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Feb 1, 2014 13:07:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 13:07:44 GMT -5
Come on, CD... look at the cup half full once in awhile NOT half empty all the time. Don't be so negative ... Let's us have some hope and encourage others for the better. Think of the positive side for a change. When I read Willis apology I don't come to the same conclusion the way you have. What's so negative about affirming that Willis was ok with doing the incorporation? I am commenting on the two letters based on information that I received at the time it was happening. I am not reading between the lines here. I did get phone calls from Alberta after both letters were sent out. It's called realism. Neither optimism nor pessimism promote realism or the truth. Apologies by workers and overseers are simply not part of their policy or disposition. I am sure there are some real apologies out there on rare occasions but it just doesn't occur whenever there were mistakes made. It's not going to happen in VN in any way that will make things right.
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Feb 1, 2014 13:22:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 13:22:17 GMT -5
What's so negative about affirming that Willis was ok with doing the incorporation? I am commenting on the two letters based on information that I received at the time it was happening. I am not reading between the lines here. I did get phone calls from Alberta after both letters were sent out. It's called realism. Neither optimism nor pessimism promote realism or the truth. You are entitled to your own opinion. BUT Willis apologized for his mistakes and Alberta Incorp. was revoked or done away with. Plain and Clear as DAY.It's not my opinion Nathan, this is from information that comes from Alberta. I'm just passing it on. The first letter is his true response to the crisis. Yes, in the second letter he stated he was "Totally" wrong, not "totally wrong". Do you see any difference there?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 13:34:26 GMT -5
The Canadians like to stick, help, and working together... B.C. Alberta, Sk Canadians have been working together in VN for years. They were very helpful in VN, then Darrel T. made a big mess out of it when he tried to have a complete control of the work in VN, by eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work.... Sending the Americans, Chinese, Koreans worker who disagree with him out of VN. So, Darrel's Canadian staff has VN all to themselves. I believe it was Dale S. that removed Darrel T. from VN and calling his brother Lyle S. to help him out, and fixing the damages. Lyle S. has little understanding of the Vietnamese people, thinking, culture, so it will take him awhile to figure it out how to fix Darrel's Mess. Lyle S made the mess became bigger, more broken between families. I wonder how long for him to fixe the mess. It is nearly 4 years !!! I have many things to prove that the mess never be fixed... May I bet with you Nathan. I don't want to post here how hard for uncle Châu now, just only not bring uncle Châu face with hard condition. He is old. I also know that many of his relatives reading here. (His brother Hiền is being the member on this board). They all very sad and angry, when uncle Châu niece (Duyên Thơ) informed to her father all the sad news relating to uncle Châu. Uncle Châu have asked me not saying any more about his situation. Many things Nathan had post, showing that he didn't know the real image in VN. Of course uncle Châu always wants to show the good image, and hiding their bad behaviors because of his love to them. Even he doesn't want to hear the true things Lyle S had made during the time he left VN. I just wait and see... Do hope that he will get rid of the chain upon him before too late. Your dear Uncle Chau needs all of our prayers. It encourages my heart that you, and so many others in VN, obviously love him.
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Feb 1, 2014 13:44:51 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 13:44:51 GMT -5
It's not my opinion Nathan, this is from information that comes from Alberta. I'm just passing it on. The first letter is his true response to the crisis. Yes, in the second letter he stated he was "Totally" wrong, not "totally wrong". Do you see any difference there? It was quite a thing for Willis P. to write and explain his mistakes... That is the main point! What you think you know behind the scene it matters of opinions. Willis made the mistakes and he ADMITED it and taken the full responsibility for his unwise decision without letting other overseer knowing of his plans!That's the point Nathan. He didn't make any mistakes as everything he did was to further the gospel. Why are you so negative? His Nov 9th letter explains it clearly and that he cancelled the incorporation.....no apology necessary.
