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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 16:53:10 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Jan 16, 2014 16:53:10 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying Edgar, and largely agree but I'm not sure that "2x2ism" is the best descriptor for the root cause of the problem. I think you'd find that any exclusive and hierarchical church would produce similar results, so its probably more accurate to say that "exclusivism" combined with "authoritarianism" are what destroys "the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love..." that you refer to. I agree, that root evil in 2x2ism is exclusivism (Everyone else on the earth is less righteous than us!!!)... But I think that anyone closely associated with 2x2ism understands full well that exclusivism IS 2x2ism. They will compromise and adjust on pretty much every other core doctrinal principle .. but subtract exclusivism from 2x2 doctrine, and 2x2ism will vanish completely. No one can even dare suggest that 'the work' doesn't exclusively represent God, or they will be rejected from the group completely - There are hundreds examples of this -- and nothing to suggest that things are changing. (just check the basics of this thread!!) I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I have had many conversations - privately - with different ones. Its really surprising how many people don't believe that we are the ONLY way. Of course, no one would say it publicly, or in meeting. They are very careful whom they express their non-exclusive view to. I agree that this exclusive view is the root to so many problems.
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 17:09:34 GMT -5
Post by Done4now on Jan 16, 2014 17:09:34 GMT -5
I agree, that root evil in 2x2ism is exclusivism (Everyone else on the earth is less righteous than us!!!)... But I think that anyone closely associated with 2x2ism understands full well that exclusivism IS 2x2ism. They will compromise and adjust on pretty much every other core doctrinal principle .. but subtract exclusivism from 2x2 doctrine, and 2x2ism will vanish completely. No one can even dare suggest that 'the work' doesn't exclusively represent God, or they will be rejected from the group completely - There are hundreds examples of this -- and nothing to suggest that things are changing. (just check the basics of this thread!!) I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I have had many conversations - privately - with different ones. Its really surprising how many people don't believe that we are the ONLY way. Of course, no one would say it publicly, or in meeting. They are very careful whom they express their non-exclusive view to. I agree that this exclusive view is the root to so many problems. I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 17:24:11 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2014 17:24:11 GMT -5
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I have had many conversations - privately - with different ones. Its really surprising how many people don't believe that we are the ONLY way. Of course, no one would say it publicly, or in meeting. They are very careful whom they express their non-exclusive view to. I agree that this exclusive view is the root to so many problems. I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually I wonder if globalization and the information age is a factor. Under 30s have had greater exposure to the world outside of the fellowship.
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 17:24:59 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 17:24:59 GMT -5
I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually As I have said -- The folks at the bottom NEVER have had exclusivity as a core value (neither did I when I was a young lad growing up on the farm 50-60 years ago). But the top level ALWAYS have -- that is what 2x2 doctrine does for folks -- The more 'up to your neck' people get into 2x2ism the more exclusive they become -- and the more willing they become to abandon whatever Christian values need to be abandoned to preserve this 'exclusive' mindset. This board has given countless examples of this -- and aside from wishful thinking, I see no significant change in this -- there is too much evidence otherwise. As Jesus suggested, a new patch on a new garment is a hopeless task.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:33:35 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2014 17:33:35 GMT -5
I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually As I have said -- The folks at the bottom NEVER have had exclusivity as a core value (neither did I when I was a young lad growing up on the farm 50-60 years ago). But the top level ALWAYS have -- that is what 2x2 doctrine does for folks -- The more 'up to your neck' people get into 2x2ism the more exclusive they become -- and the more willing they become to abandon whatever Christian values need to be abandoned to preserve this 'exclusive' mindset. This board has given countless examples of this -- and aside from wishful thinking, I see no significant change in this -- there is too much evidence otherwise. As Jesus suggested, a new patch on a new garment is a hopeless task. That's an interesting post Edgar. Was exclusivity ever a core value for you? When you fell out with the overseers, could that have been mostly about a clash between your non-exclusivity and the exclusivity of the overseers? I understand what you're saying with the following statement:
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Jan 16, 2014 17:42:12 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 17:42:12 GMT -5
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I have had many conversations - privately - with different ones. Its really surprising how many people don't believe that we are the ONLY way. Of course, no one would say it publicly, or in meeting. They are very careful whom they express their non-exclusive view to. I agree that this exclusive view is the root to so many problems. I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually Partly accurate but it's more complicated than that. Most young people are non-exclusive, especially these days since workers only preach in the most oblique of terms which most people don't hear. Any kids who are exclusive get it directly from their parents. However, the non-exclusive kids do go through a change, either when they get married but usually when they have their first child. At that time, a lot of them go exclusive. I should qualify that my information comes from people who are now well in their 30's describing their observations of their peers. Someone in their mid-30's today is more likely to have been exposed to more exclusivity when they were younger. However, kids who are 20 today hardly know about it at all. If it is totally foreign to them, then you might be correct that exclusivity is going to fall away over the next 25 years unless the current leadership takes a more activist approach to exclusivity.
