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Post by minhthanh on Jan 8, 2014 3:29:22 GMT -5
MT, can you explain in more detail the meaning of the phrase " lao khổ "? Does it mean something like "suffering in labour" more literally? I understand the word "khổ" is used in Buddhism regarding suffering. "suffering in labour" That's all. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Jan 8, 2014 4:15:52 GMT -5
MT, I think you are wise to have a foot in each camp. I think your wonderful spirit will help change and maybe return to the Golden Years. At least you were able to enjoy those golden years. I don't think we have really had golden years in USA in my 65 years. Maybe a nicer time for my first 10 years, but then things changed.
Keep strong, and remember that Abraham claimed to be Sarah's brother to escape wrath of the king, so you are doing nothing wrong.....Dale/Laz
Please do not ever confuse me with Dale Shultz or Dale Boors.....
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 8, 2014 7:04:44 GMT -5
MT, can you explain in more detail the meaning of the phrase " lao khổ "? Does it mean something like "suffering in labour" more literally? I understand the word "khổ" is used in Buddhism regarding suffering. " Lao khổ " means the worker use all his/her effort to seek the lost sheep where ever they are, live a model life to show Christ through their life ... "Lao sướng" this word isn't in Vietnamese dictionary, Darrel coins it to emphasize that the young folk go to the field, they will be sure to have an easy life as he is. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 9:51:01 GMT -5
Minh Thanh I absolutely don't want to minimize the frustration and pain that you are going through at the moment -- Yet time might prove that these days are also 'golden days' for you and those around you.
Now that our perspective has settled since the time we left 2x2ism we look back on those events as part of the wondrous love and mercy of God.--- somewhat like the exit from Egypt and the Red Sea crossing for the children of Israel. Although we didn't choose the experience -- even combated it at the time -- It has opened up a life for us far surpassing what 2x2ism could give .. (although we thought 2x2ism was wonderful while we were in it!).
It helps us to understand Jesus words when he said Blessed are ye when men shall speak ill of you and persecute you for my sake, for ye shall inherit the kingdom. It is a privilege to be able to stand for the truth -- even if we must do it alone.
Many things we hardly understand at the time -- but time will help us see the hand of God in it all.
One thing I know for sure, is that your involvement on this list has been wonderful for me -- Just to see the 'precious gold' as we have seen it in you folks spirit and and attitude. We think of you and wish you the very best.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 10:58:44 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure is that your involvement on this list, has been wonderful for me -- just to see the 'precious gold' as we have seen it in you folks spirit and and attitude. We think of you and wish you the very best.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 15:11:27 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure is that your involvement on this list, has been wonderful for me -- just to see the 'precious gold' as we have seen it in you folks spirit and and attitude. We think of you and wish you the very best.
Romans 8:28 in action! I've been touched by the kind spirit of these dear folks. |
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Post by minhthanh on Jan 9, 2014 12:18:20 GMT -5
Very well put, Edgar, and for what it may be worth to those lovely folks, I agree completely.
Romans 8:28 in action! I've been touched by the kind spirit of these dear folks. Thank you Edgar, uncle Dennis, Hberry and all friends in this board. When the workers, are trying to excommunicate us, and warn that we will lost the global fellowship. Then God has given us the real fellowship all over the world with love and understanding, encouraging us to follow Jesus and worship God. Love and thanks from Minh Thanh |
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Post by CherieKropp on Jan 9, 2014 19:29:55 GMT -5
I find this interesting:
Minh Thanh: I think the main reason that caused Darrel to want to chase Uncle Chau out of the work, because he didn't obey this rule of organization. Chau and Hoa used to visit all the country after all the foreigners had to leave VN after 1975. Their fields were the whole country. And they continue to visit our Friends in the countryside. The native Workers had been going where the Spirit led them and where they felt there was a need. Sometimes, they traveled together and sometimes they went their separate ways in order to visit the Friends more often.
