Hat]

One of the great principles by which the movement is run is that there is no formal organization. This isn't a "false impression", it's what the group aspires to do and to be.
So how do I explain the workers, head workers, trust accounts, and so on? Like this. There isn't a single principle you could name that is not attended by an element of hypocrisy. That applies to the principles of any group, whether those people are the Boy Scouts, the f&w, the Mennonites, or an entire nation such as the USA or Canada. Using Irvine-speak, one might say that Americans give a "false impression" of living in a free country, because they actually have the highest incarceration rate in the world, and do little for the poor. But please don't tell that to an American, because freedom is a very deeply held value, one which many of them have died to protect.
And please don't tell any of the friends that they DO have a formal organization, or much more than a skeleton level of organization, because the friends have a deeply held belief that they don't, and a point of pride is to do as much as possible with a minimum of organizational overhead. As Clearday indicates, no one is trying to create a "false impression" about this. A false impression is created when you believe one thing, and give off that you believe something else. That is simply not the case with the friends and their method of organization. They believe they don't have a formal organization, end of story.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 15:44:27 GMT -5 Happy Feet said:

Now you are saying that being given the impression is another way of saying lying. To me the ones giving the impression are often as blinded by the whole thing as anyone. Irvine is not an ex so does not fit into the category of an ex.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. "Giving" an impression indicates intentional willfulness. If Grey intended to convey that the workers were blind too, there are much better ways to say it. His wording is definitely implying that the workers know better and are trying to trick people.

The fact that Grey is not an ex should have been helpful to enable him to see the truth. However, since he has largely done his research using exes for a lot of his information, it should be no surprise (but unfortunate) that his work is biased toward the viewpoint of many exes.

Let's face it, the workers know they are organized but they convey that they are not. Superficially it appears hypocritical and deceptive but when you unravel it all, it is not deceptive nor are the workers blind to how it works. They really need to get better at explaining themselves.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 15:44:27 GMT -5 Happy Feet said:

Now you are saying that being given the impression is another way of saying lying. To me the ones giving the impression are often as blinded by the whole thing as anyone. Irvine is not an ex and was not B&R so is maybe able to be more objective and see through the whole thing better than some of us b&rs.

Grey has stated, in effect, that the friends are going to Hell, and that you have to "buy in" to the Trinity theology to obtain salvation. On this basis, he labels the friends a "dangerous cult". Doesn't sound objective to me.

Actually, I believe that Grey's theological views are very narrow, and not widely held. Sure, most Christians say they accept the Trinity theology but when you begin to break it down with them, it has little to do with their faith or their values, which tend to centre on the sayings of Jesus, and belief in God, and the after-life. The issue of whether Jesus is a person of God Himself, or of the same divine nature as God (the friends' belief and all that the Bible actually says) is a fine point that matters little in terms of how people live or worship. It is a BIG point to theologians in terms of keeping Christianity as an exclusive religion. Although there are corrupt theologians, fortunately, there are also honest theologians like John Hick and Marcus Borg who go by the Bible rather than the history of the church, and understand that these issues do not matter.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 15:55:25 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 15:44:27 GMT -5 Happy Feet said:

Now you are saying that being given the impression is another way of saying lying. To me the ones giving the impression are often as blinded by the whole thing as anyone. Irvine is not an ex so does not fit into the category of an ex.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. "Giving" an impression indicates intentional willfulness. If Grey intended to convey that the workers were blind too, there are much better ways to say it. His wording is definitely implying that the workers know better and are trying to trick people.

The fact that Grey is not an ex should have been helpful to enable him to see the truth. However, since he has largely done his research using exes for a lot of his information, it should be no surprise (but unfortunate) that his work is biased toward the viewpoint of many exes.

Let's face it, the workers know they are organized but they convey that they are not. Superficially it appears hypocritical and deceptive but when you unravel it all, it is not deceptive nor are the workers blind to how it works. They really need to get better at explaining themselves.