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Feb 1, 2014 14:10:58 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 14:10:58 GMT -5
Lyle S made the mess became bigger, more broken between families. I wonder how long for him to fixe the mess. It is nearly 4 years !!! I have many things to prove that the mess never be fixed... May I bet with you Nathan. I don't want to post here how hard for uncle Châu now, just only not bring uncle Châu face with hard condition. He is old. I also know that many of his relatives reading here. (His brother Hiền is being the member on this board). They all very sad and angry, when uncle Châu niece (Duyên Thơ) informed to her father all the sad news relating to uncle Châu. Uncle Châu have asked me not saying any more about his situation. Many things Nathan had post, showing that he didn't know the real image in VN. Of course uncle Châu always wants to show the good image, and hiding their bad behaviors because of his love to them. Even he doesn't want to hear the true things Lyle S had made during the time he left VN. I just wait and see... Do hope that he will get rid of the chain upon him before too late. Minhthanh...as you may have read Lazarus' accounting of al the bitter disappointment he had when at 50 yrs. old in regards to the actual truth that the 2x2's were a fairly new sect of religion and were not from the shores of Galilee. Those who have put their heart and soul into the 2x2's, particularly those who were and are workers will find it almost impossible to discount the religion as to what it really is...that there was NO continuation of the Acts of the Apostles. It is a setdown of pride that one has when one has believed and poured their life's blood into to come to the knowledge that one has literally been serving a fallacy! Some workers can not do that...so they continue at the will of their overseers......and IF any of those workers let their overseer know of the knowledge they have about the 2x2's founders, etc then that overseer may be extra hard upon that knowledgeable worker under him. So prayers need be offered for those who find them unable to accept the real truth and leave it due to all they've spent for it in matters of years and heart and soul......may God give them strength and grace to be strong in God, not man! I've been reading the internet sites for at least 20 years and can say that the history is not my biggest concern. What does bitterly disappoint me is the tendency for system-minded friends and workers to disregard the immutable principles of the kingdom of heaven in order to defend the man made kingdom of the overseers. Their carnal, earthly, political paradigm advances the power and the glory of the system and its hierarchy......at the expense of the power and the glory of God.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 14:37:25 GMT -5
~~ I have been exchanging PM with a worker, who had been companion with Lyle S. in India. He speaks very highly of Lyle S. in handling different difficult situation when he was companion with him in India. He is reading and following this VN topic with great concern. If Dale S. is NOT improving the situation in VN and NOT fixing the MESS but making it worse than before. He too should be removed and They MUST sent in a specialist/trouble shooter worker, who can FIX it and make thing right over there. I nominate Graham Thompson for the job. The overseer domination system has created the mess, and I doubt the overseer domination system is capable of fixing it. Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic is rather futile.
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Feb 1, 2014 14:51:27 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 14:51:27 GMT -5
I agree with Willis....he did nothing wrong by incorporating and no apology was necessary.....except when it became politically necessary. I think the way Willis went about the Incorporation was disgusting. He incorporated the organization without telling the friends or most of the workers.
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Feb 1, 2014 15:10:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 15:10:32 GMT -5
I agree with Willis....he did nothing wrong by incorporating and no apology was necessary.....except when it became politically necessary. I think the way Willis went about the Incorporation was disgusting. He incorporated the organization without telling the friends or most of the workers. What you are saying then is that the way everything all the overseers do is disgusting, because they don't inform or discuss anything with the friends unless they have no other choice. Willis was just being a normal overseer so I don't see anything abnormal about him from an overseer perspective.
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Feb 1, 2014 15:28:49 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 15:28:49 GMT -5
What you are saying then is that the way everything all the overseers do is disgusting, because they don't inform or discuss anything with the friends unless they have no other choice. Willis was just being a normal overseer so I don't see anything abnormal about him from an overseer perspective. I was specifically referring to the Incorporation as a separate issue. Willis included the friends and most of the workers into an incorporated society without their consent. How about this clause: 14. At all meetings of the Members, each Member shall be entitled to one vote and may vote in person or by proxy duly authorized…At all meetings of Members, every question shall be decided by a majority of votes of the Members present in person or represented by proxy.How can members vote if they don't know they are members and don't know there's a meeting for that purpose? And this clause: 6. Any member may withdraw from the Society by delivering to the Society a written resignation as a Member.How can one resign from something that they don't know they are a member of?
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 1, 2014 15:48:54 GMT -5
I would think of it this way. Apologies flow up the hierarchy, sometimes laterally, but almost never downward. It's not really any different than any other authoritarian system.
It's very possible that Darrel will owe Dale an apology and explanation for his actions in Vietnam. But highly unlikely that Chau, Hoa or any of the VN friends will receive any sort of apology.