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Jan 16, 2014 17:52:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 17:52:48 GMT -5
As I have said -- The folks at the bottom NEVER have had exclusivity as a core value (neither did I when I was a young lad growing up on the farm 50-60 years ago). But the top level ALWAYS have -- that is what 2x2 doctrine does for folks -- The more 'up to your neck' people get into 2x2ism the more exclusive they become -- and the more willing they become to abandon whatever Christian values need to be abandoned to preserve this 'exclusive' mindset. This board has given countless examples of this -- and aside from wishful thinking, I see no significant change in this -- there is too much evidence otherwise. As Jesus suggested, a new patch on a new garment is a hopeless task. That's an interesting post Edgar. Was exclusivity ever a core value for you? When you fell out with the overseers, could that have been mostly about a clash between your non-exclusivity and the exclusivity of the overseers? I understand what you're saying with the following statement: I'm inclined to disagree with Edgar about the people "at the bottom". While I didn't have much of an exclusive mindset growing up either and actually considered it in my mid-teens and rejected it, I was well aware that exclusivity was well entrenched with pretty much everyone in the meetings. I certainly can't say I wasn't without doubts about my non-exclusivity from time to time either. An old friend of mine, whom I have known for 40 years, got discussing exclusivity with me a couple of years ago. He revealed to me that he was non-exclusive. When I told him I was also non-exclusive, even extremely so, he told me that I was the only non-exclusive friend that he knows about in the meetings anywhere. He suspected a few others but wasn't sure. I am personally aware of quite a few non-exclusives but only because I have had a focus on the issue....plus they always make pretty good friends and acquaintances. Still, among the adults it's still a pretty small number even though there are a lot more around than a couple of decades ago.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:30:08 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 18:30:08 GMT -5
Never once knew of a worker free from the exclusivity position. NOT ONCE in 50 years. Nor was I, I'm ashamed to have to confess now. It took over 5 years for me to get free from that doctrine, and I will be forever thankful for those (some now dead) who helped me see the error. Glad for any who feel they were not contaminated by that teaching and believe it has been the single thing that kept many from breaking free from 2&2ism.
Even yet, few seem willing to come forward and say they too, were once overtaken by that false mindset. It is what holds the sycophants (within that work and without) back from being able to escape. I know of those who have not attended meetings in decades who still cling to that view point about 2&2ism. They will confess they cannot live it, they cannot even pretend to live it, yet when push comes to shove, down where the rubber meets the road as the saying goes, they still believe it (that system rather than the LORD, a being, is "the only way."