There is an element of hypocrisy attendant to the "no organization" mantra. That's because it is impossible to actually have "no organization". One finds the same kind of hypocrisy with Old Order Mennonites who don't own motor vehicles, but will take a bus, or even hitch hike into town. It would be one thing to accuse the friends of hypocrisy at times, but quite another to indicate that their values are phoney and a chimera, as Grey does time and time again. He even states that there is a "secret headquarters" somewhere.
Anyway, these kinds of spitting matches occur all the time between subcultures and the dominant mainstream culture. It's pitiful to find it in a work that claims to be an academic thesis though.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 16:15:34 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Aug 15, 2013 15:55:25 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. "Giving" an impression indicates intentional willfulness. If Grey intended to convey that the workers were blind too, there are much better ways to say it. His wording is definitely implying that the workers know better and are trying to trick people.

The fact that Grey is not an ex should have been helpful to enable him to see the truth. However, since he has largely done his research using exes for a lot of his information, it should be no surprise (but unfortunate) that his work is biased toward the viewpoint of many exes.

Let's face it, the workers know they are organized but they convey that they are not. Superficially it appears hypocritical and deceptive but when you unravel it all, it is not deceptive nor are the workers blind to how it works. They really need to get better at explaining themselves.

There is an element of hypocrisy attendant to the "no organization" mantra. That's because it is impossible to actually have "no organization". One finds the same kind of hypocrisy with Old Order Mennonites who don't own motor vehicles, but will take a bus, or even hitch hike into town. It would be one thing to accuse the friends of hypocrisy at times, but quite another to indicate that their values are phoney and a chimera, as Grey does time and time again. He even states that there is a "secret headquarters" somewhere.
Anyway, these kinds of spitting matches occur all the time between subcultures and the dominant mainstream culture. It's pitiful to find it in a work that claims to be an academic thesis though.

So Grey's work can be characterized as part of a "Spitting Match"? That evokes some interesting visuals!

I would definitely wonder though about a worker's integrity who would continue to claim no organization at all when queried about meeting lists, worker lists bible study lists, prep lists, special meeting route lists and so on.

[Greg]

How did Irvine Grey come to learn of the existence of the friends and workers?

[Deleted]

Duplicity comes to mind on this issue. I get the difference between 'we are extremely well organized' and 'we are an organization,' but the fact the workers will only say publically 'we are not an organization' tends to imply that they are not organized and therefore completely Spirit led. It was years before I realized what was really being done versus what was implied. If you consider what was just posted two days ago on the 323 professing FB, reportedly convention notes from a senior brother worker (sounds like Howard Mooney to me, but I don't know if these were recent notes or not), the thought implied is that 'things just happen.' I've heard this sort of talk all my life. I can see how this would strike many as double speak, especially if you've seen something as well organized as convention, preps, and travel arrangements. They would be honest if they said 'we are well organized' but 'we have no formal organization,' but I've never heard them say that publicly.

FB posting:
"WE HAVE NO ORGANIZATION, - - that is the MYSTERY of this "THING."

The longer I live, the more I am astounded myself, that it is possible to carry on the WORK OF GOD in the world WITHOUT ANY ORGANIZATION.

The WORLD says, "You have got to organize."

It is possible for us to REPRODUCE THE FELLOWSHIP THAT EXISTED IN NEW TESTAMENT DAYS WITHOUT THERE BEING ANY HEAD OR TAIL TO IT. "Only those who serve are qualified to lead." Jesus said,"I am among you as one that serveth."

I am trying to serve you this afternoon. Isn't it a very wonderful thing that, without a beginning or end, that we are here? "

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 16:42:17 GMT -5 Greg said:

How did Irvine Grey come to learn of the existence of the friends and workers?

As I recall, the book indicates his grandmother professed and he went to conventions (maybe gospel meetings) as a kid.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 15:32:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 14:59:17 GMT -5 @ram said:

You are right to ask this question CD. No I didn't see this sort of thing as double-speak until the scales fell away from my eyes. I had bought into the way hook, line and sinker and despite wriggling about with many issues over my professing years, I found every excuse I could (double-think!) to stop myself concluding, "there's something fishy here?"

Sometimes you have to be out the forest to see the shape of it. The closer you are to the centre, the less you are likely see the shape of a shapeless movement! Okay, I got carried away with that last bit!

Your position of "blindness" is normal, and so is your reaction to it normal. So there's nothing wrong with you, you're normal! I have seen this reaction many many times when "the scales fall from the eyes". I was there too until I began to dispassionately analyze it and now I have moved on to what I see as a more accurate vision of how it works and why it works the way it does.

