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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 24, 2013 22:59:54 GMT -5
One thing I thought about in this was the lack of other documentation out there about the group. It's a pretty obscure group and anyone evaluating the thesis would have nothing to even compare it to. How would they know if it was a good paper or not if it was the first real research done on the group in the first place. They probably weren't looking so much at the content but more on how the research was done because there is nothing to 'disprove' what he says that they could refer to. I too wonder if the conclusion is the same in the paper as the book. That is true. Any first thesis on a topic is subject to critiquing by further researchers -- all of whom are supposed to advance insight into the topic in some way. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 23:14:07 GMT -5
I also took note of that when I read it. But there is no conjunction between the two sentences, so the second sentence may be added simply to recommend himself as an authoritative writer. The statement actually says nothing about the similarity of the book to his thesis. The first sentence says nothing about the thesis. The second sentence says nothing about the book? So the word this refers to his thesis and not the book? If the advertising poster is an indication of the standard of Mr Grey's work it doesn't say much for his academic ability. That is the way I would interpret that passage fixit, that the book IS the thesis. I would still like to compare the two, particularly the conclusions. |
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Post by StAnne on Jun 24, 2013 23:22:37 GMT -5
The first sentence says nothing about the thesis. The second sentence says nothing about the book? So the word this refers to his thesis and not the book? If the advertising poster is an indication of the standard of Mr Grey's work it doesn't say much for his academic ability. That is the way I would interpret that passage fixit, that the book IS the thesis. I would still like to compare the two, particularly the conclusions. Might the thesis be available in the library of the university of study or the one granting the degree? You may need to make a trip to Ireland ... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2013 23:25:44 GMT -5
That is the way I would interpret that passage fixit, that the book IS the thesis. I would still like to compare the two, particularly the conclusions. Might the thesis be available in the library of the university of study or the one granting the degree? You may need to make a trip to Ireland ... Would love to go back. I viewed the actual John Long journal last time which was very cool.....next, the actual Irvine Grey Thesis! |
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Post by fixit on Jun 24, 2013 23:34:55 GMT -5
The first sentence says nothing about the thesis. The second sentence says nothing about the book? So the word this refers to his thesis and not the book? If the advertising poster is an indication of the standard of Mr Grey's work it doesn't say much for his academic ability. That is the way I would interpret that passage fixit, that the book IS the thesis. I would still like to compare the two, particularly the conclusions. I would as well. Irvine Grey might confirm for us whether the two are the same or not. The wording is ambiguous for sure. |
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Post by StAnne on Jun 24, 2013 23:54:20 GMT -5
Might the thesis be available in the library of the university of study or the one granting the degree? You may need to make a trip to Ireland ... Would love to go back. I viewed the actual John Long journal last time which was very cool.....next, the actual Irvine Grey Thesis! Well there ya have it! The perfect reason to go again.  |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 25, 2013 0:31:31 GMT -5
That is the way I would interpret that passage fixit, that the book IS the thesis. I would still like to compare the two, particularly the conclusions. Might the thesis be available in the library of the university of study or the one granting the degree? You may need to make a trip to Ireland ... Yes - theses are available. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:18:10 GMT -5
I hope Mr Grey made a favorable mention of convention stew in his thesis. I hope he gave us the recipe!! Perhaps the recipe for convention stew is simply to go to convention? I know that Bert agrees with this, but with the caveat of docking "Perhaps" and the question mark! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:34:15 GMT -5
Bert this, Bert that... better start using my aliases again. Well, other aliases, anyhow.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:40:16 GMT -5
Bert this, Bert that... better start using my alias again. No point Bert. People know you as Bert. I regard anything that I present on this board as being seconded by yourself, or even originating from yourself. You see, someone has to stand in for you in your absence! When I refer to "Bert," people know who I mean. What are you talking about anyway? "Bert" IS your alias. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:42:31 GMT -5
Sorry, wasn't aware I was "absent"
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 25, 2013 3:44:52 GMT -5
Bert, have you been secretly compiling your list while you have been 'absent'. I want to see if I have made it onto the role of honour this time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:48:33 GMT -5
Why is it that only the small movements, and those outside the mainstream, get the "cult" label for negative behaviours that every church has? a term and then using it to put smaller people down is the classic technique of the big bully who has nothing better to say about himself. I like the use of the above emboldened word, even though it evokes a high level of emotion. It underlines what I have been saying all along about the word "cult" becoming by and large "illegitimate." I also see something more dangerous than the "big bully" technique. There is the self-righteous technique of awarding oneself a clean bill of health, often without proper thought to their own standards of spiritual hygiene. "We're all right Jack, we are NOT a cult." These guys (the 5% or really bad ones) are! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 3:56:29 GMT -5
"He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes"
NLT
better be in a cult with jesus
doesnt say he was popular or in the biggest church in the world
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Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2013 4:06:09 GMT -5
Good point HW.