When it has been drilled into children from their very conception "it (2&2ism) is the only way to walk, the only truth to believe, and the only life to live..." that becomes a mantra deep inside a person by which they are convicted, until an new revelation is given them. I agree with Edgar completely on this topic.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:32:30 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 16, 2014 18:32:30 GMT -5
Yes Nathan I have enough experience with 2x2ism to know that there are many workers that, at least to start with, are able to resist some of the ugliest tendencies of 2x2 doctrine. For instance I remember years as companion with Dale Shultz when he wasn't victim to the ugly corruption that is evident today in Vietnam. This ugliness that has been made evident is not in many workers when they start out --- but the doctine itself encourages this kind of thing, so few manage to keep the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love .. if they allow 2x2ism to work in their lives. This is why 2x2ism is so dangerous as a homemade doctrine. I think of the enormous corruptive influence that 2x2ism has had on a number of close friends to me -- One obvious one is Dale Shultz the other is Willis Propp. It is a sick doctrine that forces its followers to self-righeously contend their moral superiority over every other doctrine on the face of the earth. No wonder it turns into such corruption. I hear what you're saying Edgar, and largely agree but I'm not sure that "2x2ism" is the best descriptor for the root cause of the problem. I think you'd find that any exclusive and hierarchical church would produce similar results, so its probably more accurate to say that "exclusivism" combined with "authoritarianism" are what destroys "the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love..." that you refer to. Exactly, as you say "exclusivism" combined with "authoritarianism" are what destroys "the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love..." We have had many very good workers in our country. They were closely fellowship with us while they were in the field I was staying, with love and understanding... But being under the control of overseer, they turned their faces and excomunicate with us without any reasons. I didn't doing anything wrong with them... I couldn't explain anything here... All things happenned just help me to know how being under the Spirit of God leading or under the authority of man, It turned absolutely different in a person. I have asked uncle Châu many times... "Being a worker of God, do you think God will agree and satisfy with you, when seeing you obey their ruler and avoid us. If we are doing wrong, you should more closer to us & help. Our God is the God of peace and unity not division as these people asking you to excommunicate with us." Now they are searching if uncle Châu still connect with us or not. Find out any communication, immediately that will be in the black list of the overseer, to prove that uncle Châu still disobey the overseer rule. What a pity for our local workers...
As I had said, It was very deficult for him, some had happenned. I am waiting to see the progressive situation.
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 18:35:24 GMT -5
Post by jondough on Jan 16, 2014 18:35:24 GMT -5
We should probably not hijack this thread. The Vietnam subject is pretty important.
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Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2014 19:55:17 GMT -5
Now they are searching if uncle Châu still connect with us or not. Find out any communication, immediately that will be in the black list of the overseer, to prove that uncle Châu still disobey the overseer rule. What a pity for our local workers... As I had said, It was very deficult for him, some had happenned. I am waiting to see the progressive situation. System-minded people seem insecure in their faith. Their faith system seems to be so delicate that they're paranoid about anything that might disturb the status quo.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:11:53 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 16, 2014 21:11:53 GMT -5
Now they are searching if uncle Châu still connect with us or not. Find out any communication, immediately that will be in the black list of the overseer, to prove that uncle Châu still disobey the overseer rule. What a pity for our local workers... As I had said, It was very deficult for him, some had happenned. I am waiting to see the progressive situation. System-minded people seem insecure in their faith. Their faith system seems to be so delicate that they're paranoid about anything that might disturb the status quo. This intercepting people's communications with someone else is very frightening! This is what the dictator's of communism do or have done....people lose all their human rights because someone wants to hold them to their own expectations and beliefs....this is very fierce evidence that the 2x2 workership is a vile body of rulers at this point and time....I wouldn't be surprised that there is a certain "greeting" much like the little "fuehrer" demanded in order not to be taken and fried in some horrible Nazi death....what is wrong with the believers of this religion? Why are they allowing these workers to go this route of dictatorship? Where is God in all of this? I don't think there is a God in all of this, but definitely a bunch of "little beastie" gods by their own estimation! It IS NO body's business who someone else may desire to communicate with someone else! This is not tolerable, and I'm hoping that the VN authority gets ahold of that information...and kicks those "little beasties" out of VN and bar any other 2x2 workers from major countries to enter in! This is horrible treatment of a people who have lived under some of the greatest restrictions of a lifetime and then their government gives them rightfulness to their own lives...yes, they may have to work 60 hrs a wk to bring home a slab of bacon....but they should be enjoying their relative freedoms without someone dictating to them who they can be friends with! I think it's time for a civil war within the 2x2 religion! I'm so ashamed of them at this point and time of the horrid treatment their dictatorship is doing to these lovely golden friends!
