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Jan 17, 2014 17:14:19 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2014 17:14:19 GMT -5
My understanding of Alberta situation is that the elders and the friends went the WRONG way of questioning the leadership their ways of doing thing (Alberta Incorporation, William Irvine, and other issues, etc) Set up taping their conversation without telling the workers about it by provoking them with challenging questions. With the purpose of Exposing Jim K. tape on the Internet. The Church elders and the friends began to take side with one another against the workers, then the excommunication began....
Vietnam situation is different! To gain a better control and leadership in VN from Chau and Hoa the Canadians came up with stories (selling the Chau's brother house, and other things which I can't mention on here, to get rid of their presence in the country). This is totally a WRONG! way of showing appreciation to Chau and Hoa's faithfulness over 50 yrs of hard work, hardship in serving the Lord and His people with all the energy, strength they have. In protest, about 100 golden friends left or excommunicated because they saw the Unfairness the Canadian workers mistreating Chau and Hoa, their beloved true shepherds. Chau is NOT getting any younger, I hope they don't sent him to another place/country where they have no friends to care for him. It's good to see the golden friends are taken care of Hoa in his old age. I believe both Chau and Hoa want to die while they are in the work.
Let the Canadian workers run the show and see what kind of progress they're making in VN among the Vietnamese people and the churches over there.
It's the same mindset. The workers think that they can do no wrong and if anyone questions them they are wrong. That is a dictatorship mindset. It is a dangerous one when they through in the belief that they are guided by the Holy Spirit and God himself. They have groomed the B&R's to believe that their word is God's word. That means they can get the very devote to do just about anything, believe just about anything whether it is right or not. If it's done by a worker, it's okay. Those who have decided to buy into the mindset that their salvation is contingent upon being in the Truth and believing and supporting the workers in everything they do and say, are just as bad off as those who drank the koolaide in Jonestown. It is that mentality that is so dangerous. When the people of Alberta turned away from friends they had known all their lives because the workers told them to, that shows the 'do not question' mindset of many of them. After what happened in Alberta I cannot even fathom how any of the friends are still in the truth backing those workers. But they are and they are doing what they've been told. Very very scary. Simply because back in the early 1900's when the workers first came into the US, there wasn't the manner of communications as there is now. The closest to any capabilities for friends and young workers to get informed of adverse things going on concerning the ruling workers, was convention time and of course, unless you took your listener off privately to your vehicle you wouldn't dare tell one another about such devious and evil behaviours from the ruling workers.....but in the past 20 years the communications have opened up and the VN is perhaps the first real foreign field that we've had the privileges of reading what is really going on, we're not having to just take the worekrs' side of the story but actual truth is coming out. And I'm sorry it is so ugly! I look back at my younger years when the 2x2 fellowship seemed all rosy and healthy and the place you must be in order to be saved when you die...BUT I will say this most of the workers I ever heard preach in gospel mtgs. preached about our Jesus Christ. I don't remember then every couching in any terms in the mtgs. about that all must "get it" that the workers are the ONLY delivers of salvation! But I know now it was because we were kind of isolated in those first years way out in the country on a mountain where winter traffic was about nil....so how would we have ever known the real truth of the workers in that day....they would come for a visit....I know now where my exworker relative got the idea of breezing in for a meal and possibly and overnight stay and on to the next house....THIS is so the real story behind the workers doesn't leak out as familiarity is gained! I'm ashamed of all the exclusiveness that was within me or any other family member for the simple reason of damning the outsider to a lost eternity...to me that does NOT speak of loving our neighbors as ourselves....we should be saddened by such a possibility plus IF what we have is worthwhile then we should be seeking to share it to our neighbors with a bigger dose of love then preaching!
