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Vietnam
Jan 19, 2014 15:09:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 15:09:23 GMT -5
BTW, Edgar, Cherie...what do you think about trying to link Uncle Chau with Graham in the Down Under! I feel perhaps they could encourage one another as they face unknown future! What we all know is that Chau is in an extremely delicate situation at the moment, and it is important that he is convinced that his guidance comes from within/above. From the beautiful things that both his brother and Minh Thanh have shared with us regarding his spirit, it would seem to me that we can hardly doubt that this is true for him. Like Cherie suggested, the folks that know him best (like Minh Thanhs and family or Vu Trung Hien) are well aware of the support so many would like to give -- if the opportunity should turn up where these folks might feel that anything could be helpful. To me it is wonderful that they are so faithful and loving in monitoring the situation as they do.
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Jan 19, 2014 15:42:47 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 19, 2014 15:42:47 GMT -5
MinhThanh What is the language situation for him in Cambodia? -- From what I can understand Vietnameze isn't a major language in Cambodia. What language does Chau use there? Uncle Châu is too old to learn a new language (Khmer). He used to preach in English in Cambodia for a very few English people there. In the past being there he taught English for the children only. My friend had visited him in Cambodia, she said Uncle Châu like a babysister than a worker. I was broken my heart to know this news, because his eyes become worse and worse, and he become old too. I just phoned and talk a lot with him. Explain to him many things. But he just asked me pray, wait for God's work. What a pity to him. We can see very clearly there is no unity among Lyle and his staff with uncle Châu. They'll get consequence for this decision. This is very sad MT. Thank you for supporting a faithful servant of God who has been exiled from the people he loves and gave his life to serve. The overseer elite have a lot to answer for.
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 4:30:05 GMT -5
I have read from beginning to the end of The Bible nearly ten times through my life, when I was a little girl with my parents family, then with my husband & children, now just two of us. But I haven’t understood much, about The Way of God, His will, His demand and His big love to everybody in this world. Until many things happened causing us step out of The 2x2 ism. I received the message straight from above very clear in every situation. Feeling the love of God, His care upon us too. We are learning in Revelation, of course we don’t understand much, but I can see our situation in this part of Revelation 12 May God help us to keep God’s commands and hold fast our testimony about Jesus.
Revelation 12 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. 12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” 13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.
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Jan 20, 2014 7:52:04 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 7:52:04 GMT -5
BTW, Edgar, Cherie...what do you think about trying to link Uncle Chau with Graham in the Down Under! I feel perhaps they could encourage one another as they face unknown future! Uncle Chau admonished me many times. "Please, don't waste your time on internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul !" My reply was " On internet not only findout many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding." Although he was afraid to contact us by email, we still keep in touch with him very often, sending him many news on internet relating to VN situation. Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Uncle Chau had visited New Zealand, returning he had tell us that New Zealand is the paradise of the work of God. Reading about Graham Thompson I had sent him the links. I wanted him seeing the cry in New Zealand Paradise. I don’t know whether he gave any glance on it, because he is very busy these days. As I had informed the new news… Uncle Châu had arranged to go to Cambodia on February 2014. It reminds me uncle Dale’s letter and his arrangement for uncle Chau going to USA. It seems God has not pleased with his propose, so He prevented. I do believe that God always do the best for us. Once again If it not His will, He’ll prevent. In Viet Nam we have an idiom "Mưu sự tại nhân, thành sự tại thiên": Man proposes, God disposes
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Jan 20, 2014 9:33:10 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2014 9:33:10 GMT -5
MT: Looking forward to hearing how you obtained a copy of this letter!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 20, 2014 10:35:24 GMT -5
BTW, Edgar, Cherie...what do you think about trying to link Uncle Chau with Graham in the Down Under! I feel perhaps they could encourage one another as they face unknown future! Uncle Chau admonished me many times. "Please, don't waste your time on internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul !" My reply was " On internet not only findout many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding." Although he was afraid to contact us by email, we still keep in touch with him very often, sending him many news on internet relating to VN situation. Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Uncle Chau had visited New Zealand, returning he had tell us that New Zealand is the paradise of the work of God. Reading about Graham Thompson I had sent him the links. I wanted him seeing the cry in New Zealand Paradise. I don’t know whether he gave any glance on it, because he is very busy these days. As I had informed the new news… Uncle Châu had arranged to go to Cambodia on February 2914. It reminds me uncle Dale’s letter and his arrangement for uncle Chau going to USA. It seems God has not pleased with his propose, so He prevented. I do believe that God always do the best for us. Once again If it not His will, He’ll prevent. In Viet Nam we have an idiom "Mưu sự tại nhân, thành sự tại thiên": Man proposes, God disposes
New Zealand isn't really the work of God for there are large piles under the proverbial carpet even there! Uncle Chau had a revered guest's view as it was planned that he have! Bless his heart, IF he ever receives the knowledge within himself that the 2x2 religion is just as manmade as the Protestant churches he removed himself from...fact is they are "younger" in being then those very Protestant churches...the 2x2 religion being just a few years older then 100 yrs. old And furthermore, the man who begin the whole mess stated he did not think that the churches or the essence of the 2x2 religion would last very long...so it seems it is gradually unraveling by the hand of God....showing all of the things that are even against the laws of individual countries....this is something that makes me sick when I think about it....true man can make mistakes but if they continue to make the same mistake, apparently he hasn't learned from the mistake the first time...this is what we're see in regards to the CSA issues...to the point that the California atthuroties warne Dale Shultz that if they found another case of a perpator of CSA having been hidden for many years that Dale himself would be arrested...Lo and behold, in Michigan, those authorities didn't even warn them, they immediately went after Jerome and Bill....to their utter amazement it seemed, they both had to pay a monetary fine, court costs, spend 4 days with the prisoners in local jails plus do community services...giving those workers a taste of what can happen when people disobey the laws of their land! So our prayers are that Uncle Chau can have strength from God within him as he slowly finds out the whole truth about the 2x2 religion! And we hope he can just cling to God in that experience....for only Jesus can save us.....may we all come out of these ordeals with increased faith and love for our God and Saviour!
