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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 12:24:05 GMT -5
You can't persecute without having power. Without power it is just criticism. Alternative religious movements cannot persecute the main denominations. The main denominations can persecute or aid in persecuting smaller groups and sects. And we know that they do. Alternative religious movements can potentially persecute their own members. It all has to do with the power relationships that exist. I don't see a lotta persecution going on these days outside of theocracies or terrorist groups. I think its being ludicrous and thin skinned to describe disagreement or criticism or personal views or main denominations as being persecution -- people can disagree and even hold to some intolerant beliefs without being persecutors. Where did you see "disagreement or criticism or personal views or main denominations" described as persecution? What I see as persecution is a thesis issued by a Baptist church college, approved by Queen's University Belfast that condemns a certain religious movement as a "dangerous cult" using antiquated church definitions. When the state sanctions the propaganda of a church college attacking another church, that is theocracy at work. So I guess you were right, no persecution outside of theocracies. |
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Post by blandie on Jun 25, 2013 12:30:38 GMT -5
Just a reminder, that finding a positive way to describe 2x2ism isn't our goal here. My goal is to use a word that accurately describes what it is -- so the fact that the word is negative isn't in itself enough reason not to use it. 2x2ism has always tried to put a positive twist even on the ugly aspects of their religion. This is not my aim. I think that it is good to be accurate too but I also get the point that some words have a lot of baggage that maybe doesn't apply to a particular group. In some ways Baptists might be described as a cult by some -- they sure started out that way -- though I think the 'dangerous' part probably is a reach. I think it would only be OK to use the 'dangerous cult' word only if you were really specific about how the word fit the group. Every cult isn't a Jonestown or a Waco and the dangers can be seen as physical or psychological or doctrinal or financial or any combination. |
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Post by blandie on Jun 25, 2013 12:43:23 GMT -5
Where did you see "disagreement or criticism or personal views or main denominations" described as persecution? What I see as persecution is a thesis issued by a Baptist church college, approved by Queen's University Belfast that condemns a certain religious movement as a "dangerous cult" using antiquated church definitions. You may have missed it -- even though your own words seem to reflect it -- but persecution is exactly how the F&W's describe any criticism when they talk about persecution. Its not that there is any campaign of bloodshed or discrimination being practiced against workers by Queen's University or elsewhere. The kneejerk reaction of F&W's is always to rally to an antitheists view and completely toss over and refuse anything coming from other christian groups and I guess that is part of the 'only way' mentality. Maybe that is hard to shake and what is really sad is friends I know who think that it is better for their kids to deny God completely rather than to get involved with or listen to other christian groups. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 12:46:47 GMT -5
Where did you see "disagreement or criticism or personal views or main denominations" described as persecution? What I see as persecution is a thesis issued by a Baptist church college, approved by Queen's University Belfast that condemns a certain religious movement as a "dangerous cult" using antiquated church definitions. You may have missed it -- even though your own words seem to reflect it -- but persecution is exactly how the F&W's describe any criticism when they talk about persecution. Its not that there is any campaign of bloodshed or discrimination being practiced against workers by Queen's University or elsewhere. The kneejerk reaction of F&W's is always to rally to an antitheists view and completely toss over and refuse anything coming from other christian groups and I guess that is part of the 'only way' mentality. Maybe that is hard to shake and what is really sad is friends I know who think that it is better for their kids to deny God completely rather than to get involved with or listen to other christian groups. I agree with you on that score. But if you want to break through that barrier of impermeability it's best done by sticking to details. I would suggest that Grey's accusation of 'cult' will automatically invalidate anything else he may have to say that could be to the betterment or improvement of life within the group. In fact, it will reinforce the phenomenon that you have described. |
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Post by blandie on Jun 25, 2013 12:57:48 GMT -5
It might be a reinforcement but thats a flaw in the group not in critics who have a right to criticize. Catholics do not regard criticism by Baptists as persecution nor do Baptists regard Catholic criticism as persecution -- even if the word 'cult' gets used. Criticism is gonna happen and F&W's have deflected it for a century and I don't think including the word 'cult' in the mix makes the slightest difference -- any disagreement with their views has always been persecution according to them and gets shut down completely one way or another. That is a level of intolerance of other thinking that I don't see outside of groups that get called cults -- but maybe theres another word to describe that without using the word cult.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 13:11:42 GMT -5
It might be a reinforcement but thats a flaw in the group not in critics who have a right to criticize. Catholics do not regard criticism by Baptists as persecution nor do Baptists regard Catholic criticism as persecution -- even if the word 'cult' gets used. Criticism is gonna happen and F&W's have deflected it for a century and I don't think including the word 'cult' in the mix makes the slightest difference -- any disagreement with their views has always been persecution according to them and gets shut down completely one way or another. That is a level of intolerance of other thinking that I don't see outside of groups that get called cults -- but maybe theres another word to describe that without using the word cult. The word persecution is not one that is blandied about (sorry for the pun) in the meetings or among the workers, at least these days anyway. In meetings, a lot of people express gratitude for living in a country that has freedom to worship, but persecution, no. There was probably some initial shock when anti-2x2 sites first appeared but for the most part, they are blissfully ignored these days. That's what happens when criticism is not constructive, but attempts to be destructive. I am not sure if destructive criticism would meet the standard of "persecution", but there is plenty of that out there. |