The Willis Propp letter was really an apology and concession to the other overseers (and from what I've read, the visa story was a complete fabrication). Was an apology ever issued to the excommunicated friends and their families in Alberta?
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Feb 1, 2014 15:58:49 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Feb 1, 2014 15:58:49 GMT -5
I nominate Graham Thompson for the job. The overseer domination system has created the mess, and I doubt the overseer domination system is capable of fixing it. Rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic is rather futile. I agree... I have been reading and following Graham Thompson journey with CSA issue. He is indeed a servant of God. No nonsense when it comes to speaking and dealing with CSA in the ministry. There must be more Graham Thompson calibers out there they could sent to VN. I am anxious to see who they will send next. They will be very careful which worker they sent the next time to VN... Darrel and Lyle S. are not good choices.
My recommendation: is Craig Jacobsen! (Dennis J. nephew) He is a good one, He stands up for truth without fear. I saw him stood up for me and confronted Howard M. face to face for his meaness toward me, in his old age. He is very calm and cool a summer breeze. He didn't stay in the bedroom, doing nothing when I was his younger co-worker. We had bible studies at the college, Bible studies with strangers, looking up contacts, passing out gospel invitation door to door every week. We keep ourselves very busy! He let me speak/sharing my thoughts during the Bible studies. Another worker is Jay Wicks! He is another Howard M. worker type, in his younger years. If these two were sent to Vietnam Things will get straighten out in no time. They are good working combination dynamic duals, I had been as their younger co-workers. We had very interesting years with many challenges experiences together.
Thanks, Cherie and fixit for posting the Alberta Incorp. document. I will post with Willis P. letters of Apology. Nate: The Alberta Inc document" posted above is MY SUMMARY - it is NOT the actual document.
The actual Inc. doc is posted on the RIS website: workersect.org/2x205rb.html
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 1, 2014 18:01:04 GMT -5
My friemd who lives in USA invited uncle Dale.S to her house, after her visiting VN and Cambodia. She heard from many friends in VN through her visit, and also witness the division among friends by attend the meeting at her own place in the past (Mỹ Tho). Sharing her own seeing and asking some changes for a better situation to Dale.S. But uncle Dale.S said to her "Nothing will be changed..." She left the felowship after that, even no F&W at her place in USA made her sad. But seeing the highest person related to this mess didn't want to change.
One Godly worker who knows, hears and witness the happening in VN. Also the one who labour longtime in VN with full of love. Never hearing a hard word from him. We all love him for his true love for our souls. He was painfull to see the flock was devided. His name is Mike (Michael Thorsteinson) a lovely worker from USA. He also a great helpful company with uncle Hoa in the past.
Disagreeing with the Canadian overseer, uncle Hoa stopped cooperating with Darrel in August 2010. He wrote a letter to workers and overseers who have the responsibility to God’s work. Introduce Mike to be an overseer replace for Darrel. Uncle Hoa, uncle Châu and all friends will support to Mike as being an overseer. To solve the mess and restore the unity among F&W in VN. But there was no answer for uncle Hoa’s promote.
Mike visited my parents one time. For answer to many questions of my Father. Mike said: “I wish Lyle never wrote that letter !!!”
I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse.
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Feb 1, 2014 18:18:38 GMT -5
Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 18:18:38 GMT -5
My friemd who lives in USA invited uncle Dale.S to her house, after her visiting VN and Cambodia. She heard from many friends in VN through her visit, and also witness the division among friends by attend the meeting at her own place in the past (Mỹ Tho). Sharing her own seeing and asking some changes for a better situation to Dale.S. But uncle Dale.S said to her "Nothing will be changed..." She left the felowship after that, even no F&W at her place in USA made her sad. But seeing the highest person related to this mess didn't want to change. One Godly worker who knows, hears and witness the happening in VN. Also the one who labour longtime in VN with full of love. Never hearing a hard word from him. We all love him for his true love for our souls. He was painfull to see the flock was devided. His name is Mike (Michael Thorsteinson) a lovely worker from USA. He also a great helpful company with uncle Hoa in the past. Disagreeing with the Canadian overseer, uncle Hoa stopped cooperating with Darrel in August 2010. He wrote a letter to workers and overseers who have the responsibility to God’s work. Introduce Mike to be an overseer replace for Darrel. Uncle Hoa, uncle Châu and all friends will support to Mike as being an overseer. To solve the mess and restore the unity among F&W in VN. But there was no answer for uncle Hoa’s promote. Mike visited my parents one time. For answer to many questions of my Father. Mike said: “I wish Lyle never wrote that letter !!!” I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse. I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse.