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Vietnam
Jan 20, 2014 11:06:30 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 11:06:30 GMT -5
Uncle Chau admonished me many times. "Please, don't waste your time on internet, reading many things there you may lose your soul !" My reply was " On internet not only findout many things good for my decision, but also have had sweet fellowship throughout the world, with love and understanding." Although he was afraid to contact us by email, we still keep in touch with him very often, sending him many news on internet relating to VN situation. Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Uncle Chau had visited New Zealand, returning he had tell us that New Zealand is the paradise of the work of God. Reading about Graham Thompson I had sent him the links. I wanted him seeing the cry in New Zealand Paradise. I don’t know whether he gave any glance on it, because he is very busy these days. As I had informed the new news… Uncle Châu had arranged to go to Cambodia on February 2914. It reminds me uncle Dale’s letter and his arrangement for uncle Chau going to USA. It seems God has not pleased with his propose, so He prevented. I do believe that God always do the best for us. Once again If it not His will, He’ll prevent. In Viet Nam we have an idiom "Mưu sự tại nhân, thành sự tại thiên": Man proposes, God disposes
New Zealand isn't really the work of God for there are large piles under the proverbial carpet even there! Uncle Chau had a revered guest's view as it was planned that he have! Bless his heart, IF he ever receives the knowledge within himself that the 2x2 religion is just as manmade as the Protestant churches he removed himself from...fact is they are "younger" in being then those very Protestant churches...the 2x2 religion being just a few years older then 100 yrs. old And furthermore, the man who begin the whole mess stated he did not think that the churches or the essence of the 2x2 religion would last very long...so it seems it is gradually unraveling by the hand of God....showing all of the things that are even against the laws of individual countries....this is something that makes me sick when I think about it....true man can make mistakes but if they continue to make the same mistake, apparently he hasn't learned from the mistake the first time...this is what we're see in regards to the CSA issues...to the point that the California atthuroties warne Dale Shultz that if they found another case of a perpator of CSA having been hidden for many years that Dale himself would be arrested...Lo and behold, in Michigan, those authorities didn't even warn them, they immediately went after Jerome and Bill....to their utter amazement it seemed, they both had to pay a monetary fine, court costs, spend 4 days with the prisoners in local jails plus do community services...giving those workers a taste of what can happen when people disobey the laws of their land! So our prayers are that Uncle Chau can have strength from God within him as he slowly finds out the whole truth about the 2x2 religion! And we hope he can just cling to God in that experience....for only Jesus can save us.....may we all come out of these ordeals with increased faith and love for our God and Saviour! Many thanks, very clear information to me. I have just sent to uncle Chau this idea From: Minh Thanh [mailto:hoanthanhbn@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:03 PM To: 'ngocchau' Subject: Lời hay ý đẹp Don’t be afraid OF CHANGE You may lose SOMETHING GOOD But you may gain SOMETHING BETTER. I had shared with him that I have passed this experience in the beginning of my changing with Fear and Worry, but now we gain not only THE BETTER but gain the BEST... For we become closest to our God than ever. I will send your post to uncle Chau as well.
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Jan 20, 2014 12:06:03 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 12:06:03 GMT -5
MT: Looking forward to hearing how you obtained a copy of this letter! Sorry, I forgot my promise because many new news coming... Yes, I would like to tell you how I obtained a copy of uncle Lyle's letter. Maybe for uncle Lyle and his staff know as well. But I want to share my thought first. If we are sincere in acting or talking, we are never afraid of hiding anything we do or afraid of being recorded our speaking. About your asking… The worker just read this letter only, not sending to anyone. Even many friends have asked to have a copy. How we had it? The same as how we had uncle Fred letter to the overseer… God gave it to us , because HE displeased with the spirit had written in that letter. One friend borrowed the letter from a foreign sister at his field (she asked him not copy the letter). He was afraid that we didn’t know there is a letter writing about uncle Hoa. He brought it to my place for us to read. (We have this copy because we have a photocopy machine at home, immediately my husband copied the letter before reading Then the friend sent back the letter the day after… Many friends still in their fellowship but disagree with the letter!. So we had known the whole letter before hearing from the workers in our field. That was the reason why my father too angry with uncle Lyle, while he visited with Cường at my parents's house. One day Lyle S. came to my father’s house to read his letter. Two things that we did not agree with him in his letter were: To respect the Workers in the highest place. (It is our Lord’s place in our heart, not Workers). And Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part in the work of God in VN anymore. My father said to Lyle, “That’s what YOU say; God never says like that.” Seeing my father disagreed with his letter, Lyle said: “I can’t take care of you any more.” My father replied, “God will take care of us.” A few days later Collin and uncle Lyle came to my house… in order to talk with us, but I refuse to hear. I said “I had known the letter, no need to read”.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 13:21:49 GMT -5
NathanB -- I agree that the Internet with its enormous access to information from so many different sources is very very serious threat for forces anxious to keep the truth in darkness -- Until now 2x2ism has been completely dependent on only giving its membership access to 'censored' versions of a reality that is designed to preserve the fantasy of 'the perfect way'.