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 17:15:58 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 17, 2014 17:15:58 GMT -5
The workers started the mess in Alberta. It began with a lying worker and all concerns raised after that were regarding actions of the workers. I think you need to read the story again. It takes two to tango. The spirits of both sides were not good.So objecting to lies is a 'bad spirit'? I think you need to rethink that Nathan. They were objecting to deceit and lies and somehow that gets construed as a 'bad spirit'? That's just one of the many things that isn't right about the Truth. Objecting to CSA is not the right spirit either apparently. This quote out of the ones fixit gave regarding the Didsbury convention makes me ill. "I have appreciated a few visits by phone with Bevan & Heather Olson before and since the day that Eldon, Ernest and Sydney had the visit there. I marvel at their spirit of acceptance and the gracious way that they are handling this matter that could have left them feeling very bitter. They are real examples. It will be people like them that will be contributing to a solution rather than promoting a further problem. The spirit of the lamb, the spirit of a little child, the spirit that can take loss graciously without resentment or fighting back - this is the spirit that will not only preserve the kingdom (and preserve our salvation individually) but will also, in time, unite the kingdom." So walking away from their farm and livelihood, accepting it without any fighting back is considered Godly? That's what the workers want from the friends and they appreciate it when the friends just give in, allow the workers to walk all over them and they don't question. However the workers wouldn't return that kind of 'gracious spirit' if it was one of them having something taken from them. Hypocrites is how I see them.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 18:13:16 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2014 18:13:16 GMT -5
So objecting to lies is a 'bad spirit'? I think you need to rethink that Nathan. They were objecting to deceit and lies and somehow that gets construed as a 'bad spirit'? That's just one of the many things that isn't right about the Truth. Objecting to CSA is not the right spirit either apparently. This quote out of the ones fixit gave regarding the Didsbury convention makes me ill. "I have appreciated a few visits by phone with Bevan & Heather Olson before and since the day that Eldon, Ernest and Sydney had the visit there. I marvel at their spirit of acceptance and the gracious way that they are handling this matter that could have left them feeling very bitter. They are real examples. It will be people like them that will be contributing to a solution rather than promoting a further problem. The spirit of the lamb, the spirit of a little child, the spirit that can take loss graciously without resentment or fighting back - this is the spirit that will not only preserve the kingdom (and preserve our salvation individually) but will also, in time, unite the kingdom." So walking away from their farm and livelihood, accepting it without any fighting back is considered Godly? That's what the workers want from the friends and they appreciate it when the friends just give in, allow the workers to walk all over them and they don't question. However the workers wouldn't return that kind of 'gracious spirit' if it was one of them having something taken from them. Hypocrites is how I see them. The workers make mistakes in how they handle the situation in Alberta, Vietnam and other places around the world. It keeps them humble. Let us hope and pray they will learn from it by working with the friends openly, answering questions honestly, without feeling a threat. Nathan, what evidence do you have that recognition of past mistakes has made workers humble? On the contrary, it seems that getting away with their controlling behavior makes them proud. The letter Dale Shultz wrote to the poor souls who confided their concerns to him was a disgraceful example of worker politics trampling on the principles Christ lived and taught. Shaking off those who sought his help got rapid promotion for him, so that he's now the leading overseer in the powerful Western Alliance. And able to repeat the same ungodly "mistakes" in Vietnam.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 18:22:58 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2014 18:22:58 GMT -5
Alberta excommunication fiasco, how they handle CSA situation, Vietnam take over situation are posting on the Internet should keep them humble for years to come. Do you think they care about "the disturbed ones" who post and read what is on the internet?
