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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 23:31:00 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 23:31:00 GMT -5
Its only a killer site to those who have been lied to. A simple solution would be for overseers and their staff to stop telling lies. So, you think Chau is telling lies when he wrote this to Minhthanh.... minhthanh said: Uncle Chau admonished me MANY times. Chau wants us to return to the fellowship. "Please, don't waste your time on internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul!"I don't think Uncle Chau was concerned about MT learning the truth about the beginnings. Do you?
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 23:41:06 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 23:41:06 GMT -5
I agree... I have been reading and following Graham Thompson journey with CSA issue. He is indeed a servant of God. No nonsense when it comes to speaking and dealing with CSA in the ministry. There must be more Graham Thompson calibers out there they could sent to VN. Unfortunately the workers of Graham Thompson's caliber either get sidelined, or thrown out of the work, or they leave the work out of frustration and disappointment. Rarely would a man of integrity like Graham Thompson be given an overseer position. The same goes for elders. The overseers prefer yes men.
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 23:48:20 GMT -5
Post by snow on Feb 1, 2014 23:48:20 GMT -5
I do think he is just saying what he's heard for ever. What else is there really. Cherie's site is a lifesaver really. When I first found out about the group online, I read and read usually amazed at all I was learning about my parents religion. And, I wondered if they had ever known any of it. I just feel we all would be better off if we didn't let the groups we belonged to divide us. I don't see anything wrong with individual groups and being with like minded people. That's a natural urge. What I hate to see is beliefs that say other groups are wrong and not as good. That just makes for hard feelings and divides. For 20 yrs, I had known many friends who left the 2x2 fellowship, after they read the TTT website. Some of them became the 2x2s worse enemies, trying to encourage other in the fellowship to follow in their footsteps. I say TTT website is NOT a lifesaver site but a killer site to MANY of 2x2s friends and workers. Now, you know why I had warned Chau about TTT website in 2007.Nathan it's only a 'killer' site if you buy into the belief that the 2x2's are the only way to be saved. That isn't the way it is so I don't see the harm in people leaving when they feel that they've been lied to, or nothing is being done about serious issues within the group. If the overseers were more transparent, addressed issues, etc. people wouldn't be leaving because of something they read. Their experience has to match and be worthwhile in order for them to stay.
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 23:53:14 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 23:53:14 GMT -5
I don't think Uncle Chau was concerned about MT learning the truth about the beginnings. Do you? I believe he does... Otherwise he wouldn't tell her NOT reading thing on " the Internet, READING many things! there you may lose YOUR souls."That doesn't make sense Nathan. How and when our church started has absolutely nothing to do with losing one's soul. Are you suggesting that believing a lie is necessary to avoid losing one's soul?
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Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 0:03:11 GMT -5
That doesn't make sense Nathan. How and when our church started has absolutely nothing to do with losing one's soul. Are you suggesting that believing a lie is necessary to avoid losing one's soul? Wake up! and SMELL the coffee. I have seen it happened for 20 yrs. I see it happen on TMB the last 17 yrs. Don't tell me you don't know these things. Yes, some of them/2x2s have become atheists and say there is no God. There are quite a few posting on TMB and you know them. The solution is for the overseers and their staff to tell the truth. People leave when they discover they've been lied to.
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Post by snow on Feb 2, 2014 0:08:10 GMT -5
The solution is for the overseers and their staff to tell the truth. People leave when they discover they've been lied to. what is the Truth? Tell me what you think is your truth, then I will let you know you're believing a lie or notNathan, are you saying that you know more about what is true than fixit?
