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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 19:13:30 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 31, 2014 19:13:30 GMT -5
Vietnam is a great lesson for the overseers, but will they see it? Instead of learning from the success of native Vietnamese workers and rolling it out to other parts of the world, they chose to impose their system and their rule. When that doesn't work, they'll blame the native workers. Ác giả, ác báoMany thanks Fixit, I was completly forget this idiom from my Vietnamese. How wonderful Ác giả, ác báo it was raised very correct in our situation in VN from a foreigner. That the reason why our people very afraid to do wrong.
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 31, 2014 19:34:57 GMT -5
I love that picture...Hoa is on the gospel bus and he's NOT getting off! May God bless that dear soul.
Uncle Châu had prayed for uncle Hoa "May God be with you". Our Mighty GOD not only be with uncle Hoa, but also take care and blessing him. It aslo our prayer for have uncle Hoa first step into my house in the beginning of Lunar year.
My parents come to my house every day. My father likes reading daily E.news and the posts on TMB also.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 20:50:07 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 20:50:07 GMT -5
Chau has written to me that, Hoa had problems with Darrel when they were together as companions in 2009. Minhthanh wrote some where on here, when Hoa left the work.... chau said, "May God be with you" He didn't join up with Hoa. Chau is holding out because he believes this way if of God, and God will sort things out in His own time. Chau wants Lyle S. to TRUST him, he is not going to turn against them. Chau is for them NOT against them. Chau wants to help the current friends, and the golden friends in VN but it seems Dale thinks they could do without Chau's help right now. Chau accepts their decision and just labor until his time is over on this earth. This imformation made me cry and feel deep grief with the enduring strength of my dear uncle Hoa for the flock and for the unity of F&W in VN. It was clear for an answer to the very secret question among us... The reason why uncle Hoa had sent to Cambodia on 2009... then early 2010 uncle Châu was kicked out. Now it also clear to me the reason why uncle Hoa want to get rid of "Cái tròng", a few months later, after a careful and deep thinking. Uncle Hoa had to sacrifice his place being as a worker for ringing the bell for the safe of the flock. This information made us more appreciation and respect my uncle Hoa for His endure because of our souls. So Uncle Hoa obeyed Darrel for a time, and went to Cambodia where he didn't know the language. Darrel wanted to either dominate or banish the native workers so that he could be in control. Was Darrel accountable to anybody? The whole church was involved in decisions in apostolic times.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 31, 2014 21:52:05 GMT -5
After 1975, the VN F&W church continued to grow and abound and it was working very well right up until the Canadians came in and decided to reorganize it - to fix it.
We have a saying: If it aint broke—don’t fix it.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 21:53:48 GMT -5
Post by Mary on Jan 31, 2014 21:53:48 GMT -5
I agree come out from among them is just what many of us have done - we have left the workers and their church.
Irvine and those early workers also quit the bus. She forgot to add that some have quit the 2x2 bus and have gone back to ride the protestant bus.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 31, 2014 21:55:32 GMT -5
And some left the 2x2 bus and got on the Jesus Super bus, driven by Jesus Himself, and that is one happy busload of folks--where we dont have to worry about man-made rules and submission to man!