The way it is going, more than likely Dale is going to continue to send inept and ineffective people there. It is a reflection on the one who is pulling the strings that he really isn't a very effective leader in the church, and really doesn't care for the welfare of the church (the people), but rather cares about power and dictating how he thinks things should be done. Once again, we see an overseer utilizing his 'power' to further destroy the fellowship and drive people away. So much for unity within the church.....
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Feb 1, 2014 18:20:16 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 18:20:16 GMT -5
What you are saying then is that the way everything all the overseers do is disgusting, because they don't inform or discuss anything with the friends unless they have no other choice. Willis was just being a normal overseer so I don't see anything abnormal about him from an overseer perspective. I was specifically referring to the Incorporation as a separate issue. Willis included the friends and most of the workers into an incorporated society without their consent. How about this clause: 14. At all meetings of the Members, each Member shall be entitled to one vote and may vote in person or by proxy duly authorized…At all meetings of Members, every question shall be decided by a majority of votes of the Members present in person or represented by proxy.How can members vote if they don't know they are members and don't know there's a meeting for that purpose? And this clause: 6. Any member may withdraw from the Society by delivering to the Society a written resignation as a Member.How can one resign from something that they don't know they are a member of? How can anyone be a member of something they know nothing about or never joined? I don't see a member list, nor do I see that everyone who attends meeting is compelled to be a member of the incorporated Society. The only thing that can be certain is that every member of the Society attends meetings and conventions, not vice versa. Furthermore, members were to receive notice of meetings. Since no one (that I know of) received such notices, I would say that the incorporated Society had no known members. Members would have to be added via a membership role. Another clause says that members were teachers of the gospel. That would exclude most friends. Members could be expelled by a Board vote. That again would exclude most friends as they are expelled by private means with the approval of the overseer, not by a 3/4 majority vote of the Board. It is difficult to know whether Propp's intentions were to add a member role to the Society on a voluntary basis of the friends to join or whether he was going to do nothing with it and leave it as a shell. I just don't see any active "members" of the Society existing in 1995 and 1996. Legally, I doubt that anyone could be named as member of a legal entity without consent. My guess is that membership of the Society was going to be very limited. The documents indicate a required annual meeting where financial statements would be presented and other business transacted around the time of conventions. Again, I know of no Alberta friends invited to such an annual meeting in the summer of 1995 or 1996 so I think it is safe to assume there were either no members at all or there were very few up to the time of dissolution. Interestingly, the Society could have become the basis for the elimination of the supreme power of the overseer and give every "member" a vote in the operation of the Society. We complain about the power of the Canadians in VN and the supreme power of the overseers (as GT is primarily concerned about), so one would think that the potential for some or all the friends to become voting members of the Society that may govern the system of friends and workers is a good thing.
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Feb 1, 2014 18:43:03 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 18:43:03 GMT -5
My friemd who lives in USA invited uncle Dale.S to her house, after her visiting VN and Cambodia. She heard from many friends in VN through her visit, and also witness the division among friends by attend the meeting at her own place in the past (Mỹ Tho). Sharing her own seeing and asking some changes for a better situation to Dale.S. But uncle Dale.S said to her "Nothing will be changed..." She left the felowship after that, even no F&W at her place in USA made her sad. But seeing the highest person related to this mess didn't want to change. That is what we have expected. It is the sign of a proud and "stiff-necked" ministry. This is a ministry that expects to be considered right even when it is wrong, or at least that is the Schultz doctrine.
