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Post by snow on Feb 7, 2014 15:15:01 GMT -5
You know what would be even better Nathan? That all the current 'friends' join the Golden Friends and leave the workers behind to stew in their own corruptness. Then Hoa and Chau could be their workers and any from the other group of workers that don't agree with the corrupt workers could join them. Then it would be good, because the corrupt workers would have no one left to preach to, control etc. Then maybe they would have to work for more recruits or just go home where they belong. They need to get their heads together, and work together between Westerner overseers and the Native Vietnamese workers... AND Please, don't send any corrupt, power grabbers workers, to Vietnam.Maybe it's time that the VN friends 'excommunicated' the overseers from their group? Then they would have a harmonious fellowship again under Hoa and Chau. These men need to be turned in to the authorities and deported back to where they came from. Out of reach so they can do no further harm to these people.
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Feb 7, 2014 15:24:20 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 15:24:20 GMT -5
It is Hoa and 100 golden friends decision... That do not want to RETURN when Lyle S was in charge. Let us wait and see who is the new overseer, and is he going to improve and fix thing better than before... When he does I hope and pray Hoa and 100 golden friends will have a change of hearts and want to RETURN and be ONE big happy family like in the golden times again. Okay Nathan. Does that matter anymore? Can we not be talking about divisive things. How about we talk about restoration? We can spend the next year talking about who said what, who did what.....Please...lets not. Lets worry about what will take place that will restore unity. Thank You. [/quote] They have endured MANY difficult, rough, tough experiences which test their faith to the limits Nathan, I can agree with the first part of your statement, but not the last. From what I can read of their experiences, their FAITH has increased. They simply have rejected those challenges to their faith, beliefs and convictions by the foreigners as being unGodly.
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Feb 7, 2014 15:49:10 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 15:49:10 GMT -5
Maybe it's time that the VN friends 'excommunicated' the overseers from their group? Then they would have a harmonious fellowship again under Hoa and Chau. These men need to be turned in to the authorities and deported back to where they came from. Out of reach so they can do no further harm to these people. I believe it's better when God does the removing. It seems God does a good job so far... He removed Darrel T. and Lyle S. out of VN. God is still on the throne! He is the OVERSEER of overseers. Sometimes God allows these workers in charge for a short time to test our Faith, and Trust in God to open and shut doors timing. He has greater things in store for us in the future, so he is grooming, teaching us lessons here on earth, for that GREAT day of reigning on the earth 1000 yrs with Him.
God's people/apostles will be sitting on thrones judging the world, and the fallen angels for their evil deeds. Paul wrote in (I Cor. 6:1-3) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge fallen/angels?
You know, that for some people the thought is that I believe it's better when God does the removing. It seems God does a good job so far... He removed...... the golden friends from the unGodly influence of foreigners who came in and destroyed the truth fellowship in Vietnam. These golden friends are now enjoying the unhindered joy and true fellowship gained through the leading of the Holy Spirit, unhampered by the doctrines of man.
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Feb 7, 2014 16:54:46 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 16:54:46 GMT -5
You know, that for some people the thought is that I believe it's better when God does the removing. It seems God does a good job so far... He removed...... the golden friends from the unGodly influence of foreigners who came in and destroyed the truth fellowship in Vietnam. These golden friends are now enjoying the unhindered joy and true fellowship gained through the leading of the Holy Spirit, unhampered by the doctrines of man. Let me ask you some questions... Just say God removed and replaced an overseer worker like Mike T. a true servant of God who cares for the loving people in Vietnam and restore the peace and unity like in the past, with the help from uncle Chau.
1) Do you think uncle Hoa and golden friends should RETURN and be with the current friends and the workers whom they love once things in VN have straighten out?
2) Or do you think they should STAY where they are, and continue in what they're doing now, having their own groups fellowship and NOT return to the 2x2 fellowship.The issue as I see it, Nathan, is that the guy in the background pulling the strings in this whole mess is the one that really ought to be replaced first. It is the same guy who helped create the mess in Alberta, and the one who believes that the members shouldn't follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, but rather a different spirit... that of a worker... whether the decisions of the workers are correct or not. We have seen that in writing posted numerous places. He is the same person who encouraged the members of his staff to disregard the law in guidelines that he created, encouraging them to shirk their lawful/legal duties as mandated reporters. Is this really the type of man that people want pulling the strings of the workers of several states and even other countries? But then people do get what they accept.....so if the friends are fine with such a person in place then they deserve him, I guess. So, what I personally think about whether Hoa and the others should allow the others in Vietnam to rejoin them in fellowship really doesn't matter. That is their decision, and from reading about them, I am sure that they will let the Holy Spirit determine any course of action they might decide on. I think that the fellowship that they are now enjoying together.....without being restricted by doctrines of man..... is a wonderful thing. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading of their fellowship, their strength in adversity, their commitment to the Lord, and the pictures of them being together. Those pictures and the descriptions of them certainly tell a story of a wonderful fellowship between like-minded believers, who are following their convictions.
