Vietnam

[minhthanh]

(MT has recorded a whole lot of effort by the workers was made to PREVENT Chau from selling the home--owned by his brother!)


Sorry Cherie... I only recorded after a period of time I discovered that they had lied and denied many things so I decided to record afterwards every time uncle Lyle came to my house with his staff... Because after many conversations, I found out there were many things untrue in their words. I wish if I could record from the beginning...

[CherieKropp]

Jan 6, 2014 12:29:45 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

(MT has recorded a whole lot of effort by the workers was made to PREVENT Chau from selling the home--owned by his brother!)


Sorry Cherie... I only recorded after a period of time I discovered that they had lied and denied many things so I decided to record afterwards every time uncle Lyle came to my house with his staff... Because after many conversations, I found out there were many things untrue in their words. I wish if I could record from the beginning...

Sorry for the misunderstanding, Minh Thanh.
A more easily understood word I could have used would have been "posted." 
In America, we use the word "record" to refer to both written documents and audio.
For clarity, I will correct this on my post using the strikeout

Legal documents are often recorded at the County courthouse. 
At one time, I was responsible for recording deeds and mortgages in my job.

I will be sending you an email shortly with some questions.

[Deleted]

This is just heartbreaking: all those good folks being put through the wringer by a group of men who want to maintain some semblance of international uniformity rather than promoting Christian love and fellowship.

[fixit]

Dale understands the politics. This is what he wrote in 2001:

A simple understanding that workers recognize the world over is that we don't go into other fields and get involved without the knowledge and sanction of the workers in that field. That applies to the field bordering us, let alone the neighboring province.

Chau and Hoa didn't understand the politics.

Their kindness in welcoming foreign workers to Vietnam led to them being pushed aside.

[quizzer]

I'm guessing that it's tougher to sell the "overseers know best" idea in Vietnam. Gotta admit - that's some good folks there in Vietnam!!

[CherieKropp]

Jan 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?

Perhaps bcs Chau doesnt believe that the 2x2 church was founded in 1897 by a man named Wm Irvine.
And he believes it is God's only right church...or so he's telling the friends he's trying to get to come back. 
And that those who aren't in it will go to hell...

Minh Thanh wrote that Chau said the reason he left the Protestant church was because it was the year of Jubilee and he read in a magazine at that time about the history of the formation of the Protestant church. When he realized it was founded by man he decided it was wrong and left it to follow the workers.

The Question is:  Where has Chau been preaching and why?  And where will he be preaching this year? 
If in Vietnam, will it be by workers choice or Chau's government?

[fixit]

Jan 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT -5 @review005 said:

I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.

But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend?

Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?

The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?

The questions you're asking are quite typical of a system-minded way of thinking.

The system divides the flock, endorses those who go with the flow, and condemns those who stand for truth and conscience.

It takes a live fish to swim upstream.

[Sylvestra]

"I wonder if it helped whatever Dale was trying to help--or if it just made things worse?" - Cherie

Or even made the division permanent!?

[minhthanh]

Jan 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT -5 @review005 said:

I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.

But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend?

Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?

The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?

We are waiting for uncle Châu returning... what will happen, I think it will be very difficult for him with Lyle' staff, the government and his family as well.
Uncle Châu had told us that he wanted to return to the work in order to help the younger Vietnamese workers, Just only in the work they could hear his words.
Unfornaterly right after his return in the first convention at Singapore in 2012, uncle Lyle had admonished uncle Châu before his staff made the young workers looked at him with strange eyes. (although uncle Châu was in the work at that time, they (some young workers) still weren't content about him, found any faults to push him out again.  Cường, a young worker, used a fraud way to take an email in his cousin's inbox sent from uncle Châu persuading his cousin , then this email was kept in uncle Lyle's black list. Uncle Châu asked us how uncle Lyle had his email, my husband said that Cường had learned IT and he configured his cousin's computer to automatically,concealedly send every emails coming into his inbox

All golden friends including uncle Hoa "throw their lot" in the Jesus hand.   We are happy in God's plan to us.