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 18:29:06 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 17, 2014 18:29:06 GMT -5
Alberta excommunication fiasco, how they handle CSA situation, Vietnam take over situation are posting on the Internet should keep them humble for years to come. While I agree it should, I am afraid I don't believe it will. The more they get away with, the more they are going to test how much further they can exert their powers before people revolt. I have always said that making salvation dependent on another human is a recipe for failure and abuse. And, that's what we see happening in the case of Alberta and VN and even CSA which is something you would think most people, even the overseers would want to take a very hardcore stand against. It baffles me why they don't. I can't imagine their reasoning.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 19:06:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 19:06:23 GMT -5
It takes two to tango. The spirits of both sides were not good. So objecting to lies is a 'bad spirit'? I think you need to rethink that Nathan. They were objecting to deceit and lies and somehow that gets construed as a 'bad spirit'? That's just one of the many things that isn't right about the Truth. Objecting to CSA is not the right spirit either apparently. This quote out of the ones fixit gave regarding the Didsbury convention makes me ill. "I have appreciated a few visits by phone with Bevan & Heather Olson before and since the day that Eldon, Ernest and Sydney had the visit there. I marvel at their spirit of acceptance and the gracious way that they are handling this matter that could have left them feeling very bitter. They are real examples. It will be people like them that will be contributing to a solution rather than promoting a further problem. The spirit of the lamb, the spirit of a little child, the spirit that can take loss graciously without resentment or fighting back - this is the spirit that will not only preserve the kingdom (and preserve our salvation individually) but will also, in time, unite the kingdom." So walking away from their farm and livelihood, accepting it without any fighting back is considered Godly? That's what the workers want from the friends and they appreciate it when the friends just give in, allow the workers to walk all over them and they don't question. However the workers wouldn't return that kind of 'gracious spirit' if it was one of them having something taken from them. Hypocrites is how I see them. The AB situation is practically identical to VN. To try to shift the blame onto the friends at this time is completely wrong unless one believes that the friends should roll over and play dead every time they see something wrong. I personally know a lot of those friends and know that they are all people of high integrity and certainly didn't have a "bad spirit" as they tried to work through the problems, almost entirely without success. The incorporation was dissolved and the oil rights were changed, but those were hardly major items. Things like having a top Sunday elder philanderer and into child porn being supported by the workers was typical of the important things being ignored.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 19:13:51 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 19:13:51 GMT -5
I'm beginning to wonder what planet NathanB is on? Nat - read the Alberta story again.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 19:46:45 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2014 19:46:45 GMT -5
Do you think they care about "the disturbed ones" who post and read what is on the internet? Yes, they do care and take heed of what is going within the fellowship/ministry.... look at what happened to Ira H. the ex-overseer in Texas... They asked him to leave the position of an overseer and the ministry. So, I say YES they do care. CSA is a taboo subject for hundreds, thousands of years.... Many of these old workers are still in that mindset, they don't want to deal with it head on, still taboo subject to them. It's hard to teach an old dog a new trick. With JF went to jail for not reporting will wake many of them wake up and understand the seriousness of CSA.
When I was at Boring, convention recently I talked to Lyle S. about CSA and he mentioned that many workers have approached him and want to know about CSA classes on the Internet. He mentioned most of the workers back in mid/east coast have taken CSA classes. The younger generation of workers know the seriousness of CSA and it has to STOP.... It's no longer a taboo subject to be sweep under the carpet like they had done for hundreds, thousands of years before.Nathan, I can't say that pushing IH out of his overseership was very beneficial! Yes, he went around for sometimes explaining to people that the reason he wasn't an active worker was due to his health or the issues with his vocal cords...he could hardly speak above a whisper, but I did happen to hear him speak almost in normal tones. Then the man marries and ex sister worker who had been married to a man who apparently had some money! His will stated that his widow was to be welcome to dwell in their home UNTIL she remarried or chose to leave! Nothing was to go with her other then her own things.....IH and she was delegated to a mtg. there where she lived about 50 miles ones way, that was the ONLY mtg. that agreed for his presence. They moved to MO to live near her brother, then IH goes to Blackwater Conv. and also gives his testimony at that conv. I have to ask, why was he allowed to be at that conv.? Where there were children of all ages! Something isn't right with his case now! So we look at other cases where the workers don't do anything about anything that needs doing and why? Some of it is this, they know that they themselves are a guilty of things that prevents them from being able to disown a peer worker such as IH! Otherwords, their wrongs might get aired as well, plus the "reputation of the work MUST always be held to be pure and faithful"! There is NO need for the horrific treatment the dear VN friends and the 2 older workers getting shafted as they have....but then perhaps it will turn for them as it turned for Edgar Massey and his family...finding true faith outside the 2x2 religion, free from sin and free from the dictatorships of the little beastie workers!
