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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2013 13:42:17 GMT -5
I do question contradictions and inaccuracies. That's why I questioned yours. I haven't observed you questioning even one of the dogma's of the RCC yet.
Apologetics, galore,- but not one questioning.
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2013 13:51:12 GMT -5
Yes, some accept and some do not. I see the credibility of early works as very questionable mostly because of all the suppression and infighting among those bringing them forward. I also see dogma as man's interpretation of doctrine and therefore questionable. I simply cannot read about the violence and lack of coherence in the early churches and believe that much of the truth still remains. That's how I work. You look at the same material and see the opposite. I need more, you don't. You are comfortable believing the Church is right because they have written that they are because the Bible says they are. That seems to circular for me and could be quite deceiving since they were the ones that picked the books that went in the bible in the first place. Too much room for error or manipulation for me. Again, that's how I think. You miss the most important point. We must first profess Christ as Lord and Savior. The rest will follow. Where do we find Christ truly and substantially present here on earth? Where he said he would be. " in my Father's house ..." That doesn't seem to me to be the most important point
For the RCC, the most important point is believing they have the Keys to the Kingdom just because they say they do.
Knowing the history of the RCC & their practices, as snow pointed out, leaves a lot of doubt in my mind that they have anything even close to the so-called Keys to the Kingdom.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 13:53:08 GMT -5
You miss the most important point. We must first profess Christ as Lord and Savior. The rest will follow. Where do we find Christ truly and substantially present here on earth? Where he said he would be. " in my Father's house ..." So where is his father's house. Do you mean that the church is his father's house? I always thought God dwelled within each of us and we were his house. What am I missing here? I'm going to post the passage here and then PM you. After three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions, and all who heard him were astounded at his understanding and his answers.
When his parents saw him, they were astonished, and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you done this to us? Your father and I have been looking for you with great anxiety.” And he said to them, “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in my Father’s house?”
But they did not understand what he said to them. Luke 2:46-50
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 14:34:43 GMT -5
I haven't observed you questioning even one of the dogma's of the RCC yet.
Apologetics, galore,- but not one questioning.
PM'd you.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2013 15:03:22 GMT -5
Where do we find Christ truly and substantially present here on earth? Where he said he would be. " in my Father's house ..." God in heaven hath a treasure, Riches none may count or tell; Hath a deep eternal pleasure, Christ the Son, He loveth well. God hath here on earth a treasure, None but He its price may know— Deep, unfathomable pleasure, Christ revealed in saints below.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2013 15:06:04 GMT -5
I haven't observed you questioning even one of the dogma's of the RCC yet.
Apologetics, galore,- but not one questioning.
PM'd you. Why do you keep taking public discussions private?
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 15:23:35 GMT -5
Why do you keep taking public discussions private? I will not share their responses to me (not that you asked), but I will be happy to share my 2 recent responses to snow and dmich with you by PM if you wish. Let me know.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 15:26:52 GMT -5
Where do we find Christ truly and substantially present here on earth? Where he said he would be. " in my Father's house ..." God in heaven hath a treasure, Riches none may count or tell; Hath a deep eternal pleasure, Christ the Son, He loveth well. God hath here on earth a treasure, None but He its price may know— Deep, unfathomable pleasure, Christ revealed in saints below. That is true as well. Jesus is now substantially present in his Father's heavenly house. My response is how he was - and is now - substantially present in his Father's house on earth. Remember. He can be, and is, everywhere - at the same time.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2013 15:39:13 GMT -5
God in heaven hath a treasure, Riches none may count or tell; Hath a deep eternal pleasure, Christ the Son, He loveth well. God hath here on earth a treasure, None but He its price may know— Deep, unfathomable pleasure, Christ revealed in saints below. That is true as well. Jesus is now substantially present in his Father's heavenly house. My response is how he was - and is now - substantially present in his Father's house on earth. Remember. He can be, and is, everywhere - at the same time. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 15:58:36 GMT -5
That is true as well. Jesus is now substantially present in his Father's heavenly house. My response is how he was - and is now - substantially present in his Father's house on earth. Remember. He can be, and is, everywhere - at the same time. God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Okay. I have my sins, as does everyone, but since that passage was addressed to adulterers and the double-minded ... So I have one for you. Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?
But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts.
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, ...
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Post by snow on Sept 26, 2013 17:23:33 GMT -5
I've always been taught that God is in everything and everywhere. But I have a hard time with this conversation because I don't even know if God exists period.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 18:10:44 GMT -5
I've always been taught that God is in everything and everywhere. But I have a hard time with this conversation because I don't even know if God exists period. Spiritually, yes. The difference is in 'truly and substantially'. In substance, the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord.