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Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 21:56:03 GMT -5
After 1975, the VN F&W church continued to grow and abound and it was working very well right up until the Canadians came in and decided to reorganize it - to fix it. We have a saying: If it aint broke—don’t fix it.System-minded people say that about their system, which has been broken for decades.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 23:19:30 GMT -5
Post by emy on Jan 31, 2014 23:19:30 GMT -5
I think Hoa indicated quite plainly that TTT was involved in his leaving the work.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 23:38:00 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 23:38:00 GMT -5
I think Hoa indicated quite plainly that TTT was involved in his leaving the work. Thanks, Emy... I believe Hoa had been reading the TTT website for quite awhile. He had given a lot of thoughts... It takes awhile to digest a lot of the information on TTT website and come to certain conclusion. 15 yrs ago, it took me a few weeks and months to digest, taken the time to think about all of the information on Cherie's site. Where was she going with this? What is her purpose? After 20 yrs we can see the results of her website doing to the 2x2 group... Many have LEFT because of it.Yes, TTT played a part in Hoa shaking off Darrel's chains. We have no indication that it had anything to do with learning of the beginnings with William Irvine. Why do you blame TTT for people leaving Nathan? People leaving had more to do with the church getting away from its Christ-focussed beginnings.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 23:45:43 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 23:45:43 GMT -5
I believe Darrel was accountable to Dale S. the Canadian overseer in Calf. I read this thread in the beginning that mentioned somewhere, that Chau was to leave the work so he could sell his brother's house in Saigon... Once that was done Darrel supposedly to take him back in the work... But Darrel never did take Chau back in the work.... This is my opinion when Darrel's overseer Dale S. from Calf. found out what had taken place in VN, he removed Darrel and put his brother Dale in charge as the new overseer, hoping he'd fix the damaged done by Darrel. Dale S. reinstated Chau back in the work in 2012. Dale Shultz shouldn't have interfered in Vietnam. Let's get our names right Nate... I believe Darrel was accountable to Dale S. the Canadian overseer in Calf. I read this thread in the beginning that mentioned somewhere, that Chau was to leave the work so he could sell his brother's house in Saigon... Once that was done Darrel supposedly to take him back in the work... But Darrel never did take Chau back in the work.... This is my opinion when Darrel's overseer Dale S. from Calf. found out what had taken place in VN, he removed Darrel and put his brother Dale Lyle in charge as the new overseer, hoping he'd fix the damaged done by Darrel. Dale Lyle S. reinstated Chau back in the work in 2012.
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Vietnam
Jan 31, 2014 23:49:53 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 31, 2014 23:49:53 GMT -5
I agree come out from among them is just what many of us have done - we have left the workers and their church. Irvine and those early workers also quit the bus. She forgot to add that some have quit the 2x2 bus and have gone back to ride the protestant bus. John Long, William Irvine, Edward Cooney didn't quit; they were excommunicated. Many of the early workers such as Jack, Bill, May, Fanny Carroll, George Walker, Willie Gill, Robert Darling, and many others have continued on to the end. There will always be people getting on the 2x2 bus... some get on and stay on until the final destination, some got on and left in the middle of the way and get on other buses or go back to their old buses, and some will quit all together, some don't want to ride the bus period.Some get thrown off of the bus, with no regard to how hurt they get or the collateral damage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2014 23:51:42 GMT -5
John Long, William Irvine, Edward Cooney didn't quit; they were excommunicated. Many of the early workers such as Jack, Bill, May, Fanny Carroll, George Walker, Willie Gill, Robert Darling, and many others have continued on to the end. There will always be people getting on the 2x2 bus... some get on and stay on until the final destination, some got on and left in the middle of the way and get on other buses or go back to their old buses, and some will quit all together, some don't want to ride the bus period. Some get thrown off of the bus, with no regard to how hurt they get or the collateral damage. And some get thrown under the bus, sadly.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 0:25:54 GMT -5
Fixit wrote: Dale Shultz shouldn't have interfered in Vietnam. ~~~ My understanding..... if you knew the background.