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 19:51:54 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 19:51:54 GMT -5
I'm beginning to wonder what planet NathanB is on? Nat - read the Alberta story again. Based on Nathan's comments, I would suggest that he is accepting the party line and doesn't believe the written accounts. If he heard the party line on VN, he would probably think this was the fault of the Golden friends in VN too. That's just how it works.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 22:27:20 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Jan 17, 2014 22:27:20 GMT -5
Nathan, the whole problem with the 2x2 structure is that it does take two to tango, and that has to be always. You can't have two in a tango in one case and then have three or more dancing in another situation and then drop down to only one dancer, such as Chau.
I can see why the workers don't like the F&Ws dancing is that in one place two are needed to tango, and in Chau's case,he is dancing alone and then in the Alberta and VN situation, who knows how many dance here.
Jesus said " I am the way" and as we sat in too many meetings we constantly heard that Jesus did not say " I am a way", so now the workers are saying that for Jesus.
In the worker's world, Jesus, the Son of God, and Savior of mankind could not tell who or how many were dancing, until they make it up. William Irvine went to a lot of trouble to have these modern day workers come in and muck things about so that this is the case.
Tell us Nathan, how many are dancing in this dance?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 1:08:58 GMT -5
Thanks to the very clear, well documented and well written account of developments in Vietnam (written by the folks directly involved).. the '2x2 leadership' version of events has failed to deceive as it usually has done, and it has very obviously been refuted and proven to be dishonest and misleading -- The whole thing has proven to be nothing but a very clear 2x2 takeover of power at all cost.
This has made me doubt a few other international take-overs that we only have been given the '2x2 version' .... for instance Greece a number of years ago, where 2x2 leadership has painted it up as a matter of financial misconduct by some of the native Greek workers and expelled them just as in Vietnam -- and then replaced them with 'approved' foreign overseers --
How can we ever accept the official 2x2 leadership version of anything any more when this example of utter corruption of 2x2 leadership moral values in Vietnam has been brought to our attention?
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Jan 18, 2014 7:47:08 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Jan 18, 2014 7:47:08 GMT -5
Dear Brothers and Sisters, On Feb. 15, 2012 Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a meeting with Uncle Hoa at our apartment ( bach) in Saigon. In the last few months, Uncle Hoa has visited friends quietly. He has tried to avoid talking to and seeing the ministry leaders. He did not attend Special Meetings. Uncle Hoa’s absences lead to a lot of brothers and sister raising questions about his sudden changes. It was necessary for us to talk directly to Uncle Hoa in order to provide answers for those who asked about Uncle Hoa’s absence. So we had arranged a meeting during which we asked Uncle Hoa about how he felt about the relationship between us. Uncle Hoa had stated that he did not agree with the way we managed the ministry in this country. We could not talk more to him about this issue. In the end, he decided to leave us. After the meeting, we would like to brief a few things and make known to all of you: 1- Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in the middle of 2010 with no intention of coming back. Thus, he is not considered to have any part in the work in this country.
