Vietnam

[CherieKropp]

Might need to take into consideration the VN customs parents use for naming their children in VN.

From Wiki:  The given name is the primary form of address for Vietnamese. It is chosen by parents and usually has a literal meaning in the Vietnamese language. Names often represent beauty, such as bird or flower names, or attributes and characteristics that the parents want in their child, such as modesty (Khiêm).

Info about Vietnamese personal names

BTW:  Hoan and Minh Thanh asked the workers to name their children, and their names have special meanings.

The family name, positioned first, is passed on by the father to his children. It is estimated that there are around one hundred family names in common use, although some are far more common than others. The name Nguyễn is estimated to be used by almost 40% of the Vietnamese population. The top three names are so popular because people tended to take the family name of kings, to show their loyalty. Over many generations, the family names became permanent.

The most common family names [surname] among the Vietnamese are the following (the Chinese characters following each name are Hán-Nôm). Added together these 14 names account for 90% of the people.

Distribution of Vietnamese family names:

Nguyễn 阮 (38%)
Trần 陳 (11%)
Lê 黎 (9.5%)
Phạm 范 (7.1%)
Huỳnh/Hoàng 黃 (5.1%)
Phan 潘 (4.5%)
Vũ/Võ 武 (3.9%)
Đặng 鄧(2.1%)
Bùi 裴 (2%)
Đỗ 杜 (1.4%)
Hồ 胡 (1.3%)
Ngô 吳 (1.3%)
Dương 楊 (1%)
Lý 李 (0.5%)

Middle name

Most Vietnamese have one middle name, but it is quite possible to have two or more, or even no middle names at all.

In the past, the middle name was selected by parents from a fairly narrow range of options. Almost all women had Thị (氏) as their middle name, and many men had Văn (文). More recently, a broader range of names have been used, and people named Thị sometimes omit their middle name.

Thị is by far the most common female middle name. This word expresses possession; for example, "Trần Thị Mai Loan" is a person who has the given name of "Mai Loan" and the surname "Trần", and the combination "Trần Thị" means "A female person belonging to the Trần family". The combination is similar to western surname formation like "Van" in "Van Helsing", "Mac" in "MacCartney" etc. Male middle names include Văn (文), Hữu (友), Đức (德), Thành (誠), Công (公), Quang (光) and many others.

The middle name can have three usages:

To indicate a person's generation — brothers and sisters share the same middle name, which distinguish them from the generation before them and the generation after them (see generation name).
To separate branches of a big family. For example, "Nguyễn Hữu", "Nguyễn Sinh", "Trần Lâm". However, this usage is still controversial. Some people consider them to be dual family names, not family name + middle name. Some families may, however, set up arbitrary rules about giving a different middle name to each generation.
To indicate a person's position in the family, also known as birth order. This usage is less common than others.

However, nowadays most middle names do not have those usages. They can either have a meaning or just be there to make the full names more euphonious.
Given name

In most cases, formally, the middle name is actually a part of the given name. For example, the name "Đinh Quang Dũng" is separated into the surname "Đinh" and the given name "Quang Dũng". In a normal name list, these two parts of the full name are put in two different columns. However, in daily conversation, the last word in a given name with a title before it is used to address a person, for example "Ông Dũng", "Anh Dũng", etc. where "Ông" and "Anh" are words to address the person which depend on age, social position, etc.

The given name is the primary form of address for Vietnamese. It is chosen by parents and usually has a literal meaning in the Vietnamese language. Names often represent beauty, such as bird or flower names, or attributes and characteristics that the parents want in their child, such as modesty (Khiêm).

Typically, Vietnamese will be addressed with their given name, even in formal situations, although an honorific equivalent to "Mr.", "Mrs.", etc. will be added when necessary.

Example:  Nguyễn Tấn Dũng is the current Prime Minister of Vietnam. Nguyễn is his family name, Tấn is his middle name, and Dũng is his given name. In formal usage, he is referred to by his given name ("Mr. Dũng"), not by his family name ("Mr. Nguyễn").