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Feb 7, 2014 17:41:50 GMT -5
Post by snow on Feb 7, 2014 17:41:50 GMT -5
Maybe it's time that the VN friends 'excommunicated' the overseers from their group? Then they would have a harmonious fellowship again under Hoa and Chau. These men need to be turned in to the authorities and deported back to where they came from. Out of reach so they can do no further harm to these people. I believe it's better when God does the removing. It seems God does a good job so far... He removed Darrel T. and Lyle S. out of VN. God is still on the throne! He is the OVERSEER of overseers. Sometimes God allows these workers in charge for a short time to test our Faith, and Trust in God to open and shut doors timing. He has greater things in store for us in the future, so he is grooming, teaching us lessons here on earth, for that GREAT day of reigning on the earth 1000 yrs with Him.
God's people/apostles will be sitting on thrones judging the world, and the fallen angels for their evil deeds. Paul wrote in (I Cor. 6:1-3) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge fallen/angels?
you are misunderstanding and that's probably my fault. What I mean is this. If all the friends that are following the corrupt overseers left and joined the Golden Friends with Hoa and Chau then no one would be removing them, they would just simply be left behind. Then the VN friends would be back in harmony. It would be a choice at that point of whether the group called the 2x2's would acknowledge them as one of them or they form their own fellowship without the backing of the 2x2's.
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Feb 7, 2014 17:52:47 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 17:52:47 GMT -5
To Scott, so your answer is #2 they should STAY where they are, and continue in what they're doing now, having their own groups fellowship and NOT return to the 2x2 fellowship.
My answer is #1 uncle Hoa and golden friends should RETURN and be with the current friends and the workers whom they love once things in VN have straighten out..... That was the reason why they left! They didn't agree with Darrel T. and Lyle S. leadership/and how they behaved unwisely in VN with theirs rules, regulation.... If things get solved with Chau's help they should Return and be with the current friends, and workers whom they love for 50 yrs.
The whole issue really isn't with Darrel and Lyle. The issue is with their boss. And no, I didn't give you any answer that was #1. My answer was: So, what I personally think about whether Hoa and the others should allow the others in Vietnam to rejoin them in fellowship really doesn't matter. That is their decision, and from reading about them, I am sure that they will let the Holy Spirit determine any course of action they might decide on.
I think that the fellowship that they are now enjoying together.....without being restricted by doctrines of man..... is a wonderful thing. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading of their fellowship, their strength in adversity, their commitment to the Lord, and the pictures of them being together.
Those pictures and the descriptions of them certainly tell a story of a wonderful fellowship between like-minded believers, who are following their convictions.Like the saying we have read before, going to any specific church doesn't turn you in to a Christian, anymore than standing in a garage is going to turn you in to a car. My advice is, has been, and will be........ follow your convictions through the leading of the Holy Spirit in such matters. It is not up to me to determine what is right for someone else. A few of the things that I always remember when it comes to discussion of the beliefs of others: What you believe does not affect my salvation.
Even if we have similar beliefs, we all have our own convictions.
I will not live my life based on someone else's convictions.
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Feb 7, 2014 18:03:43 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 18:03:43 GMT -5
you are misunderstanding and that's probably my fault. What I mean is this. If all the friends that are following the corrupt overseers left and joined the Golden Friends with Hoa and Chau then no one would be removing them, they would just simply be left behind. Then the VN friends would be back in harmony. It would be a choice at that point of whether the group called the 2x2's would acknowledge them as one of them or they form their own fellowship without the backing of the 2x2's. If the friends and workers in Vietnam did what you suggested.... then all the friends and native workers in Vietnam will be cut off by the majority of the friends and workers around the world. Uncle Chau and majority of the friends, did the correct thing, WAIT Patiently! for the Lord to CHANGE things in VN, like He had done many times in the past. Let us wait and see which new overseer God will send to VN any day now. HUH? Who is going to cut them off? Cut them off from what? How much support do 'friends and workers' give to those people in Vietnam? Do you think that God is going to cut them off? From what I have been reading here, and by what I have been reading in emails, the majority of the professing folks are on their side, not the side of Dale Schultz who is calling the shots in all this. I think you underestimate the loyalty of the friends when it comes to whether to follow the bible, or to follow out of control workers. As far as I can tell after almost 1800 posts and almost 41,000 views on this thread..... you seem to be the only person who thinks that these people should ignore their convictions and the leading of the Holy Spirit, and to follow a man instead.