Probably one of most sickening aspects of 2x2ism is the inbred teaching that "reality can only be interpreted by workers -- and anyone who says otherwise or tries otherwise is a heretic and a child of the devil." -- What more proof is needed to define 2x2ism as a extremist cult? Denying people free access to information and to the truth, is the prime identifier of most despots.
Jesus words are probably more apt in this situation than many others "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men (2x2 leadership) loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Telling people to burn letters written to them by the wrong people-- warning people to avoid the greatest information bank in the world -- telling people not even to have fellowship with their own relatives or loved ones - How sick can a teaching become? How in love with darkness can a doctrine be?
Anyone with a brain in their head is capable of doing some form of credibility check on what we read or hear --- this is part of life for anyone, with everything we hear see feel or read. Some of us have learned that this credibility check fails the source far more often, when listening to workers than much of the subject material on the net.
In situations like this one in Vietnam, senior works are proven liars -- time and time again. It is a mark of wisdom to seek alternative sources of truth.
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Post by Mary on Jan 20, 2014 13:42:33 GMT -5
I wonder why you would say this place is not for the faint hearted or doubters, Nathan? I think it is just the place to get their questions and doubts answered. To know that they are not alone and that there are reasons for their doubts. A place for them to find out the truth. A place for them to find freedom from the lies they were told that this is God's true way and find God in truth whether inside or outside the fellowship. This is just the place for those seeking truth.
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Vietnam
Jan 20, 2014 13:47:40 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 20, 2014 13:47:40 GMT -5
Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Who is Jone…?
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Jan 20, 2014 14:46:24 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 14:46:24 GMT -5
Nathan .. I am not talking about individual workers .. I know there are big differences in how individuals deal with truth -- what I am refering to is the doctrinal policy of 2x2ism, especially at the top, to disregard truth in favor of upholding the fantacy they wish to propagate of 'the perfection of their organization'.
In their frantic efforts to propagate this fantasy (especially when it is in danger of falling apart as it is in Vietnam), they are very anxious to keep membership in darkness at all cost. -- This is the reason for the love of darkness that Jesus spoke about and hated.
As you say, I am also convinced that Gods will will be done in Vietnam, as it was long before 2x2ism came and will continue to be done regardless the twitches of a silly organizational construction such as 2x2ism. Gods plan and way is much much greater than a little man-made organization built on self-righteous hypocrisy.
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Jan 20, 2014 14:54:26 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 14:54:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think it has become commonly acceptable among workers that lying and deception is honourable in certain circumstances. While I suppose there could be some extreme circumstances where it could be acceptable (such as to save someone's life), the practice has become far too common among the workers such that it is in danger of becoming part of the fabric of the ministry.
There is no need to lie and deceive. The truth will always set people free no matter how much ugliness it reveals. Even children should never be deceived "for their own good" although a great deal of care must be applied when telling the truth to children so that they can understand it within their own frames of reference.
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Jan 20, 2014 15:53:37 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 20, 2014 15:53:37 GMT -5
NathanB -- I agree that the Internet with its enormous access to information from so many different sources is very serious threat for folks anxious to keep the truth in darkness -- Until now 2x2ism has been completely dependant on only giving its membership access to 'censored' versions of a reality that is designed to preserve the fanticy of 'the perfect way'. Probably one of most sickening aspects of 2x2ism is the inbred teaching that "reality can only be interpreted by workers -- and anyone who says otherwise or tries otherwise is a heritic and a child of the devil." -- What more proof is needed to define 2x2ism as a extremist cult? Jesus words are probably more apt in this situation than many others "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men (2x2 leadership) loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [20] For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. [21] But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. ~~ There are Feeders workers/overseers Vs. Some are Rulers workers/overseers in our fellowship. Vietnam is a good example of both of these kinds workers. I disagree how the Canadian Rulers workers made a mess by Darrel, and Dale is too slow in fixing, amending the previous blundering mistakes. Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant preachers instituted by God the Father, and His Son Jesus fulfilled His Father's will, and commanded His apostles and disciples to carry until His 2nd coming (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:16-20; Acts 1:8).
God has placed both Feeders, the Rulers, and the church elders in the fellowship to help and guide the churches (I Cor. 12:28) it's unfortunate some of these Rulers have abused their God's given place and have hurt many... It's part of tests, and trials God has allowed us to go through and grow from the good and bad experiences. A child of God will face many tests, hardships in life... Jesus said in Matthew He that ENDURE unto the End the same shall be SAVED.