Chào is a term that can be used to greet someone at any time.
Ông is the term to address elderly men (aged around 50). Bà is the term to address elderly ladies (aged around 45).

A: Chào anh! (嘲英！)
B: Chào chị! (嘲姊！)

Anh is a term to address older men, while chị is to address older women.

A: Chào cụ ạ! (嘲俱?！)
B: Chào em! (嘲俺！)

Cụ is a term to call a very old person.
em is a term to call a child, or a younger person.

A: Chào William! (嘲 William！)
B: Vâng, chào Nam! (?，嘲南！)

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2014 15:19:22 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my Vietnamese name given by my parents: Ho Ngoc An Means The Pond of hidden Pearl. My American name Nathan has my Vietnamese first name An at the end. These Vietnamese workers could change their American names if they don't like it or ask to keep their simple first native names.

If they feel they must obey the overseer and be in "unity" with the other workers, no they can't change their names.

I suspect that part of the name changing is that their names can be used freely on lists and in correspondence so the authorities won't know who they are. There seems to be a lot of fear of the authorities there.

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2014 15:32:36 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Jan 13, 2014 15:25:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

If they feel they must obey the overseer and be in "unity" with the other workers, no they can't change their names.

I suspect that part of the name changing is that their names can be used freely on lists and in correspondence so the authorities won't know who they are. There seems to be a lot of fear of the authorities there.

I forgot we are dealing with the Vietnamese gov't. Yes, I believe you are correct because of the authorities over there... but they know all about them already. They have EYES, and EARS all over the places. They are very good in what they are doing. I wouldn't be surprised they have their own people infiltrated within the fellowship monitoring the group.

I would expect that the US and other governments have eyes and ears in the meetings too, including people who are "friends".

VN is off the international watch list for religious persecution so one would think that there is no need to hide. I suppose the local workers could get in trouble for being directed in the work by illegal foreign residents.

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 12, 2014 23:58:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 12, 2014 23:34:01 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

At first these strangers have contacted friends and they have the need to listen to the gospel. The friends invited uncle Hoa to come to preach. In spite of long distances, through mountains, valley, forests, rivers he overcomes and rides on simple motorbike to get them. Impelled by love, he seeks the lost sheep.

Workers in the West were like that 100 years ago.

The friends used to share their faith with friends, neighbors and relatives.

I don't feel confident that new converts would be treated properly, so I'd be reluctant to recommend today's ministry to anyone.

Some workers do not want the friends doing any kind of contact....if the workers have time they will see a person that has expressed and interest to one of the friends. I know this because a friend of mine and another male friend, them both elders of the meeting there, took a native Indian man with them to gospel mtgs. because he was wanting to hear about Jesus! He went with them about 3 or 4 times and finally said that it was a waste of his time because those 2 preachers were NOT preaching about Jesus! This man was old enough he would have remembered those religious revivals that would come around the countryside in the summer time....Well, both the elders thought it might help to have abible study with him, so they asked the worker who was the overseer of that state if it would be alright for them to have bible studies with the Indian....the overseer said a definite "NO"! That pair of workers had had mtgs. off and on in that area for 2 different between conv. seasons! They had one lady profess and her live in boy friend went to conv. that year and he professed, so they count him as their convert! BUT in the end of those 2 or 3 years these workers lost several possible converts by not paying heed and preaching the gospel message. Plus they lost 2 ladies at first, then there was both elders and one elder's wife and son and wife and children....so netting 2 new converts and losing about 9 in one mtg. really isn't very good odds.

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 13, 2014 11:26:29 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

Jan 13, 2014 11:19:35 GMT -5 NathanB said:

For the golden friends and Hoa to enjoy their golden days they must let Chau be in charge again like in the past. All of the foreigner workers MUST leave VN. They can enter back in VN as visitors. This way, it gives the natives friends and workers to work things out among themselves, and to correct some of the past, hard feelings, misunderstanding, so they could move on with the gospel. The last 3 yrs problems have hindered the gospel progress in VN.