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Feb 1, 2014 18:55:12 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 18:55:12 GMT -5
Minhthanh...as you may have read Lazarus' accounting of al the bitter disappointment he had when at 50 yrs. old in regards to the actual truth that the 2x2's were a fairly new sect of religion and were not from the shores of Galilee. Those who have put their heart and soul into the 2x2's, particularly those who were and are workers will find it almost impossible to discount the religion as to what it really is...that there was NO continuation of the Acts of the Apostles. It is a setdown of pride that one has when one has believed and poured their life's blood into to come to the knowledge that one has literally been serving a fallacy! Some workers can not do that...so they continue at the will of their overseers......and IF any of those workers let their overseer know of the knowledge they have about the 2x2's founders, etc then that overseer may be extra hard upon that knowledgeable worker under him. So prayers need be offered for those who find them unable to accept the real truth and leave it due to all they've spent for it in matters of years and heart and soul......may God give them strength and grace to be strong in God, not man! I've been reading the internet sites for at least 20 years and can say that the history is not my biggest concern. What does bitterly disappoint me is the tendency for system-minded friends and workers to disregard the immutable principles of the kingdom of heaven in order to defend the man made kingdom of the overseers. Their carnal, earthly, political paradigm advances the power and the glory of the system and its hierarchy......at the expense of the power and the glory of God. Fixit, I agree with you. And I strongly think that those who know the beginnings but yet stay within the fellowship have to turn their heads from something or they'd be totally wiped out emotionally. I know my relative is going to be one of those kind...to keep repeating the "way is perfect, but the people aren't" is another mind blinding statement for those who have fallen for what 's been given to them as the "only true way"....brainwashing sometimes is hard to over come.... As to the carnal worship of the workers, etc, there are parts of scriptures that are given to the people such as "to obey those who have the rule over you." Another is what Jesus himself said.... (Mat 23:1-4 KJV) Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, {2} Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: {3} All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. {4} For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. www.wwyd.org/Studies/Moses_Seat.htmThis website tries to open up that saying of Jesus as to what he meant when he said to do what those sitting in Moses' seat bids them to do......but yet he goes on and says don't do as the scribes and Pharisees.....many people have come to this scripture and as they mention end up saying "huh?" This is the Jewish translation or the Matthew gospel written in Jewish language. "The Pharisees and sages sit upon the seat of Moses. Therefore, all that he (Moses) says to you, diligently do, but according to their reforms (takanot) and their precedents (ma‘asim) do not do, because they talk but do not do."This Matt. 23'rd scripture is another one used often by those who control their members in "obeying" them...I think Dale Schultz is the number one repeater of the wrong idea of translation of that Scripture. He told them that they were to take what the ruling workers said or did EVEN if it was wrong. So since "submission" has been the number one gospel message in past years, the underling workers and the friends feel like they must "obey those who lead them." It's in the bible..... So yes, I personally agree with all you say, but there was a time that I was just as devout a friend as anyone....but until I read the history which begin to put a lot of questions in my mind though I continued to go to mtgs. Then when the awful dirty secrets of the CSA came out and then the fornications that came out and then the rapeing of sisters and friends....it is an old old story of how corruption has corrupted the whole church....it would be better for those who love their Sun. morning mtgs. to take themselves in hand and let their mtg. become and unsanctioned worker mtg.
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Feb 1, 2014 19:02:58 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 19:02:58 GMT -5
Thanks, Emy... I believe Hoa had been reading the TTT website for quite awhile. He had given a lot of thoughts... It takes awhile to digest a lot of the information on TTT website and come to certain conclusion. 15 yrs ago, it took me a few weeks and months to digest, taken the time to think about all of the information on Cherie's site. Where was she going with this? What is her purpose? After 20 yrs we can see the results of her website doing to the 2x2 group... Many have LEFT because of it. She wants many friends and workers to leave the 2x2 bus and ride on the 38,000 Super zoo bus! What's wrong with leaving the 2x2 bus? What's wrong with leaving the God bus altogether? Religions are so exclusive and dividing. I think more people should get on the human race bus and forget about all the stuff that divides. You're all fighting over whose God is right, then you all fight about which denomination is right, and then whose interpretation within that denomination is right and on and on. Can't anyone see how divisive all this is. Snow, I believe a lot of us can understand your questions you put before us. And thanks for giving us something to consider! As to the accusations that Nathan makes, he is parroting what every overseer that I've ever heard speak about Cherie's website.....surely by now workers as well as friends should realize that Cherie hasn't tried to stuff the history and other facts she's found down any ONE PERSON"S THROAT....I believe she has been as full of grief when someone else has read the facts and are grieving for what they thought they'd had all along and it all turns out to be a fallacy....and recently is becoming a dangerous one. I Feel that Nathan is fighting that battle of knowing what is factual but yet struggling to hang onto the 2x2 religion....he's just being more open about it that is....kind of like Lazarus mentioned in his great disappointment and grief! It isn't easy to turn loose of something that you'v eput your heart and soul into.....we all must pray that the "truth" wins out and no, I'm not calling the 2x2 fellowship "truth".