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Post by blandie on Jun 25, 2013 13:49:31 GMT -5
 The word still gets trotted out but maybe not everywhere. Its part and parcel of the modern-day apostles thing and when you ask about persecution the answer still refers to criticism and not real persecution. I think it still gets into sermons now and again -- II Tim 3:12 'Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution' though I'd have to go through some recent notes to confirm. When you ask a Catholic or Baptist or other about persecution they'll point to recent examples of people being killed or tortured so there is a big disconnect between that and the way F&W's see persecution.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 14:07:54 GMT -5
The word still gets trotted out but maybe not everywhere. Its part and parcel of the modern-day apostles thing and when you ask about persecution the answer still refers to criticism and not real persecution. I think it still gets into sermons now and again -- II Tim 3:12 'Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution' though I'd have to go through some recent notes to confirm. When you ask a Catholic or Baptist or other about persecution they'll point to recent examples of people being killed or tortured so there is a big disconnect between that and the way F&W's see persecution. A lot of mainstream Christians see persecution in the removal of Christmas from schools and other venues, the removal of the Ten Commandments from law courts,.....and there are a number of other examples as well. Here is what one US pastor says: "Discrimination, intolerance, hatred, bigotry, bullying, and prejudice are “soft” forms of persecution (comparatively) that are growing at an alarming rate here in America. And these are only some of the ways that we are seeing this growing trend of persecution of Christians in America being expressed. Yes religious persecution in the U.S. does occur and it should not be tolerated just like violence and religious persecution shouldn’t be tolerated anywhere in the world." parsonrayphe.com/ |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 14:09:50 GMT -5
The word still gets trotted out but maybe not everywhere. Its part and parcel of the modern-day apostles thing and when you ask about persecution the answer still refers to criticism and not real persecution. I think it still gets into sermons now and again -- II Tim 3:12 'Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution' though I'd have to go through some recent notes to confirm. When you ask a Catholic or Baptist or other about persecution they'll point to recent examples of people being killed or tortured so there is a big disconnect between that and the way F&W's see persecution. It's a good point. Generally criticism is not persecution, unless it is targeted unfairly against a specific group. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 14:11:04 GMT -5
What hat Just a reminder, that finding a positive way to describe 2x2ism isn't our goal here. My goal is to use a word that accurately describes what it is -- so the fact that the word is negative isn't in itself enough reason not to use it. 2x2ism has always tried to put a positive twist even on the ugly aspects of their religion. This is not my aim. . If you want to accurately describe something, then just describe it, and don't call names. But don't listen to me, listen to the experts at INFORM, supported by the London School of Economics and the British govt. www.inform.ac/when-is-a-religion-a-cultThis seems to be some of the worse logic I have heard for a long time .. A thief an thief -- deception is deception -- a hypocrite is a hypocrite .. and a cult is a cult. They all could well be classified as negative labels. They fill a useful purpose in description and communication between ourselves, and should be used when they are appropriate and true. The 2x2 idea that negatives should not be used about themselves is simply a product of the worst kind of egoism and self-righteousness that exists. If 2x2ism fills the criteria for a cult, then cult is the suitable word to use in its description -- And there are wiser men than me, that seem to feel that this is true. Another example: I am well conscious of the 2x2 redefinition of the label deceptive to be tactful -- for example when denying their TV rule system.. The honest word to describe this is deceitful -- not tactful.. So I see where your logic is coming from -- but I definately can't accept it!! |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 14:12:47 GMT -5
Negative labels serve no purpose other than rhetorically fanning the flames. If you want to accurately describe something, then just describe it, and don't call names. But don't listen to me, listen to the experts at INFORM, supported by the London School of Economics and the British govt. www.inform.ac/when-is-a-religion-a-cult This seems to be some of the worse logic I have heard for a long time .. A thief an thief -- deception is deception -- a hypocrite is a hypocrite .. and a cult is a cult. They are all could well be negative labels. They fill a useful purpose in description and communication between ourselves, and should be used when they are appropriate and true. The 2x2 idea that negatives should not be used about themselves is simply a product of the worst kind of egoism and self-righteousness that exists. If 2x2ism fills the criteria for a cult, then cult is the suitable word to use in its description -- And there are wiser men than me, that seem to feel that this is true. Another example: I am well conscious of the 2x2 redefinition of the label deceptive to be tactful -- for example when denying their TV rule system.. The honest word to describe this is deceitful -- not tactful.. So I see where your logic is coming from -- but I definately can't accept it!! None of those examples you provide, except "cult", are labels. The other words have a specific denotative meaning and can be used objectively. But the term "cult" is culturally constructed. That is, a cult, in the theological sense, is a kind of Christian described in a derogatory fashion. Yeah, it is bad logic when you don't get the logic right. Regarding the "wiser men", I suggest you read the link. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 14:22:27 GMT -5