And, THAT, Nathan, I doubt will EVER happen on its own.

Dennis, I feel the same...btw, a small drop of hope here...IF enough of us exes keep saying we doubt that the Canadian workers would be so helpful, then maybe they'll do it just to show us that they do such things! Adverse psychology, eh?

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 13, 2014 15:25:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 13, 2014 15:19:22 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my Vietnamese name given by my parents: Ho Ngoc An Means The Pond of hidden Pearl. My American name Nathan has my Vietnamese first name An at the end. These Vietnamese workers could change their American names if they don't like it or ask to keep their simple first native names.

If they feel they must obey the overseer and be in "unity" with the other workers, no they can't change their names.

I suspect that part of the name changing is that their names can be used freely on lists and in correspondence so the authorities won't know who they are. There seems to be a lot of fear of the authorities there.

Foolish workers may find out just what that fear is for! The way the native workers have been treated is a shame and a sham. When they tried to take away the authorities' okay for Uncle Chau as leader of this said sect of religion, they should have never messed with Uncle Chau....I'm praying he doesn't suffer for the Canadian foolish workers.....and I hope that those worker get kicked out of the country with their names to never renew their visas! The things that they've done to separate and punish the Vietnames friends AND workers is NOT of God and it shows these workers have lost their GOD!

[Deleted]

Jan 13, 2014 17:39:49 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Jan 13, 2014 15:25:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

If they feel they must obey the overseer and be in "unity" with the other workers, no they can't change their names.

I suspect that part of the name changing is that their names can be used freely on lists and in correspondence so the authorities won't know who they are. There seems to be a lot of fear of the authorities there.

Foolish workers may find out just what that fear is for! The way the native workers have been treated is a shame and a sham. When they tried to take away the authorities' okay for Uncle Chau as leader of this said sect of religion, they should have never messed with Uncle Chau....I'm praying he doesn't suffer for the Canadian foolish workers.....and I hope that those worker get kicked out of the country with their names to never renew their visas! The things that they've done to separate and punish the Vietnames friends AND workers is NOT of God and it shows these workers have lost their GOD!

Their treatment of Chau and others will be irrelevant with regard to any decision on the visas. The visa issue will be all about whether or not the stated purpose for being in the country matches the actual activity.

[minhthanh]

Jan 13, 2014 17:23:05 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Jan 12, 2014 23:58:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

Workers in the West were like that 100 years ago.

The friends used to share their faith with friends, neighbors and relatives.

I don't feel confident that new converts would be treated properly, so I'd be reluctant to recommend today's ministry to anyone.

Some workers do not want the friends doing any kind of contact....if the workers have time they will see a person that has expressed and interest to one of the friends. I know this because a friend of mine and another male friend, them both elders of the meeting there, took a native Indian man with them to gospel mtgs. because he was wanting to hear about Jesus! He went with them about 3 or 4 times and finally said that it was a waste of his time because those 2 preachers were NOT preaching about Jesus! This man was old enough he would have remembered those religious revivals that would come around the countryside in the summer time....Well, both the elders thought it might help to have abible study with him, so they asked the worker who was the overseer of that state if it would be alright for them to have bible studies with the Indian....the overseer said a definite "NO"! That pair of workers had had mtgs. off and on in that area for 2 different between conv. seasons! They had one lady profess and her live in boy friend went to conv. that year and he professed, so they count him as their convert! BUT in the end of those 2 or 3 years these workers lost several possible converts by not paying heed and preaching the gospel message. Plus they lost 2 ladies at first, then there was both elders and one elder's wife and son and wife and children....so netting 2 new converts and losing about 9 in one mtg. really isn't very good odds.

The same in VN...
We weren't permitted to tell THE TRUTH or BIBLE to strange people, even they are very friendly with us. Just only bring them to the workers.
We also weren't permitted to study Bible together with  friends too, only the workers in the field preach for friends or strange people.
One ex.elder said. Now a day the worker just stay in a place waiting the friends bringing losing souls for them to preach. (Because they aren't permitted to be out of their field).