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Feb 7, 2014 18:07:29 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 18:07:29 GMT -5
The whole issue really isn't with Darrel and Lyle. The issue is with their boss. And no, I didn't give you any answer that was #1. My answer was: So, what I personally think about whether Hoa and the others should allow the others in Vietnam to rejoin them in fellowship really doesn't matter. That is their decision, and from reading about them, I am sure that they will let the Holy Spirit determine any course of action they might decide on.
I think that the fellowship that they are now enjoying together.....without being restricted by doctrines of man..... is a wonderful thing. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading of their fellowship, their strength in adversity, their commitment to the Lord, and the pictures of them being together.
Those pictures and the descriptions of them certainly tell a story of a wonderful fellowship between like-minded believers, who are following their convictions.Like the saying we have read before, going to any specific church doesn't turn you in to a Christian, anymore than standing in a garage is going to turn you in to a car. My advice is, has been, and will be........ follow your convictions through the leading of the Holy Spirit in such matters. It is not up to me to determine what is right for someone else. A few of the things that I always remember when it comes to discussion of the beliefs of others: What you believe does not affect my salvation.
Even if we have similar beliefs, we all have our own convictions.
I will not live my life based on someone else's convictions. By reading your posts.... They should stay where they are having their own group fellowship by their convictions WITHOUT having fellowship with the current friends and workers are OK.I guess I just don't speakayourlanguage very well.... My statement has nothing to do with having fellowship with anyone else. My statement is that they should follow their own convictions. If they wish to allow those people following the workers to have fellowship with them, then that is certainly fine with me. I am pretty sure that they would welcome everyone who is a Christ follower to have fellowship with them. No need for you to continue to try to figure out what I am saying. They should follow their convictions. Not yours, not mine, not the workers...... Do you follow your convictions or someone else's Nathan?
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Feb 7, 2014 18:20:22 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 18:20:22 GMT -5
So, which is it? Do you think that they should follow their convictions? And..... can you answer the question I asked you....please. Do you follow your convictions or someone else's Nathan?
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Feb 7, 2014 18:48:04 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 18:48:04 GMT -5
So, which is it? Do you think that they should follow their convictions? And..... can you answer the question I asked you....please. Do you follow your convictions or someone else's Nathan?
I follow God's conviction to my own heart.
To Scott... just say God has convicted and opened the door for Hoa and 100 golden friends to return to the 2x2 fellowship should they OBEY his voice?Great! You follow your convictions, just as those in Vietnam have done. Thank you for answering that, and we can agree on that point. In regard to your question, I have to say....again..... that people should follow their own convictions. God never closed any doors in regard to access to Him. If someone is convicted to join with Hoa and the golden friends, then that is what they should do. Likewise, if anyone is convicted to go to fellowship meetings elsewhere, then that is what they should do. If all the people who are following the workers become convicted to join in fellowship with Hoa and the golden friends, you would be ok with that, correct? That they should follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and how they are convicted, just the same as you and I do.
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Feb 7, 2014 18:54:39 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Feb 7, 2014 18:54:39 GMT -5
1. Friends in Suoi lanh (countryside) preparing the way. 2.The house just finished being prepared to welcome friends from another places
3. Friends at Suoi Lanh 4.Three new convertsWake up this morning I was suprised with my husband posting and a huge of others posted related from his information. 1. This picture remind me. A voice of one calling in the wilderness,‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’” Tomorrow we will go to Suoi Lạnh (Cold spring), 140Km far from Saigon. From the time uncle Châu was chased out we haven't had a large gathering in this place. Because of the van couldn't reach there (only the motobikes). Friends at their place wishing an opportunity for them to have the visiting at this New Lunar year. My Dad also wants to meet them, so he hires a taxi (7 places) to go there with us, and 3 other friends. But some others want to company us then we have to chang to a van with 16 places. But at last the number go to 24 now. We change to a bigger van with 28 places. Hearing this our friends in Suối Lạnh full of joy & happy. After the fellowship on last Sunday, all of them working together prepared the road for more easily riding on motobikes. The van will have to stop 4 km far from our friends house. Then some old age or weekness will be carried by motobikes. The rest walking shortcut aross the rubber forest about more than 1Km. 2. Hearing our visiting they had the house repaired, enough room for the visiting. 3. There are an old couple with two daughter stay there. Recently add 3 more. This picture was taken with some friends in other place. 4. Mother and two son professed 3 months ago.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 19:02:54 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing your pictures! And 3 more people joining you in fellowship, that is great! People are attracted to what they see in the lives of others, and if I remember right from some previous posts, that would make about 10 people that have made the decision to turn their lives over to God recently because of the message that your fellowship is sharing and showing. I think that is fantastic. It is interesting to me to see the contrast of your country and mine. Yours seems to be a much simpler way of life, but full of blessings and love.