The other workers stayed together in pairs when they traveled and always lived in baches.
So why cant the workers all over the world stay in baches like they do in VN? Making it safer for the children and much more convenient for the Friends. And the workers could stay in one place and spoke out...
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Jan 9, 2014 22:35:51 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 9, 2014 22:35:51 GMT -5
I find this interestingL Minh Thanh: I think the main reason that caused Darrel to want to chase Uncle Chau out of the work, because he didn't obey this rule of organization. Chau and Hoa used to visit all the country after all the foreigners had to leave VN after 1975. Their fields were the whole country. And they continue to visit our Friends in the countryside. The native Workers had been going where the Spirit led them and where they felt there was a need. Sometimes, they traveled together and sometimes they went their separate ways in order to visit the Friends more often. The other workers stayed together in pairs when they traveled and always lived in baches.
So why cant the workers all over the world stay in baches like they do in VN? Making it safer for the children and much more convenient for the Friends. And the workers could stay in one place and spoke out...
CherrieKroop: You are right... the main reason was uncle Chau & Hoa haven't gone to their new flow (rule) yet... As I had said, they still used their free time after the convention (one month) for visitting friends in the fields not belonging to them. Friends in those fields love, respect, and miss our uncle workers so much. (Our uncle local workers miss their sheep in the whole country too.) Some are waiting for their visit to profess. Recently I heard a lady said "I only want to profess with uncle Châu..." even workers came to her house preaching for her! Something like this just made they dislike uncle Châu & Hoa. I had explained to her that was unjustice to the workers had been preaching for you. Then she told me a story about 2 sister workers go together without unity & love. That the reason why she hesitate to profess, even workers invited her into their felowship. |
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Post by vutrunghien on Jan 10, 2014 0:13:37 GMT -5
My name is Vũ Trung Hiền, 66 years old, youngest brother of Vũ Ngọc Châu, the servant of God in Vietnam who had labored there during the past 47 years.
My parents named him Ngọc Châu, which means "pearl" in English. A few years before she went to be with the Lord, in 1992, my mother wrote to Brother Châu " My dear son, I have 10 children, and I have given you, my precious pearl, to God, as my tithe. I have no regret in offering you to him although sometimes, I can't help wondering who will take care of you, especially when I am half the globe away from you, and you are living under difficult situation over there... "
It is true that during the 80's, life in Vietnam was quite harsh for Chau under the communist ruling .
It was understandable because the atheist communists were always against Christianity and the believers.
But my brother Châu, in spite of lacking material things, seemed to enjoy his service to God and His people.
But recently, I learned that since the Canadian overseers came to Vietnam, they acted like big boss, and have made one mistake after another, causing the current chaotic and divided situation over there.
The worst things that they did were to "fire" brother Châu from his preaching, and sent him away from Vietnam.
They also used lies and fabrication, trying to dishonor him.
Due to his gentle nature, brother Châu has kept me and his eight brothers and sisters from knowing what had happened to him.
He suffered all this pain and injustice alone.
I believe that until the "leadership" of the organization in America and Canada realize that they had been wrong in treating brother Châu that way, and apologize to him, as one of the first steps toward reconciliation, the golden days of the sect (when Uncle Fred Allen and Uncle Edwin were there, and until the coming of the Canadians) will never return.
Vũ Trung Hiền
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Jan 10, 2014 0:32:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 0:32:04 GMT -5
My name is Vũ Trung Hiền, 66 years old, youngest brother of Vũ Ngọc Châu, the servant of God in Vietnam who had labored there during the past 47 years.
My parents named him Ngọc Châu, which means "pearl" in English. A few years before she went to be with the Lord, in 1992, my mother wrote to Brother Châu " My dear son, I have 10 children, and I have given you, my precious pearl, to God, as my tithe. I have no regret in offering you to him although sometimes, I can't help wondering who will take care of you, especially when I am half the globe away from you, and you are living under difficult situation over there... "
It is true that during the 80's, life in Vietnam was quite harsh for Chau under the communist ruling .