2- We acknowledge that Uncle Hoa was in the ministry for many years prior to 2010. We are very thankful for all his years of service and give him our respect. We also understand that a lot of brothers and sisters have shared kind memories with him. He has been helpful and supportive in the past. It was hurtful for all of us to see him leave. We will appreciate any effort that can encourage him to keep in touch and be cooperative with the workers in the fields that he visits. 3- Uncle Hoa can keep in touch with us whenever he is ready. The door is always open for him. If he wishes, we are ready to do anything in our ability to help him to have a useful place. 4- All brothers and sisters should feel free to talk to Uncle Hoa, if comfortable doing so. We don’t try to police or intervene with personal acquaintances. Though we know certain brothers and sisters do not feel comfortable talking to him because he has separated himself from us and does not have close fellowship with the workers in this country. We want to stress one thing and make it clear: the workers are men and women who devote their lives for the work. They deserve our utmost respect. The unity among workers and friends is the result of the work of God in our hearts and we should protect our hearts from any influences that bring division among us. This is horrible!!! There is nothing "voluntary" about Hoa leaving the work! There isn't "unity" when you're ordered to "fit in," there is only fear of the group dumping you. This reminds me of how the workers play in the United States. If they don't want to deal with a problem then you're creating "a great gulf" between you and them. Of course, it's the workers' unwillingness to deal with problems that creates the gulf, but I guess you're supposed to ignore that at the time.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 8:26:08 GMT -5
If it can be of comfort to any!!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 9:02:04 GMT -5
Dear Brothers and Sisters, On Feb. 15, 2012 Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a meeting with Uncle Hoa at our apartment ( bach) in Saigon. In the last few months, Uncle Hoa has visited friends quietly. He has tried to avoid talking to and seeing the ministry leaders. He did not attend Special Meetings. Uncle Hoa’s absences lead to a lot of brothers and sister raising questions about his sudden changes. It was necessary for us to talk directly to Uncle Hoa in order to provide answers for those who asked about Uncle Hoa’s absence. So we had arranged a meeting during which we asked Uncle Hoa about how he felt about the relationship between us. Uncle Hoa had stated that he did not agree with the way we managed the ministry in this country. We could not talk more to him about this issue. In the end, he decided to leave us. After the meeting, we would like to brief a few things and make known to all of you: 1- Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in the middle of 2010 with no intention of coming back. Thus, he is not considered to have any part in the work in this country.
2- We acknowledge that Uncle Hoa was in the ministry for many years prior to 2010. We are very thankful for all his years of service and give him our respect. We also understand that a lot of brothers and sisters have shared kind memories with him. He has been helpful and supportive in the past. It was hurtful for all of us to see him leave. We will appreciate any effort that can encourage him to keep in touch and be cooperative with the workers in the fields that he visits. 3- Uncle Hoa can keep in touch with us whenever he is ready. The door is always open for him. If he wishes, we are ready to do anything in our ability to help him to have a useful place. 4- All brothers and sisters should feel free to talk to Uncle Hoa, if comfortable doing so. We don’t try to police or intervene with personal acquaintances. Though we know certain brothers and sisters do not feel comfortable talking to him because he has separated himself from us and does not have close fellowship with the workers in this country. We want to stress one thing and make it clear: the workers are men and women who devote their lives for the work. They deserve our utmost respect. The unity among workers and friends is the result of the work of God in our hearts and we should protect our hearts from any influences that bring division among us. As this letter makes very clear, Hoa is a wonderful example of, even when directly confronted with an extremely overbearing and power hungry leadership - a leadership obsessed with a highly group-political prestige issue, of Hoa being willing to stand for basic, well accepted Christian principle in his service - regardless the personal cost. This issue clearly exemplifies an enormous moral failure by group leadership .. and even more serious, the clearly distasteful moral cowardice of the vast majority of lower ranking workers who simply chose to 'look the other way' -- as the easy way out!!!. To me, 2x2ism has clearly beocome 'the fellowship of cowards' -- people scared stiff to challenge well understood widespread and non-contestable unrighteousness within their own ranks -- (yet quick to 'strain at a knot' for the slightest irregularity in other groups)
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 9:08:43 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 18, 2014 9:08:43 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 9:30:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 9:30:25 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
How will that comply with him being the legal authority of the group in Vietnam with the Govt. there? Wish those authorities could know the pressures put on him to do this thing.