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 19:05:39 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 7, 2014 19:05:39 GMT -5
The reason why your idea won't work is like this Nathan: Westerners are like a person who tries to fasten a screw with a hammer, not a screwdriver. They don't have the right tools. Chau and Hoa have the right tools for the job. NOT all westerners workers are like Darrel T. and Lyle S.... There are good, God fearing workers out there such as Mike T. Craig Jacobsen, Jay Wicks, Dean B. and so on... Unlce Hoa is no longer a 2x2 worker, for 4 yrs now. I hope he will change his mind and come back to help the work in VN again. If he does change his mind that would be awesome. Hopefully, all of the 100 golden friends will return also so they can continue to enjoy their golden time like the old days. Let us wait and see which worker, they will replace Lyle S. in VN. I believe this time they will be VERY careful, who they sent to VN. They don't want to MESS up for the third time. God is awesome! Great, and Wonderful,Uncle Chau was right by waiting patiently for God to open another door for VN and him to walk through.It would be very interesting to know just what happened to so quickly "remove" L.S. as overseer of VN! Was it the VN government investigating why the registered leader of the church being sent out of the country? One would hope so....that way, the government will be very very careful who they allow back into VN even as a temporary church visitor! I think that all this rottenness has caused a serious setback for people's religious freedoms and who could blame the government for keeping a finger on the pulse of the religions within their people? It has already been mentioned the great trials that other foreigners caused VN and Americans were the last so I can't quite see the reason that even the proud and arrogant western country over overseers would send people into such a country and tell them to "take over".....I have to wonder how many professing people reading MT's and other's posts on this thread were so incensed that they made sure that the over overseer in the western alliance would be made well aware of what hardships the flukey CAN overseer of VN caused the VN people with demands of being entertained as he was used to being entertained in Canada or America......that was beyond human comprehension for him to treat those poor folks like that! I'm hoping the government is holding their feet down on the fact that uncle Chau is NOT to be sent out of his registered position with the government in VN ever again....poor man, if his nerves aren't brittle now, they may well be when he gets through all of this!
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Feb 7, 2014 19:12:09 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 19:12:09 GMT -5
Great! You follow your convictions, just as those in Vietnam have done. Thank you for answering that, and we can agree on that point. In regard to your question, I have to say....again..... that people should follow their own convictions. God never closed any doors in regard to access to Him. If someone is convicted to join with Hoa and the golden friends, then that is what they should do. Likewise, if anyone is convicted to go to fellowship meetings elsewhere, then that is what they should do. If all the people who are following the workers become convicted to join in fellowship with Hoa and the golden friends, you would be ok with that, correct? That they should follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and how they are convicted, just the same as you and I do. You didn't answer my question. Let us try again... "Just say God has convicted and opened the door for Hoa and 100 golden friends to return to the 2x2 fellowship should they OBEY his voice? Yes or No answer. Thanks.
Nathan.... I think I was pretty clear about that answer. If they have a conviction to be in fellowship with ANYONE..... then that is what they should do. I am pretty sure that would mean YES, as they would be following their convictions. You missed a question of mine I think.... you can answer with a simple yes or no if you wish.... If all the people who are following the workers become convicted to join in fellowship with Hoa and the golden friends, you would be ok with that, correct? That they should follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit, and how they are convicted, just the same as you and I do.
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Feb 7, 2014 19:22:21 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 7, 2014 19:22:21 GMT -5
They need to get their heads together, and work together between Westerner overseers and the Native Vietnamese workers... AND Please, don't send any corrupt, power grabbers workers, to Vietnam.Maybe it's time that the VN friends 'excommunicated' the overseers from their group? Then they would have a harmonious fellowship again under Hoa and Chau. These men need to be turned in to the authorities and deported back to where they came from. Out of reach so they can do no further harm to these people. It seems to me that NOT ONLY have the Canadian overseers caused the citizens of VN great problems, they actually have hurt themselves and anyone from another country being welcomed.....IF the government ever got wind of what's gone down, they will not allow "visas" for the Canadians nor American workers even to "visit"....so seems again another Canadian newly appointed overseer having to go home with his tail tucked between his legs.......Pride is what caused all of this and well perhaps selfishness and arrogance in being from a well developed nation to overseer such a poor country. Though honestly either LS didn't know that VN was a poor country or he just didn't give a hoot!