Dale S. was Darrel senior worker/overseer back SK, Canada... Dale has a lot of power with the Canadian workers in VN and his brother Lyle, Nothing is done without his brother Dale's approval. I believe Dale S. has been involved/in charge of the work in VN for many years from the states side before the foreigners went to VN in 1990s.I agree with you Nathan, regarding the reasons for Dale S involvement. However Darrel T has never been directly under Dale S in Canada. Darrel is an Albertan and as far as I know never worked in Saskatchewan. It is Dales leading position now in the 2x2 high council in western North America and his tight control of the groups major finances, that has given him the muscle over Vietnam within the 2x2 organization. Dale S inherited most of this ecconomic power base from Willis P, who was Albertas top 2x2 political figure for many years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 0:52:08 GMT -5
Just a little point of interest -- Dale S is an American citizen and overseer in California. Although he grew up on a farm out of Osage, Saskatchewan, Canada, one of his parents was American -- and tho I am not completely sure of it, it could even be that he was born in the US.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 1:30:15 GMT -5
After Eldon T. passed away in Calf. they felt it was better for an outsider to be the overseer. I was very surprised when I saw Dale S. became the overseer in Calf..... An Canadian overseer in USA soil? Wow... So there must be something going/power struggles in Calf. that we don't know about. Eldon T's extremely extremist, hardnecked and ungodly stand on the divorce and remarriage issue left some pretty deep scars in 2x2ism in the US -- To buy support in his shaky situation he became a staunch supporter of Willis P mass excommunication program in Alberta. This unholy alliance resulted eventually in the 'California solution' of Dale S. (Willis had far more 2x2 political power (because of the financial muscle) than he has been given credit for -- even long after the Alberta excommunications. Dale S was/is Willis P's continuation of power.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 3:25:43 GMT -5
Nathan, Whom you may agree with or not -- or who I may agree with or not is hardly a significant issue -- It is only God himself who is the judge -- Our responsibility as fellow sinners, is simply to show the spirit of love, mercy, kindness, understanding and compassion to all our fellow men --
2x2ism is an enormous failure in this, on every organizational level. The situation in Vietnam is just one, in a very long row of similar moral failures around the world-- Failures clearly instigated and supported from the very top of the ugly 2x2 organization. Our responsibility isn't to fix 2x2ism -- or fix any other counter-Christian organizational structure -- Our responsibility is to find a way to exercise the Christian spirit God has given us, inspite of the ungodly organizational constructions around us. Ungodly organizational constructions are hardly a new invention!! 2x2ism is just one of many, many deceptive ideas.
Hoa and the other 'golden' folks we have heard of in Vietnam, are a wonderful example of this simple faith. They are proving, what many of us other folks have also proven, the most wonderful beauty in the Christian spirit when it is allowed to move freely in the hearts and lives of people. People who have the faith to trust in it above all else, and at whatever cost to themselves.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 3:36:51 GMT -5
Fixit wrote: Dale Shultz shouldn't have interfered in Vietnam. ~~~ In my opinion and understanding..... if you knew the background.
Dale S. was Darrel senior worker/overseer back SK, Canada... Dale has a lot of power with the Canadian workers in VN and his brother Lyle, Nothing is done without his brother Dale's approval. I believe Dale S. has been involved/in charge of the work in VN for many years before the foreigners came to VN in 1990s.Then he's been interfering for a long time. Dales Shultz wrote: Did he get the sanction of the native Vietnamese workers before he got involved in Vietnam?
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 3:54:30 GMT -5
The Canadians like to stick, help, and working together... B.C. Alberta, Sk Canadians have been working together in VN for years. They were very helpful in VN, then Darrel T. made a big mess out of it when he tried to have a complete control of the work in VN, by eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work.... Sending the Americans, Chinese, Koreans worker who disagree with him out of VN. So, Darrel's Canadian staff has VN all to themselves. I believe it was Dale S. that removed Darrel T. from VN and calling his brother Lyle S. to help him out, and fixing the damages. Lyle S. has little understanding of the Vietnamese people, thinking, culture, so it will take him awhile to figure it out how to fix Darrel's Mess. Apologise for the mess, then ask the native Vietnamese workers and friends how it can be fixed.
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Post by Mary on Feb 1, 2014 4:01:30 GMT -5
And some left the 2x2 bus and got on the Jesus Super bus, driven by Jesus Himself, and that is one happy busload of folks--where we dont have to worry about man-made rules and submission to man!
Yea, right... the Super bus of 38,000 plus Protestants denomination... What a Zoo! and BIGGER mess still running by man-made rules and submission to man. Why would anyone wants to tell people to go back to ride the Biggest zoo, chaos bus?38,000 plus Protestant denomination churches: 2x2friendsworkers.proboards.com/thread/76/38-000-christians-protestant-denominationsThe 2x2s are one of the 38,000 Protestant denominations you mentioned. Thank you Nathan, you have written a good summary of the workers and their church. They are every bit a zoo and a BIG mess run by man-made rules and submission to man. Glad to get off the 2x2 bus and into a real relationship with God in a real God fearing, not worker fearing church. Just read this board and this thread and you will see what I am talking about.