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 21:39:54 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 16, 2014 21:39:54 GMT -5
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but I have had many conversations - privately - with different ones. Its really surprising how many people don't believe that we are the ONLY way. Of course, no one would say it publicly, or in meeting. They are very careful whom they express their non-exclusive view to. I agree that this exclusive view is the root to so many problems. I suspect that of the under 30 crowd, few are exclusive. So time should change the openly expressed attitudes--gradually But this is what Edgar was mentioning even about the young workers, that they start out without all of this "exclusive" trappings but IF they stay in the work, then they too eventually become at least so inundated by it from their elder peers that they either push it or they don't dare speak against it. But I think if we were to really get the truth out of these young workers who stay to become older workers, the end up with so much of the exclusive spirit, that they might as well be as verbal about it as their peers. The reason I say this is because even just as a friend, you must become what the workers desire you to become and/or treat them the way that they want to be treated as the "sole emissaries of God" on earth..... Yes, the young professes are not particularly exclusive...but even out in the world the young are more easily able to accept more then one way or one thought about anything...but as far as the 2x2's are concerned, there are few young adults who stay in the fellowship that are not as exclusive in their spiritual selves as the workers that rule them.. I've noted that any of the adults past 40's that are not exclusive particularly are the friends/workers on the edge of 2x2ism and likely have been there all their lives...they are the ones who bolster up the workers' exclusive dictatorships with their worker worship! And it is worker worship when you allow a worker to be between you and God! When you assign Jesus to the human level only then you're in big trouble already...th exclusiveness of the workership will rack and ruin you!
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Vietnam
Jan 16, 2014 21:40:02 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 16, 2014 21:40:02 GMT -5
System-minded people seem insecure in their faith. Their faith system seems to be so delicate that they're paranoid about anything that might disturb the status quo. This intercepting people's communications with someone else is very frightening! This is what the dictator's of communism do or have done....people lose all their human rights because someone wants to hold them to their own expectations and beliefs....this is very fierce evidence that the 2x2 workership is a vile body of rulers at this point and time....I wouldn't be surprised that there is a certain "greeting" much like the little "fuehrer" demanded in order not to be taken and fried in some horrible Nazi death....what is wrong with the believers of this religion? Why are they allowing these workers to go this route of dictatorship? Where is God in all of this? I don't think there is a God in all of this, but definitely a bunch of "little beastie" gods by their own estimation! It IS NO body's business who someone else may desire to communicate with someone else! This is not tolerable, and I'm hoping that the VN authority gets ahold of that information...and kicks those "little beasties" out of VN and bar any other 2x2 workers from major countries to enter in! This is horrible treatment of a people who have lived under some of the greatest restrictions of a lifetime and then their government gives them rightfulness to their own lives...yes, they may have to work 60 hrs a wk to bring home a slab of bacon....but they should be enjoying their relative freedoms without someone dictating to them who they can be friends with! I think it's time for a civil war within the 2x2 religion! I'm so ashamed of them at this point and time of the horrid treatment their dictatorship is doing to these lovely golden friends! People who claim "authority" from God bring their fellow believers into bondage. Incredibly, 2x2 overseers excuse sexual immorality in their own ranks while demanding the obedience of those below them in their self-imposed hierarchy.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 8:17:59 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 17, 2014 8:17:59 GMT -5
As I had promissed, today I’m going to tell you how happened when Uncle Lyle met uncle Hoa again after a long time.
It seemed uncle Lyle displeased when seeing my friend (Ngọc) talking a lot with uncle Hoa. She knew uncle Hoa many years before, because all her parents’ family professed in the past. Except her mother passed away in the faith, all the rest in her family had stopped after liberation day. She tried to conect with us after 30 years missing, and wanted to hear the Gospel again. I asked permision to uncle Châu to let her know the time to listen to the gospel. When uncle Châu preached at her place, many friends came there with joy. After pushing uncle Châu to Cambodia, Gospel meeting was still being there, but the atmostphere was not happy as before. It seemed that she and her husband wanted to stop.They came to my house one day, telling their feeling and asking “If you tell me to stop open my house for the Gospel, I will stop immediately”. I explained these thing to uncle Chau, he gave the advice that let her the chance to hear the Gospel. Recently I heard that there was no Gospel meeting at her house any more…
Back to the meal at my house, uncle Lyle waved my friend (Ngọc) coming to him, while she was talking with uncle Hoa. (This lady couldn’t speak English and couldn’t understand either. She asked me for help).