It was understandable because the atheist communists were always against Christianity and the believers.
But my brother Châu, in spite of lacking material things, seemed to enjoy his service to God and His people.
But recently, I learned that since the Canadian overseers came to Vietnam, they acted like big boss, and have made one mistake after another, causing the current chaotic and divided situation over there.
The worst things that they did were to "fire" brother Châu from his preaching, and sent him away from Vietnam.
They also used lies and fabrication, trying to dishonor him.
Due to his gentle nature, brother Châu has kept me and his eight brothers and sisters from knowing what had happened to him.
He suffered all this pain and injustice alone.
I believe that until the "leadership" of the organization in America and Canada realize that they had been wrong in treating brother Châu that way, and apologize to him, as one of the first steps toward reconciliation, the golden days of the sect (when Uncle Fred Allen and Uncle Edwin were there, and until the coming of the Canadians) will never return.
Vũ Trung Hiền Thank you very much for contributing here Vũ Trung Hiền. Can you give us a list of the "lies and fabrications" that you know were made about your brother Châu by the Canadian workers? Which workers in particular were telling these things? Thanks! |
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Jan 10, 2014 0:43:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 0:43:29 GMT -5
Sir, I agree with your perception of the situation. Unfortunately, once powers that be reach a conclusion it is rarely, if ever completely reversed. This policy has caused much anguish to many of us, and has revealed to us the group's true roots and origin.
For myself, and some like me, this has dictated a new beginning and individually a fresh start. Looking to any of these men as being willing to do what they can in any way they can, has resulted in great disappointment for many of us over the decades since its beginning with William Irvine, and cohorts. All we can do is look to our Lord as our only Absolute, leaving all forms of denominational ism behind and for me that has included the idealistic beliefs held by many in the past.
Having been caught in the same type of disillusionment, compounded by a lifetime of pain brought on by broken bones in my back from a freak accident at Orsa Convention in Sweden, while objecting to workers living on their govt. pensions, there just seems to be no possible solution nor answer. It saddens me to have to bear witness still to these facts. I have never lost the love that motivated me to become a "worker."
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Jan 10, 2014 1:02:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 1:02:23 GMT -5
My name is Vũ Trung Hiền, 66 years old, youngest brother of Vũ Ngọc Châu, the servant of God in Vietnam who had labored there during the past 47 years. My parents named him Ngọc Châu, which means "pearl" in English. A few years before she went to be with the Lord, in 1992, my mother wrote to Brother Châu " My dear son, I have 10 children, and I have given you, my precious pearl, to God, as my tithe. I have no regret in offering you to him although sometimes, I can't help wondering who will take care of you, especially when I am half the globe away from you, and you are living under difficult situation over there... " It is true that during the 80's, life in Vietnam was quite harsh for Chau under the communist ruling . It was understandable because the atheist communists were always against Christianity and the believers. But my brother Châu, in spite of lacking material things, seemed to enjoy his service to God and His people. But recently, I learned that since the Canadian overseers came to Vietnam, they acted like big boss, and have made one mistake after another, causing the current chaotic and divided situation over there. The worst things that they did were to "fire" brother Châu from his preaching, and sent him away from Vietnam. They also used lies and fabrication, trying to dishonor him. Due to his gentle nature, brother Châu has kept me and his eight brothers and sisters from knowing what had happened to him. He suffered all this pain and injustice alone. I believe that until the "leadership" of the organization in America and Canada realize that they had been wrong in treating brother Châu that way, and apologize to him, as one of the first steps toward reconciliation, the golden days of the sect (when Uncle Fred Allen and Uncle Edwin were there, and until the coming of the Canadians) will never return. Vũ Trung Hiền [/font][/quote] Thank you very much for your input VVũ Trung Hiền -- and we can certainly understand your pain at the way that your brother has been handled in this situation. Your presence hear on this message board is very valuable .. thank you. |
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Jan 10, 2014 1:12:26 GMT -5
Post by trungnguyen2006 on Jan 10, 2014 1:12:26 GMT -5
Welcome Uncle Hien. I'm the daughter of Minh Thanh and I also join this board to let everyone know what's happen in Vietnam. I'm happy that you have join this board to reconfirm some of the informations that we provided are true.