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Post by question325 on Feb 2, 2014 0:31:03 GMT -5
I have been reading about the VN situation and trying to understand it - now I find it curious that Dean Bruer, the overseer of Montana/Wyoming has just been there for Conventions. He has been traveling through Cambodia, then Vietnam during January and is now headed to Hong Kong, Mongolia and China before returning to Montana. Were there other overseers in attendance besides Dean?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 0:38:49 GMT -5
Exactly. It doesn't take a revelation from God to see the difference between the Nov 9 letter and the one less than two weeks later? A change of heart toward repentance and feeling sorry? For anyone who thinks that, I have a bridge to sell! I think Willis was genuinely sorry..... ...that his actions were discovered. The November 9, 1996 letter shows that Willis didn't expect the document to "get into the hands of the dissenters". Exactly. He was sorry that people got upset over what he was convinced was the right thing to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 0:47:35 GMT -5
How can anyone be a member of something they know nothing about or never joined? I don't see a member list, nor do I see that everyone who attends meeting is compelled to be a member of the incorporated Society. The only thing that can be certain is that every member of the Society attends meetings and conventions, not vice versa. Furthermore, members were to receive notice of meetings. Since no one (that I know of) received such notices, I would say that the incorporated Society had no known members. Members would have to be added via a membership role. It was deceitful to have a membership with few if any members. Would Willis have told the Hungarian authorities that there were few if any members, and that the vast majority of the church knew nothing about the society? It was pure deception and Willis had no right to do it. It was deceitful that some of Willis's staff denied its existence: Membership was nominally quite open, but if no one knew about it how could they apply for membership? Fraudulent isn't the right word for it as that is usually associated with a criminal action. Deception may be more accurate in that it may have deceived the Romanian government that there were a lot of members backing the foreign missionaries but we don't know that. We do know that the Society had the resources to back the promises made to the Romanian government which included a promise to ensure that the foreign missionaries had sufficient support from the home country. The primary complaint against Mr.Propp was the fact that "we are not an organization" and that is what had so many people upset.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 0:58:16 GMT -5
I am aware of the fact that senior workers in rare occasions have the capacity to back down from things they regard as personal mistakes. A senior worker backed over our cat one time and said , "I am really sorry"!! But the work as an institution never backs down, as far as I have ever been made aware of. The reason Willis was able to back down on the Alberta registration documents, was that it was completely his own personal decision to apply for registration .. none of the other overseers had been consulted or approved of it. When they found out about it, they ('the works' central body) forced him to 'undo' the process because they said 'This was not an approved decision'!.. which he did .
This mistake taught him the personal lesson --- If you are going to make major changes .. get approval from the 'high council' first -- which he carefully did after this fiasco ---- For instance he applied for and got the approval of the other top 2x2 figures before the great Alberta mass-excommunication episode. When 'the work' makes decisions, they cannot back down.
I have seen in Dale Shultz letter to Vietnam, how he carefully explained that the decision was made not only by himself, but together with other top 2x2 figures .. to me this abolished all hopes of a retraction of this ungodly policy for Vietnam by 2x2ism. The work as an institution NEVER makes mistakes -- they feel they are God on the earth.
I have another interesting example of Eldon Knudson (Swedens overseer) being forced to retract a decision he had made -- He had given one of the friends in Sweden the go-ahead to have a meeting in his home .. 35 years after a divorce and remarriage. But when the European high council found out a few months later, they forced Eldon to back down on this, and go back to this poor man and say -- 'Sorry but you can't have a meeting in your home because the high council in Europe doesn't approve.'
When we were rejected from 2x2ism in 2001 were were informed that our expulsion was approved by both the North American council, and the European council. .. and could not be changed!!!
Edgar
Dan 6:8-10 Now, O king, establish the decree, and sign the writing, that it be not changed, according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which altereth not.
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Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 2:57:10 GMT -5
When we were rejected from 2x2ism in 2001 were were informed that our expulsion was approved by both the North American council, and the European council. .. and could not be changed!!! Can I ask who informed you of that? Was it the Swedish overseer? Which North American council was involved - was it the eastern or the western or both?
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Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 3:02:20 GMT -5
The solution is for the overseers and their staff to tell the truth. People leave when they discover they've been lied to. what is the Truth? Tell me what you think is your truth, then I will let you know you're believing a lie or notCherie has been careful to get the history right, relying only on primary documents. If workers had been as careful as Cherie, they wouldn't have created the mess of people believing the shores of Galilee fairy tale.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 4:29:31 GMT -5
When we were rejected from 2x2ism in 2001 were were informed that our expulsion was approved by both the North American council, and the European council. .. and could not be changed!!! Can I ask who informed you of that? Was it the Swedish overseer? Which North American council was involved - was it the eastern or the western or both? It was Eldon K that carefully explained this to us --- He refered to the European council where he had been for a meeting, and it would have been the Western council he refered to in North America. Dale S was at the convention in Stockholm where it happened 2001, just outsidet the left garage door to the convention building on the picture I will enclose.