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 9:33:30 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 9:33:30 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
MinhThanh What is the language situation for him in Cambodia? -- From what I can understand Vietnameze isn't a major language in Cambodia. What language does Chau use there?
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Jan 18, 2014 9:41:22 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 9:41:22 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
MinhThanh What is the language situation for him in Cambodia? -- From what I can understand Vietnameze isn't a major language in Cambodia. What language does Chau use there? Here is an informed comment from someone familiar with SE Asia. (The language of Cambodia is Khmer): In spite of any ancient similarities, I understand that Khmer is not understood by anyone with Vietnamese language. My guess is that it would be like a French person listening to Spanish or German.....some connections but a distinctly different language. That would leave Chau having to learn Khmer, or limit his ministry to those who either know Vietnamese or possibly English if Chau knows English.
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 10:01:05 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 18, 2014 10:01:05 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
MinhThanh What is the language situation for him in Cambodia? -- From what I can understand Vietnameze isn't a major language in Cambodia. What language does Chau use there? Uncle Châu is too old to learn a new language (Khmer). He used to preach in English in Cambodia for a very few English people there. In the past being there he taught English for the children only. My friend had visited him in Cambodia, she said Uncle Châu like a babysister than a worker. I was broken my heart to know this news, because his eyes become worse and worse, and he become old too. I just phoned and talk a lot with him. Explain to him many things. But he just asked me pray, wait for God's work. What a pity to him. We can see very clearly there is no unity among Lyle and his staff with uncle Châu. They'll get consequence for this decision.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2014 10:17:00 GMT -5
Uncle Châu is too old to learn a new language (Khmer). He used to preach in English in Cambodia for a very few English people there. In the past being there he taught English for the children only. My friend had visited him in Cambodia, she said Uncle Châu like a babysister than a worker. I was broken my heart to know this news, because his eyes become worse and worse, and he become old too. I just phoned and talk a lot with him. Explain to him many things. But he just asked me pray, wait for God's work. What a pity to him. We can see very clearly there is no unity among Lyle and his staff with uncle Châu. They'll get consequence for this decision. Minh Thanh I certainly appreciate your concern and interest in the welfare of Chau -- and I hope that he knows that we also feel for him and understand the pain and frustration being placed upon him by 2x2 leadership. The unreasonableness of sending an old man, with failing eyesight, to a country where he can't speak the language, with companions that regard him as a problem -- and give him a babysitting job (probably mostly meant as an insult) -- when it is well understood that all his closest friends are in Vietnam is the heighth of cruelty. To me it is rather unfathomable that none of the other workers have the courage to stand by him. -- Again -- ' the fellowship of cowards' comes to mind.
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Jan 18, 2014 10:24:41 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 18, 2014 10:24:41 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
Has the VN government approved of this move? What type visa does Chau have? Does it have a time limit? 6 months or a year? or something maybe?
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 11:05:48 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 18, 2014 11:05:48 GMT -5
I have a very new news... Uncle Chau was arranged go to Cambodia again on February !...
Has the VN government approved of this move? What type visa does Chau have? Does it have a time limit? 6 months or a year? or something maybe? Has the VN government approved of this move? We really don't know. We are free to go to a Southeast Asian country. Very easily just with our passport, the limit according to the nation permitted. Maybe 1, 3, 6 months or 1 year. At the end of the limit we go out then returm the day after, we have the new limit.
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Jan 18, 2014 11:48:56 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2014 11:48:56 GMT -5
Nathan, the whole problem with the 2x2 structure is that it does take two to tango, and that has to be always. You can't have two in a tango in one case and then have three or more dancing in another situation and then drop down to only one dancer, such as Chau. I can see why the workers don't like the F&Ws dancing is that in one place two are needed to tango, and in Chau's case,he is dancing alone and then in the Alberta and VN situation, who knows how many dance here. Jesus said " I am the way" and as we sat in too many meetings we constantly heard that Jesus did not say " I am a way", so now the workers are saying that for Jesus. In the worker's world, Jesus, the Son of God, and Savior of mankind could not tell who or how many were dancing, until they make it up. William Irvine went to a lot of trouble to have these modern day workers come in and muck things about so that this is the case. Tell us Nathan, how many are dancing in this dance? How many ways do you read Jesus had in the 1st century New Testament Church? One Way, His Way or the highway! Jesus said "I am the WAY, the Truth and life no man comes to the Father but through me."