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Feb 1, 2014 19:28:09 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 19:28:09 GMT -5
After Eldon T. passed away in Calf. they felt it was better for an outsider to be the overseer. I was very surprised when I saw Dale S. became the overseer in Calf..... An Canadian overseer in USA soil? Wow... So there must be something going/power struggles in Calf. that we don't know about. Eldon T's extremely extremist, hardnecked and ungodly stand on the divorce and remarriage issue left some pretty deep scars in 2x2ism in the US -- To buy support in his shaky situation he became a staunch supporter of Willis P mass excommunication program in Alberta. This unholy alliance resulted eventually in the 'California solution' of Dale S. (Willis had far more 2x2 political power (because of the financial muscle) than he has been given credit for -- even long after the Alberta excommunications. Dale S was/is Willis P's continuation of power. Edgar, is it even possible though WP has retired "to work on his songs", that he is still manipulating things more or less to suit himself? I know sometimes these powerful workers do not like giving up their positions at the head of the political powers of the 2x2's. Saying that makes me wonder, do the workers when they have their worker mtgs. use the Roberts' rulesof order?
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Feb 1, 2014 19:37:38 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 19:37:38 GMT -5
Come on, CD... look at the cup half full once in awhile NOT half empty all the time. Don't be so negative ... Let's us have some hope and encourage others for the better. Think of the positive side for a change. When I read Willis apology I don't come to the same conclusion the way you have. What's so negative about affirming that Willis was ok with doing the incorporation? I am commenting on the two letters based on information that I received at the time it was happening. I am not reading between the lines here. I did get phone calls from Alberta after both letters were sent out. It's called realism. Neither optimism nor pessimism promote realism or the truth. Apologies by workers and overseers are simply not part of their policy or disposition. I am sure there are some real apologies out there on rare occasions but it just doesn't occur whenever there were mistakes made. It's not going to happen in VN in any way that will make things right. I've read WP's apologies before and had this same impression...he is really apologizing "publically" to his "brethren" which are the other overseers. The apology was worded to look like it meant anyone, but it really came down to WP appearing to have MORE power in the 2x2 workership/fellowship then all the other overseers. So they got a little bit peeved about such a put-down and made the rancor over him not consulting with them first...or making it a multi-overseer decision.
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Feb 1, 2014 19:42:10 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 19:42:10 GMT -5
What's so negative about affirming that Willis was ok with doing the incorporation? I am commenting on the two letters based on information that I received at the time it was happening. I am not reading between the lines here. I did get phone calls from Alberta after both letters were sent out. It's called realism. Neither optimism nor pessimism promote realism or the truth. You are entitled to your own opinion. BUT Willis apologized for his mistakes and Alberta Incorp. was revoked or done away with. Plain and Clear as DAY.... So, Edgar.... Never says Never. I have great hope for Lyle S. when he is wrong and NOT making progress in VN, admit it and GET out, let someone else who can FIX and improve the situation in VN takes over. I hope that Korean overseer, Ernest R. could take over. He has a better grasp in how the Orientals/Asian think and feel for being a worker in Korea for many years. I heard and met him at conventions many times when he was in USA as a visiting worker. Heard many good things about Ernest R... Maybe he could be the man. I know he has been coming to VN to look things over. If they gave him the responsibility he could fix it. He had some of the Korean on his staff labored in VN before. He would have some ideas, understanding of what is going in VN.Nathan, why in the realm of realism is it necessary to send some worker into VN when those golden friends were doing so well with the love of Jesus Christ strong in their hearts? Why was it really necessary that a Canadian commit all kinds of lying in order to get in there where it appears there was NO need for anyone to intercede! All is about keeping it under the developed country's thumb! Why is that necessary? Why do they want "man" to rule over people when those very people have elected Jesus Christ as their King of Kings and Lord of Lords? Why?