God the Father and Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry/worship meetings in the homes are perfect. It works perfectly as God has planned it... just like the Pearl in the oyster! Perfect as it is. Too bad, there are bad workers, who made God's Truth and Way looked bad because of their unwise decision and childish behaviors. God is still on the throne. He will straighten these things out according to His will. Just like Jesus did with the 7 churches in the book of Revelation. Shape up or He will ship them out.
I have a great confidence that God will accomplish His will in VN accordingly.... Lessons for workers to learn/imitate and examples NOT to follow from VN... The result and outcome working of God Feeders workers Vs. BAD Rulers workers.
Nathan, the further up the hierarchy people get the greater the tug-of-war between the kingdom of the friends and workers, and the kingdom of heaven that Jesus taught about. I put the blame on the system, more than on the people whose loyalty to the system leads them to abandon the principles of the kingdom of heaven in favor of expediency for the sake of the kingdom of the friends and workers. I don't believe the workers who commit these atrocious acts are bad people - they simply have a misplaced sense of loyalty. They feel compelled to defend their world-wide religious organization at all costs. Early workers determined to avoid the perils of hierarchy and organization, as Alfred Magowan explained:
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Jan 20, 2014 16:37:12 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2014 16:37:12 GMT -5
Friday, 6 Apr 2007 9:54 AM
Greetings
Dear ones,
I am so thankful to God for giving this great privilege of being in Canada and the US for exactly one year. I attended 13 conventions in both places and I must say that my cup ran over. I just want to say I am so grateful to God for all the benefits that He has given me and I want to be more to Him when I return to my country. God has really used my time here and there to enrich me. I feel so indebted to God more than ever and I want to pay my vows to Him faithfully each day that I live...
I want to tell you a bit of my trip. I left California on the 26th of March for Houston, TX, and there I was met by Kimberly Alford at the airport and she took me to her home. There I met her husband and children, and later her parents. Kimberly left VietNam when she was 2 years old with her 3 sisters, the same time with Larry Smit and his brother...I had met her sister Missy in CA and now I met Kimberly...It was such a joy to see her having a love for the Truth and for the Way of God and His people. I was also happy to see her husband who is a very nice man, who has the same love for God and His people. Then in a get together we had a potluck dinner together at their home I was so happy to see her parents and we had a very good visit...After the dinner I shared something about the work of God in VN...
The next day Kimberly and her parents drove me to the Space Center and we had a very good time together...I really enjoyed my time with them. I appreciate all that they did for me...
The next day we had dinner at the home of Mike Baker with our workers Ira Hobbs and his companion. I met a Vietnamese friend who had found the Truth recently there...I had a very nice time with them all.
The next day Elisa and her brother Pierre Mille drove quite a long distance to Houston to see me...I have known them and their parents Dominique and Mireille Mille in VN for the last 9 years. So it was so good to see them again. After having lunch at Kimberly's house they drove me to Conroe to see Ken Newman and his family. I was so happy to see them again and to see their parents who came there to meet me. We have met them all in VN before, so it was so good to be in their home and have fellowship with them...
On Saturday March 31st Ken and his son drove me to the airport and I left for Utah. I arrived at the Salt Lake Airport and was met by David Bement and he took me to his home. In 1968 David was in VN and he was stationed right in NhaTrang where Edwin Allen and I were having our mission, so it was so good to see him again after 39 years...David took me to many places to see our friends and workers. On Sunday we had a big reunion meeting with the 2 sister workers and our friends there, and in the afternoon we had a Gospel mtg and after that a potluck dinner at one friend's home...There were quite a number of friends including 2 brother workers Titus Lehman and Martin Wilson in the next field with the sister workers. They asked me to talk about the work in VN and we had a very good time together.
On Wednesday April 4th David drove me to the airport and waited for me until I completed my check in before he left me. It was very kind of him to do so...I arrived at Boise Airport in Idaho and was met by Jay Wicks and his companion Mike, Mrs Hong Le thi and Don and Lorna Williams who drove all the way from Montana to see me! I was so impressed to see them all there. Mrs Hong is the one who invited me to come to Idaho to see her and her husband. They came to the US in 1975 and were introduced to! the Chr istian and Missionary Alliance Church.
After that Mrs Hong was baptized in that church, but in 1977 or 78 her son got ill and was hospitalized. While they were there an old professing lady met Mrs Hong and as a result she was introduced to the Truth...and she made her choice to serve God a few years after that... Her husband is Chinese and he has started coming to the Gospel mtgs with her and has the workers to come to their home on Wednesday morning for a Bible read...
We had a Gospel mtg at the auditorium of a school here last night and quite a large number of friends came with a few strangers. I was able to tell them about what God had been able to do in our country since 1958 when the first 2 workers from Australia and New Zealand came to preach the Gospel in South of VietNam, and then in 1960 when Phyllis Munn and Bonnie Dahlin came to help in the work there. The Gospel has spread to many parts of our country now and has born much fruit now as we have a few more workers from Canada and the US and Korea to come to help us...