[Deleted]

Updated information

[quizzer]

Jan 13, 2014 17:23:05 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Jan 12, 2014 23:58:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

Workers in the West were like that 100 years ago.

The friends used to share their faith with friends, neighbors and relatives.

I don't feel confident that new converts would be treated properly, so I'd be reluctant to recommend today's ministry to anyone.

Some workers do not want the friends doing any kind of contact....if the workers have time they will see a person that has expressed and interest to one of the friends. I know this because a friend of mine and another male friend, them both elders of the meeting there, took a native Indian man with them to gospel mtgs. because he was wanting to hear about Jesus! He went with them about 3 or 4 times and finally said that it was a waste of his time because those 2 preachers were NOT preaching about Jesus! This man was old enough he would have remembered those religious revivals that would come around the countryside in the summer time....Well, both the elders thought it might help to have abible study with him, so they asked the worker who was the overseer of that state if it would be alright for them to have bible studies with the Indian....the overseer said a definite "NO"! That pair of workers had had mtgs. off and on in that area for 2 different between conv. seasons! They had one lady profess and her live in boy friend went to conv. that year and he professed, so they count him as their convert! BUT in the end of those 2 or 3 years these workers lost several possible converts by not paying heed and preaching the gospel message. Plus they lost 2 ladies at first, then there was both elders and one elder's wife and son and wife and children....so netting 2 new converts and losing about 9 in one mtg. really isn't very good odds.

Something similar happened a couple of years ago in my area. We had gospel meetings for a lady who was interested in the meetings. The brother workers would pick her up and drive her to gospel meetings. She would be surrounded by folks from another meeting after the gospel meeting, so it was tough to even shake her hand.

We asked the workers if we could pick her up for the Sunday morning meeting. It was on the way for us, and the meeting was about 10 minutes away. We were told not to do so, because she "wasn't ready." Seems like for her to be "ready," she'd need to stop wearing pants to meeting and move closer to the friends in another meeting.

For some reason, we haven't seen her in a gospel meeting since then.

[quizzer]

Jan 13, 2014 13:54:00 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Might need to take into consideration the VN customs parents use for naming their children in VN.

From Wiki:  The given name is the primary form of address for Vietnamese. It is chosen by parents and usually has a literal meaning in the Vietnamese language. Names often represent beauty, such as bird or flower names, or attributes and characteristics that the parents want in their child, such as modesty (Khiêm).

My best friend was Vietnamese, and this was the naming strategy her mom had for her nine children. Each child was given a name for a picture of a garden. One was a flower, one was for the sky, one was for a tree - I think she ran out of children before she could complete the picture, but it was a beautiful idea.

[fixit]

Jan 14, 2014 11:22:35 GMT -5 quizzer said:

We had gospel meetings for a lady who was interested in the meetings. The brother workers would pick her up and drive her to gospel meetings. She would be surrounded by folks from another meeting after the gospel meeting, so it was tough to even shake her hand.

We asked the workers if we could pick her up for the Sunday morning meeting. It was on the way for us, and the meeting was about 10 minutes away. We were told not to do so, because she "wasn't ready." Seems like for her to be "ready," she'd need to stop wearing pants to meeting and move closer to the friends in another meeting.

For some reason, we haven't seen her in a gospel meeting since then.

"Not ready" usually means "haven't acknowledged the ministry as God's only representatives on earth and submitted to our authority".

[Deleted]

Jan 14, 2014 12:36:44 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 14, 2014 11:22:35 GMT -5 quizzer said:

We had gospel meetings for a lady who was interested in the meetings. The brother workers would pick her up and drive her to gospel meetings. She would be surrounded by folks from another meeting after the gospel meeting, so it was tough to even shake her hand.