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Post by fixit on Feb 1, 2014 5:42:55 GMT -5
Apologise for the mess, then ask the native Vietnamese workers and friends how it can be fixed. I agree with you 120%. They/Darrel should write a a general letter of apology to Chau, Hoa, the golden friends who left, and the current friends and workers in VN for pains, sufferings, heartaches, stress emotionally and spiritually that one of their Canadians worker have caused the mess. It will set many people free...I'm not sure that Darrel should take all of the blame. He was appointed by the top-down overseer domination system. The hierarchical structure is of man and not of God, and it should be dismantled.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 6:37:23 GMT -5
I agree with you 120%. They/Darrel should write a a general letter of apology to Chau, Hoa, the golden friends who left, and the current friends and workers in VN for pains, sufferings, heartaches, stress emotionally and spiritually that one of their Canadians worker have caused the mess. It will set many people free... Nathan -- Both you and I know a fair bit about how 2x2ism works -- How great do you think the chances are of an apology ever being made? As far as I know, it has never happened in 2x2ism, when top leadership is involved -- as they obviously have been in this case. The 'work' as an institution NEVER EVER admits doing wrong --- "Because they have prayed about it, and God doesn't make mistakes!!!" This is just how 2x2ism is. I agree that Darrel is only one of the players involved -- and he isn't a major player in 2x2ism. With Dale Shultz being involved (and as Darrels superior, and with his letters of support, in my mind he just as guilty as Darrel) the group will find it quite impossible to ever apoligize -- or even imply that wrong has been committed. The blame, as always, will be firmly placed on everyone who has expressed concern - like Hoa and Baus family -- and then onto the Internet for spreading the truth and exposing the enormous scope of ungodliness. There is absolutely no capacity for repentance in 2x2isms top layers -- This in itself pretty much disqualifies the group from carrying the Christian label. As Clearday suggested, 2x2ism is still at this moment likely bragging about how right their decisions have been, and how concerned they are about the 2x2 'standard' being upheld in Vietnam!!
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Post by minhthanh on Feb 1, 2014 7:11:16 GMT -5
I agree with you Nathan, regarding the reasons for Dale S involvement. However Darrel T has never been directly under Dale S in Canada. Darrel is an Albertan and as far as I know never worked in Saskatchewan. It is Dales leading position now in the 2x2 high council in western North America and his tight control of the groups major finances, that has given him the muscle over Vietnam within the 2x2 organization. Dale S inherited most of this ecconomic power base from Willis P, who was Albertas top 2x2 political figure for many years. The Canadians like to stick, help, and working together... B.C. Alberta, Sk Canadians have been working together in VN for years. They were very helpful in VN, then Darrel T. made a big mess out of it when he tried to have a complete control of the work in VN, by eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work.... Sending the Americans, Chinese, Koreans worker who disagree with him out of VN. So, Darrel's Canadian staff has VN all to themselves. I believe it was Dale S. that removed Darrel T. from VN and calling his brother Lyle S. to help him out, and fixing the damages. Lyle S. has little understanding of the Vietnamese people, thinking, culture, so it will take him awhile to figure it out how to fix Darrel's Mess.Lyle S made the mess became bigger, more broken between families. I wonder how long for him to fixe the mess. It is nearly 4 years !!! I have many things to prove that the mess never be fixed... May I bet with you Nathan. I don't want to post here how hard for uncle Châu now, just only not bring uncle Châu face with hard condition. He is old. I also know that many of his relatives reading here. (His brother Hiền is being the member on this board). They all very sad and angry, when uncle Châu niece (Duyên Thơ) informed to her father all the sad news relating to uncle Châu. Uncle Châu have asked me not saying any more about his situation. Many things Nathan had post, showing that he didn't know the real image in VN. Of course uncle Châu always wants to show the good image, and hiding their bad behaviors because of his love to them. Even he doesn't want to hear the true things Lyle S had made during the time he left VN. I just wait and see... Do hope that he will get rid of the chain upon him before too late.