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Post by fixit on Sept 26, 2013 18:25:32 GMT -5
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Okay. I have my sins, as does everyone, but since that passage was addressed to adulterers and the double-minded ... So I have one for you. Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?
But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts.
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, ... Just for the record I was not suggesting you personally are proud. Rather that religion leads to pride, and pride is counter-productive to a relationship with God.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 18:39:30 GMT -5
Okay. I have my sins, as does everyone, but since that passage was addressed to adulterers and the double-minded ... So I have one for you. Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?
But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts.
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, ... Just for the record I was not suggesting you personally are proud. Rather that religion leads to pride, and pride is counter-productive to a relationship with God. Okay. Thanks. But. I believe we are to know what we believe, and to believe what we know. Christ commanded his church to go to all nations and teach ... So. I think my answer would be the same. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope ...
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Post by snow on Sept 26, 2013 20:01:43 GMT -5
I've always been taught that God is in everything and everywhere. But I have a hard time with this conversation because I don't even know if God exists period. Spiritually, yes. The difference is in 'truly and substantially'. In substance, the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord. I see. I think I understand what you mean. It's just hard for me to relate in that fashion.
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Post by StAnne on Sept 26, 2013 20:49:50 GMT -5
Spiritually, yes. The difference is in 'truly and substantially'. In substance, the Body and Blood of our Risen Lord. I see. I think I understand what you mean. It's just hard for me to relate in that fashion. The deeper meanings of the Eucharistic narative in John 6.
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Post by Gene on Sept 26, 2013 20:57:30 GMT -5
- Is it any greater miracle than Conception by the power of the Holy Spirit with a human mother only?
- Is is any greater miracle than the Incarnation - Jesus' divine nature joined ever after to human nature?
- Is it any greater miracle than Jesus' body returning to life and raising himself Glorified, out of the tomb?
We believe these revelations of God through faith - to which God's grants us a measure of understanding and acceptance of His holy mysteries. (Just as He granted you the understanding of the Holy Trinity - Thanks be to God!)No, of course it's not a greater miracle. It's just that in my 66 years I have never heard of such a thing. How exactly did Jesus exit the womb of Mary anyway? Ummmm.... I'm not an expert, but I think the baby exits the same way the sperm enters. And we all know how the sperm entered Mary.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2013 21:14:45 GMT -5
No, of course it's not a greater miracle. It's just that in my 66 years I have never heard of such a thing. How exactly did Jesus exit the womb of Mary anyway? Ummmm.... I'm not an expert, but I think the baby exits the same way the sperm enters. And we all know how the sperm entered Mary. Does using a turkey baster preserve virginity?
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Post by dmmichgood on Sept 26, 2013 23:00:28 GMT -5
No, of course it's not a greater miracle. It's just that in my 66 years I have never heard of such a thing. How exactly did Jesus exit the womb of Mary anyway? Ummmm.... I'm not an expert, but I think the baby exits the same way the sperm enters. And we all know how the sperm entered Mary. Gene! didn't your mommie & daddy tell you the story about the "birds & bees?"
Well, I think you are old enough to be told!
However, I can't tell you because I never could figure out what 'birds & bees' have to do with one another!
Just too difficult for my poor brain to contemplate!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2013 23:14:57 GMT -5
Ummmm.... I'm not an expert, but I think the baby exits the same way the sperm enters. And we all know how the sperm entered Mary. Gene! didn't your mommie & daddy tell you the story about the "birds & bees?"
Well, I think you are old enough to be told!
However, I can't tell you because I never could figure out what 'birds & bees' have to do with one another!
Just too difficult for my poor brain to contemplate!
If they knew how the bees did it they'd probably faint.