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 2, 2014 10:19:49 GMT -5
So, you think Chau is telling lies when he wrote this to Minhthanh.... minhthanh said: Uncle Chau admonished me MANY times. Chau wants us to return to the fellowship. "Please, don't waste your time on internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul!"I don't think Uncle Chau was concerned about MT learning the truth about the beginnings. Do you? Nathan !... Uncle Châu is telling lies or not, just he & God knows. I had answered to uncle Châu as I had post in this board that, we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lie, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. We are full of happy now. In Psalm 12 It's our prayer to The Lord, 1 Help, Lord, for no one is faithful anymore;
those who are loyal have vanished from the human race. and His answer in 5 “Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan,
I will now arise,” says the Lord.
“I will protect them from those who malign them.”
We have peace with joy under God's shadow. May I share with you our wonderful fellowship and gospel meeting this morning, 25 friends all together with joyfull heart, uncluded 3 foreigner friends. We all have the encouragement together through hearing and sharing. After the gospel meeting, there was a man suddenly standing up, speaking some words showing his desire to profess, serving our God, after two years hearing the message from uncle Hoa. We do know that not only us on this earth, but also in The Heaven have the same joy with us to have a new life. Within 3 months we have had 7 friends go into our fellowship with God. (There are 3 people come to listening the gospel this morning). After the fellowship meeting on New Lunar Year Sunday Morning
A man standing up saying some words showing desire to profess
Uncle Hoa's Congratulation
A meal with uncle Hoa on the New Lunar Year Sunday
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2014 11:16:42 GMT -5
MT, you have had a glorious start to your New Lunar Year! Thank you for all you have shared.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2014 12:40:35 GMT -5
I don't think Uncle Chau was concerned about MT learning the truth about the beginnings. Do you? Nathan !... Uncle Châu is telling lies or not, just he & God knows. I had answered to uncle Châu as I had post in this board that, we will never return to that fellowship just because seeing all the happening in VN, with lie, untrue, injustice, without unity and love. We are full of happy now. In Psalm 12 It's our prayer to The Lord, 1 Help, Lord, for no one is faithful anymore;
those who are loyal have vanished from the human race. and His answer in 5 “Because the poor are plundered and the needy groan,
I will now arise,” says the Lord.
“I will protect them from those who malign them.”
We have peace with joy under God's shadow. May I share with you our wonderful fellowship and gospel meeting this morning, 25 friends all together with joyfull heart, uncluded 3 foreigner friends. We all have the encouragement together through hearing and sharing. After the gospel meeting, there was a man suddenly standing up, speaking some words showing his desire to profess, serving our God, after two years hearing the message from uncle Hoa. We do know that not only us on this earth, but also in The Heaven have the same joy with us to have a new life. Within 3 months we have had 7 friends go into our fellowship with God. (There are 3 people come to listening the gospel this morning). After the fellowship meeting on New Lunar Year Sunday Morning
A man standing up saying some words showing desire to profess
Uncle Hoa's Congratulation
A meal with uncle Hoa on the New Lunar Year SundayThat is really great news! It sounds like your meeting is a very healthy one, and doing much better than any other one I have heard of. That is really something to have 7 people join with you in fellowship in the last 3 months. That wouldn't be happening if God wasn't with you. I rejoice with you and those friends. It sounds like you have a wonderful fellowship, and it is really nice to hear that there are 25 of you gathering together to share encouragement with each other.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 2, 2014 12:41:50 GMT -5
Wonder how many those foreign workers have attracted to their version of the gospel during that time.......
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Vietnam
Feb 2, 2014 20:47:39 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Feb 2, 2014 20:47:39 GMT -5
I have been reading about the VN situation and trying to understand it - now I find it curious that Dean Bruer, the overseer of Montana/Wyoming has just been there for Conventions. He has been traveling through Cambodia, then Vietnam during January and is now headed to Hong Kong, Mongolia and China before returning to Montana. Were there other overseers in attendance besides Dean? I didn't know how many overseers attandance beside Dean. But at least one more come from Philippine is overseer Jim Girton.