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 19:38:46 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2014 19:38:46 GMT -5
This makes me wonder what a plane ticket to VN would cost--I'd love to meet with you folks
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Feb 7, 2014 19:55:00 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 7, 2014 19:55:00 GMT -5
Well, we seem to be in agreement regarding convictions, and the need to follow them. That is good. Yes, it will be interesting to see if there is any way that the workers can in any way repair the damage done by Dale Schultz interfering in Vietnam by sending in his hatchetmen. I think that by the time they figure out that they need to quit making up and enforcing more (non-existent) rules, that the true fellowship of the golden friends will consist of way more people than those who decided to follow the workers instead of God. Irregardless of what the outcome is, this has certainly brought a lot of focus to how the workers try to rule over God's work in other countries. Will we see anything similar take place elsewhere, and to what extent? So far, this issue in Vietnam has led to a pretty big loss of membership there in the worker's church. Is this a similar number of people that left in Alberta? Is this going to have ramifications elsewhere? I think so. Even if it doesn't lead more people to leave, it IS getting more people to change their attitudes toward workers who promote their authority over the members, rather than serving the church. One more large black mark against the fellowship, brought about not by the exes, but by the workers themselves. They really don't seem to care about the health and welfare of the fellowship, only their own self centered view of power, prestige and control. Eventually, this is going to lead to where the only trusted workers are those who show by their words and actions that they are true shepherds and spiritual leaders. The rest will be shunned and marginalized, kind of what is already happening through gospel meeting attendance.
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 7, 2014 20:28:18 GMT -5
Darrel T. and Lyle S. should have worked together with the natives about changing things, meetings worship time, traditions in VN with Westerners traditions, such as prepared meals for the workers when the friends are so poor. The should have come in the middle ground, going slowly with their changes. The workers around the world should learn what NOT to do from many lessons from Alberta excommunication and Vietnam Mess. Be more of the Feeders kind of Shepherds than less Rulers types of workers. I am very pleased that they are trying to correct the mistakes by removing Darrel and Dale from VN hopefully, with someone could help Chau to cool things down, make things right, apologize to all the friends for the MESS the Canadians have caused, and please forgive them. In the vein of learning from this....Which of these changes were necessary and why? So far I haven't really heard of anything that could be reasonably justified.
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Post by déjà vu on Feb 7, 2014 20:37:57 GMT -5
Nathans quote
"apologize to all the friends for the MESS the Canadians have caused, and please forgive them. "
don't hold your breath , it will not happen. IMHO
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Feb 7, 2014 21:05:25 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 7, 2014 21:05:25 GMT -5
Nathans quote "apologize to all the friends for the MESS the Canadians have caused, and please forgive them. " don't hold your breath , it will not happen. IMHO
The new Overseer might write a general letter of apologize to get the friends attention, that is a first step to get thing rolling, to clean up the rest one by one after that... Uncle Chau will be a great help, to the New Overseer, suggesting what are the right steps, things to heal many wounds, hurts feelings. Chau knows the language and the friends who he and uncle Hoa had labored for 50 yrs. Let us hope for the best to all of the friends and the golden friends in VN.Nathan, I don't believe that anyone sending in "another overseer" is going to be welcomed very quickly! Simply because the most recent overseer put a lot of the people into financial difficulties....these people are poor and they have just so much offered to them to eke out a living...the recent overseer caused a lot of problems along this line and I would be almost positive that even the most hardliner 2x2 friend there will really care to welcome another foreigner who is apt to be as bad or nearly as bad if not worse in jumping in there trying to do things like they know them to be done in the developed nations.....the workers must not keep going in there and causing people this level of difficulties even in just their natural lives....they soon will not have anyone who desires to be associated with the 2x2 workers at all. Let it alone and let them alone...let uncle Chau and uncle Hoa come together to discuss how they can help their beloved friends come out of this horrible burden the foreign workers have given them! Didn't any of the foreign workers ever see or question native workers about why they always carried their own foodstuff into the friends' houses? Or even bringing enough to feed them all? Why would foreign workers think they could waltz into such apoor country and live like the kings and queens the workers in the US and Canada live? I mean after all workers have gone in and out of Haiti which is likely even poorer then Vietnam and they know or have known they can't live like they do in the US while they are in Haiti! I pray no new overseer is sent in there...I pray that uncle Chau and uncle Hoa will be able to come together in peace and decide how to bring peace to the friends and the golden friends......and how to help those who'v ehad such a horrible burden pushed on to them by the foreign workers!