The truth is this: very few workers truly believe they are giving a false impression of the (non)organization line. They do not feel they are doing double-speak. You, Grey, and HF seem to be suggesting that they are actually lying about it.....but they aren't. They shun practically all aspects of a formal organization (in terms of the many aspects of formality that I have listed) and that is the basis of their presentation that they are not (formally) organized. If they can be criticized, it should not be for "double-speak" or lying, but it should be for failing to convey that they do have an informal organization (anyone can see that it exists, even disinterested outsiders)and that they really mean they don't have the trappings of a formal organization. The whole thing is held together by implicit agreement (not explicit formal agreement), and according them, that is being guided by the Holy Spirit.

I don't expect many exes to agree with me because so many have been hurt badly by a feeling of betrayal and left with a lingering sense that they have been tricked and lied to all their lives. However, the truth isn't quite so simple, nor does the truth make the workers look good either.

No CD I am not suggesting the workers deliberately lie about anything (generally speaking). Double-speak is part of the culture and mindset. Most often friends and workers think they are responding wisely, without realising the deception that is involved. Impression is very much part of things, either to promote the way or to protect it. I was run of the mill double-speak and double-think, until I was eventually made to treble-think!

Yes insiders truly but mistakingly believe there is no formal organisation. Of course most of them don't know a thing about the mechanics of the way and just as importantly, they don't give a hoot. For the greater part we are/were all victims of a system and culture we were indoctrinated by and bought into. In turn we became perpetrators. Most of the time the double-speak or double-think is done innocently as we try to reconcile various factors, often with sparse information. We are not intending to deceive, but we do so nonetheless. The deceived deceive unwittingly. Blind leading the blind if you like. The ditch can be a rude awakener!

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 17:06:26 GMT -5 hberry said:

Duplicity comes to mind on this issue. I get the difference between 'we are extremely well organized' and 'we are an organization,' but the fact the workers will only say publically 'we are not an organization' tends to imply that they are not organized and therefore completely Spirit led. It was years before I realized what was really being done versus what was implied. If you consider what was just posted two days ago on the 323 professing FB, reportedly convention notes from a senior brother worker (sounds like Howard Mooney to me, but I don't know if these were recent notes or not), the thought implied is that 'things just happen.' I've heard this sort of talk all my life. I can see how this would strike many as double speak, especially if you've seen something as well organized as convention, preps, and travel arrangements. They would be honest if they said 'we are well organized' but 'we have no formal organization,' but I've never heard them say that publicly.

FB posting:
"WE HAVE NO ORGANIZATION, - - that is the MYSTERY of this "THING."

The longer I live, the more I am astounded myself, that it is possible to carry on the WORK OF GOD in the world WITHOUT ANY ORGANIZATION.

The WORLD says, "You have got to organize."

It is possible for us to REPRODUCE THE FELLOWSHIP THAT EXISTED IN NEW TESTAMENT DAYS WITHOUT THERE BEING ANY HEAD OR TAIL TO IT. "Only those who serve are qualified to lead." Jesus said,"I am among you as one that serveth."

I am trying to serve you this afternoon. Isn't it a very wonderful thing that, without a beginning or end, that we are here? "

Yes, they really need to explain it properly as to what they mean.

I heard it all my life that we are not an organization but I never believed that we weren't organized as it was obvious that things were pretty well organized....just the Wed night bible study list was enough for that. The difference always made some sense to me. At one point in more recent years I did consider that there was duplicity here (double speak) but I don't see it that way....at least not in general. It is a fact that we didn't have a headquarters, a world leader, a charter, a statement of beliefs, an incorporation (except for the one in Alberta for awhile), or all the normal trappings of an official organization. However, I never did think that "things just happened" as that doesn't make any sense.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 16:35:48 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 16:15:34 GMT -5 What Hat said:

There is an element of hypocrisy attendant to the "no organization" mantra. That's because it is impossible to actually have "no organization". One finds the same kind of hypocrisy with Old Order Mennonites who don't own motor vehicles, but will take a bus, or even hitch hike into town. It would be one thing to accuse the friends of hypocrisy at times, but quite another to indicate that their values are phoney and a chimera, as Grey does time and time again. He even states that there is a "secret headquarters" somewhere.
Anyway, these kinds of spitting matches occur all the time between subcultures and the dominant mainstream culture. It's pitiful to find it in a work that claims to be an academic thesis though.