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Post by irvinegrey on Sept 27, 2013 7:15:46 GMT -5
Ummmm.... I'm not an expert, but I think the baby exits the same way the sperm enters. And we all know how the sperm entered Mary. Does using a turkey baster preserve virginity? I read these comments with profound sadness. They mock the veracity of Holy Scripture and are nothing short of utter blasphemy. By all means you can reject the major teachings of Christianity but at least do it with some respect and reverence. By rejecting the virgin birth of Jesus Christ you, by implication reject the deity of Christ and the efficacy of His death on the cross to avert the wrath of God and atone for our sin. They really have no place on this thread!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 27, 2013 9:25:29 GMT -5
I don't see it that way at all. Perhaps it is because even though we experienced similarities in our early 'religion' - we have had very different experiences going forward. I know you don't see it that way. But many women do see it that way. The Bible is not a book about the value of women and imo does a great deal of harm against women. I personally do not like the message the Bible sends us about the value of women. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I can't understand how you can't see it, and you can't understand how I could see it. Just the way it is. I have been wondering about some of the biblical language in that it always speaks in the male genre as to what, why, who and when God does something to a person or speaks to a person, etc......it is always a male....HOWEVER Back to why Mary and any other woman suffers the burden of child bearing IS noted in Gen. AFTER God had thrust ADAM and EVE out of the Garden of Paradise, for both of their "disobedience" God mentions the "price" for EACH in that disobedience. ADAM seems to get the worst of it for he has to toil the ground in his own sweat, etc whereas Eve seems to garner redemption by childbearing. Also we read throughout the bible about different women who were barren and had to face "reproach" from other women AS WELL AS MEN! But when God opened their wombs, their reproach was taken away! And then again, a very contradictory statement IMO, God speaks about the barren women who's paps had not been sucked would end up with MORE children then the women who had had children. It all comes back to that which is spoken in Rev. where it speaks of the woman who had brought forth a son and the enemy was at enmity with her and he sought to do away with her, but safety had been provided for her.....but we know the Son was crucified........I don't think any woman knowing that Mary was ridden of an apparently normal pregnancy by a big "poof" would call her blessed.....for they would not understand......and the bible does say that other women will rise up and call her blessed for delivering the only begotten Son of God. Again, the bible declares that Jesus was "born" of Mary and apparently with only animals and Joseph to witness.......It's possible people riding in on camels and donkeys might have taken those animals to that barn or stable and might have noted that there was a pregnant woman in great pain of a ripe pregnancy and then some might have come to leave their animals AFTER the baby was born. I feel certain that IF there'd been a totally abnormal "birth" of the Lord, that the record would have sustained that and though I understand the Trinity, I understand because there is plenty of scripture that indicated that! I really feel that Jesus' being born naturally is just witness to the fact that he truly was born of the flesh, 100 per cent flesh himself........it's the God part of him that is the mystery of the gospel of Jesus Christ! IMO
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 27, 2013 9:29:30 GMT -5
Where do we find Christ truly and substantially present here on earth? Where he said he would be. " in my Father's house ..." God in heaven hath a treasure, Riches none may count or tell; Hath a deep eternal pleasure, Christ the Son, He loveth well. God hath here on earth a treasure, None but He its price may know— Deep, unfathomable pleasure, Christ revealed in saints below. BTW, both of you are speaking a truth....however one is speaking to Jesus' own words to his disciple "I go to prepare a place for you. My father's house has many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you.? This is speaking about the "father's house in heaven or eternal life, if you will". Whereas Fixit is reciting a verse from a well-known 2x2 hymn which speaks about what is on earth and where the Father dwells...in the saints "here below"....both things are truth but are speaking to 2 different places entirely!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 27, 2013 9:40:42 GMT -5
Okay. I have my sins, as does everyone, but since that passage was addressed to adulterers and the double-minded ... So I have one for you. Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?
But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts.
Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, ... Just for the record I was not suggesting you personally are proud. Rather that religion leads to pride, and pride is counter-productive to a relationship with God. This morning a realization about some of Jesus' words he spoke to his Apostles/disciples came to me....Jesus spoke in the 24th chapter of Matthew about what was to come and what the followers of Christ should be very careful about. He said that there would be some who would said Christ is here or Christ is over there, etc and for his disciples not to believe that. It just dawned on me that I feel Jesus was speaking to all of the "Christian denominations" that are found in the world.....I doubt there is any of those Christian denominations that haven't at one time or another stated that they were the "only true way"....just as the 2x2 speak today of their own manmade religion. It's a comfort to me when Jesus went on to speak that when the kingdom of God should come that Jesus would appear out of the east with his angels and trumpets will call his saints from the four winds and the angels will gather them all together with Jesus......but it says that "every eye" shall see him and "every knee" shall bow to him. So ALL that Jesus required for the gospel of Christ to go forward was just someone who knew about it and believed it to go tell people who didn't know anything about it...he did not require them to separate themselves off here and yon and give themselves ideations of "being the only true way" for that is man's way of doing things...man has to have the "best" over his fellow man...so this is the reason so many religious denominations have come into being and it is all about man's ideation that what he has is better then his fellow man.....which according to Jesus is NOT so! I keep thinking about the Christian Jews how they continued praying in the Temple, and they continued going into the synagogues to hear scripture read and expounded on and sometimes one of them got the chore of the expounding....which btw was a way of bringing the scripture alive in that Jesus had been with them and Jesus did suffer all the scriptures said he would and yes, Jesus was risen from the dead and yes, Jesus ascended into heaven and those 11 Apostles watched that happen....more the "2" witnessed that event and more then "2" spoke of it.....