Paul wrote in I Cor. 11:1 be ye followers of me, even as I follow the examples of Christ.
Follow the workers who follow Christ. The workers who don't follow Christ's examples will be given an accountable for all they have done before Him. God is keeping books of accountability, work, and reward on every child of God(Rev. 20:12). The workers who abuse the little ones, beat the lambs and sheep will get greater punishment and be cast out with the unbelievers in outer darkness forever.
Chau is NOT dancing alone! in this dance. He has many people praying for him. Chau has the Lord Jesus standing beside him, and protecting him.... for years. He and Hoa are God's Living witnesses walking miracles. God has invest a lot of His work, time in them. He sent them through great hardships before, during and after the war. They overcame all kinds of Canadian workers hellish tests.
Has anyone had a thought that all of this fiasco taking place with the workers over and over again, might just be allowed for one specific reason? MIght it be that God has heard the cries of those who are faithful to Jesus Christ and God is separating them from the 2x2 workers for the simple fact that God has given some of the 2x2 workers over to reprobate minds due to their hiding secretx plus also being personally guilty in areas of fornication, etc? Why would God allow these innocent whole hearted people stay within a fellowship that has been corrupted by reprobated minded workers? Truly it says that the faithful will see tribulation but for their souls' sakes that God will shorten those days of tribulation whereas those who are not Christ's faithful will face the worst days of tribulation before the Lord returns? I look back on my own "in and out" of the 2x2 fellowship...seems to me that God tried to give me a chance to come to the conclusion that I must worship Jesus Christ without the 2x2 fellowship...but for the raising I had that if one isn't within the 2x2 fellowship then one is headed for a lost eternity, the very reason I reprofessed, but had already studied and come to realize that faith in Jesus Christ is where my salvation lies.....
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Jan 18, 2014 12:03:34 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 18, 2014 12:03:34 GMT -5
MinhThanh What is the language situation for him in Cambodia? -- From what I can understand Vietnameze isn't a major language in Cambodia. What language does Chau use there? Uncle Châu is too old to learn a new language (Khmer). He used to preach in English in Cambodia for a very few English people there. In the past being there he taught English for the children only. My friend had visited him in Cambodia, she said Uncle Châu like a babysister than a worker. I was broken my heart to know this news, because his eyes become worse and worse, and he become old too. I just phoned and talk a lot with him. Explain to him many things. But he just asked me pray, wait for God's work. What a pity to him. We can see very clearly there is no unity among Lyle and his staff with uncle Châu. They'll get consequence for this decision. Seems when people get old and know their days on earth are measuring a bit shorter then in younger years, often their "patience" is more mature and ready to accept most anything as long as the truth of the matter does become known! I'm seeing this in Uncle Chau, apparently he is willing to show just what is not of God and go where the arrogant leaders push him for he knows that his life may well soon be over. His responses and carefulness in this VN fiasco reminds of me of 2 different people...the first one is the old man who God had promised that he'd live long enough to see the Saviour of God's people. He did see that Saviour and held him in his arms! Then his patience in abiding untold agonies in regards to what his fellow Jews were doing or not doing as far as obeying the Lord paid off for him. After seeing Jesus the babe, he was ready to enter into his rest! Another person Uncle Chau reminds me of is the Saviour himself! Didn't Jesus KNOW exactly of what he would have to go through in order to fulfill the prophecies in the OT? I believe he did...in Hebrews it mentions Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemane..."in that he feared...." What did Jesus fear? He feared that it might be possible that he would fold before going through the punishment of a man headed for the worst and most demeaning execution known in the land at that day....but Love for his Father and Love for each human led Him on to Calvary's Cross....Jesus' patience in knowing that the worst was to come before the best.....seems Uncle Chau knows something within himself and he's willing to allow the boss workers all their glory in the VN sun UNTIL something happens that they, themselves will be brought to account for all the evil that they'd perpetuated in VN.....Uncle Chau is NOT long for this world unless God sees it necessary to keep him on earth longer then what is normal lifespan for someone of Chau's lineage, etc
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Vietnam
Jan 18, 2014 19:09:56 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 18, 2014 19:09:56 GMT -5
This poem is considered as the first Independence declaration of Viet Nam in 981. By Lê Hoàn, a King has the same name as my husband's name (Hoàn) . Bản phiên âm Hán-Việt: (The meaning by old letter) Nam quốc sơn hà
Nam quốc sơn hà Nam đế cư,
Tiệt nhiên định phận tại Thiên thư.