So Grey's work can be characterized as part of a "Spitting Match"? That evokes some interesting visuals!

I would definitely wonder though about a worker's integrity who would continue to claim no organization at all when queried about meeting lists, worker lists bible study lists, prep lists, special meeting route lists and so on.

There's always a bit of the blinders effect when it comes to deeply held values. "No organization" and "led by the Spirit" are two such examples. But that's really no different than conservative Christians who talk about "family" love, but then shun someone in the family who is lesbian or gay. We're all hypocrites when you get right down to it, but we tend to see hypocrisy only in others. The only people who aren't hypocrites are the severe reprobates.

The reason I call this a "spitting match" is that I have a strong distaste for arguing over Bible verses. If you have a particular slant, okay, preach it, but don't worry about what Apollos is saying.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 17:06:26 GMT -5 hberry said:

Duplicity comes to mind on this issue. I get the difference between 'we are extremely well organized' and 'we are an organization,' but the fact the workers will only say publically 'we are not an organization' tends to imply that they are not organized and therefore completely Spirit led. It was years before I realized what was really being done versus what was implied. If you consider what was just posted two days ago on the 323 professing FB, reportedly convention notes from a senior brother worker (sounds like Howard Mooney to me, but I don't know if these were recent notes or not), the thought implied is that 'things just happen.' I've heard this sort of talk all my life. I can see how this would strike many as double speak, especially if you've seen something as well organized as convention, preps, and travel arrangements. They would be honest if they said 'we are well organized' but 'we have no formal organization,' but I've never heard them say that publicly.

FB posting:
"WE HAVE NO ORGANIZATION, - - that is the MYSTERY of this "THING."

The longer I live, the more I am astounded myself, that it is possible to carry on the WORK OF GOD in the world WITHOUT ANY ORGANIZATION.

The WORLD says, "You have got to organize."

It is possible for us to REPRODUCE THE FELLOWSHIP THAT EXISTED IN NEW TESTAMENT DAYS WITHOUT THERE BEING ANY HEAD OR TAIL TO IT. "Only those who serve are qualified to lead." Jesus said,"I am among you as one that serveth."

I am trying to serve you this afternoon. Isn't it a very wonderful thing that, without a beginning or end, that we are here? "

Actually, the friends have accomplished quite a lot through un-churching, which is what I might call it. They have stripped away a lot of un-necessary baggage so I give them credit for that. Core values become part of the culture, and then they are beyond common sense. Don't expect any but the most introspective to see the hypocrisy that arises out of deeply held values. To someone outside the culture, the hypocrisy is always apparent though.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 17:53:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 17:06:26 GMT -5 hberry said:

Duplicity comes to mind on this issue. I get the difference between 'we are extremely well organized' and 'we are an organization,' but the fact the workers will only say publically 'we are not an organization' tends to imply that they are not organized and therefore completely Spirit led. It was years before I realized what was really being done versus what was implied. If you consider what was just posted two days ago on the 323 professing FB, reportedly convention notes from a senior brother worker (sounds like Howard Mooney to me, but I don't know if these were recent notes or not), the thought implied is that 'things just happen.' I've heard this sort of talk all my life. I can see how this would strike many as double speak, especially if you've seen something as well organized as convention, preps, and travel arrangements. They would be honest if they said 'we are well organized' but 'we have no formal organization,' but I've never heard them say that publicly.

FB posting:
"WE HAVE NO ORGANIZATION, - - that is the MYSTERY of this "THING."

The longer I live, the more I am astounded myself, that it is possible to carry on the WORK OF GOD in the world WITHOUT ANY ORGANIZATION.

The WORLD says, "You have got to organize."

It is possible for us to REPRODUCE THE FELLOWSHIP THAT EXISTED IN NEW TESTAMENT DAYS WITHOUT THERE BEING ANY HEAD OR TAIL TO IT. "Only those who serve are qualified to lead." Jesus said,"I am among you as one that serveth."

I am trying to serve you this afternoon. Isn't it a very wonderful thing that, without a beginning or end, that we are here? "

Yes, they really need to explain it properly as to what they mean.