The other local workers in Vietnam as I had mentioned previously are recruited by Darrel and receive money from  him. They dare not to say anything against them (Dale, Darrel, Lyle).
When returning home, Uncle Châu will be under close control  of uncle Lyle. So uncle Lyle and uncle Châu were present at the same time at convention in Cambodia likely happened.

[CherieKropp]

RE:  Cường, a young worker, used a fraud way to take an email in his cousin's inbox sent from uncle Châu persuading his cousin , then this email was kept in uncle Lyle's black list. Uncle Châu asked us how uncle Lyle had his email, my husband said that Cường had learned IT and he configured his cousin's computer to automatically,concealedly send every emails coming into his inbox

Is this against the law in VN?

[fixit]

Jan 6, 2014 21:33:22 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Jan 6, 2014 18:12:41 GMT -5 fixit said:

The questions you're asking are quite typical of a system-minded way of thinking.

The system divides the flock, endorses those who go with the flow, and condemns those who stand for truth and conscience.

It takes a live fish to swim upstream.

Is Fixit suggesting that Chau and the other local workers are 'system minded' and not 'live fish' because they haven't 'thrown their lot in in' in the Mr Bau family/Hoa group? 


Anyone got something  meaningful to contribute regarding the questions I've asked?


"I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.



But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend.



Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?



The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?
"

Try to put yourself in Chau's moccasins for a moment.

The friends he's labored for all his life have been split in two by controlling foreign workers.

I expect he'll want to minister to, and be in fellowship with all of them.

If he casts his lot in with those who resisted the controlling foreign workers, then he isolates himself from those who are still meeting with the foreign workers.

Not because he wants it that way, but because the sheep have been divided.

[minhthanh]

Jan 6, 2014 22:08:09 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

RE:  Cường, a young worker, used a fraud way to take an email in his cousin's inbox sent from uncle Châu persuading his cousin , then this email was kept in uncle Lyle's black list. Uncle Châu asked us how uncle Lyle had his email, my husband said that Cường had learned IT and he configured his cousin's computer to automatically,concealedly send every emails coming into his inbox

Is this against the law in VN?

Of course, it was against the law in VN. 
When my husband found the email was taken by Cường, and informed to his cousin, he was extremly angry...

Again, uncle Châu persuaded him to calm down.  

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 21:33:22 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Jan 6, 2014 18:12:41 GMT -5 fixit said:

The questions you're asking are quite typical of a system-minded way of thinking.

The system divides the flock, endorses those who go with the flow, and condemns those who stand for truth and conscience.

It takes a live fish to swim upstream.


Is Fixit suggesting that Chau and the other local workers are 'system minded' and not 'live fish' because they haven't 'thrown their lot in in' in the Mr Bau family/Hoa group? 


Anyone got something  meaningful to contribute regarding the questions I've asked?


"I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.



But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend.



Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?



The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?
"

You are all about politics my friend. You frame this issue as a matter of "throwing his lot in" with Dale or with Bau/Ho. I see this same kind of political thinking among my F&W friends all the time. Here they call it "camps" that people join.

Minh Thanh has it right. She and Hoa have "thrown their lot in" with Jesus....meaning they have chosen what is right, not a political party of Dale vs Bau/Hoa. Does this make any sense to you whatsoever?

[minhthanh]

Jan 6, 2014 22:33:35 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 6, 2014 21:33:22 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Is Fixit suggesting that Chau and the other local workers are 'system minded' and not 'live fish' because they haven't 'thrown their lot in in' in the Mr Bau family/Hoa group? 


Anyone got something  meaningful to contribute regarding the questions I've asked?


"I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.



But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend.



Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?



The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?
"

Try to put yourself in Chau's moccasins for a moment.

The friends he's labored for all his life have been split in two by controlling foreign workers.

I expect he'll want to minister to, and be in fellowship with all of them.

If he casts his lot in with those who resisted the controlling foreign workers, then he isolates himself from those who are still meeting with the foreign workers.

Not because he wants it that way, but because the sheep have been divided.

Thanks Fixit...
It seems you understand our heart... and uncle Chau's heart as well... God knows his heart and we know him too... even he dare not sending email or visiting us... (afraid of their controlling power !...).