We asked the workers if we could pick her up for the Sunday morning meeting. It was on the way for us, and the meeting was about 10 minutes away. We were told not to do so, because she "wasn't ready." Seems like for her to be "ready," she'd need to stop wearing pants to meeting and move closer to the friends in another meeting.

For some reason, we haven't seen her in a gospel meeting since then.

"Not ready" usually means "haven't acknowledged the ministry as God's only representatives on earth and submitted to our authority".

I think that's what it means. Switching from pants to dresses is just a sign of the Spirit working in them.

[fixit]

Jan 14, 2014 13:00:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 14, 2014 12:36:44 GMT -5 fixit said:

"Not ready" usually means "haven't acknowledged the ministry as God's only representatives on earth and submitted to our authority".

I think that's what it means. Switching from pants to dresses is just a sign of the Spirit working in them.

Switching from pants to dresses is a sign of conformity to the tribe.

Here's the signs of the Spirit working:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

These signs seem to be lacking in the foreign workers in Vietnam.

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 13, 2014 18:44:39 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 13, 2014 17:39:49 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Foolish workers may find out just what that fear is for! The way the native workers have been treated is a shame and a sham. When they tried to take away the authorities' okay for Uncle Chau as leader of this said sect of religion, they should have never messed with Uncle Chau....I'm praying he doesn't suffer for the Canadian foolish workers.....and I hope that those worker get kicked out of the country with their names to never renew their visas! The things that they've done to separate and punish the Vietnames friends AND workers is NOT of God and it shows these workers have lost their GOD!

Their treatment of Chau and others will be irrelevant with regard to any decision on the visas. The visa issue will be all about whether or not the stated purpose for being in the country matches the actual activity.

But why wouldn't the booting out of Chau as the Authorities recognized leader of the 2x2 fellowship in VN by the Canadian overseers create such an angst in the authorities' minds that it will instigate a much larger investigation then just checking the activiites of foreign folks according to their "visas"?

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 14, 2014 13:06:59 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 14, 2014 13:00:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I think that's what it means. Switching from pants to dresses is just a sign of the Spirit working in them.

Switching from pants to dresses is a sign of conformity to the tribe.

Here's the signs of the Spirit working:

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

These signs seem to be lacking in the foreign workers in Vietnam.

I feel that today's workers are not as cognizant of what the bible says about much of anything. We have to remember today's workers were brought up by the workers of a couple generations ago to present day where the sermons most noted were where the leading workers preached about hair, clothes, no education, the every appearance issues, etc.....not about the bible contents as they should have been...so they're not only "parroting" what the older workers preached about, but they're even "enlarging" on them! And the arrogant mindset that they are the boss and everybody MUST tow to their dictates.....this is related to what the Pope was concerned about their schooling of future priests and making them "Little beasties" instead of humble priests!

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 14, 2014 12:36:44 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 14, 2014 11:22:35 GMT -5 quizzer said:

We had gospel meetings for a lady who was interested in the meetings. The brother workers would pick her up and drive her to gospel meetings. She would be surrounded by folks from another meeting after the gospel meeting, so it was tough to even shake her hand.

We asked the workers if we could pick her up for the Sunday morning meeting. It was on the way for us, and the meeting was about 10 minutes away. We were told not to do so, because she "wasn't ready." Seems like for her to be "ready," she'd need to stop wearing pants to meeting and move closer to the friends in another meeting.

For some reason, we haven't seen her in a gospel meeting since then.

"Not ready" usually means "haven't acknowledged the ministry as God's only representatives on earth and submitted to our authority".

I didn't know for a long time what the workers meant when they'd say a possible convert "wasn't ready"...until about 3=4 yrs. ago. I learned that yes, the workers did not mean the convert had trouble understanding the gospel of Jesus Christ, but actually the convert was not agreeing that the workers were the only true ministry and that the mtgs. in the home was the only true way of worshipping!