I was very happy to see David Waldo and his wife in the mtg. He has asked us to come to see him at their convention ground here. David Waldo was in VN in 1967 or so...I am very thankful to have this time free to visit these friends whom I hadn't seen for a long time or had never seen before. I will visit Portland, OR, next weekend, and after that I will go to Sacramento and San lose a see a few more friends before I return to the Orange County on the 17th of April to see my folk and get ready to attend the 1st Buttonwillow conv. and then return to VN as soon as the conv. ends on the 6th of May. I will close here with best wishes to all of you.
Yours in Christ, Chau
-- Vu Ngoc Chau
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Jan 20, 2014 17:00:37 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 20, 2014 17:00:37 GMT -5
Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Who is Jone…? Probably Evan Jones...who passed away a few years ago!
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Vietnam
Jan 20, 2014 17:22:14 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 17:22:14 GMT -5
Uncle Chau know Alan Richardson, Graham Thompson, and Jone… I believe they all know him too. Who is Jone…? Sorry, His name is JOHN.
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Jan 20, 2014 20:24:15 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 20, 2014 20:24:15 GMT -5
MT: Looking forward to hearing how you obtained a copy of this letter! Sorry, I forgot my promise because many new news coming... Yes, I would like to tell you how I obtained a copy of uncle Lyle's letter. Maybe for uncle Lyle and his staff know as well. But I want to share my thought first. If we are sincere in acting or talking, we are never afraid of hiding anything we do or afraid of being recorded our speaking. About your asking… The worker just read this letter only, not sending to anyone. Even many friends have asked to have a copy. How we had it? The same as how we had uncle Fred letter to the overseer… God gave it to us , because HE displeased with the spirit had written in that letter. One friend borrowed the letter from a foreign sister at his field (she asked him not copy the letter). He was afraid that we didn’t know there is a letter writing about uncle Hoa. He brought it to my place for us to read. (We have this copy because we have a photocopy machine at home, immediately my husband copied the letter before reading Then the friend sent back the letter the day after… Many friends still in their fellowship but disagree with the letter!. So we had known the whole letter before hearing from the workers in our field. That was the reason why my father too angry with uncle Lyle, while he visited with Cường at my parents's house. One day Lyle S. came to my father’s house to read his letter. Two things that we did not agree with him in his letter were: To respect the Workers in the highest place. (It is our Lord’s place in our heart, not Workers). And Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part in the work of God in VN anymore. My father said to Lyle, “That’s what YOU say; God never says like that.” Seeing my father disagreed with his letter, Lyle said: “I can’t take care of you any more.” My father replied, “God will take care of us.” A few days later Collin and uncle Lyle came to my house… in order to talk with us, but I refuse to hear. I said “I had known the letter, no need to read”. You wrote earlier: In the following months, day by day, Darrel exposed his malice. Stopping the work of Uncle Châu to “solve the selling of the house” was a lie and an excuse. He wanted to expel Uncle Châu permanently and not accept him back into the work. He made up bad stories and told the Elders as if they were true happenings! My family was their victims also, relating to their finding the way to kick out Uncle Châu, even though we had talked, and given evidence, and ideas to edify many times. They have seen and know their wrongs but they don’t want to correct them. And eventually they expelled us too.) Was this when you were officially expelled? When Lyle made his statement above that he couldnt take care of you any more? Was it from this date on that your family stopped attending meetings
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Jan 20, 2014 22:21:06 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 20, 2014 22:21:06 GMT -5
You wrote earlier: In the following months, day by day, Darrel exposed his malice. Stopping the work of Uncle Châu to “solve the selling of the house” was a lie and an excuse. He wanted to expel Uncle Châu permanently and not accept him back into the work. He made up bad stories and told the Elders as if they were true happenings! My family was their victims also, relating to their finding the way to kick out Uncle Châu, even though we had talked, and given evidence, and ideas to edify many times. They have seen and know their wrongs but they don’t want to correct them. And eventually they expelled us too.) Was this when you were officially expelled? When Lyle made his statement above that he couldnt take care of you any more? Was it from this date on that your family stopped attending meetings - Was this when you were officially expelled? - No, not yet, but later. when my sister repaired her house, the fellowship meetings temporary stopped. And uncle Lyle scattered the friends to other houses to have fellowship. Particularly, My daughter and my husband couldn't move far to another house and I asked uncle Lyle to move temporarily the fellowship meeting to my house ,but he refused. So we stopped and left the fellowship with them then. We knew they wanted to expelled us long time ago but they didn't come up with a reason. Now the repair of the house gave uncle Lyle good opportunity. - When Lyle made his statement above that he couldnt take care of you any more? After He said:" not take care of my father any more" at my father's house. The other day, he and Collin came to my house and said so. -Was it from this date on that your family stopped attending meetings?
From that day on, we stopped attending meetings with Lyle's organisation and start the fellowship meetings with "golden friends" in my father's house. We are free from Lyle's power.