This seems to be some of the worse logic I have heard for a long time .. A thief an thief -- deception is deception -- a hypocrite is a hypocrite .. and a cult is a cult. They are all could well be negative labels. They fill a useful purpose in description and communication between ourselves, and should be used when they are appropriate and true. The 2x2 idea that negatives should not be used about themselves is simply a product of the worst kind of egoism and self-righteousness that exists. If 2x2ism fills the criteria for a cult, then cult is the suitable word to use in its description -- And there are wiser men than me, that seem to feel that this is true. Another example: I am well conscious of the 2x2 redefinition of the label deceptive to be tactful -- for example when denying their TV rule system.. The honest word to describe this is deceitful -- not tactful.. So I see where your logic is coming from -- but I definately can't accept it!! None of those examples you provide, except "cult", are labels. The other words have a specific denotative meaning and can be used objectively. But the term "cult" is culturally constructed. That is, a cult, in the theological sense, is a kind of Christian described in a derogatory fashion. Yeah, it is bad logic when you don't get the logic right. I don't really understand your enormous phobia about the usage of word 'cult' when used on this board-- it is an English noun of the same dignity as many other negative descriptive words -- With an equal right to a place in the dictionary and our vocabulary as most other words -- Trying to delete it from the English language so that it won't be used about 2x2ism is hardly going to work! |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 15:33:45 GMT -5
None of those examples you provide, except "cult", are labels. The other words have a specific denotative meaning and can be used objectively. But the term "cult" is culturally constructed. That is, a cult, in the theological sense, is a kind of Christian described in a derogatory fashion. Yeah, it is bad logic when you don't get the logic right. I don't really understand your enormous phobia about the usage of word 'cult' when used on this board-- it is an English noun of the same dignity as many other negative descriptive words -- With an equal right to a place in the dictionary and our vocabulary as most other words -- Trying to delete it from the English language so that it won't be used about 2x2ism is hardly going to work! You say that you "don't understand", but what did you think of the link from INFORM? It was there for a reason. As far as deleting "cult" from the English language, that won't happen until we see the end of religious intolerance, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Yes, when you use the word, as INFORM says, it says more about you than about who you're talking about. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 16:27:44 GMT -5
I don't really understand your enormous phobia about the usage of word 'cult' when used on this board-- it is an English noun of the same dignity as many other negative descriptive words -- With an equal right to a place in the dictionary and our vocabulary as most other words -- Trying to delete it from the English language so that it won't be used about 2x2ism is hardly going to work! You say that you "don't understand", but what did you think of the link from INFORM? It was there for a reason. As far as deleting "cult" from the English language, that won't happen until we see the end of religious intolerance, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Yes, when you use the word, as INFORM says, it says more about you than about who you're talking about. I think we are getting closer to an understanding now -- The word thief will be around and long as there are thieves, and hypocricy as long as there are hypocrites --- and the word cult won't be deleted until there are no more cults on the earth. And like you said, it doesn't seem like it's going to happen soon. Until then, we are likely to disagree on where, how and when these words suitably and effectfully can be used because thieves never like to be called thieves -- hypocrites hate being described as such, and as we have noticed, cults resent being called cults. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 16:32:13 GMT -5
You say that you "don't understand", but what did you think of the link from INFORM? It was there for a reason. As far as deleting "cult" from the English language, that won't happen until we see the end of religious intolerance, and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Yes, when you use the word, as INFORM says, it says more about you than about who you're talking about. I think we are getting closer to an understanding now -- The word thief will be around and long as there are thieves, and hypocricy as long as there are hypocrites --- and the word cult won't be deleted until there are no more cults on the earth. And like you said, its not going to happen soon. When people display ignorance on a particular subject I like to post a link or two. Have you read it? If you don't want to, just say so, and I won't waste anymore of your time. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 16:50:09 GMT -5
When people display ignorance on a particular subject I like to post a link or two. Have you read it? If you don't want to, just say so, and I won't waste anymore of your time. Yes Mr What hat, I have read your link -- I also am in the process of reading Mr Greys book -- Weighing the credibility of the two against each other isn't much of a issue -- with a quick look at the obvious merits. However I haven't managed to make it through "The shape of a shapeless movement" yet -- See if I change my mind by the time I am finished. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 25, 2013 17:19:24 GMT -5
What do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left bitter, unwilling, wanting an easy way, gone mental and any other derogatroy name they like. Is that persecution or do they like to have the lable for themselves. The group loves to be presecutied so they can claim they are on the right track - remaining victims instead of taking responsibiity for their actions. They see it as something to take advantage of. You know love, joy, peace, acceptance is not fruit that this group admires. Suffering and persection on the other hand are.