Uncle Lyle was destroy the nice asmostphere should be in the meal instead of joy and happiness, It became heavier at that moment !... I regretted to invite him.
After leaving uncle Lyle asked uncle Hoa “May you come to my batch tomorrow morning for talking”.
Uncle Hoa went to meet uncle Lyle at his batch as he required. His staff already being there too (Colin & Peter : Canadian workers, Cường: Vietnamese).
By this chance uncle Hoa suggested some ideas that suitable for the Work of God in Viet Nam to them.
Unnoticed with what uncle Hoa suggested. Uncle Lyle asked uncle Hoa many times “Where are you standing?” “Where are you standing for suggesting your idea?”
Seeing uncle Lyle did not concern his suggestions. (Uncle Hoa advise them to work or do as the beginning workers had done, but uncle Lyle didn’t mind. It seemed that he just wanted to show his power before uncle Hoa and his staff !...)
Immediately uncle Hoa stood up and left them…
In my opinion uncle Lyle should asked himself, where were his standing? He should remember. He is in Vietnam, he is a foreigner. The flock belong to our two local workers for many years. He didn’t find the sheep, he just came more than a year !... How could he know everything belong to our country.
Few days later, uncle Lyle ordered to his staff bringing his letter to their own field reading for all friends throughout the country knowing his decision about uncle Hoa.
They don't let anyone to have another copy, even friends asked. God open a chance for me to have it. Tomorrow I will tell you how I had it, and uncle Lyle' letter as well.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 17, 2014 9:32:57 GMT -5
Nate - do you plan to translate Lyle's letter? Attachments:
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 10:14:18 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Jan 17, 2014 10:14:18 GMT -5
This intercepting people's communications with someone else is very frightening! This is what the dictator's of communism do or have done....people lose all their human rights because someone wants to hold them to their own expectations and beliefs....this is very fierce evidence that the 2x2 workership is a vile body of rulers at this point and time....I wouldn't be surprised that there is a certain "greeting" much like the little "fuehrer" demanded in order not to be taken and fried in some horrible Nazi death....what is wrong with the believers of this religion? Why are they allowing these workers to go this route of dictatorship? Where is God in all of this? I don't think there is a God in all of this, but definitely a bunch of "little beastie" gods by their own estimation! It IS NO body's business who someone else may desire to communicate with someone else! This is not tolerable, and I'm hoping that the VN authority gets ahold of that information...and kicks those "little beasties" out of VN and bar any other 2x2 workers from major countries to enter in! This is horrible treatment of a people who have lived under some of the greatest restrictions of a lifetime and then their government gives them rightfulness to their own lives...yes, they may have to work 60 hrs a wk to bring home a slab of bacon....but they should be enjoying their relative freedoms without someone dictating to them who they can be friends with! I think it's time for a civil war within the 2x2 religion! I'm so ashamed of them at this point and time of the horrid treatment their dictatorship is doing to these lovely golden friends! People who claim "authority" from God bring their fellow believers into bondage. Incredibly, 2x2 overseers excuse sexual immorality in their own ranks while demanding the obedience of those below them in their self-imposed hierarchy. Very true! This is just the evidence that at the base of it all lies nothing but evil....I thought about this in the night and I remembered that it is said in the bible "That the love of money is the 'root' of all evil." This telling.....that these rulers of the 2x2 religion are after all the money they can get.....I'd have to wonder if it might not be found out that these rulers try to accommodate the friends who appear to have lots of money! They let them be their mainstay in the 2x2 religion. I noticed in our local newspaper this a.,m. that the Vatican sent the Holy See before some kind of authority in regards to the "hiding" of the CSA amongst the priests! Kind of like that body of authority in NZ or Aussieville are looking into that very thing in those countries! I think it was a international authority that was investigating the priests and the why of their hiding the CSA perps/actions! I've looked for this news article on the 'net but haven't found it yet...it was a very interesting read....seemed like to me if one would substitute "worker" where the article said "priest" the story would have been any different. There is evidence that this authority may well indict some of the priests that were cognizant of the actions and helped to hide the perps. Something perhaps like JF and BD went through but from an multi-disciplinary group! But this treatment of the quiet and elegant VN people is sickening to my self for all I hold dear! It just goes as evidence of the great disappointment I had when I learned about certain overseers of the 2x2's wrong behaviours of their own...and this is the main reason none of them can correct a peer worker! Their wrong acts would likely come to the surface.....I guess the openness that the Canadian overseer workers are using on the VN folks is perhaps more preferable then them secretly doing negative things, but then they may be doing those as well....seems NOTHING is beyond those workers! BTW, in encouragement for the lovely VN folks, just remember that it says during the time of the Great tribulation, that God said that the time will be shortened for the faithful of the faith that Jesus's death was enough to save mankind from their sins. That simple duty or privilege therein lies our hope! The workers are not our hope nor our confidence....As the song that Cherie posted on the other website "Hold fast to what thou has obtained. Lay not thy armor down."