Those who persecuted the Way 2000 years ago probably used terminology similar to "a particularly dangerous cult".
Acts 24:5 We have found this man to be a troublemaker who is constantly stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes.
6 Furthermore, he was trying to desecrate the Temple when we arrested him.
8 You can find out the truth of our accusations by examining him yourself.”
9 Then the other Jews chimed in, declaring that everything Tertullus said was true.
10 The governor then motioned for Paul to speak. Paul said, “I know, sir, that you have been a judge of Jewish affairs for many years, so I gladly present my defense before you.
11 You can quickly discover that I arrived in Jerusalem no more than twelve days ago to worship at the Temple.
12 My accusers never found me arguing with anyone in the Temple, nor stirring up a riot in any synagogue or on the streets of the city.
13 These men cannot prove the things they accuse me of doing.
14 “But I admit that I follow the Way, which they call a cult. I worship the God of our ancestors, and I firmly believe the Jewish law and everything written in the prophets.
Footnotes:
24:1 Greek some elders and an orator.
24:6 Some manuscripts add an expanded conclusion to verse 6, all of verse 7, and an additional phrase in verse 8: We would have judged him by our law, 7 but Lysias, the commander of the garrison, came and violently took him away from us, 8 commanding his accusers to come before you.
24:20 Greek Sanhedrin.
24:23 Greek a centurion.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 4:09:03 GMT -5
"What sorrow awaits you who are praised by the crowds, for their ancestors also praised false prophets."
Luke 6:26 NLT
""How terrible it will be for you when everyone says nice things about you,"
ISV
kind of reminds me of famous tv preachers and charismatic evangelists and the celebrity cult aroudn the pope
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 4:13:54 GMT -5
One thing I thought about in this was the lack of other documentation out there about the group. It's a pretty obscure group and anyone evaluating the thesis would have nothing to even compare it to. How would they know if it was a good paper or not if it was the first real research done on the group in the first place. They probably weren't looking so much at the content but more on how the research was done because there is nothing to 'disprove' what he says that they could refer to. I too wonder if the conclusion is the same in the paper as the book. That is true. Any first thesis on a topic is subject to critiquing by further researchers -- all of whom are supposed to advance insight into the topic in some way. I don't agree with the statement there is a lack of other documentation out there about the group. Yes the group is obscure, but there is plenty of source material out there to compare Mr Grey's thesis/book to. They may not be "academic works" but this should not interfere with their validity. After all, what better evidence than several independent sources all saying much the same thing. It's out there in sufficient abundance. I would suggest at least this approach. Judge Mr Grey's final work against Cherie's online book. She has been involved in researching the sect for far longer than Mr Grey, grew up on convention grounds, professed for many years, etc. Her painstaking labours and her desire for accuracy, whatever you believe her motives or standards to be, are in my opinion of such a high standard that the validity of a University degree awarded for a thesis about the group can be safely be judged against it. I doubt there exists another measure which comes remotely near this? This is not stating that other sources do not have value or additional information. It is seeking the best place to start. Of course we cannot expect like for like in comparing Mr Grey's book with Cherie's work, but I will give you an example of what I mean. I know the culture of the sect in Scotland, especially in my region, in my own lifespan, and that of the generation before me, even going back to the late 1920's. There are many practices, beliefs and traits which occurred many years ago which have been conveniently forgotten, even denied these days. However, quite a few years ago I obtained a photocopy book of press articles extracted from the Irish newspaper "The Impartial Reporter." I did not study it all, nor have I done so since, but from the majority of it that I did read, I found myself agreeing from first hand experience, or from what I heard from the generation before me, with about two-thirds of the claims made about the sect. From the remainder, I could not say yeah or nay to, BUT from what I recall, the allegations which were not specific to my own experience or knowledge were in fact very compatible in nature to matters within my experience and knowledge. I found nothing within the articles that I could state "that is a falsehood" to! So for me, at the time, the Impartial Reporter did indeed live up to its name in its reporting of the 2x2 sect and with the caveat that I have not given that book of articles a full and proper study and my recollections are quite a few years distant now, I have no hesitation in declaring it to be at least a reasonably accurate record of events from those earlier times. Just as I judged (fairly in my opinion) the Impartial Reporter against personal knowledge and experience, I feel that Mr Grey's work could safely be judged against Cherie's work. I am aware of no better standard to compare it to. Again do not expect like for like, but use a reasonable mind in assessing the thesis/book. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 4:28:05 GMT -5
"He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes" NLT better be in a cult with jesus doesnt say he was popular or in the biggest church in the world By my understanding Jesus was/is the greatest "cult" leader of all time. Viewing the term in its basic meaning, before it was "bastardized," I can easily see good cults, good cultic practices and so on, as well as bad cults and bad cultic practices, something like human nature. In his role as cult leader, he evokes a huge amount of "good" emotions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 4:33:58 GMT -5
Jim'll made the following observation. (At last we are punching through the bastardization of the word "cult")
Good point HW.