I heard it all my life that we are not an organization but I never believed that we weren't organized as it was obvious that things were pretty well organized....just the Wed night bible study list was enough for that. The difference always made some sense to me. At one point in more recent years I did consider that there was duplicity here (double speak) but I don't see it that way....at least not in general. It is a fact that we didn't have a headquarters, a world leader, a charter, a statement of beliefs, an incorporation (except for the one in Alberta for awhile), or all the normal trappings of an official organization. However, I never did think that "things just happened" as that doesn't make any sense.

It's not duplicity, and it's not double speak. These are deeply held values and influence the behaviour of the group. There is evidence of hypocrisy, of events considered transcendent that have a common sense explanation (like how we find friends in distant cities), and of willful blindness to the actual trappings of organization, such as worker fields, head workers, and so on.
Double speak and duplicity occur when the message is knowingly manipulated to hide the facts of the situation. There has been duplicity among the workers concerning sexual abuse, for example. But I've never seen anyone hide the worker's list, friend's lists or hymn books in order to show that there is "no organization". That would be duplicity.

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 17:08:55 GMT -5 @ram said:

Aug 15, 2013 15:32:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Your position of "blindness" is normal, and so is your reaction to it normal. So there's nothing wrong with you, you're normal! I have seen this reaction many many times when "the scales fall from the eyes". I was there too until I began to dispassionately analyze it and now I have moved on to what I see as a more accurate vision of how it works and why it works the way it does.

The truth is this: very few workers truly believe they are giving a false impression of the (non)organization line. They do not feel they are doing double-speak. You, Grey, and HF seem to be suggesting that they are actually lying about it.....but they aren't. They shun practically all aspects of a formal organization (in terms of the many aspects of formality that I have listed) and that is the basis of their presentation that they are not (formally) organized. If they can be criticized, it should not be for "double-speak" or lying, but it should be for failing to convey that they do have an informal organization (anyone can see that it exists, even disinterested outsiders)and that they really mean they don't have the trappings of a formal organization. The whole thing is held together by implicit agreement (not explicit formal agreement), and according them, that is being guided by the Holy Spirit.

I don't expect many exes to agree with me because so many have been hurt badly by a feeling of betrayal and left with a lingering sense that they have been tricked and lied to all their lives. However, the truth isn't quite so simple, nor does the truth make the workers look good either.

No CD I am not suggesting the workers deliberately lie about anything (generally speaking). Double-speak is part of the culture and mindset. Most often friends and workers think they are responding wisely, without realising the deception that is involved. Impression is very much part of things, either to promote the way or to protect it. I was run of the mill double-speak and double-think, until I was eventually made to treble-think!

Yes insiders truly but mistakingly believe there is no formal organisation. Of course most of them don't know a thing about the mechanics of the way and just as importantly, they don't give a hoot. For the greater part we are/were all victims of a system and culture we were indoctrinated by and bought into. In turn we became perpetrators. Most of the time the double-speak or double-think is done innocently as we try to reconcile various factors, often with sparse information. We are not intending to deceive, but we do so nonetheless. The deceived deceive unwittingly. Blind leading the blind if you like. The ditch can be a rude awakener!

They're not in any ditch that I can see. From any objective perspective, the friends do "community" extremely well. At least around here.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 17:53:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Yes, they really need to explain it properly as to what they mean.

I heard it all my life that we are not an organization but I never believed that we weren't organized as it was obvious that things were pretty well organized....just the Wed night bible study list was enough for that. The difference always made some sense to me. At one point in more recent years I did consider that there was duplicity here (double speak) but I don't see it that way....at least not in general. It is a fact that we didn't have a headquarters, a world leader, a charter, a statement of beliefs, an incorporation (except for the one in Alberta for awhile), or all the normal trappings of an official organization. However, I never did think that "things just happened" as that doesn't make any sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense, and once you realize what they mean, it all works out. But just this convention, a brother worker--maybe 8-10 years in the work said (this is verbatim): our ministry is such a miracle. We travel all over the world without money and never have to find a place to stay or eat anywhere in the world." Well, presented that way, yes..it does sound a bit miraculous. Now I'm sure he meant that he personally didn't have any money and he didn't personally make the travel plans and he personally didn't find the homes to stay in, but the presentation was a bit over the top. Of course it didn't just happen, but it was a 'no organization, ain't we amazin' sermon. It was even too much for my Mom, who just said 'and how does he think it happens?" Anyway, I know they aren't being underhanded--they're good folks; I just think they should be a tad more careful in how they 'splain things.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 20:20:49 GMT -5 hberry said:

Aug 15, 2013 17:53:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Yes, they really need to explain it properly as to what they mean.