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Vietnam
Jan 21, 2014 8:54:58 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 8:54:58 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think it has become commonly acceptable among workers that lying and deception is honourable in certain circumstances. While I suppose there could be some extreme circumstances where it could be acceptable (such as to save someone's life), the practice has become far too common among the workers such that it is in danger of becoming part of the fabric of the ministry. There is no need to lie and deceive. The truth will always set people free no matter how much ugliness it reveals. Even children should never be deceived "for their own good" although a great deal of care must be applied when telling the truth to children so that they can understand it within their own frames of reference. Clearday, the clear moral failure that corrupts everything that it touches, is when the basic respect for truth is lost -- and this respect has been systematically eradicated from 2x2ism completely -- especially at the top. The loser is not always the person deceived by the lie -- A liar will ALWAYS be a loser! Most of the most serious vices of our day, begin with folks believing their own little lies --- Alcohol and drug abuse are easy examples. -- It begins with the innocent lie -- "I don't have a problem!" or "It will just help me over the hump!!" I believe that this is the basics even of many of the sex abuse issues within 2x2ism -- Its begining isn't in inbred perversion as such, its begining is with believeing the personal lie "I just want to be kind and affectionate!" Teaching workers disrespect for truth leads to the ugliest of places. -- the 2x2 mess in Vietnam is a clear example It is a similar lie workers base many of the excommunications, and ultra cruel and unreasonable rejections on. -- "It is because we love them!!" or "It is best for 'the kingdom'!!" If one can believe their own lies they can justify anything they may wish! If a person has learned to encourage dishonesty in little things -- it will find its way to the most ugly of vices that exist!!
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Vietnam
Jan 21, 2014 10:15:06 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 21, 2014 10:15:06 GMT -5
New Zealand isn't really the work of God for there are large piles under the proverbial carpet even there! Uncle Chau had a revered guest's view as it was planned that he have! Bless his heart, IF he ever receives the knowledge within himself that the 2x2 religion is just as manmade as the Protestant churches he removed himself from...fact is they are "younger" in being then those very Protestant churches...the 2x2 religion being just a few years older then 100 yrs. old And furthermore, the man who begin the whole mess stated he did not think that the churches or the essence of the 2x2 religion would last very long...so it seems it is gradually unraveling by the hand of God....showing all of the things that are even against the laws of individual countries....this is something that makes me sick when I think about it....true man can make mistakes but if they continue to make the same mistake, apparently he hasn't learned from the mistake the first time...this is what we're see in regards to the CSA issues...to the point that the California atthuroties warne Dale Shultz that if they found another case of a perpator of CSA having been hidden for many years that Dale himself would be arrested...Lo and behold, in Michigan, those authorities didn't even warn them, they immediately went after Jerome and Bill....to their utter amazement it seemed, they both had to pay a monetary fine, court costs, spend 4 days with the prisoners in local jails plus do community services...giving those workers a taste of what can happen when people disobey the laws of their land! So our prayers are that Uncle Chau can have strength from God within him as he slowly finds out the whole truth about the 2x2 religion! And we hope he can just cling to God in that experience....for only Jesus can save us.....may we all come out of these ordeals with increased faith and love for our God and Saviour! Many thanks, very clear information to me. I have just sent to uncle Chau this idea From: Minh Thanh [mailto:hoanthanhbn@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 20, 2014 10:03 PM To: 'ngocchau' Subject: Lời hay ý đẹp Don’t be afraid OF CHANGE You may lose SOMETHING GOOD But you may gain SOMETHING BETTER. I had shared with him that I have passed this experience in the beginning of my changing with Fear and Worry, but now we gain not only THE BETTER but gain the BEST... For we become closest to our God than ever. I will send your post to uncle Chau as well. When I first learned about William Irvine and John Long discovering for themselves Matt. 10 and how Jesus sent his disciple and then the formation of the workership, etc This "truth" about the "truth" upset the very roots of my being...making me wonder just what other lies my guardians and relatives and ministers, etc had told me. It bothered me so bad I went to a cousin who I knew remembered every word his mother told him about the 2x2's...and I asked him, "Cousin, please repeat to me what you remember you mother's and grandmother's teachings about the workers and friends and all of their beginnings....so he did and sure enough he repeated exactly what I remembered having been told and that was that this "way" had started on the shores of Galilee(inference being Jesus started it) OR that it was a direct continuation of the Acts of the Apostles...otherwords that the 2x2's could be traced by human head count from that time to present day. I didn't try to tell my cousin anything, but I suspect his wife perhaps had already run onto some of this on the internet! His health is bad, and I didn't want to give him the root shaking that I was receiving on this. Then came the truth that there had be criminal workers restored to the workership time after time and their little victims and their families were told NOT to tell anyone and just let the little ones get "over it." These accountings went back nearly to the days of inception, for William Irvine was known to be a fornicator and had an illegitimate son. Then actually reading in one worker's own handwriting all about the double digit affairs he'd had while in the work.....there seemed to be no stop to the amount of "imperfect humans" all down throughout time of their being. I also begin to see why the workers have worked overtime to keep themselves "little known"....though they've been investigated as far as their convs. are concerned in the last 25 years or so.....When their candle was put under the basket was when I feel my family should have started questioning....anyone not wanting public notice just is likely to be illegal, unproved as far as the why and wherefore's of their being....etc Also WI was taken to court about him having the use of his sister workers, etc Wonder where that accusation came from? Usually when a bit of smoke is discovered in something it either has already burned down or it is fixing to flame anew! So what I'm trying to say and explain was the complete "undoing" of myself as a person knowing their identity and place in the world order! I didn't have that after all of this lovely history was digested by me! I can understand anyone's pain in finding these things out and I can fully understand their continued pain that some of these things are still going on and seems sometimes to be multiplying.......all I can say that saved me was the fact I'd spent over 3 yrs. studying about Jesus and Jesus only....this all made my relationship with Jesus very intimate and personal....I love my God and Saviour and as I tell Him, HE IS my treasure in heaven...as we all may remember Jesus telling us to lay up treasures for ourselves in heaven that neither moths nor rust can destroy! Thank God! We have Jesus a living Savior...He's alive! He's alive! And what He did through love for His Father first and His love for us IS enough to cleanse the world from their sins, IF ONLY they would have the faith in Him! Love and best wishes to all that are suffering these days and perhaps those who may suffer more in the days to come...May the Lord love and keep you!