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2013 9:59:28 GMT -5
Does using a turkey baster preserve virginity? I read these comments with profound sadness. They mock the veracity of Holy Scripture and are nothing short of utter blasphemy. By all means you can reject the major teachings of Christianity but at least do it with some respect and reverence. By rejecting the virgin birth of Jesus Christ you, by implication reject the deity of Christ and the efficacy of His death on the cross to avert the wrath of God and atone for our sin. They really have no place on this thread! You'll be hard-pressed to get a witness against 2x2ism among a core-constituency of the TMB. It goes something like, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" ... This world hates the doctrine of atonement.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 27, 2013 10:30:25 GMT -5
I read these comments with profound sadness. They mock the veracity of Holy Scripture and are nothing short of utter blasphemy. By all means you can reject the major teachings of Christianity but at least do it with some respect and reverence. By rejecting the virgin birth of Jesus Christ you, by implication reject the deity of Christ and the efficacy of His death on the cross to avert the wrath of God and atone for our sin. They really have no place on this thread! You'll be hard-pressed to get a witness against 2x2ism among a core-constituency of the TMB. It goes something like, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" ... This world hates the doctrine of atonement. This is a great spot for Irvine to tell us what he means by "virgin birth".....it might clear some things up for some of us....thanks!
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Post by snow on Sept 27, 2013 12:02:46 GMT -5
I know you don't see it that way. But many women do see it that way. The Bible is not a book about the value of women and imo does a great deal of harm against women. I personally do not like the message the Bible sends us about the value of women. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one because I can't understand how you can't see it, and you can't understand how I could see it. Just the way it is. I have been wondering about some of the biblical language in that it always speaks in the male genre as to what, why, who and when God does something to a person or speaks to a person, etc......it is always a male....HOWEVER Back to why Mary and any other woman suffers the burden of child bearing IS noted in Gen. AFTER God had thrust ADAM and EVE out of the Garden of Paradise, for both of their "disobedience" God mentions the "price" for EACH in that disobedience. ADAM seems to get the worst of it for he has to toil the ground in his own sweat, etc whereas Eve seems to garner redemption by childbearing. Also we read throughout the bible about different women who were barren and had to face "reproach" from other women AS WELL AS MEN! But when God opened their wombs, their reproach was taken away! And then again, a very contradictory statement IMO, God speaks about the barren women who's paps had not been sucked would end up with MORE children then the women who had had children. It all comes back to that which is spoken in Rev. where it speaks of the woman who had brought forth a son and the enemy was at enmity with her and he sought to do away with her, but safety had been provided for her.....but we know the Son was crucified........I don't think any woman knowing that Mary was ridden of an apparently normal pregnancy by a big "poof" would call her blessed.....for they would not understand......and the bible does say that other women will rise up and call her blessed for delivering the only begotten Son of God. Again, the bible declares that Jesus was "born" of Mary and apparently with only animals and Joseph to witness.......It's possible people riding in on camels and donkeys might have taken those animals to that barn or stable and might have noted that there was a pregnant woman in great pain of a ripe pregnancy and then some might have come to leave their animals AFTER the baby was born. I feel certain that IF there'd been a totally abnormal "birth" of the Lord, that the record would have sustained that and though I understand the Trinity, I understand because there is plenty of scripture that indicated that! I really feel that Jesus' being born naturally is just witness to the fact that he truly was born of the flesh, 100 per cent flesh himself........it's the God part of him that is the mystery of the gospel of Jesus Christ! IMO Thanks sharingtheriches.
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Post by snow on Sept 27, 2013 13:11:18 GMT -5
I read these comments with profound sadness. They mock the veracity of Holy Scripture and are nothing short of utter blasphemy. By all means you can reject the major teachings of Christianity but at least do it with some respect and reverence. By rejecting the virgin birth of Jesus Christ you, by implication reject the deity of Christ and the efficacy of His death on the cross to avert the wrath of God and atone for our sin. They really have no place on this thread! You'll be hard-pressed to get a witness against 2x2ism among a core-constituency of the TMB. It goes something like, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" ... This world hates the doctrine of atonement. Personally I don't hate the doctrine of atonement. I just don't see any need for it. The only time atonement is needed is if the doctrine of hell is taught first.
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