I think there's going to be some number of workers that are going to have to answer for preaching a gospel of Jesus Christ PLUS! I wouldn't like to be in that bunch!So many lost souls who should have been given the gospel of Jesus Christ and let them assimilate that into their lives without adding all of this 2x2 trap business of the only true way, the only true 2x2 itinerant ministers and the only true mtgs. in the home!

I really would love for one of these workers who feel so great as to being one of the only true ministry, what s(he) things happened to all of the millions of people in America alone that had NO opportunity to know anything about the 2x2 ministry and home mtgs. They've willingly put millions of people into a lost eternity...where is that obeying the first 2 commandments? Loving the neighbor as thyself.

[CherieKropp]

Jan 14, 2014 13:00:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 14, 2014 12:36:44 GMT -5 fixit said:

"Not ready" usually means "haven't acknowledged the ministry as God's only representatives on earth and submitted to our authority".

I think that's what it means. Switching from pants to dresses is just a sign of the Spirit working in them.

Also, a good sign is when a woman grows her hair longer and puts it up while attending gospel meetings.  If she shoudl get a much shorter haircut--that is definitely a "not ready" sign.

[Deleted]

Is there another doctrine with so shallow moral principle?

[CherieKropp]

I just happened to run across this scripture.

Is this possibly the precedent used by the 2x2 church regarding Workers being assigned to specific fields to preach?

According to Paul, James, Peter and John in Jerusalem accepted Paul's calling from the Lord to the Gentiles (specifically those not circumcised) as of equal authority as Peter's to the Jews (specifically those circumcised).

Galatians 2:7-9 (KJV)

7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

[quizzer]

Jan 14, 2014 16:41:34 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Jan 14, 2014 13:00:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I think that's what it means. Switching from pants to dresses is just a sign of the Spirit working in them.

Also, a good sign is when a woman grows her hair longer and puts it up while attending gospel meetings.  If she shoudl get a much shorter haircut--that is definitely a "not ready" sign.

The house-moving was new, though. I think the thought was that, if the newbie was around hearty 2x2 souls, they would be more "encouraged" to conform. (Could be wrong, but I also think that "encouraging" is about someone being happy to conform to the 2x2 lifestyle.)

[fixit]

Jan 15, 2014 14:16:25 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Most of the problems happened in VN began with Darrel T. when he went the wrong way of eliminating Chau and Hoa from the work, so he could have a total control, as the new overseer. It has caused many headaches, confusion, chaos, divisions among the workers and the friends the last 4 yrs. Even Darrel has been removed from VN but it has taken the NEW overseer too long to solve many of the past mistakes. At least they had reinstated Chau back in the work! It's a good step toward healing, I hope they will let Chau and Hoa help them to correct the mistakes of the past, heals the wounded, erase all hard feelings, so all can be whole again like the golden days... Love, care for one another as one BIG family.

Removing Darrel is not enough.

They need to apologise for Darrel's behavior.

Perhaps more importantly, they need to relinquish their controlling spirit.

[sharingtheriches]

"Perhaps more importantly, they need to relinquish their controlling spirit."

And get out of there as in getting out of Dodge!

[minhthanh]

After the special meeting in the midle of year 2010 Uncle Hoa decided to leave.

He was going to visit friends and preach the Gospel to the lost around the country. He didn’t take part in any conventions or special meetings.

On February 2012, there is a Philippine ex.worker visit our country, his name is Ray.

He was a very lovely and Godly brother at the first time he visit Vietnam while he was still in the work. He was very familiar with my family. My parents considered him as their son, because he is the same age as my passing-away brother, and I was close to him as my younger brother, too.

He stopped in the work because his illness, we were happy to see him again.

I connect for Ray phone to Cambodia for talking with uncle Châu at my home.

Then Ray wanted to meet uncle Hoa too. He knew for sure that I know where was uncle Hoa.

I phoned to uncle Hoa very often, while he was on his way to visit friends here and there.

Luckily, this time uncle Hoa was in SongRay, about 110 Km far from Saigon. I invited uncle Hoa back to Saigon to have a meal with Ray, because Ray wanted to meet him.