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Vietnam
Jan 21, 2014 10:24:47 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 21, 2014 10:24:47 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I think it has become commonly acceptable among workers that lying and deception is honourable in certain circumstances. While I suppose there could be some extreme circumstances where it could be acceptable (such as to save someone's life), the practice has become far too common among the workers such that it is in danger of becoming part of the fabric of the ministry. There is no need to lie and deceive. The truth will always set people free no matter how much ugliness it reveals. Even children should never be deceived "for their own good" although a great deal of care must be applied when telling the truth to children so that they can understand it within their own frames of reference. Clearday, the clear moral failure that corrupts everything that it touches, is when the basic respect for truth is lost -- and this respect has been systematically eradicated from 2x2ism completely -- especially at the top. The loser is not always the person deceived by the lie -- A liar will ALWAYS be a loser! Most of the most serious vices of our day, begin with folks believing their own little lies --- Alcohol and drug abuse are easy examples. -- It begins with the innocent lie -- "I don't have a problem!" or "It will just help me over the hump!!" I believe that this is the basics even of many of the sex abuse issues within 2x2ism -- Its begining isn't in inbred perversion as such, its begining is with believeing the personal lie "I just want to be kind and affectionate!" Teaching workers disrespect for truth leads to the ugliest of places. -- the 2x2 mess in Vietnam is a clear example It is a similar lie workers base many of the excommunications, and ultra cruel and unreasonable rejections on. -- "It is because we love them!!" or "It is best for 'the kingdom'!!" If one can believe their own lies they can justify anything they may wish! If a person has learned to encourage dishonesty in little things -- it will find its way to the most ugly of vices that exist!! Edgar, I've heard workers in my area refer to the time when Paul wrote to the Corinthians to toss the adulterer out of the mtgs...in fact, Paul was almost angry that they were still allowing the man to be in their mtgs This is the bible "example" I've heard workers say they use! I see Paul's words to the Corinthians in both chapters as being objectionable to me...I find he was very cruel with some of the things he told them...I felt like he surely could have been more sensitive to their normal way of life.....Plus Paul seems to have preached to them the first 2 commandments which are all about loving one another and God.....so is this not perhaps the reasons the people allowed the adulterer to keep coming to meeting...for sometimes the sinning person's own conscience would winnow him out of the fold.....but the "meanness" and the "strictness" in such handling of the friends by Paul is what the workers use and then when it proves to them how "controlling effective" that is then they've enlarged on that horrible insensitive and cruel handling! Perhaps as I've noticed these past years, the 2x2's actually seem to be more "Paulines" instead of "Christians" and I think some know that and are happy about that handle!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 10:49:24 GMT -5
Edgar, I've heard workers in my area refer to the time when Paul wrote to the Corinthians to toss the adulterer out of the mtgs...in fact, Paul was almost angry that they were still allowing the man to be in their mtgs This is the bible "example" I've heard workers say they use! I see Paul's words to the Corinthians in both chapters as being objectionable to me...I find he was very cruel with some of the things he told them...I felt like he surely could have been more sensitive to their normal way of life.....Plus Paul seems to have preached to them the first 2 commandments which are all about loving one another and God.....so is this not perhaps the reasons the people allowed the adulterer to keep coming to meeting...for sometimes the sinning person's own conscience would winnow him out of the fold.....but the "meanness" and the "strictness" in such handling of the friends by Paul is what the workers use and then when it proves to them how "controlling effective" that is then they've enlarged on that horrible insensitive and cruel handling! Perhaps as I've noticed these past years, the 2x2's actually seem to be more "Paulines" instead of "Christians" and I think some know that and are happy about that handle! Yes SharingTheRiches, I think it is important to remember that it is Jesus that is to be our example .. although their are wonderful things about many other people we can admire and use as examples in some of the things they have taught, it is only Christ that was sent as the perfect example. All others fail in some ways -- including the new testament Paul. I admire some of the teachings and examples of Mother Theresa .. and the Dali Lama .. and Martin Luther King ... even some of the companions I have had in the work but none are perfect in all things. Regarding the example you brought up about the adulterer, I love the clear example Jesus gave of his spirit toward such, when he dealt with the woman taken in adultery in John 8 -- when the Pharisees wanted to deal with her harshly. This was the spirit that I would love to show to others. Paul obviously was obsessed with a different kind of spirit when he wrote to those folks in Corinth -- but then again he didn't claim perfection -- and there are other examples of the more ugly and human side of Paul showing its face.