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Feb 7, 2014 21:09:35 GMT -5
Post by openingact34 on Feb 7, 2014 21:09:35 GMT -5
In the vein of learning from this....Which of these changes were necessary and why? So far I haven't really heard of anything that could be reasonably justified. I believe they just want the friends and the native workers in Vietnam to conform just the rest of the friends around the world. The friends and sister workers Wearing dresses, Sunday worship meetings about the same time in all of Vietnam, having workers meals when they come to visit the friends, etc... In doing the conformity and unity of outward things they have destroy the conviction and the Leading of the Spirit of God.Sounds like a need for no change, not a need for slow change. Women's Dress: Most friends on TMB seem adamant that this hasn't been an issue in 10+ yrs Meeting Time: This varies considerably even within a given US state. I always had to ask when I went someplace new. Worker Meals: Vietnam isn't the only place in the world where some will struggle to put food on the table
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Feb 7, 2014 21:24:13 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 7, 2014 21:24:13 GMT -5
Regarding specific changes that were made by Canadian Overseers...here is a list of questions the Elders made concerning these changes which MT posted earlier. Lyle met with the Elders and listened to their questions. He promised when he returned (was leaving the country) that he would come back and answer their questions--but that didnt happen.
MT wrote: Uncle Lyle returned Dec. 27, 2011. We waited and waited, but there never was a gathering or any answers. My older sister and her husband reminded Uncle Lyle that this matter was important to the Friends, and asked him to please don’t drop this matter. Instead Uncle Lyle asked his staff to go to their fields and give the answers to those who wanted. (It seemed that this way they could find out which Friends don’t agree with them.) My sister and her husband are still in their Fellowship and wish Uncle Lyle hadn’t broken his promise.
Recent years, we have seen and heard some things from brother Darrel (overseer) and other Workers. We would mention them below. We wish our Workers to answer us in order that we can understand clearly, we are very grateful.
Part I – The Things We Want To Ask
1. Studying the Bible every day. Beforehand we were taught by brothers Châu and Hoa that the first thing we need to do when getting up every morning is to pray, meditate. After that, according to individual family, all the family members gather together at appropriate time (early morning is the best) and study the Bible.
But now…brother Darrel says “No studying together. Study individually.” We want to ask…Is it true?
2. Taking notes in the Meetings. Some Friends attending Conventions or Special Meetings jot down the thoughts shared by God’s Workers. Later on they correct the notes and copy them and give them to any Friends who ask.
But now…brother Darrel says: “No taking notes.” We want to ask… Is this right?
3. Telling God’s word. We live in the world and sometimes someone asks us about God. Previously in our humble place, we tell them about God and at last we introduce them to meet the Workers.
But now…brother Darrel says: “We live among the people. If someone asks about God, God’s children are only permitted to tell them the reason why we follow God. We have to wait for God’s Workers coming to tell them God’s word.”
We want to ask…Is this true?
4. The Breaking of Bread. a) We have read in the Old Testament and New Testament that Jesus established the Breaking of Bread in the evening. Is there any relation with the fact that God created the world in 6 days in Genesis. When finishing God said, “…and there was evening and there was morning, one day…”
We wonder if the evening exists before the morning or not. Please explain it to us and explain us more why we have to have Meeting in the morning?
b) Previously every church discusses and chooses the best time to have gathering.
But now…brother Darrel says “The Fellowship Meeting is at 9 o’clock AM” Now we want to change the time appropriately according to each church, is it alright?
5. The Weddings. a) The Bible says “giving wife and taking husband”. It shows that the parents manage to organise the wedding, taking husband to their daughter. As parents, we have the right to invite any guests accordingly.
But now…brother Darrel says we “should only invite the two churches and the guests close to the bride and the bridegroom. No parents’ guests.”
We want to ask…Is this true to the rule ?
b) About the MC (Master of Ceremony) of the wedding,
But now…brother Darrel says that “we should ask a young friend to be an MC, not old one.”
We want to ask about “the young friend”…From what age to what age is young ?” We don’t understand the purpose of this idea. Why???
6. The Funerals. When one of our Friends passes away, we want to take pictures at the funeral to send them to relatives (not professing) living in other countries or remote places who cannot attend the funeral.
But now…brother Darrel says “No taking pictures in the funeral.”How do we manage?
7. Borrowing money. Brother Darrel recommends: “when someone loans an amount of money to other, the loaner considers it as giving it. And someone wants to borrow an amount of money, he must go to the bank to borrow.” Brother Darrel wanted to advise God’s people not to loan money to each other.
But now…in our country, someone wants to borrow money at the bank, they have to mortgage their house or their field. And some of them don’t own anything. How can we manage?
8. Helping each other in material things. In the Bible we have read that some Churches raised money to help other churches in adversity. In recent years we have never heard the Workers encourage God’s people to help each other in material things. On the contrary, some Workers didn’t permit us to help each other in material things. Among God’s people, there are still some very difficult families. The Workers don’t want them to borrow money, to help in material things, they don’t encourage either.