Như hà nghịch lỗ lai xâm phạm,
Nhữ đẳng hành khan thủ bại hư.
Bản dịch thơ: (Translate into new letter) Sông núi nước Nam
Sông núi nước Nam, vua Nam ở,
Rành rạch định phận tại sách trời
Cớ sao lũ giặc sang xâm phạm
Chúng bây sẽ bị đánh tơi bời
(Translate into English) Mountain & River of Viet Nam
South River & Mountains, lives South King,
Clarify separated in the book of heaven.
Why invaders to infringe
They now will be beaten
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2014 5:03:28 GMT -5
Hebrews 10:30-35 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. These Canadian workers will get a taste of their own medicine someday! If not in this life time then in the next life for sure.... for cruel, mistreating fellow-servants.
The Canadians should have a Big gathering when Chau returned to VN.... All of the friends, the church elders, the workers, Chau, Hoa and the golden friends and make it right with them! by apologizing for the cruel, wrong things they have done and ask for forgiveness. They should have allowed Chau to stay/labor in VN because of his health. He doesn't have too many years left in the work. He and Hoa can mend things between both sides, because they have a great respect from the friends. This is NOT how you treat a faithful, true Lamb nature servant. The Vietnamese are VERY forgiven people! They don't hold grudge very long. If the Canadians do what is right, they will get a lot of respect from the Vietnamese friends/workers and those around the world.Nathan, I think that both you and I know that ' Its not going to happen' -- 2x2ism at the top, completely lacks the capacity to back down even from obvious iniquity, and show repentance - It has never happened in 2x2 history when things get to the enormous ugly scale that they have reached in Vietnam. However I am not sure the 'vengeance thing' is any Christian attitude to put our hope and trust in either. As in all other events in life outside our control -- the Christian solution is just to find a personal way to do what is honorable and right, and to follow the leadings of the Christian spirit - independent the things that have so obviously been a complete moral failure around us. For my part, and for the part of many others that have been subject of similar betrayals by 2x2ism, God has recompensed us 100 fold for what we may have seemed to have lost by these 2x2 betrayals. I am satisfied that all these dear and admirable folks in Vietnam will also experience this. God looks after those that are his. For many of us, even if 2x2ism would back down on the issues that led to our dismissal -- we wouldn't return. We have found something so very much better.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 19, 2014 12:42:34 GMT -5
BTW, Edgar, Cherie...what do you think about trying to link Uncle Chau with Graham in the Down Under! I feel perhaps they could encourage one another as they face unknown future!
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 19, 2014 13:00:20 GMT -5
BTW, Edgar, Cherie...what do you think about trying to link Uncle Chau with Graham in the Down Under! I feel perhaps they could encourage one another as they face unknown future! I know that Minh THanh is reading the threads about GT and I'm sure if she thinks its a good idea, she will do so.
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