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 17, 2014 11:51:39 GMT -5
Nate - do you plan to translate Lyle's letter? Maybe, we can ask Mr. Vu Hien (Chau's brother) to translate the letter for us. He does a better job than I can. If he doesn't want to then I can try it later.Don't worry, my friend has translated uncle Lyle' letter for me...
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Jan 17, 2014 12:28:32 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 17, 2014 12:28:32 GMT -5
Uncle Lyle concluded his letter with this statement. The unity among workers and friends is the result of the work of God in our hearts and we should protect our hearts from any influences that bring division among us.
Exactly the unity among workers and friends is the result of the work of God in our hearts were tied together through decades with love, unity and cooperation to serve our Highest Lord.
Uncle Lyle fell into his own trap. Now I would like to answer to his letter by this statement too. We should protect our hearts from uncle Lyle's influences that bring division among us.
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Jan 17, 2014 13:10:57 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 17, 2014 13:10:57 GMT -5
Dear Friends; On February 15, 2012, Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a visit with Uncle Hoa at our residence in Ho Chi Minh City. Over the last several months, Uncle Hoa has been moving quietly among our friends and at the same time avoiding any contact with teachers. During the special season, he avoided being at any center where classes were being held. This has raised questions in the minds of several of our friends and they have been asking us about him. We felt that it was necessary for us to speak directly with Uncle Hoa so that we can give a suitable answer to those who enquire about his activities. During our visit together, we asked Uncle Hoa several times to tell us clearly what we should tell our friends regarding his relationship with us. He finally told us that he is not in agreement with the way that we are working here. We made no headway in our attempt to visit with him further on that subject and eventually he terminated our discussion abruptly and left. After careful consideration of our talk together with Uncle Hoa, we wish to make the following points clear: 1. Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in mid 2010 and has made no attempt to be reinstated. Therefore, he is not considered a part of the teacher staff in this country now. 2. Uncle Hoa has put in many years of service prior to 2010 and it is fitting for us to keep that in mind and respect him for that. We understand that many have fond memories of his fellowship, help and support during those years and it will grieve them, as it grieves us, that he has distanced himself from the teacher staff now. Anything that can be done to encourage him to communicate with and cooperate with the teachers in the areas where he visits will be greatly appreciated. 3. The door is open for Uncle Hoa to contact us at any time. We are prepared to do all that we can to help him fill a useful place among us if he desires to do so. 4. Our friends are at liberty to receive Uncle Hoa into their homes for a visit if they feel comfortable with that. We are not going to try to monitor or control that. We know that many will not feel comfortable about him visiting their home as long as he is not in hearty fellowship with the teachers in this country. We understand those feelings too, because the teacher staff is a precious, dedicated group of men and women who deserve our highest respect. The bond between teachers and students is the result of a divine work that has taken place in our hearts and we need to protect that bond from any influence that would bring division among us.
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Jan 17, 2014 13:18:30 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 17, 2014 13:18:30 GMT -5
Dear Brothers and Sisters, On Feb. 15, 2012 Colin, Peter, Cuong and I had a meeting with Uncle Hoa at our apartment ( bach) in Saigon. In the last few months, Uncle Hoa has visited friends quietly. He has tried to avoid talking to and seeing the ministry leaders. He did not attend Special Meetings. Uncle Hoa’s absences lead to a lot of brothers and sister raising questions about his sudden changes. It was necessary for us to talk directly to Uncle Hoa in order to provide answers for those who asked about Uncle Hoa’s absence. So we had arranged a meeting during which we asked Uncle Hoa about how he felt about the relationship between us. Uncle Hoa had stated that he did not agree with the way we managed the ministry in this country. We could not talk more to him about this issue. In the end, he decided to leave us. After the meeting, we would like to brief a few things and make known to all of you: 1- Uncle Hoa voluntarily left the work in the middle of 2010 with no intention of coming back. Thus, he is not considered to have any part in the work in this country.