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Post by xuanhoan on Feb 1, 2014 9:24:56 GMT -5
I agree with you Nathan, regarding the reasons for Dale S involvement. However Darrel T has never been directly under Dale S in Canada. Darrel is an Albertan and as far as I know never worked in Saskatchewan. It is Dales leading position now in the 2x2 high council in western North America and his tight control of the groups major finances, that has given him the muscle over Vietnam within the 2x2 organization. Dale S inherited most of this ecconomic power base from Willis P, who was Albertas top 2x2 political figure for many years. The Canadians like to stick, help, and working together... B.C. Alberta, Sk Canadians have been working together in VN for years. They were very helpful in VN, then Darrel T. made a big mess out of it when he tried to have a complete control of the work in VN, by eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work.... Sending the Americans, Chinese, Koreans worker who disagree with him out of VN. So, Darrel's Canadian staff has VN all to themselves. I believe it was Dale S. that removed Darrel T. from VN and calling his brother Lyle S. to help him out, and fixing the damages. Lyle S. has little understanding of the Vietnamese people, thinking, culture, so it will take him awhile to figure it out how to fix Darrel's Mess.If we only read Lyle's letter, we would be deceived because Lyle used kind, gentle words in the letter in order to read for friends to pretend that he was very merciful overseer. All the mess in Vietnam people blamed it on Darrel. In fact, Dale Shutlz was standing behind. After Dale and Darrel kicked Châu out, the friends showed opposition, Dale pretended to send Jim Girton, overseer of Phillipines, representative of Korean overseer, Parkistan overseer. They came and left without any correction. Friends were disappointed. Then Dale sent his brother, Lyle Shutlz to replace Darrel. Everyone filled with hope at first. But in fact he caused the mess many times bigger than Darrel. The division was more serious. So saying that Lyle Shutlz came to resolve the mess is only an illusion. I think uncle Châu was tricked by Lyle into submitting him completely. I didn't see any honesty in these people. One time my wife asked Lyle: " Do you come here to defend for your countryman Darrel or you defend for the Kingdom of God ?" We experienced them so I can draw a conclusion :"Don't believe their words until you see their action, their spirit"
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Post by CherieKropp on Feb 1, 2014 11:25:54 GMT -5
Typically in the past where there have been troublesome matters, the workers excommunicate or shun out the "troublemakers" and pacify everyone the best they can, shush up the matter, hide and cover it up, try to destroy the evidence, and go on down the road. They wait for the matter "to die out." And they continue to administrate (control) the F&Ws in their own way...at the same time they continue to preach about the marvelous unity in the church (dictatorship).
The big difference now is the internet. There are some fairly permanent 2x2 archives on the internet which prevents these conflicts from dying out; i.e. Australia Division, Rittenhouse-Sweetland, Alaska, Oyler-Starkweather, Cooney, John Long, etc. The AB, VN, Australia and other similar accounts are stored (more or less) permanently on websites--not just message boards, where the thread will eventually be pushed back into the archives; or books that may eventually go out of print.
With the firsthand accounts of how the workers have perpetuated spiritual abuse and policies that are not scriptural in Alberta, Vietnam, Australia, Rittenhouse, etc posted on the internet, the events won't be allowed to die out--the injustices are laid bare for all to read for years to come. Just like in the Bible, the good and the bad are both there. The hope is that these accounts will encourage change, and a return to being led by the Spirit of God, rather than men ruling. Prov 30:21-22 - For three things the earth is disquieted...For a servant when he reigneth...
The purpose of posting them on the internet is so others can be aware of the wrongs that have happened and there is a hope that in doing so changes might be made, wrongs righted, and lessons learned.
As information, I finished compiling the VN Account and yesterday I sent it to the Nguyen family for their edits. After they review and edit it to their total satisfaction, it will be posted on TTT and Edgar Massey's website.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 11:38:14 GMT -5
I agree with you 120%. They/Darrel should write a a general letter of apology to Chau, Hoa, the golden friends who left, and the current friends and workers in VN for pains, sufferings, heartaches, stress emotionally and spiritually that one of their Canadians worker have caused the mess. It will set many people free... I'm not sure that Darrel should take all of the blame. He was appointed by the top-down overseer domination system.