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Jan 10, 2014 1:25:36 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 10, 2014 1:25:36 GMT -5
my mother wrote to Brother Châu " My dear son, I have 10 children, and I have given you, my precious pearl, to God, as my tithe. I have no regret in offering you to him although sometimes, I can't help wondering who will take care of you, especially when I am half the globe away from you, and you are living under difficult situation over there... "
Hi... Anh Hiền... I am glad you are being here... I was touched with your mother writing to uncle Chau. Reminding me what your father had said the same idea, at the day we were gathering at your parents house, to celebrate uncle Châu going into the field... It seems your parents had the same will, to offer uncle Chau for God's work. |
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Jan 10, 2014 2:11:16 GMT -5
Post by trungnguyen2006 on Jan 10, 2014 2:11:16 GMT -5
Minh Thanh: You wrote- "The other local workers in Vietnam as I had mentioned previously are recruited by Darrel and receive money from him. They dare not to say anything against them (Dale, Darrel, Lyle)."How many local sisters? Are they all recruite d by Darrel? What do you mean recruited by Darrel? I thought workers felt or hear a calling from God and go into the work? Is it different in Vietnam? Were Chau and Hoa the same? recruited by Uncle Fred Allen? Did they receive money from Fred or other foreign workers? That is normal and ok. I understand workers worldwide share money given to them with other workers. I know in South America they share so that all can live and travel and share the gospel. Review005, I have the same question with CD for you, Where do you live? ( I guess that you are in Vietnam, correct me if I'm wrong because in your question make me "feel" about you) To let you know that I have been sharing on this board for a few months ago, you may have to come back to the page of 14 or 15 to read for a better understanding if you wish to know. ( But I think that you have already know it...) I your question regarding sister workers and those who are recruited by Darrel, I would like to let you know that if this 2x2 system accept a married woman like me to go the the work then I would offer my life, because: 1. there are some sister workers, after breaking with their boyfriend went to the work. Although, they had kissing and carrying each other in the public area which is not allow for a vietnamese girl to do so. Do you want me to name them here? 2. To be a worker will have a much easier life than before. You will have a nice motorbike, using smart phone, traveling by air plane, living in a expensive apartment while I have to go to work for more than 10 hours a day, and working overtime in the night still have not enough to buy such an expensive moto bike like wokers. If the worker lost his motobike today, they easily got a new one tomorow. Again, do you want me to name that worker here? So, the meaning of recruiting my Darrel is that they follow the example of Darrel, have a very easy life, appearance like a business man, never think of why we have to save money for the poor people... |
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Jan 10, 2014 2:15:25 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 2:15:25 GMT -5
Just wondering -- Is there a picture of Chau available somewhere?
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Jan 10, 2014 2:48:07 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 10, 2014 2:48:07 GMT -5
Just wondering -- Is there a picture of Chau available somewhere? I have sent you a very special picture... |
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Jan 10, 2014 3:12:37 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Jan 10, 2014 3:12:37 GMT -5
MT, I think you are wise to have a foot in each camp. I think your wonderful spirit will help change and maybe return to the Golden Years. At least you were able to enjoy those golden years. I don't think we have really had golden years in USA in my 65 years. Maybe a nicer time for my first 10 years, but then things changed. Keep strong, and remember that Abraham claimed to be Sarah's brother to escape wrath of the king, so you are doing nothing wrong.....Dale/Laz Please do not ever confuse me with Dale Shultz or Dale Boors..... yes, at first I was confused Dale here is Dale Shultz and I didn't know why. Thank you your post make me clear. Now I am enjoying with many friends on the board making me understand more the religion 2x2 and then I will have a good choice to worship God. I can't have a foot in each camp. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 4:43:53 GMT -5
This English poem by Kipling is good advice -- especially in situations like the Vietnam concern that is unfolding at the moment before our eyes.