2- We acknowledge that Uncle Hoa was in the ministry for many years prior to 2010. We are very thankful for all his years of service and give him our respect. We also understand that a lot of brothers and sisters have shared kind memories with him. He has been helpful and supportive in the past. It was hurtful for all of us to see him leave. We will appreciate any effort that can encourage him to keep in touch and be cooperative with the workers in the fields that he visits. 3- Uncle Hoa can keep in touch with us whenever he is ready. The door is always open for him. If he wishes, we are ready to do anything in our ability to help him to have a useful place. 4- All brothers and sisters should feel free to talk to Uncle Hoa, if comfortable doing so. We don’t try to police or intervene with personal acquaintances. Though we know certain brothers and sisters do not feel comfortable talking to him because he has separated himself from us and does not have close fellowship with the workers in this country. We want to stress one thing and make it clear: the workers are men and women who devote their lives for the work. They deserve our utmost respect. The unity among workers and friends is the result of the work of God in our hearts and we should protect our hearts from any influences that bring division among us. I am trying not to see this in a negative light, but I have utterly failed. The statement that the workers deserve our utmost respect is bogus. They have to earn that respect just like anyone else in this world. I have been reading this thread and not commenting much, but this last letter brings back visions of the letter sent in the Alberta fiasco. Respect us even if we are wrong. This type of mindset is very dangerous and is why some people feel the 2x2's are a cult. Putting humans in that kind of status is exactly what Jim Jones did with his bunch. I did a paper on them many years ago for a behavioral psych class so I am quite familiar with what he did, how he groomed them and then ultimately led them to their deaths. I don't see the 2x2 ministry as quite that extreme, but there are some very disturbing parallels.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 15:21:36 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 15:21:36 GMT -5
My understanding of Alberta situation is that the elders and the friends went the WRONG way of questioning the leadership their ways of doing thing (Alberta Incorporation, William Irvine, and other issues, etc) Set up taping their conversation without telling the workers about it by provoking them with challenging questions. With the purpose of Exposing Jim K. tape on the Internet. The Church elders and the friends began to take side with one another against the workers, then the excommunication began....
Vietnam situation is different! To gain a better control and leadership in VN from Chau and Hoa the Canadians came up with stories (selling the Chau's brother house, and other things which I can't mention on here, to get rid of their presence in the country). This is totally a WRONG! way of showing appreciation to Chau and Hoa's faithfulness over 50 yrs of hard work, hardship in serving the Lord and His people with all the energy, strength they have. In protest, about 100 golden friends left or excommunicated because they saw the Unfairness the Canadian workers mistreating Chau and Hoa, their beloved true shepherds. Chau is NOT getting any younger, I hope they don't sent him to another place/country where they have no friends to care for him. It's good to see the golden friends are taken care of Hoa in his old age. I believe both Chau and Hoa want to die while they are in the work.
Let the Canadian workers run the show and see what kind of progress they're making in VN among the Vietnamese people and the churches over there.
I think you are re-writing history in Alberta. The problems that were encountered by the friends in Alberta were repeatedly put before the workers and overseers behind the scenes in letters and meetings.....to little avail. This went on for several years. Tensions only rose really high when people started getting excommunicated and taping started as a defence to possible excommunication. The other thing that is almost identical to Alberta is where Lyle asked Hoa repeatedly "where do you stand?" That is what the AB ministry group did too, as they asked the question: "do you support the workers in everything they do?" In both cases, the purpose was to force people to make a statement that would allow the workers to say "they decided to quit on their own". Not as many left either in Alberta as compared to VN. If Alberta friends stopped in the meeting in the same proportion as in VN, that would have meant about 1500 friends leaving. It would be the equivalent of more than 20,000 friends leaving in the US. Do you think it was right for that many people to stay in the meetings in Alberta or would it have been better for 1500 friends to leave which is similar to what happened in VN?