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Feb 1, 2014 19:46:47 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 19:46:47 GMT -5
What's so negative about affirming that Willis was ok with doing the incorporation? I am commenting on the two letters based on information that I received at the time it was happening. I am not reading between the lines here. I did get phone calls from Alberta after both letters were sent out. It's called realism. Neither optimism nor pessimism promote realism or the truth. Apologies by workers and overseers are simply not part of their policy or disposition. I am sure there are some real apologies out there on rare occasions but it just doesn't occur whenever there were mistakes made. It's not going to happen in VN in any way that will make things right. I've read WP's apologies before and had this same impression...he is really apologizing "publically" to his "brethren" which are the other overseers. The apology was worded to look like it meant anyone, but it really came down to WP appearing to have MORE power in the 2x2 workership/fellowship then all the other overseers. So they got a little bit peeved about such a put-down and made the rancor over him not consulting with them first...or making it a multi-overseer decision. Exactly. It doesn't take a revelation from God to see the difference between the Nov 9 letter and the one less than two weeks later? A change of heart toward repentance and feeling sorry? For anyone who thinks that, I have a bridge to sell!
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 19:59:34 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 19:59:34 GMT -5
My friemd who lives in USA invited uncle Dale.S to her house, after her visiting VN and Cambodia. She heard from many friends in VN through her visit, and also witness the division among friends by attend the meeting at her own place in the past (Mỹ Tho). Sharing her own seeing and asking some changes for a better situation to Dale.S. But uncle Dale.S said to her "Nothing will be changed..." She left the felowship after that, even no F&W at her place in USA made her sad. But seeing the highest person related to this mess didn't want to change. One Godly worker who knows, hears and witness the happening in VN. Also the one who labour longtime in VN with full of love. Never hearing a hard word from him. We all love him for his true love for our souls. He was painfull to see the flock was devided. His name is Mike (Michael Thorsteinson) a lovely worker from USA. He also a great helpful company with uncle Hoa in the past. Disagreeing with the Canadian overseer, uncle Hoa stopped cooperating with Darrel in August 2010. He wrote a letter to workers and overseers who have the responsibility to God’s work. Introduce Mike to be an overseer replace for Darrel. Uncle Hoa, uncle Châu and all friends will support to Mike as being an overseer. To solve the mess and restore the unity among F&W in VN. But there was no answer for uncle Hoa’s promote. Mike visited my parents one time. For answer to many questions of my Father. Mike said: “I wish Lyle never wrote that letter !!!” I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse. I wish no more strange workers come to VN. Who don’t know much about our situation, only made the mess become worse.
The way it is going, more than likely Dale is going to continue to send inept and ineffective people there. It is a reflection on the one who is pulling the strings that he really isn't a very effective leader in the church, and really doesn't care for the welfare of the church (the people), but rather cares about power and dictating how he thinks things should be done. Once again, we see an overseer utilizing his 'power' to further destroy the fellowship and drive people away. So much for unity within the church..... As Scott says, "Once again..." I wonder why it isn't of utmost importance to these powerful political overseers that their membership stay strong in numbers.....do they think they have enough money to keep them up in the style of life as they're used to having, that they don't need the friends or younger workers to keep the fellowship going...where they have claimed hospitality after hospitality? Are they all sick in the head? I know! They are sick in the heart....no compassion where compassion is needed! I've thought for some time now that the problem that the overseers of this day and age is likely attributed to how much hooey they got by with when they were younger workers. I know it is said that about a lot of baby boomer rulers or top men/women......the first generation that had it all at their fingertips and now as they get older, given the overseership job, they have no conscience because their conscience has been seared by their own ineptness or out and out criminality. even fornication would tear down their compassion. God said it...God said that when man enters into a wrong liason with other sexual partners that they are literally sinning against themselves! Thus they end up with reprobate minds?
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 20:01:18 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 20:01:18 GMT -5
I've read WP's apologies before and had this same impression...he is really apologizing "publically" to his "brethren" which are the other overseers. The apology was worded to look like it meant anyone, but it really came down to WP appearing to have MORE power in the 2x2 workership/fellowship then all the other overseers. So they got a little bit peeved about such a put-down and made the rancor over him not consulting with them first...or making it a multi-overseer decision. Exactly. It doesn't take a revelation from God to see the difference between the Nov 9 letter and the one less than two weeks later? A change of heart toward repentance and feeling sorry? For anyone who thinks that, I have a bridge to sell!Is it a covered bridge?