IF
IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!
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Post by lazarus66 on Jan 10, 2014 4:59:45 GMT -5
MT, I think you can worship God, and also keep a foot in each camp. Remember your foot is only a foot. It is clear your heart is not in each camp. For you to have a foot in each camp will allow you to bring real truth to all. You have a difficult time ahead of you, in keeping the one foot in the other camp, but perhaps that is your purpose.
I am glad you have shared here, as I was trying to come to VN just to live. I knew that the ones from the Golden years had a real understanding.
I also know that the ones that live an easy life from Dale Shultz, will not have that understanding.
Your life lived before them, will let them see what real truth is. I hope you have been able to separate the wolves from the true shepherd. The 2x2 religion is not the truth, but many that are still in it believe that it is the only way. We know that is not true.
When we follow men, we are not on the true way, but when we listen to God and follow what he wants, then we are on the true way.
Truth is not something that someone can claim and own. It is there for all. Some in the 2x2 way do live in truth, but we are learning that not all are living in truth.
Certainly the Canadian workers that come and cause pain are not from God. They will pay for their sin in their love of comfort and the easy way.
Jesus said my yoke is light and burden is easy, but He did not mean that you take money from those that need it to live the easy and good life with nice things.
He meant that we are free from those things.
The sad thing is that those that need the money to eat and have a home are suffering so these men can live without working.
That they are wrong is no mistake. Those like Chou are the true ones.
I hope that the people will see that and return to the right path. It does not belong to the 2x2s.
May you all find peace and comfort, together in your country..........Dale/Lazarus66
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Jan 10, 2014 6:11:21 GMT -5
Post by vutrunghien on Jan 10, 2014 6:11:21 GMT -5
 Dear Minh Thanh & Hoàn, cháu Trung Nguyễn, EdgarMassey & Clearday:
Thank you all for giving me a warm welcome !
Attached is the picture of Brother Châu and me.
It was taken in April 2012, when I went to Cambodia to visit him.
The two brothers are sharing breakfast at a street vendor in Phnom Penh .
To answer your question, Clearday, I want to make a statement here: Darrel Turner, the Canadian Overseer, is behind all the lies and fabrications about my brother Châu.
PS: CherieKropp, could you kindly remove the letter "n" after the name of the country Vietnam, the topic of this posting?
Thank you.
Vũ Trung Hiền
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Jan 10, 2014 6:40:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 6:40:48 GMT -5
Thank you Vũ Trung Hiền.
Edgar would have to fix the spelling of Vietnam since he was the one who started the topic thread.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 7:35:17 GMT -5
Yes the spelling error is my fault and I will try to fix it when I get home. When I started this thread I had no idea it would develop as much as it has. Although English is my mother tongue (I was born and raised in Canada . same province as Dale Shultz and Morris Grovum  ), I have lived and worked in Sweden using the Swedish language for over 40 years now, and my English spelling isn't always very good. I try to use the spell checker when I think of it, but it doesn't seem to check the subject line. Thank you for the picture -- and most of all, for your presence here on this board. It adds much credibility to the issue - especially when you have the courage and integrity to use your name and picture (as the other Vietnamese posters also do). Very admirable!!! ---- Now I hope the spelling is corrected -- didn't seem to work to change it from my cell phone. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2014 12:52:41 GMT -5
To answer your question, Clearday, I want to make a statement here: Darrel Turner, the Canadian Overseer, is behind all the lies and fabrications about my brother Châu.