I heard it all my life that we are not an organization but I never believed that we weren't organized as it was obvious that things were pretty well organized....just the Wed night bible study list was enough for that. The difference always made some sense to me. At one point in more recent years I did consider that there was duplicity here (double speak) but I don't see it that way....at least not in general. It is a fact that we didn't have a headquarters, a world leader, a charter, a statement of beliefs, an incorporation (except for the one in Alberta for awhile), or all the normal trappings of an official organization. However, I never did think that "things just happened" as that doesn't make any sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense, and once you realize what they mean, it all works out. But just this convention, a brother worker--maybe 8-10 years in the work said (this is verbatim): our ministry is such a miracle. We travel all over the world without money and never have to find a place to stay or eat anywhere in the world." Well, presented that way, yes..it does sound a bit miraculous. Now I'm sure he meant that he personally didn't have any money and he didn't personally make the travel plans and he personally didn't find the homes to stay in, but the presentation was a bit over the top. Of course it didn't just happen, but it was a 'no organization, ain't we amazin' sermon. It was even too much for my Mom, who just said 'and how does he think it happens?" Anyway, I know they aren't being underhanded--they're good folks; I just think they should be a tad more careful in how they 'splain things.

The worst part isn't the "miracle" stuff, it's the "ain't we amazin'" stuff......like last Sunday's sermon!

[What Hat]

Aug 15, 2013 20:20:49 GMT -5 hberry said:

Aug 15, 2013 17:53:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Yes, they really need to explain it properly as to what they mean.

I heard it all my life that we are not an organization but I never believed that we weren't organized as it was obvious that things were pretty well organized....just the Wed night bible study list was enough for that. The difference always made some sense to me. At one point in more recent years I did consider that there was duplicity here (double speak) but I don't see it that way....at least not in general. It is a fact that we didn't have a headquarters, a world leader, a charter, a statement of beliefs, an incorporation (except for the one in Alberta for awhile), or all the normal trappings of an official organization. However, I never did think that "things just happened" as that doesn't make any sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense, and once you realize what they mean, it all works out. But just this convention, a brother worker--maybe 8-10 years in the work said (this is verbatim): our ministry is such a miracle. We travel all over the world without money and never have to find a place to stay or eat anywhere in the world." Well, presented that way, yes..it does sound a bit miraculous. Now I'm sure he meant that he personally didn't have any money and he didn't personally make the travel plans and he personally didn't find the homes to stay in, but the presentation was a bit over the top. Of course it didn't just happen, but it was a 'no organization, ain't we amazin' sermon. It was even too much for my Mom, who just said 'and how does he think it happens?" Anyway, I know they aren't being underhanded--they're good folks; I just think they should be a tad more careful in how they 'splain things.

We seem to have a need to mythologize those things that form our collective identity.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 21:24:15 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Aug 15, 2013 20:20:49 GMT -5 hberry said:

No, it doesn't make any sense, and once you realize what they mean, it all works out. But just this convention, a brother worker--maybe 8-10 years in the work said (this is verbatim): our ministry is such a miracle. We travel all over the world without money and never have to find a place to stay or eat anywhere in the world." Well, presented that way, yes..it does sound a bit miraculous. Now I'm sure he meant that he personally didn't have any money and he didn't personally make the travel plans and he personally didn't find the homes to stay in, but the presentation was a bit over the top. Of course it didn't just happen, but it was a 'no organization, ain't we amazin' sermon. It was even too much for my Mom, who just said 'and how does he think it happens?" Anyway, I know they aren't being underhanded--they're good folks; I just think they should be a tad more careful in how they 'splain things.

We seem to have a need to mythologize those things that form our collective identity.

That's a good point, WH.

[Lee]

Our bodies our organized and when they aren't, we miss them.

I have a pancreas that doesn't work right and I miss it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What's so bad about being organized?

How does organization precluded the activity of the holy spirit?