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Vietnam
Feb 2, 2014 21:42:03 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 21:42:03 GMT -5
Can I ask who informed you of that? Was it the Swedish overseer? Which North American council was involved - was it the eastern or the western or both? It was Eldon K that carefully explained this to us --- He refered to the European council where he had been for a meeting, and it would have been the Western council he refered to in North America. Dale S was at the convention in Stockholm where it happened 2001 Dale Shultz is a powerful man in the 2x2 church. I hope one day he comes to see that ministry is about pointing people to Christ, not controlling them. A church made up of man-led people is not what God is looking for.
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Vietnam
Feb 2, 2014 21:53:08 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 2, 2014 21:53:08 GMT -5
MT has suggested a solution to the mess in Vietnam caused by Dale Shultz and his overseer buddies. Does anyone know where Mike Thorstenson is now? Will the overseers get jealous of him as well, and push him aside? Disagreeing with the Canadian overseer, uncle Hoa stopped cooperating with Darrel in August 2010. He wrote a letter to workers and overseers who have the responsibility to God’s work. Introduce Mike to be an overseer replace for Darrel. Uncle Hoa, uncle Châu and all friends will support to Mike as being an overseer. To solve the mess and restore the unity among F&W in VN. But there was no answer for uncle Hoa’s promote. Mike visited my parents one time. For answer to many questions of my Father. Mike said: “I wish Lyle never wrote that letter !!!” I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse.
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Vietnam
Feb 2, 2014 22:18:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by gecko45 on Feb 2, 2014 22:18:04 GMT -5
Mike Thorsteson came back last summer with very poor health. The last I heard he was not in any condition to return to any foreign fields let alone a position of responsibility.
A real tragedy for all of us who care about our friends in Vietnam, he truly has the heart of a shepherd.
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Vietnam
Feb 2, 2014 23:56:50 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by sunshine on Feb 2, 2014 23:56:50 GMT -5
When we were rejected from 2x2ism in 2001 were were informed that our expulsion was approved by both the North American council, and the European council. .. and could not be changed!!! Can I ask who informed you of that? Was it the Swedish overseer? Which North American council was involved - was it the eastern or the western or both? Edgar, did they really use the word "council" ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 3:01:03 GMT -5
They are somewhat secretive about the existence of these councils -- but Eldon did refer to it when he tried to spread the responsibility for our rejection to the council in Luxemburg and to the senior workers in North America. He also referred to it when he was forced to retract his Sunday meeting plans for the divorced couple in southern Sweden. www.anotherstep.net/Luxemborg2005.htmWhen I was in the work, they referred to them as the get-togethers to discuss convention visitor plans. I remember Willie Smiley leaving for one of these meetings one time when we were companions, and I pointed out that he had already showed me the visitors plans for the convention season --- He said "Oh yes, just finalize them -- and then there are a great many other things to discuss!!!
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 3, 2014 5:29:38 GMT -5
Mike Thorsteson came back last summer with very poor health. The last I heard he was not in any condition to return to any foreign fields let alone a position of responsibility. A real tragedy for all of us who care about our friends in Vietnam, he truly has the heart of a shepherd. Mike Thorstenson has a tender heart, we all miss and appreciate his labor time in VN. After uncle Hoa sending his suggestion introduced Mike Thorstenson to be an oversser. We didn't know the reason why no sooner brother Mike left VN, many stories were made up at that time as I had posted in this board before !!! What a pity for Mike, being seperated with friends, who do love and respect him. Till now the reason why Mike had to leave VN, still a mystery with us, because many unreasonable rumor was raised. I do know Mike never be back to VN for labor, not only because of his health. He was so pain with the happening, may be the mess effect to his health today. Brother Mike came to my house to say goodbye with uncle Hoa.