We want the Workers to let us know more how to behave when we want to help each other in physical, material things?
9. Praying to ask God to drive away demons. There was a family. A member in the family one day suddenly her health declined and always talked nonsense. Sometimes she affected the Meeting. Although she was treated by doctors, her illness was not healed. With these signs, we thought she was possessed by a demon. One time we asked brother Châu and the Friends gathered at that place to pray: “May God have mercy on this woman…”
After some occasions of praying, this one got better, was conscious again and became normal. We thought God accepted our prayers. After that she decided to follow Jesus and she has been faithful so far. Since then her parents and relatives saw the power of God and wanted to follow Jesus, too.
We want to ask the Workers about this prayer…“May God have mercy on this woman and drive the demons away from her.” Is there any thing wrong with it?
But now…brother Darrel says: “It’s not right.”
10. Inviting a person to analyze a scientific fact in a gathering. Brother Trung is a godly friend. We honored his faith– his word –his deed. He has helped all of us. His profession is a medical doctor, dedicated to studying sciences. On an occasion, there was a gathering with all Workers and elders, brother Darrel asked doctor Trung to have a speech on analyzing a scientific phenomena purely without mentioning the faith!
We want to know… in a gathering of people with faith, what purpose it serves to invite a person to talk about science. We don’t understand.
11. The so-called Elder. In the Protestant, they use these words Teacher, Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Deacon, Saint, Believer….to name the position in their religion. But we use: Way of God instead of Protestant. God’s children instead of Believer, Saint. The person who is in charge at a church, and leading a Meeting is called Elder. It is the same word in the Protestant Way.
We want to know…Do we need to have another name to replace?
12. A model form to declare to the Authorities. When we have a gathering, the authorities can knock at the door at any time and question us about that gathering.
We need to have some entries that are unified throughout the country to fill the form. For example: - Who is the head? - The name of religion? - Method of working?
13. The Person Substitute. Previously, every God’s child is prepared to answer the authorities that brother Hoa and brother Châu are in charge. Their address is at 19 cx Trần Quang Diệu- Ward 14 -Distr 3 -Saigon. But now they are not in the work, they don’t have a stable address as usual.
We want to know…Which Workers are now substitutes for the two brothers who are no longer in the work anymore. Who is in legal charge with the Authorities, their address, their lodging in order that all the Friends can answer the same to the Authorities at any time they ask.
14. Why two words? Once the Authorities asked every citizen to declare their religion. The Workers asked Hải Trân to send message to God’s people stating that: “We follow God, gather at home.” If they don’t accept we can declare that we are Protestants.
We want to know… why there are two answers.
15. The Promise. In the last page of our hymn book: “after 2 years there will be a new version.”
But now…Five years has passed and the Workers don’t have a word about this.
16. Composing Hymns. Besides the hymn book using in the Meeting, we have other hymns from USA, Canada, India, Korea. The Workers and God’s people in other countries can compose hymns, so can Workers and God’ people in Vietnam compose hymn? Especially in Vietnam, there are 5 hymns dedicated to the wedding being used for many years previously. (One hymn from Uncle Fred and translated by brother Châu, the rest are composed by brother Bau in lyric part.)
We want to ask…In our family’s wedding, if we want to sing one of these songs, is it alright to sing as we did in the previous years?
17. Baptism. In the past, in order to prepare for an occasion of baptism, the Workers usually speak clearly about the meaning and purpose of baptism especially for those who were ready for baptism. After that those who were ready, they would stand up to manifest their willingness and the Workers baptize them without differentiating young or old, how long in God’s way.
But now… The Workers say those who will be baptized must reach 14 years old and have follow God for a length of time.
We want to know…Is that stipulation right?
Part II. The Things We Have Seen
We are sheep which always watch and follow the examples of the shepherds. “the shepherd goes ahead and the sheep just follow him.”
Following are those that we have seen:
1. There are very poor families among God’s people. Yet, some Workers use expensive motorbikes.
2. Some Workers gave unclear information and caused our Friends to suspect one another, dividing into factions in the church. Example: saying that brother Mike couldn’t renew his visa because there had been someone who secretly reported him to the police! But we haven’t heard exactly who did it.
3. When God’s people encounter spiritual problems, the Workers of the field didn’t ask them directly the cause to help them. They only decided: “He or She is forbidden to pray and to share in the Meetings. And he or she should go to Gospel Meetings to start his or her work of faith again.” Some of them were really hurt and since then they left God’s House!
4. There is an old professing lady, living far from the place of Meetings. In previous years she tried to go to the Meetings although she was ill. But now her health declines, she cannot go to the Meetings. She said: “More than 4 years I have lived here, and no worker has come here to visit me, except brother Châu, who from time to time sends me a text message to encourage me. That lady is sister Nga, now she moves to Long Khánh town-Đồng Nai Province.