The hierarchical structure is of man and not of God, and it should be dismantled.Fixit, you reminded me of this verse! Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 11:47:10 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Feb 1, 2014 11:47:10 GMT -5
The Canadians like to stick, help, and working together... B.C. Alberta, Sk Canadians have been working together in VN for years. They were very helpful in VN, then Darrel T. made a big mess out of it when he tried to have a complete control of the work in VN, by eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work.... Sending the Americans, Chinese, Koreans worker who disagree with him out of VN. So, Darrel's Canadian staff has VN all to themselves. I believe it was Dale S. that removed Darrel T. from VN and calling his brother Lyle S. to help him out, and fixing the damages. Lyle S. has little understanding of the Vietnamese people, thinking, culture, so it will take him awhile to figure it out how to fix Darrel's Mess. Lyle S made the mess became bigger, more broken between families. I wonder how long for him to fixe the mess. It is nearly 4 years !!! I have many things to prove that the mess never be fixed... May I bet with you Nathan. I don't want to post here how hard for uncle Châu now, just only not bring uncle Châu face with hard condition. He is old. I also know that many of his relatives reading here. (His brother Hiền is being the member on this board). They all very sad and angry, when uncle Châu niece (Duyên Thơ) informed to her father all the sad news relating to uncle Châu. Uncle Châu have asked me not saying any more about his situation. Many things Nathan had post, showing that he didn't know the real image in VN. Of course uncle Châu always wants to show the good image, and hiding their bad behaviors because of his love to them. Even he doesn't want to hear the true things Lyle S had made during the time he left VN. I just wait and see... Do hope that he will get rid of the chain upon him before too late. Minhthanh...as you may have read Lazarus' accounting of al the bitter disappointment he had when at 50 yrs. old in regards to the actual truth that the 2x2's were a fairly new sect of religion and were not from the shores of Galilee. Those who have put their heart and soul into the 2x2's, particularly those who were and are workers will find it almost impossible to discount the religion as to what it really is...that there was NO continuation of the Acts of the Apostles. It is a setdown of pride that one has when one has believed and poured their life's blood into to come to the knowledge that one has literally been serving a fallacy! Some workers can not do that...so they continue at the will of their overseers......and IF any of those workers let their overseer know of the knowledge they have about the 2x2's founders, etc then that overseer may be extra hard upon that knowledgeable worker under him. So prayers need be offered for those who find them unable to accept the real truth and leave it due to all they've spent for it in matters of years and heart and soul......may God give them strength and grace to be strong in God, not man!
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Vietnam
Feb 1, 2014 12:39:23 GMT -5
Post by snow on Feb 1, 2014 12:39:23 GMT -5
I think Hoa indicated quite plainly that TTT was involved in his leaving the work. Thanks, Emy... I believe Hoa had been reading the TTT website for quite awhile. He had given a lot of thoughts... It takes awhile to digest a lot of the information on TTT website and come to certain conclusion. 15 yrs ago, it took me a few weeks and months to digest, taken the time to think about all of the information on Cherie's site. Where was she going with this? What is her purpose? After 20 yrs we can see the results of her website doing to the 2x2 group... Many have LEFT because of it. She wants many friends and workers to leave the 2x2 bus and ride on the 38,000 Super zoo bus!What's wrong with leaving the 2x2 bus? What's wrong with leaving the God bus altogether? Religions are so exclusive and dividing. I think more people should get on the human race bus and forget about all the stuff that divides. You're all fighting over whose God is right, then you all fight about which denomination is right, and then whose interpretation within that denomination is right and on and on. Can't anyone see how divisive all this is.