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 3, 2014 6:58:00 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about any workers leaving. I was talking about what happened to the fellowship there. Interesting that Chau is continuing in the work....but has been put out of the work..... Can you give us some facts concerning your statement that Chau does not agree with Hoa's decision to leave the work? Did he tell you that? Or do you suppose that Chau is holding out hope that the foreigners will decide to leave the country and it will return to what it was before they came in and destroyed the fellowship there? Chau has written to me that, Hoa had problems with Darrel when they were together as companions in 2009. Minhthanh wrote some where on here, when Hoa left the work.... chau said, "May God be with you" He didn't join up with Hoa. Chau is holding out because he believes this way if of God, and God will sort things out in His own time. Chau wants Lyle S. to TRUST him, he is not going to turn against them. Chau is for them NOT against them. Chau wants to help the current friends, and the golden friends in VN but it seems Dale thinks they could do without Chau's help right now. Chau accepts their decision and just labor until his time is over on this earth.Uncle Hoa is staying a couple days with us now. I have asked him how about the problem he met with Darrel when they were together as companion in 2009. His answer that "I don't have any problem with Darrel in 2009." Maybe you confused or uncle Châu gave you a wrong information !!!... I Just want to made clear this unreal information only.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 7:21:09 GMT -5
Minh Thanh --- This was a very interesting piece of information to me. I find it quite upsetting because it reveals a very very dishonest aspect of 2x2ism often used when they try to justify the ungodly policies they have toward people that they have rejected. The ugly policy of retroactively manufacturing filth to slander the folks they have already beaten and knocked into the ditch. This exact same tactic is also documented in the story of how Marg Magowan was abused by 2x2 leadership well after they had expelled her. www.anotherstep.net/summary/constructedfilth.htm . WELL AFTER she was expelled they brought up problems that no one had ever heard of before .. and were never mentioned to her before either .. about problems they implied she had had years before with leadership and companions. This is equivalent of without mercy continuing to kick and abuse victims that are already laying beaten and bruised by their organization. A policy of dishonesty that isn't worthy the Christian label. I am very sorry to hear that Hoa has also become a victim of this ugliness. Give Hoa our kindest regards, and heartfelt thankfulness from us for the faithfulness to his calling he has shown.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 7:48:23 GMT -5
They are somewhat secretive about the existence of these councils -- but Eldon did refer to it when he tried to spread the responsibility for our rejection to the council in Luxemburg and to the senior workers in North America. He also referred to it when he was forced to retract his Sunday meeting plans for the divorced couple in southern Sweden. www.anotherstep.net/Luxemborg2005.htmWhen I was in the work, they referred to them as the get-togethers to discuss convention visitor plans. I remember Willie Smiley leaving for one of these meetings one time when we were companions, and I pointed out that he had already showed me the visitors plans for the convention season --- He said "Oh yes, just finalize them -- and then there are a great many other things to discuss!!! I don't think you actually answered sunshine's question. Have you ever heard the word "council" used? Did EK actually use the word in English or in its equivalent Swedish translation? Personally, I've never heard the term used by any worker or friend with regard to overseer meetings.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2014 8:19:25 GMT -5
They are somewhat secretive about the existence of these councils -- but Eldon did refer to it when he tried to spread the responsibility for our rejection to the council in Luxemburg and to the senior workers in North America. He also referred to it when he was forced to retract his Sunday meeting plans for the divorced couple in southern Sweden. www.anotherstep.net/Luxemborg2005.htmWhen I was in the work, they referred to them as the get-togethers to discuss convention visitor plans. I remember Willie Smiley leaving for one of these meetings one time when we were companions, and I pointed out that he had already showed me the visitors plans for the convention season --- He said "Oh yes, just finalize them -- and then there are a great many other things to discuss!!! I don't think you actually answered sunshine's question. Have you ever heard the word "council" used? Did EK actually use the word in English or in its equivalent Swedish translation? Personally, I've never heard the term used by any worker or friend with regard to overseer meetings. To tell you the truth I can't remember which language we used --- But probably Swedish as my children were present. The Swedish word for council is 'råd' which can mean advice or council - translate.google.se/translate_t?newwindow=1&espv=210&es_sm=122&q=council&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sl=en&tl=sv&sa=X&ei=tpXvUuKqGKao4gSQ5IDIDw&ved=0CC4QrgYwAA#en/sv/councilWorkers aren't particularly anxious to talk about overseer meetings at all -- (because the only leadership they have is God in heaven!!) They actively deny the existence of earthly leadership. From what I understand, they were quite upset about the above picture getting leaked to the 'dissenters'!!! I got it from folks in Germany that had got if from a worker that was present. (an unidentified worker)
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