5. Formerly, whenever one of God’s people passed away, the Workers spared about 20-30 minutes for God’s people who are standing around the coffin to say a few words about the life of our deceased friend to comfort and encourage one another. We find this in Acts 9:36-39. In recent funerals, we haven’t seen this anymore!
6. We long that the Workers of the field, coming to the house of God’s people, they should bring the Gospel and peace. Please don’t bring bad stories about others to tell us, even a little one. And also, please don’t ask questions that make us confused, doubtful and puzzled.
7. In order not to make God’s people fear and worry or make them tell lies to the authorities, we propose that foreign Workers should stay at the hotel at night and limit their walking outside at daytime, especially in rural areas.
8. In order to have a godly atmosphere in the Meetings, we suggest that all should stand up when praying or sharing.
9. There is a Meeting for young people yearly. We don’t find any Meeting for middle-aged or the old ones! Why is there a difference made between the old and the young?
10. Finally, we hope that the Workers will be an example to us and teach us to obey God’s Word as in the Bible and please don’t interfere in the private affairs of our family.
Part III - Supplication
Hearing and seeing good things we cannot mention all, we only mention a few things we have seen and heard that we don’t understand clearly. So we wish the Workers will answer clearly to each one of God’s people which is right and which is wrong? And we need the Workers to tell us again what things are true? We are very grateful.
Love in Jesus Christ,
Some of God’s people in Vietnam (More than a dozen elder and old Friends, some still in their Fellowship).
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 22:15:39 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Feb 7, 2014 22:15:39 GMT -5
Nathans quote "apologize to all the friends for the MESS the Canadians have caused, and please forgive them. " don't hold your breath , it will not happen. IMHO
The new Overseer might write a general letter of apologize to get the friends attention, that is a first step to get thing rolling, to clean up the rest one by one after that... Uncle Chau will be a great help, to the New Overseer, suggesting what are the right steps, things to heal many wounds, hurts feelings. Chau knows the language and the friends who he and uncle Hoa had labored for 50 yrs. Let us hope for the best to all of the friends and the golden friends in VN."Chau a help to the new overseer" Don't you have this backwards?
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Deleted Member
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 22:43:22 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2014 22:43:22 GMT -5
This makes me wonder what a plane ticket to VN would cost--I'd love to meet with you folks We found Hanoi to be just about the least expensive place to fly to in Southeast Asia....about $1200. Flights within VN are very cheap, just over $70 one way between Hanoi and Saigon.
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 22:43:45 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Feb 7, 2014 22:43:45 GMT -5
If anyone should "oversee" VN, its Chau. Why would someone else come out to oversee VN. What if Chau would go to somewhere in the US and decide to be an overseer?
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 23:03:00 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Feb 7, 2014 23:03:00 GMT -5
If anyone should "oversee" VN, its Chau. Why would someone else come out to oversee VN. What if Chau would go to somewhere in the US and decide to be an overseer? In Paper registered to the Government Chau was the overseer but behind the scene, that position has changed hands by MANY overseers since then, and uncle Chau has accepted those decision at least 10 yrs. ago. It was the foreigners, Australians Fred A., his nephew, and others who brought the gospel to VN. They were in charge of making plans for the natives.Seriously, what do you think is best for VN? Get away from the politics and tell me honestly what is best.
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Vietnam
Feb 7, 2014 23:32:11 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Feb 7, 2014 23:32:11 GMT -5
Seriously, what do you think is best for VN? Get away from the politics and tell me honestly what is best. Sent in another overseer, who is willing to work with Chau and let him be in charge to fix the problems, working out issues with Hoa, and the 100 golden friends in Vietnam. Absolutely. Everyone knows that Chau will do what is best for VN. He will never let himself get in the way of what is best.
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Post by xuanhoan on Feb 8, 2014 0:59:32 GMT -5
Knowing that Lyle Shutlz left Vietnam, we and our people are glad to have this information. These men such as Dale Schutlz, Lyle Schutlz, Darrel have destroyed the peace, the unity, the joy of the Vietnamese people. They have defended for their countrymen, their class of overseers. Bye,Bye! We need people who are willing to defend for the Kingdom of God Uncle Chau does not have the plan to go to Cambodia as a babysitter any more. Bravo!!! Does this mean that he will be coming back to VN? When returning from Australia, uncle Chau had a convention in Penang and finalized in Cambodia. After that he came back Vietnam and enjoyed the new lunar year ithere. According to the plan of overseer Lyle Schultz, he had to go to Cambodia to labour but the authorities don't allow so he is subject to stay in Vietnam. Their plan failed.
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