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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 17:18:57 GMT -5
 A former member of Westboro Baptist Church has revealed how radically her life has changed since leaving the extremist 'hate cult'. Four years ago, Libby Phelps Alvarez was picketing Obama's inauguration, taking part in anti-gay and anti-Semitic protests, had never had a haircut, and unable to travel, was confined to the borders of the U.S. Now age 29, after fleeing the church, she is finding peace with her new life. But walking away from everything she’d ever known, including praying for homosexual, Jewish and Chinese people to die, wasn’t easy, she told the Kansas City Star: 'That first year, there would be days it would hit me really hard.' Read more: Daily Mail Article - Woman Escaped Baptist Church Hate CultWhat makes a "dangerous cult"? Is it a belief system that is different to mine? Is it a belief system that is different to the most popular where we live? Is it a belief system that is different to the most popular in the world? Is it a belief system that causes people to blow up abortion clinics, kill homosexuals, kill schoolgirls for attending school? |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 17:39:07 GMT -5
A Baptist Church. This is not the teaching of Baptist churches in general. Because someone is an abuser it does not mean that everyone is an abuser. They work on a different principal to the 2x2s. The Baptist movement as a whole is not a cult. This church does not represent the teachings of the Baptist Church. The workers represent the teachings of their movement.
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 17:57:36 GMT -5
What makes a "dangerous cult" HF? This is dangerous IMO, and I can't imagine workers doing it:  |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 18:14:11 GMT -5
I never said it was not dangerous. It is dangerous. I said this group does not represent the Baptist movement as a whole. The workers on the other hand do represent their movement as a whole. That is the difference.
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Post by Greg on Jun 21, 2013 18:17:52 GMT -5
Some members of the Westboro Baptist Church might be in danger if they cross the wrong people in their demonstrations.
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 18:25:31 GMT -5
I never said it was not dangerous. It is dangerous. I said this group does not represent the Baptist movement as a whole. The workers on the other hand do represent their movement as a whole. That is the difference. So part of the Baptist movement is a dangerous cult? I agree HF, it seems pretty dangerous to me. Do you think they believe in the Trinity? |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 19:15:58 GMT -5
I never said it was not dangerous. It is dangerous. I said this group does not represent the Baptist movement as a whole. The workers on the other hand do represent their movement as a whole. That is the difference. So part of the Baptist movement is a dangerous cult? I agree HF, it seems pretty dangerous to me. Do you think they believe in the Trinity? The Westboro Baptist church is a cult which does not make the Baptist organisation a cult. Because one person in a church is a sex offender does that make the whole denomination sex offenders? The Westboro Baptist church is one church within the Baptist movement. They do not represent the Baptist movement as a whole unlike the workers who represent their church as a whole. Tell me what are the marks of a cult the Baptist movement as a whole has? Look at their constitution and see what you can come up with? Maybe you would say because the 2x2s are a cult (as defined by Grey) then all churches are cults. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 19:28:51 GMT -5
So part of the Baptist movement is a dangerous cult? I agree HF, it seems pretty dangerous to me. Do you think they believe in the Trinity? The Westboro Baptist church is a cult which does not make the Baptist organisation a cult. Because one person in a church is a sex offender does that make the whole denomination sex offenders? The Westboro Baptist church is one church within the Baptist movement. They do not represent the Baptist movement as a whole unlike the workers who represent their church as a whole. Tell me what are the marks of a cult the Baptist movement as a whole has? Look at their constitution and see what you can come up with? Maybe you would say because the 2x2s are a cult (as defined by Grey) then all churches are cults. , so which constitution would you like me to look at? You've given me an idea for a book title "Dangerous Cults Within the Baptist Movement". |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 19:34:44 GMT -5
Dangerous cults within Christianity would be interesting.
I am talking about the Baptist denomination, not the break aways from it.
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 19:40:31 GMT -5
Dangerous cults within Christianity would be interesting. I am talking about the Baptist denomination, not the break aways from it. If you give me the link to the Baptist denomination I'll check out their constitution (but I doubt there is such a thing as the Baptist denomination). |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 19:42:18 GMT -5
The Westboro church is based on the doctrine of Primitive Baptist and Calvinism.
Their core beliefs are:
o Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of God’s Elect
o The Bible – the King James Version – is inerrant and infallible
o The Five Points of Calvinism are correct
Does that doctrine make them a dangerous cult?