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Vietnam
Jan 21, 2014 10:50:04 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Jan 21, 2014 10:50:04 GMT -5
Nathan said;
Once again, common sense in life is so necessary.
In no other aspect of life would someone say "listening to other views is only for the strong, and not for the faint of heart". "Unless you are very strong, only listen to one, very exclusive view in order to know what "truth" really is".
Does this make sense to anyone here?
My father-in-law will ONLY buy a Ford. He won't try anything else. Never has, probably never will. He thinks Ford is the best. Wont consider anything else.
Now a Ford dealer would probably tell him to NEVER try anything else. Just believe them. To listen to a Chevy dealer will only sew seeds of doubt.
What would someone say that is unbiased, is of reason, and REALLY cares about him. "Try them all, listen to opinions of those that drive others, then make your decision". The more information you seek for yourself, the better decision you will be able to make".
Now, if everyone of your friends that use to drive a Ford, after driving a Chevy, switched to a Chevy, would you say to yourself "I better not try one because I may end up leaving Ford just like they did" Wouldn't this defy common sense? I'm ok with "Ford has A, B & C wrong with it, but I'm really loyal to Ford, so as long as they fix A,B & C, I'll stick with it.
For our new generation. I think the reason so many are leaving is due to their using common sense. We raised them this way.
As far as for myself. I've got family and a lot of friends that drive a Ford...i.e. in "The Truth". If I decided to drive a Chevy, that would make for a "broken home", as well as a lot of people that drive a Ford wouldn't ever see me the same again. I'm hoping that A, B, & C are being corrected over time. The biggest in my mind being exclusivity. For now, I'll stick with Ford, and do my part in helping correct A, B & C.
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Post by jondough on Jan 21, 2014 12:44:00 GMT -5
Here are Jesus and apostles teaching in the 1st century: 1) Jesus said in John 14:6 I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.2) Apostle peter said in Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.3) Apostle Paul wrote in Philippians 2:5-12 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. ~~ According to the teaching of Jesus and apostles it's totally wrong for me to teach people to worship and believing in Buddha, Mohamet, and other religious leaders that can lead them to Salvation. Jesus and the apostles have made it very clear there is NO other human person on earth can SAVE us. There is NO confusion, chaos when people follow ONLY one path way. It's very simple to follow the instruction. Right. And listening to others here doesn't shake that at all does it? It may shake who you may fellowship with. A certain small group of Christian that think they are the only saved group of Christian. But I doubt it shakes what you read above. I've talked to both Buddist and Muslims. They have never shook my Christian beliefs. And its not because I'm so spiritually strong. Always remember this Nathan; No amount of scrutney, or questioning can EVER shake "truth", it will only confirm it. Therefore, truth should NEVER be threatened by it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 13:55:25 GMT -5
Right. And listening to others here doesn't shake that at all does it? It may shake who you may fellowship with. A certain small group of Christian that think they are the only saved group of Christian. But I doubt it shakes what you read above. I've talked to both Buddist and Muslims. They have never shook my Christian beliefs. And its not because I'm so spiritually strong. Always remember this Nathan; No amount of scrutney, or questioning can EVER shake "truth", it will only confirm it. Therefore, truth should NEVER be threatened by it. If workers want a strong fellowship, they would be encouraging people to examine all belief systems out there, and even encourage the friends and other workers to come to a place like this and participate. Instead they tell people to avoid all outside faith information and the result is that neither friends nor workers even know how to talk to people about faith matters anymore, let alone feel confident in their own faith. The body gets stronger from exercise, bones get denser when put under physical stress. Faith is no different....it gets stronger with exercise. When you have workers in VN who are telling people not to have bible studies with their own families, you know things are in deep trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 16:11:01 GMT -5
Always remember this Nathan; No amount of scrutney, or questioning can EVER shake "truth", it will only confirm it. Therefore, truth should NEVER be threatened by it. Amen, brother! In my bible studies with women outside the F&Ws, I have enjoyed sharing 'Jesus only' fellowship with women from all sorts of churches. Been a real joy to discover that although 'few there be that find it,' those few aren't limited to the 4 people attending our Wed night Bible study or Sunday morning mtg.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 16:12:25 GMT -5
Right. And listening to others here doesn't shake that at all does it? It may shake who you may fellowship with. A certain small group of Christian that think they are the only saved group of Christian. But I doubt it shakes what you read above. I've talked to both Buddist and Muslims. They have never shook my Christian beliefs. And its not because I'm so spiritually strong. Always remember this Nathan; No amount of scrutney, or questioning can EVER shake "truth", it will only confirm it. Therefore, truth should NEVER be threatened by it. If workers want a strong fellowship, they would be encouraging people to examine all belief systems out there, and even encourage the friends and other workers to come to a place like this and participate. Instead they tell people to avoid all outside faith information and the result is that neither friends nor workers even know how to talk to people about faith matters anymore, let alone feel confident in their own faith. The body gets stronger from exercise, bones get denser when put under physical stress. Faith is no different....it gets stronger with exercise. When you have workers in VN who are telling people not to have bible studies with their own families, you know things are in deep trouble. That just strikes me as bizarre. I can't fathom the fear that would create such a rule.
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