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Post by snow on Feb 1, 2014 21:05:48 GMT -5
What's wrong with leaving the 2x2 bus? What's wrong with leaving the God bus altogether? Religions are so exclusive and dividing. I think more people should get on the human race bus and forget about all the stuff that divides. You're all fighting over whose God is right, then you all fight about which denomination is right, and then whose interpretation within that denomination is right and on and on. Can't anyone see how divisive all this is. Snow, I believe a lot of us can understand your questions you put before us. And thanks for giving us something to consider! As to the accusations that Nathan makes, he is parroting what every overseer that I've ever heard speak about Cherie's website.....surely by now workers as well as friends should realize that Cherie hasn't tried to stuff the history and other facts she's found down any ONE PERSON"S THROAT....I believe she has been as full of grief when someone else has read the facts and are grieving for what they thought they'd had all along and it all turns out to be a fallacy....and recently is becoming a dangerous one. I Feel that Nathan is fighting that battle of knowing what is factual but yet struggling to hang onto the 2x2 religion....he's just being more open about it that is....kind of like Lazarus mentioned in his great disappointment and grief! It isn't easy to turn loose of something that you'v eput your heart and soul into.....we all must pray that the "truth" wins out and no, I'm not calling the 2x2 fellowship "truth". I do think he is just saying what he's heard for ever. What else is there really. Cherie's site is a lifesaver really. When I first found out about the group online, I read and read usually amazed at all I was learning about my parents religion. And, I wondered if they had ever known any of it. I just feel we all would be better off if we didn't let the groups we belonged to divide us. I don't see anything wrong with individual groups and being with like minded people. That's a natural urge. What I hate to see is beliefs that say other groups are wrong and not as good. That just makes for hard feelings and divides.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 22:07:22 GMT -5
I've read WP's apologies before and had this same impression...he is really apologizing "publically" to his "brethren" which are the other overseers. The apology was worded to look like it meant anyone, but it really came down to WP appearing to have MORE power in the 2x2 workership/fellowship then all the other overseers. So they got a little bit peeved about such a put-down and made the rancor over him not consulting with them first...or making it a multi-overseer decision. Exactly. It doesn't take a revelation from God to see the difference between the Nov 9 letter and the one less than two weeks later? A change of heart toward repentance and feeling sorry? For anyone who thinks that, I have a bridge to sell! I think Willis was genuinely sorry..... ...that his actions were discovered. The November 9, 1996 letter shows that Willis didn't expect the document to "get into the hands of the dissenters".
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 1, 2014 22:08:42 GMT -5
When you warn someone about something such as this, what you are telling them is that "YOU CAN'T HANDLE IT". So naturally, most people are going to go and check it out to see what all the fuss is about.
Again, it isn't what is on the websites that is the issue. If it is the truth, then the issue is why it wasn't already known by those who are members of the fellowship.
Much like the Vietnam issue. Now, people that hear about it, then try to find information about it, will then perhaps hear and read about other similar issues that have happened in the past in much the same manner. So the truth is what they will find, and it will point to a failure among those who are supposed to be the very ones looking out for the welfare of the church.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 22:09:38 GMT -5
For 20 yrs, I had known many friends who left the 2x2 fellowship, after they read the TTT website. Some of them became the 2x2s worse enemies, trying to encourage other in the fellowship to follow in their footsteps. I say TTT website is NOT a lifesaver site but a killer site to MANY of 2x2s friends and workers. Now, you know why I had warned Chau about TTT website in 2007. Its only a killer site to those who have been lied to. A simple solution would be for overseers and their staff to stop telling lies.
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 22:36:13 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 22:36:13 GMT -5
How can anyone be a member of something they know nothing about or never joined? I don't see a member list, nor do I see that everyone who attends meeting is compelled to be a member of the incorporated Society. The only thing that can be certain is that every member of the Society attends meetings and conventions, not vice versa. Furthermore, members were to receive notice of meetings. Since no one (that I know of) received such notices, I would say that the incorporated Society had no known members. Members would have to be added via a membership role. It was deceitful to have a membership with few if any members. Would Willis have told the Hungarian authorities that there were few if any members, and that the vast majority of the church knew nothing about the society? It was pure deception and Willis had no right to do it. It was deceitful that some of Willis's staff denied its existence: Membership was nominally quite open, but if no one knew about it how could they apply for membership?
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