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Post by What Hat on Jun 21, 2013 19:42:40 GMT -5
I never said it was not dangerous. It is dangerous. I said this group does not represent the Baptist movement as a whole. The workers on the other hand do represent their movement as a whole. That is the difference. The thing is though ... Westboro Baptist Church is a product of orthodox Christian teaching, you know, the kind that Irvine Grey holds up as the perfect standard. Workers have done some bad things, but none of them have ever done anything like the Westboro group. It's fine for the Baptists to now disown Westboro, but they are still fruit of the Baptist vine. (I'm not trying to slam Baptists particularly but the business of deciding who is dangerous or harmful based on what theology they endorse or believe is nonsense. Baptists, Catholics or friends and workers ... I don't see that harm comes from their doctrine. I believe harm lies more in self-righteousness, pride, exclusiveness, judgementalism, legalism, and other qualities, as can be applied to ANY doctrine in ANY religion.) So within the Baptists .. some wonderful people and wonderful work being done, and then there are the judgemental, self-righteous, legalistic ones as well. They pretty much share the same doctrine though. I'm learning that within a denomination you can find quite a difference from one congregation to another. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 19:43:31 GMT -5
You don't believe there is such thing as the Baptist denomination?
You wouldn't be upset over Irvine's book would you?
I can assure you Irvine lives a long way from Westboro and would hardly be a member of that church.
I have not read where the lady from Westboro says Baptists are a cult. She is talking about West boro not the Baptist denomination.
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Post by What Hat on Jun 21, 2013 19:44:44 GMT -5
The Westboro church is based on the doctrine of Primitive Baptist and Calvinism. Their core beliefs are: o Jesus Christ died to atone for the sins of God’s Elect o The Bible – the King James Version – is inerrant and infallible o The Five Points of Calvinism are correct Does that doctrine make them a dangerous cult? I want to state on the record, that I read this after my post just below yours. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 19:49:55 GMT -5
The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American unaffiliated Baptist church, it is not part of the Baptist denomination. Read it for yourself. it is an independent church. It uses the name only, it is not part of the Baptist denomination.
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 19:50:14 GMT -5
You wouldn't be upset because of Irvine's book would you? Not at all, but I'd hoped for something more reasonable and academically professional. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 21, 2013 19:56:10 GMT -5
Did you read my post above yours. Westboro is not a part of the Baptist denomination. It is an independent church using the name Baptist only. So what qualifications have you got fixit? Have you ever done a thesis yourself? Have you read his book? Do you think you are more qualified to evaluate a piece of research than a university itself?
I haven't read his book but it is in the post I understand. I have done a master's thesis so am looking forward to reading it.
It is only a master's thesis you know, not a PhD piece of work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 20:31:36 GMT -5
The Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) is an American unaffiliated Baptist church, it is not part of the Baptist denomination. Read it for yourself. it is an independent church. It uses the name only, it is not part of the Baptist denomination. It's not affiliation that makes you a dangerous cult apparently.....it's the doctrine. Yet the Westboro doctrine is orthodox, particularly if you consider Calvinism is orthodox. So here's the rub: Mr.Grey endorses the same doctrine as the Westboro Church yet he does not consider himself as endorsing the doctrine of a dangerous cult. Meanwhile, he has some theological differences (both real and imagined) with the rather publicly benign and quaint little 2x2 church yet classifies it as a dangerous cult. Is anyone confused by Mr.Grey yet? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 21, 2013 21:39:16 GMT -5
Did you read my post above yours. Westboro is not a part of the Baptist denomination. It is an independent church using the name Baptist only. So what qualifications have you got fixit? Have you ever done a thesis yourself? Have you read his book? Do you think you are more qualified to evaluate a piece of research than a university itself? I haven't read his book but it is in the post I understand. I have done a master's thesis so am looking forward to reading it. It is only a master's thesis you know, not a PhD piece of work. I think it is high time Baptists launch a public campaign to convince the rest of the world that they have nothing at all to do with the practices of the Westboro Baptist church. Because of the widespread publicity and concern about the atrocities of this Baptist church, our logical conclusion is that there is something in their scriptures that advises them to act that way. Until they can make these Baptists move somewhere else, I'm concerned that some of them will move in next door. After all -- don't Baptists owe some kind of apology to the rest of the world for the idiots among them. ?!?!?!?! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2013 21:44:22 GMT -5