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 15:35:31 GMT -5
Post by snow on Jan 17, 2014 15:35:31 GMT -5
My understanding of Alberta situation is that the elders and the friends went the WRONG way of questioning the leadership their ways of doing thing (Alberta Incorporation, William Irvine, and other issues, etc) Set up taping their conversation without telling the workers about it by provoking them with challenging questions. With the purpose of Exposing Jim K. tape on the Internet. The Church elders and the friends began to take side with one another against the workers, then the excommunication began....
Vietnam situation is different! To gain a better control and leadership in VN from Chau and Hoa the Canadians came up with stories (selling the Chau's brother house, and other things which I can't mention on here, to get rid of their presence in the country). This is totally a WRONG! way of showing appreciation to Chau and Hoa's faithfulness over 50 yrs of hard work, hardship in serving the Lord and His people with all the energy, strength they have. In protest, about 100 golden friends left or excommunicated because they saw the Unfairness the Canadian workers mistreating Chau and Hoa, their beloved true shepherds. Chau is NOT getting any younger, I hope they don't sent him to another place/country where they have no friends to care for him. It's good to see the golden friends are taken care of Hoa in his old age. I believe both Chau and Hoa want to die while they are in the work.
Let the Canadian workers run the show and see what kind of progress they're making in VN among the Vietnamese people and the churches over there.
It's the same mindset. The workers think that they can do no wrong and if anyone questions them they are wrong. That is a dictatorship mindset. It is a dangerous one when they through in the belief that they are guided by the Holy Spirit and God himself. They have groomed the B&R's to believe that their word is God's word. That means they can get the very devote to do just about anything, believe just about anything whether it is right or not. If it's done by a worker, it's okay. Those who have decided to buy into the mindset that their salvation is contingent upon being in the Truth and believing and supporting the workers in everything they do and say, are just as bad off as those who drank the koolaide in Jonestown. It is that mentality that is so dangerous. When the people of Alberta turned away from friends they had known all their lives because the workers told them to, that shows the 'do not question' mindset of many of them. After what happened in Alberta I cannot even fathom how any of the friends are still in the truth backing those workers. But they are and they are doing what they've been told. Very very scary.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 15:50:11 GMT -5
I think you are re-writing history in Alberta. The problems that were encountered by the friends in Alberta were repeatedly put before the workers and overseers behind the scenes in letters and meetings.....to little avail. This went on for several years. Tensions only rose really high when people started getting excommunicated and taping started as a defence to possible excommunication. Not as many left either in Alberta as compared to VN. If Alberta friends stopped in the meeting in the same proportion as in VN, that would have meant about 1500 friends leaving. It would be the equivalent of more than 20,000 friends leaving in the US. Do you think it was right for that many people to stay in the meetings in Alberta or would it have been better for 1500 friends to leave which is similar to what happened in VN? The workers didn't start the Mess in Alberta. The workers STARTED the MESS in Vietnam.The workers started the mess in Alberta. It began with a lying worker and all concerns raised after that were regarding actions of the workers. I think you need to read the story again.
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 16:06:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2014 16:06:23 GMT -5
The workers started the mess in Alberta. It began with a lying worker and all concerns raised after that were regarding actions of the workers. I think you need to read the story again. It takes two to tango. The spirits of both sides were not good.Does that apply for VN?
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 16:36:05 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2014 16:36:05 GMT -5
Here's how the ministry responds to those who question: However, Dale Shultz had nice things to say about the Olsons: Here's how the ministry tests the loyalty of the staff: Here's how the ministry deals with workers who question the overseer: www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_book/28wmibook.php
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 17, 2014 16:49:16 GMT -5
Minh Thanh: Please pass on my compliments your friend who translated this letter. S/he did an extremely good job! I really appreciate it!
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Vietnam
Jan 17, 2014 16:54:36 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 17, 2014 16:54:36 GMT -5
The workers started the mess in Alberta. It began with a lying worker and all concerns raised after that were regarding actions of the workers. I think you need to read the story again. It takes two to tango. The spirits of both sides were not good.I suppose it could be said that the friends were upset with the workers:
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