Then we arranged a meal for both of them, and one of my very close friend. who was listening to the Gospel.

Ray persuated me to invite Uncle Lyle and Colin as well. Although I didn’t want to invite them, but Ray explained that because he stayed at their place, so it looked hard for him to come to my home alone (my sister invited all of them !..). At last I had to agree with him to invite uncle Lyle and Colin.

I hadn’t informed to uncle Hoa that Ray wanted me to invite uncle Lyle & Colin as well.

Tomorrow I will tell you how they meet together at my house after a long… long time.

[Deleted]

There has been enormous concern for the folks in Vietnam because of the utterly shameful behavior of North American 2x2 leadership that has taken over control there. An unabashed hunger for power that has left a trail of pain and sorrow in folks that are only anxious to serve the Christian spirit. To make it easier to find and access information on the subject - accounts written by some of the folks directly involved - I have registered a domain name to come directly to this information.

www.2x2vietnam.info/

[Deleted]

Yes Nathan I have enough experience with 2x2ism to know that there are many workers that, at least to start with, are able to resist some of the ugliest tendencies of 2x2 doctrine. For instance I remember years as companion with Dale Shultz when he wasn't victim to the ugly corruption that is evident today in Vietnam. This ugliness that has been made evident is not in many workers when they start out --- but the doctine itself encourages this kind of thing, so few manage to keep the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love .. if they allow 2x2ism to work in their lives.

This is why 2x2ism is so dangerous as a homemade doctrine. I think of the enormous corruptive influence that 2x2ism has had on a number of close friends to me -- One obvious one is Dale Shultz the other is Willis Propp.

It is a sick doctrine that forces its followers to self-righeously contend their moral superiority over every other doctrine on the face of the earth. No wonder it turns into such corruption.

[fixit]

Jan 16, 2014 12:07:28 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Yes Nathan I have enough experience with 2x2ism to know that there are many workers that, at least to start with, are able to resist some of the ugliest tendencies of 2x2 doctrine. For instance I remember years as companion with Dale Shultz when he wasn't victim to the ugly corruption that is evident today in Vietnam. This ugliness that has been made evident is not in many workers when they start out --- but the doctine itself encourages this kind of thing, so few manage to keep the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love .. if they allow 2x2ism to work in their lives.

This is why 2x2ism is so dangerous as a homemade doctrine. I think of the enormous corruptive influence that 2x2ism has had on a number of close friends to me -- One obvious one is Dale Shultz the other is Willis Propp.

It is a sick doctrine that forces its followers to self-righeously contend their moral superiority over every other doctrine on the face of the earth. No wonder it turns into such corruption.

I hear what you're saying Edgar, and largely agree but I'm not sure that "2x2ism" is the best descriptor for the root cause of the problem.

I think you'd find that any exclusive and hierarchical church would produce similar results, so its probably more accurate to say that "exclusivism" combined with "authoritarianism" are what destroys "the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love..." that you refer to.

Matthew 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[Deleted]

Jan 16, 2014 13:46:23 GMT -5 fixit said:

I hear what you're saying Edgar, and largely agree but I'm not sure that "2x2ism" is the best descriptor for the root cause of the problem.

I think you'd find that any exclusive and hierarchical church would produce similar results, so its probably more accurate to say that "exclusivism" combined with "authoritarianism" are what destroys "the beautiful Christian spirit of meekness, and compassion and love..." that you refer to.

I agree, that root evil in 2x2ism is exclusivism (Everyone else on the earth is less righteous than us!!!)... But I think that anyone closely associated with 2x2ism understands full well that exclusivism IS 2x2ism. They will compromise and adjust on pretty much every other core doctrinal principle .. but subtract exclusivism from 2x2 doctrine, and 2x2ism will vanish completely. No one can even dare suggest that 'the work' doesn't exclusively represent God, or they will be rejected from the group completely - There are hundreds examples of this -- and nothing to suggest that things are changing. (just check the basics of this thread!!)