VB, I think the Baptists should start an enquiry to figure out how a group like Westboro can embrace orthodox Baptist doctrine and engage in the activities that they do, presumably in line with the doctrine. Or maybe all doctrine is benign and irrelevant, but I doubt that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 21, 2013 21:53:10 GMT -5
So here's the rub: Mr.Grey endorses the same doctrine as the Westboro Church yet he does not consider himself as endorsing the doctrine of a dangerous cult. Meanwhile, he has some theological differences (both real and imagined) with the rather publicly benign and quaint little 2x2 church yet classifies it as a dangerous cult. Is anyone confused by Mr.Grey yet? I think I am. I've not read him because apparently his book is not available at the moment. But from what I have heard about his work it appears that he has evaluated the 2x2s by the standards of some particular Protestant denomination.  |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 21, 2013 21:56:27 GMT -5
VB, I think the Baptists should start an enquiry to figure out how a group like Westboro can embrace orthodox Baptist doctrine and engage in the activities that they do, presumably in line with the doctrine. Or maybe all doctrine is benign and irrelevant, but I doubt that. I think people just need to realize that NO RELIGION gets to control their radicals. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 21, 2013 22:13:24 GMT -5
Here's a Baptist who talks some sense: Baptist pastor/author examines how faith is used to justify atrocitiesEast Valley Tribune/April 13, 2004 By Lawn Griffiths The world will remain dangerous as long as there are people convinced they know God's will and feel compelled to impose that on others, Charles Kimball said recently during a lecture sponsored by the Center for the Study of Religion and Conflict at Arizona State University. "We have to always have a measure of humility at the way we approach our truth claims and not cross the line into absolutes that lead people to think, 'I am right, you must be wrong,' " said Kimball, author of "When Religion Becomes Evil" and chairman of the religion department at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C. Kimball, a Baptist pastor who has made nearly 40 trips to the Middle East, detailed how extremist religious zealotry in all major faiths has undermined global security and has left a trail of atrocities across human history. He said the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, underscored "that it doesn't take very many people to literally wreak havoc on a global scale. Nineteen people hijacked those planes with probably a few thousand behind them." "Far too often in history, people in all religious traditions have used religions to justify some of the worst things that human beings have done to one another in the name of religion," said Kimball, who has Jewish and Presbyterian roots and who married the daughter of a Southern Baptist minister. "I believe Jesus taught a gospel of love, but the haunting question is not what Jesus taught," he said. "The haunting question is: What have Christians done with that Gospel?" He cited a rabbi friend who told him, 'You know 2,000 years of Christian love is almost more than we Jews can bear!" "Religion may be the most powerful force in human society," Kimball said. While it has inspired billions "to do great and noble things, we all know all too often in history," it has been a very destructive force. "I am absolutely convinced that the overwhelming majority of Muslims all over the world are as horrified and offended by acts of violence and extremism in the name of Islam as all the rest of us." The morning of Sept. 11 remains a "teachable moment," especially about religious and geopolitical dynamics. They compelled Kimball to examine the events from a religious perspective: "What are the forces at work? Are there things we are doing individually or in terms of policies of our own government - the most powerful country in the world - that may be complicating instead of helping in certain parts of the world?" he said. Kimball offered "warning signs" of where religion is out of balance and dangerous. He cited people's relentless beliefs that God has imbued them and their theological tradition with the real truth. "I personally believe that there is such a thing as absolute truth, but I think it rests with God and not with any of us," he said. "We as human beings, to use the words of the Apostle Paul, see things through a 'glass darkly' and not yet face to face. . . . None of us possesses the mind of God." "The danger really begins when people begin to justify violent and destructive behavior sometimes, even behavior toward others based on their convictions - that they are the ones who possess the truth," Kimball said. As a result, he said, health workers in abortion clinics have been shot, innocent people have been killed on buses in Jerusalem, and Buddhist extremists released sarin nerve gas in 1995 in a Tokyo subway killing 12 and sickening thousands. If true believers are so cocksure about their rightness, he asked, why do they continue to listen to sermons, go to Sunday school or study groups or retreats and search out speakers? "All those things suggest that there is something more to learn," he said. Kimball noted how clergy wince at rereading their old sermons, admitting that they would have to rewrite them today. To stick steadfastly to past thinking would be like saying, "I haven't had a new thought in the last five years." He suggested that people should continue to learn, unlearn, grow, mature and reevaluate and not be