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Feb 1, 2014 12:52:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2014 12:52:06 GMT -5
Nathan -- Both you and I know a fair bit about how 2x2ism works -- How great do you think the chances are of an apology ever being made? As far as I know, it has never happened in 2x2ism, when top leadership is involved -- as they obviously have been in this case. The 'work' as an institution NEVER EVER admits doing wrong --- "Because they have prayed about it, and God doesn't make mistakes!!!" This is just how 2x2ism is. I agree that Darrel is only one of the players involved -- and he isn't a major player in 2x2ism. With Dale Shultz being involved (and as Darrels superior, and with his letters of support, in my mind he just as guilty as Darrel) the group will find it quite impossible to ever apoligize -- or even imply that wrong has been committed. The blame, as always, will be firmly placed on everyone who has expressed concern - like Hoa and Baus family -- and then onto the Internet for spreading the truth and exposing the enormous scope of ungodliness. There is absolutely no capacity for repentance in 2x2isms top layers -- This in itself pretty much disqualifies the group from carrying the Christian label. As Clearday suggested, 2x2ism is still at this moment likely bragging about how right their decisions have been, and how concerned they are about the 2x2 'standard' being upheld in Vietnam!! Here are the proof for you Edgar..... Willis Propp did apologize for his mistakes on Alberta Incorp. Never says NEVER.~~~~ Alberta Incorporation Document: November 9, 1996 Edmonton, Canada (1 of 2 letters)To All of concern: One of the workers in XXXXXXX (certain country visa was) soon to expire, was faced with the problem of being refused permission to remain in the country because the "Group" she was representing was "NOT" a registered body in XXXXXXX. Our sister who labors there, was the companion to the girl in question, and she appealed urgently to us that we do something about it, because any approach they made to the local authorities was to "no avail" and they needed help badly. Above that there was a deadline to meet. This certain country XXXXXXX would accept our registration as backing. We in Canada, had been registering in Ottawa (Canada's capital City) during WW II. A search was made there to retrieve such a document, but all in vain. While registration is not required in Great Britain, USA or Canada, to help our workers in this certain country, we sought a lawyer's aid, and as a result, a very complicated document was made up. We learned, to our dismay, that to be registered we had to become "Incorporated" as a non-profitable Society. While it was solely for the "Purpose" of those in Authority, the document gave us a long handled name. We were hesitant to do it, but for the sake of our workers we signed the document. This XXXXXXX (certain country) accepted our efforts, for which we are thankful, and officials there will now "Continue" to recognize the workers in their country. However, the problem has arisen, Canada recently passed a Freedom of Information Bill. Through this, our document is on the Internet, and it has now gotten into the hands of the "Dissenters." I am sure our friends, will understand the reason why we implement it. In many countries, registration is necessary. We are in the process "NOW" of having the whole (Alberta) document canceled, since it is "NOT" required in Canada, and we hope the matter will settle down in time. Thank you for giving this information to any of our friends or workers who may inquire. I am so sorry that such a problem should have arisen because of my naivety.Yours as always, (signature of) Willis Propp November 18, 1996 ( 2 of 2 letters)To whom it may concern: The concept of the Document of Registration that was drawn up and filed in Alberta, Canada on 5th of May, 1995 was "Totally" contrary to the basic tenets of our fellowship, and so was "Totally" wrong. I, Willis Propp, acted unilaterally without due consultation with my Seniors in the ministry, which made my action "Totally" wrong. Hence to have placed my signature of acceptance upon such a Document was also "Totally" out of order and wrong. In view of all this, I hear by take the following steps in recourse: 1. I assume full responsibility for involving in this process my fellow workers in Alberta, Canada whose signatures also appeared on the said Document. 2. I sorely grieve over and regret the distress and unrest that has been brought to bear upon so many of our beloved brethren. 3. I have instructed a lawyer on November 8, 1996, to have said Document completely revoked. Attached is a copy of this dissolution.4. From a saddened and deeply penitent heart, I humbly offer a full apology to all concerned for all these actions on my part that are so out of line and wrong. Signed by, Willis Propp ~~ I have been exchanging PM with a worker, who had been companion with Lyle S. in India. He speaks very highly of Lyle S. in handling different difficult situation when he was companion with him in India. He is reading and following this VN topic with great concern.
If Dale S. is NOT improving the situation in VN and NOT fixing the MESS but making it worse than before. He too should be removed and They MUST sent in a specialist/trouble shooter worker, who can FIX it and make thing right over there. Is that really an apology Nathan? Think about this: Willis set up the incorporation, believing it was a good and right thing to do. Some friends found out about it and felt that it was violating some 2x2 principle and complained about it. When the information got to the other overseers, they ordered him to send out an apology letter. The non-apology letter of Nov 9th was the result. The friends read it and realized it was not an apology letter and demanded an apology. What they then got was the Nov 18th letter. Is that a real apology? Or is that a political appeasement letter? I think it is the latter. In fact, I agree with Willis....he did nothing wrong by incorporating and no apology was necessary.....except when it became politically necessary. One of the Canadian workers who is in VN stated at around that time "this ministry will never apologize!" I think he was right.
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