I would like make a comment about this part of your post ... I don't doubt for a moment the truth in this statement of yours, and I understand as you have mentioned that he will be personally responsible for many of the ugly things that he has said, implied and done to your brother. Chau of course is worthy an apology but unfortunately, the experience some of us have with 2x2 leadership has convinced us 'Its not going to happen" -- at least not in any kind of genuine manner. The problem is, as Dale S mentioned in his letter, these decisions have been made at a much higher level than Mr Turner -- he is just a puppet, where his strings have been pulled by the 2x2 high council in North America -- Dale Shultz is one of the higher figures there. Seeing that this ugliness toward Chau has been sanctioned by this high counsel within 2x2ism, it is impossible for them to back down, because to them, the work just speaks for God himself. As many of us have found out, although this is a very ugly and anti-Christian doctrine -- it is what steers 2x2ism. We understand your frustration and pain, and very much wish we could come with the comfort that everything will work out and be as 'the golden days' again within the fellowship -- But instead the only comfort I can attempt to give is the conviction that God will lead you out of this Egypt that has hosted you until now -- in and through the uncertainty of the exodus experience and Red Sea crossing that you are experiencing now .. and into something far far better -- although still hid from your eyes today. When we see and understand the genuineness in your purpose -- and love in your hearts for what is right I have full faith that you will continue to be led into the wondrous beauty of the will of God --(as you go forth in faith) This has been our experience, and now we are thankful for it. Edgar As 2x2ism has, Egypt filled an important function in the children of Israel's lives --- until the Egyptian leaders started to demand more and more brick from less and less clay. Finally God decided to lead them into something better.. but it wasn't easy for God to convince them to leave Egypt behind and go into an unknown future -- but after frustration and pain they did follow his leading and were true to their calling - and God was able to bring them into something far far better. This is the hope of the gospel message. |
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Jan 10, 2014 15:21:34 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by trungnguyen2006 on Jan 10, 2014 15:21:34 GMT -5
Uncle Nathan B,
I have fully understanding and respectful of the true workers like uncle Chau and Hoa. I was touched by their example and their sacrify so I have made may choice in 1993. If uncle Chau and Hoa have the same life as the workers have now in Vietnam, I have to say that I would never profess because I cannot feel that love from them and never see JESUS through their life.
I am fully agree with you that worker's life is easy, but for vietnam situation is a diferrent story, more and more yound friends want to be worker but they have not equip themself enough so that others can feel JESUS LOVE from them.
Again, I appreciate the work of TRUE worker.
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Jan 10, 2014 15:55:33 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Jan 10, 2014 15:55:33 GMT -5
Thanks! In the official name, is Vietnam spelled out or just the 2 letters: "VN" Does the name have the word "The" in front of it? Seems like there should be: The Christian Mission OF VN OR: Christian Mission IN VN CHIRSTIAN MISSION IN VN sounds correct. However, I will check with the registed documenas and give you the correct one. trungnguyen2006: Could you send me a copy of the registered documents? Thanx, Cherie |
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Jan 10, 2014 16:38:11 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Jan 10, 2014 16:38:11 GMT -5
Uncle Nathan B, I have fully understanding and respectful of the true workers like uncle Chau and Hoa. I was touched by their example and their sacrify so I have made may choice in 1993. If uncle Chau and Hoa have the same life as the workers have now in Vietnam, I have to say that I would never profess because I cannot feel that love from them and never see JESUS through their life. I am fully agree with you that worker's life is easy, but for vietnam situation is a diferrent story, more and more yound friends want to be worker but they have not equip themself enough so that others can feel JESUS LOVE from them. Again, I appreciate the work of TRUE worker. Thank you trungnguyen for this post. It explains why the work in Vietnam prospered while the work in the western world stagnated. Western workers should be learning from the success of Chau and Hoa. Instead, they chose to bring the work in Vietnam down to the level of the stagnating west. “Unity must be an over-ruling factor” |
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), I have lived and worked in Sweden using the Swedish language for over 40 years now, and my English spelling isn't always very good. I try to use the spell checker when I think of it, but it doesn't seem to check the subject line.