So back to my question, what is it called when the 2x2s ridicule those who have left? A larger group against a single person or family. The group is based on persecuting everyone else but when it comes to them well, its called persecution.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 17:48:19 GMT -5
When people display ignorance on a particular subject I like to post a link or two. Have you read it? If you don't want to, just say so, and I won't waste anymore of your time. Yes Mr What hat, I have read your link -- I also am in the process of reading Mr Greys book -- Weighing the credibility of the two against each other isn't much of a issue -- with a quick look at the obvious merits. However I haven't managed to make it through "The shape of a shapeless movement" yet -- See if I change my mind by the time I am finished. Thank you Edgar. I do very much appreciate the effort and look forward to your observations. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 18:01:14 GMT -5
What do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left bitter, unwilling, wanting an easy way, gone mental and any other derogatroy name they like. Is that persecution or do they like to have the lable for themselves. The group loves to be presecutied so they can claim they are on the right track - remaining victims instead of taking responsibiity for their actions. They see it as something to take advantage of. You know love, joy, peace, acceptance is not fruit that this group admires. Suffering and persection on the other hand are. So back to my question, what is it called when the 2x2s ridicule those who have left? A larger group against a single person or family. The group is based on persecuting everyone else but when it comes to them well, its called persecution. Persecution, marginalisation, victimisation. Take your pick. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 18:08:30 GMT -5
Incidentally, the book just came out. So we haven't seen any effects yet in terms of negative effects. We do know that larger groups smeared as cults like the Mormons and JWs suffer for it. There is concern for many smaller religious movements that were under the radar previously, like the 2x2s, so called. With the Internet everything changes and no one really knows the long term impact. I believe we have lost religious liberty to quite an extent. But the good side is that many abuses of the past are coming to light.
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Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2013 18:34:26 GMT -5
What do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left bitter, unwilling, wanting an easy way, gone mental and any other derogatroy name they like. Are you suggesting that Mr Grey's bad behavior is justified by friends and workers bad behavior? |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 25, 2013 19:07:10 GMT -5
I asked what do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left derogatory names? Didn't see any mention of Grey in my post.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 19:11:36 GMT -5
I asked what do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left derogatory names? Didn't see any mention of Grey in my post. I took it straight up. Did that help? |
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Post by findingtruth on Jun 25, 2013 19:30:38 GMT -5
HF, best of luck in attempting to get a reasonable answer to your question. You make a simple point by asking a simple straightforward question and there's always someone around to do the typical tap dance.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 20:15:07 GMT -5
HF, best of luck in attempting to get a reasonable answer to your question. You make a simple point by asking a simple straightforward question and there's always someone around to do the typical tap dance. At least she is getting a tap dance! I haven't been getting any answers lately! I feel so, so, shunned, ignored and demeaned......  |
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Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2013 21:10:57 GMT -5
What do you call it when the 2x2s call those who have left bitter, unwilling, wanting an easy way, gone mental and any other derogatroy name they like. Is that persecution or do they like to have the lable for themselves. The group loves to be presecutied so they can claim they are on the right track - remaining victims instead of taking responsibiity for their actions. They see it as something to take advantage of. You know love, joy, peace, acceptance is not fruit that this group admires. Suffering and persection on the other hand are. So back to my question, what is it called when the 2x2s ridicule those who have left? A larger group against a single person or family. The group is based on persecuting everyone else but when it comes to them well, its called persecution. I would call it "self-righteousness". Another word for it would be "unnecessary". What has this to do with Mr Grey's accusation that the 2x2 church is a "particularly dangerous cult"? |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 25, 2013 21:31:40 GMT -5
Everything to do with it. They claim they are being persecuted when they are called derogatory names. It is self righteousness when they call others names - yes that makes sense.
What do you call it when the spell check on here does not work. Any spelling mistakes please refer to the admin, I mean spell check.
FWI - can't we think of a better name than the 2x2s.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 25, 2013 23:43:58 GMT -5
It was called the sect of the Nazarenes, not a cult. And to mention persecution, one of the marks of a cult is having a persecution complex. Now I sat in meetings listening to the workers persecuting the Christian church but when it happens the other way round it is called persecution. What do you call it when the workers persecute the Christian church - that's right, the truth. I might call it the pot calling the kettle black.!!!! First of all, how do workers PERSECUTE the Christian church? Secondly, what are workers if not Christian? Your biases are glaring. |
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