Those who persecuted the Way 2000 years ago probably used terminology similar to "a particularly dangerous cult".
Acts 24:5 We have found this man to be a troublemaker who is constantly stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes.
Remember too that Jesus was not averse to using language of the same strength as "particularly dangerous cult" against the Pharisees' practices!
The term "knickers in a twist" keeps coming to mind with these issues.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 25, 2013 4:51:45 GMT -5
It was called the sect of the Nazarenes, not a cult. And to mention persecution, one of the marks of a cult is having a persecution complex. Now I sat in meetings listening to the workers persecuting the Christian church but when it happens the other way round it is called persecution. What do you call it when the workers persecute the Christian church - that's right, the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 5:02:56 GMT -5
It was called the sect of the Nazarenes, not a cult. And to mention persecution, one of the marks of a cult is having a persecution complex. Now I sat in meetings listening to the workers persecuting the Christian church but when it happens the other way round it is called persecution. What do you call it when the workers persecute the Christian church? I have sufficient faith to believe this. The wisdom of the opening verses of Matthew 7 is being played out in these last few years, more or less as a result of what you say HF. The 2x2 church are only being judged by the measure they have meted out to other churches, but perhaps more professionally in some cases. This statement is not made with an anti 2x2 view but is made on account of true circumstances and scriptural advice. The shoe is merely on the other foot. Just accept why things are coming back to haunt the sect and move on. The sect has brought it all upon itself. Unfortunately many of those who were most culpable have long since gone, leaving the current generation to pick up the tab. That's it in its simplest form. No malice from me here, just simple truth. Accept and move on. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 5:03:47 GMT -5
"What sorrow awaits you who are praised by the crowds, for their ancestors also praised false prophets." Luke 6:26 NLT ""How terrible it will be for you when everyone says nice things about you," ISV kind of reminds me of famous tv preachers and charismatic evangelists and the celebrity cult aroudn the pope Yeh, the lonely narrow way of the Cross leads to home; and the broad popular and attractive way of the in- crowd leads elsewhere.  |
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Post by fixit on Jun 25, 2013 5:31:35 GMT -5
The sect has brought it all upon itself. Unfortunately many of those who were most culpable have long since gone, leaving the current generation to pick up the tab. Good point Ramsey, my fine-horned friend. Kids at school shouldn't have to take the heat for the errors of past generations. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 6:11:06 GMT -5
The sect has brought it all upon itself. Unfortunately many of those who were most culpable have long since gone, leaving the current generation to pick up the tab. Good point Ramsey, my fine-horned friend. Kids at school shouldn't have to take the heat for the errors of past generations. Context Jim, context! This isn't child's play. Also, don't forget that some of the errors from the past are still being perpetuated today. You can be a big help in resolving those things internally! |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 9:48:17 GMT -5
It was called the sect of the Nazarenes, not a cult. And to mention persecution, one of the marks of a cult is having a persecution complex. Now I sat in meetings listening to the workers persecuting the Christian church but when it happens the other way round it is called persecution. What do you call it when the workers persecute the Christian church - that's right, the truth. You can't persecute without having power. Without power it is just criticism. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 9:50:30 GMT -5
It was called the sect of the Nazarenes, not a cult. And to mention persecution, one of the marks of a cult is having a persecution complex. Now I sat in meetings listening to the workers persecuting the Christian church but when it happens the other way round it is called persecution. What do you call it when the workers persecute the Christian church - that's right, the truth. You can't persecute without having power. Without power it is just criticism. Alternative religious movements cannot persecute the main denominations. The main denominations can persecute or aid in persecuting smaller groups and sects. And we know that they do. Alternative religious movements can potentially persecute their own members. It all has to do with the power relationships that exist. |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 25, 2013 9:56:29 GMT -5
What hat Just a reminder, that finding a positive way to describe 2x2ism isn't our goal here. My goal is to use a word that accurately describes what it is -- so the fact that the word is negative isn't in itself enough reason not to use it. 2x2ism has always tried to put a positive twist even on the ugly aspects of their religion. This is not my aim. Negative labels serve no purpose other than rhetorically fanning the flames. If you want to accurately describe something, then just describe it, and don't call names. But don't listen to me, listen to the experts at INFORM, supported by the London School of Economics and the British govt. www.inform.ac/when-is-a-religion-a-cult |
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Post by blandie on Jun 25, 2013 12:16:10 GMT -5
You can't persecute without having power. Without power it is just criticism. Alternative religious movements cannot persecute the main denominations. The main denominations can persecute or aid in persecuting smaller groups and sects. And we know that they do. Alternative religious movements can potentially persecute their own members. It all has to do with the power relationships that exist. I don't see a lotta persecution going on these days outside of theocracies or terrorist groups. I think its being ludicrous and thin skinned to describe disagreement or criticism or personal views or main denominations as being persecution -- people can disagree and even hold to some intolerant beliefs without being persecutors. |
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