Why do people believe that organization is an invention of Satan?

Do people think that organization in the world is a function of the anti-Christ?

Obviously people do believe this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The question then is not about organization but of culture:

Is culture on balance serving the interests of Christ? If so, groups like the 2x2 are behaving with licentious, eccentricity.

Is culture on balance acting against the interests of Christ? If so groups like the 2x2 should be examined and commmended for any traces of dissimulation.

Is culture on balance acting for and against the interests of Christ? Someone fetch me a God-deigned computer.

[Lee]

Are far as telling the truth, duplicity, and their willingness to give false impressions go .... IMO their partisanship is as fanatical as it is anti-Christ.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 18:22:46 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Aug 15, 2013 17:08:55 GMT -5 @ram said:

No CD I am not suggesting the workers deliberately lie about anything (generally speaking). Double-speak is part of the culture and mindset. Most often friends and workers think they are responding wisely, without realising the deception that is involved. Impression is very much part of things, either to promote the way or to protect it. I was run of the mill double-speak and double-think, until I was eventually made to treble-think!

Yes insiders truly but mistakingly believe there is no formal organisation. Of course most of them don't know a thing about the mechanics of the way and just as importantly, they don't give a hoot. For the greater part we are/were all victims of a system and culture we were indoctrinated by and bought into. In turn we became perpetrators. Most of the time the double-speak or double-think is done innocently as we try to reconcile various factors, often with sparse information. We are not intending to deceive, but we do so nonetheless. The deceived deceive unwittingly. Blind leading the blind if you like. The ditch can be a rude awakener!

They're not in any ditch that I can see. From any objective perspective, the friends do "community" extremely well. At least around here.

Many end up in the ditch. This board alone is clear evidence of that.

[Deleted]

Aug 15, 2013 20:59:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 15, 2013 20:20:49 GMT -5 hberry said:

No, it doesn't make any sense, and once you realize what they mean, it all works out. But just this convention, a brother worker--maybe 8-10 years in the work said (this is verbatim): our ministry is such a miracle. We travel all over the world without money and never have to find a place to stay or eat anywhere in the world." Well, presented that way, yes..it does sound a bit miraculous. Now I'm sure he meant that he personally didn't have any money and he didn't personally make the travel plans and he personally didn't find the homes to stay in, but the presentation was a bit over the top. Of course it didn't just happen, but it was a 'no organization, ain't we amazin' sermon. It was even too much for my Mom, who just said 'and how does he think it happens?" Anyway, I know they aren't being underhanded--they're good folks; I just think they should be a tad more careful in how they 'splain things.

The worst part isn't the "miracle" stuff, it's the "ain't we amazin'" stuff......like last Sunday's sermon!

Yep, we're different from all the rest. The other ways have worldly problems, we don't. And so on it goes (or went).

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2013 3:29:37 GMT -5 @ram said:

Aug 15, 2013 20:59:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The worst part isn't the "miracle" stuff, it's the "ain't we amazin'" stuff......like last Sunday's sermon!

Yep, we're different from all the rest. The other ways have worldly problems, we don't. And so on it goes (or went).

Unfortunately, many get out of that and then say "we now see that they can do no right".

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2013 7:57:08 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Aug 16, 2013 3:29:37 GMT -5 @ram said:

Yep, we're different from all the rest. The other ways have worldly problems, we don't. And so on it goes (or went).

Unfortunately, many get out of that and then say "we now see that they can do no right".

I actually think that a huge amount of that reaction is associated with the healing process. When you learn about the reactions to spiritual abuse (generally, not specific to F&W's) it all seems to fit in. I have even seem myself in this.

[Deleted]

Aug 16, 2013 8:52:31 GMT -5 @ram said:

Aug 16, 2013 7:57:08 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Unfortunately, many get out of that and then say "we now see that they can do no right".

I actually think that a huge amount of that reaction is associated with the healing process. When you learn about the reactions to spiritual abuse (generally, not specific to F&W's) it all seems to fit in. I have even seem myself in this.

You will also find it is part of the human condition. For those who are prone to go "all-in" when they believe something, then they will go "all-out" when they choose to disbelieve. Abuse may be the trigger for the change but not necessarily the cause. Many abused people work their way out of the abuse influence methodically rather than swinging to the opposite pole.