afraid to change their minds even in religion. Blind obedience to powerful religious leaders is another warning sign, he said. "Any time you have too much power concentrated in too few hands, particularly in the hand of charismatic religious leaders and have blind obedience on the part of the followers, you have a disaster waiting to happen," he said. Kimball cited the more than 900 deaths of followers of the People's Temple of cult leader Jim Jones in 1978 in Guyana and the 80 Branch Davidians, led by David Koresh, who died in a compound in 1993 near Waco, Texas. "Ultimately, no matter how structured or how hierarchical the system may be, we are all responsible for ourselves," he said. "Healthy religion always requires checks and balances. Healthy religions always invite questions. In any religious system, when you reach a point that 'I don't need to think anymore,' somebody else is going to do the thinking for you," he said. "When you abdicate your responsibility to think for yourself, then you run the risk of serious abuse of religion." Among Kimball's other points in his 90-minute talk to a packed audience March 25 at College of Law Great Hall: "Fundamentalist Christians often care little about Middle East peace efforts, believing instead that war and conflict must be played out as part of biblical prophecy. "Why would you be working for peace when you know the end is very near?" he asked. "Christians too often ignore the "greatest commandment" that Jesus urged: "To love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself." Instead, they are consumed with "putting together the piece of the theological puzzle" about the date Jesus will return. Rather than feeding the poor and visiting the sick, he said, they are trying to calculate Christ's return. "The responsibility for those seeking to follow him has much more to do with how you love God and love your neighbor." "I believe religion offers a promise and the best hope for a shared world community," he said, suggesting that God deliberately created humankind to be widely diverse. He quoted the fifth chapter of the Quran: "Unto every people, God appointed a law and way of life. And if God has so willed, he could have sure made you all a single community." Instead, Kimball said, God wants all people to do good works regardless their tradition and even compete in the quality of their devoted service to others. "Be the best Christian, be the best Jew, be the best Hindu, be the best Muslim," Kimball said. "Let that be your competition. . . . God will sort out the truth." |
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2013 22:14:07 GMT -5
VB, I think the Baptists should start an enquiry to figure out how a group like Westboro can embrace orthodox Baptist doctrine and engage in the activities that they do, presumably in line with the doctrine. Or maybe all doctrine is benign and irrelevant, but I doubt that. I think people just need to realize that NO RELIGION gets to control their radicals. Absolutely and there are definitely radicals in all religions. I interviewed some and there were a couple that were just a step above the Westboro in their ideas about homosexuality etc. It was quite an eye opener to hear that from the Baptist Church which I've mostly considered non fanatic. I'm not so sure anymore. My birth family is Baptist and they are also young earthers, believe homosexuals are doomed spiritually, and that the bible is inerrant. It's quite an interesting belief system. Can you just imagine what it's like for me to have conversations with them about religion!! I can only do a couple days visit at a time. I wouldn't have any tongue left if I stayed any longer.... Of course it's their mission to 'save' me and get me to see their point of view. It's difficult when the subject of God comes up because I love them and don't want to offend, but some of the stuff they talk about really makes it hard to keep my thoughts to myself. So needless to say, I view the Baptist church as more 'hardcore' than some others. |
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2013 22:18:02 GMT -5
Here's a Baptist who talks some sense: "Be the best Christian, be the best Jew, be the best Hindu, be the best Muslim," Kimball said. "Let that be your competition. . . . God will sort out the truth." Now that is something I can agree with. Be the best you can be no matter whether you believe in God or not. If there is a God, I am certain he/she won't have a problem with sorting it all out!! Either that or it just won't care, because it really doesn't matter to it. |
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Jun 21, 2013 22:19:44 GMT -5
I hope God is a "she." Women are pretty good at sorting things out.
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Post by snow on Jun 21, 2013 22:36:39 GMT -5
I hope God is a "she." Women are pretty good at sorting things out. The master organizers!  God was a Goddess for a long time in our history. So you never know... |
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Post by What Hat on Jun 22, 2013 0:29:14 GMT -5
Absolutely, Baptist churches vary. Some are Charismatic /Pentecostal some are traditional. By their fruits you will know them. What I have trouble with is the idea that the doctrine determines the fruit. That is, that whether you believe in the Incarnation or the Trinity or any number of theological questions matters in any substantive way. I think that is the implication of definitions that classify cults on a theological basis. |
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God was a Goddess for a long time in our history. So you never know...