[minhthanh]

Jan 7, 2014 3:13:05 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Minh Thanh

you wrote

"The other local workers in Vietnam as I had mentioned previously are recruited by Darrel and receive money from him."

I can't find your previous mention about this. Please explain what happened.

Please patient, you read all my posts from the beginning. You will understand more clearly and find that.

[sharingtheriches]

Jan 6, 2014 23:44:36 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Jan 6, 2014 22:33:35 GMT -5 fixit said:

Try to put yourself in Chau's moccasins for a moment.

The friends he's labored for all his life have been split in two by controlling foreign workers.

I expect he'll want to minister to, and be in fellowship with all of them.

If he casts his lot in with those who resisted the controlling foreign workers, then he isolates himself from those who are still meeting with the foreign workers.

Not because he wants it that way, but because the sheep have been divided.

Thanks Fixit...
It seems you understand our heart... and uncle Chau's heart as well... God knows his heart and we know him too... even he dare not sending email or visiting us... (afraid of their controlling power !...).

A few years ago, some teenagers came up with this phrase and it went viral here in the US..."What Would Jesus Do?" It was shortened to "WWJD" I am deeply impressed at you folks following Jesus...for this is the way to eternal rest. I often think of what Jesus said to Peter in the last chapter of John's gospel..."Follow thou me" and again "Follow me".......when the scent of troubles come around us, we do need to know what Jesus would do, don't we? I'm glad that Jesus is YOUR leader and you seek to follow him.

May peace soon reign in VN and uncle Chau be able to find his place again and be content with it.....I pray that soon these workers who are so big on themselves will see Jesus and fall down blind like Paul did...I can only imagine what they'll do if that were to happen! They'd be lost forever, I'm sure! For the fact they've been kicking against the pricks and abolishing Jesus in people's lives and making their own little kingdoms or dictatorships!

[Deleted]

Review005, where you live, don't the workers put out a call for new workers at conventions and special meetings? If that isn't recruiting, I don't know what is. Hopefully those recruited feel that it is a call from God but as you know, most workers do consider themselves the mouthpieces for God so there's not much difference between the two.

Money can cut both ways. Sharing is one thing, making people dependent on you for money is another. I'm not suggesting that Darrel was doing that, but it would be naive to think it impossible. We already know that the foreign workers are pretty attractive in VN driving nicer motorbikes and dressing like Western businesspersons so for new young workers, they would see Darrel, Morris and Colin as the leaders, not Hoa and Chau.

[minhthanh]

Jan 7, 2014 17:53:15 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Minh Thanh:

You wrote-

"The other local workers in Vietnam as I had mentioned previously are recruited by Darrel and receive money from him. They dare not to say anything against them (Dale, Darrel, Lyle)."

How many local sisters?

Are they all recruited by Darrel?

What do you mean recruited by Darrel?

I thought workers felt or hear a calling from God and go into the work? Is it different in Vietnam? 

Were Chau and Hoa the same? recruited by Uncle Fred Allen?

Did they receive money from Fred or other foreign workers? That is normal and ok.

I understand  workers worldwide  share money given to them with other workers. I know in South America they share so that all can live and travel and share the gospel.

"recruited by Darrel". As you know, Uncle Châu and Hoa are older and more years in the work than Darrel. As for the government, in the paper they are still in charge of the church " Sứ Mạrng Thánh  Đồ" in Vietnam, but every time there is a new worker, both of them are surprised because Darrel never consult them or ask their opinion. (Even one time uncle Châu gave advice to a very young sister worker... immediatly there was a gathering for all the young F&W ... Darrel said to them "Don't need to concern what uncle Châu advice".)

Each year, Darrel distribute an envelope with money to each worker once for the whole year.
Previously, someone was declared to be a worker, we weren't surprised because we saw some signs in his /her life.
We used to live in Đalạt. When we were there, one time Darrel told me that don't use the word "lao khổ" instead "lao sướng".
"lao khổ" that means "labor", "lao sướng" that means to work with a more comfortable life. He wants to promise to bring a better condition of life to the workers. 
 the workers in uncle Fred's time, they lived in humble house or apartment, they went to the market and prepared the meals by themselves, they wore normal clothes and travelled by common motorbike. We saw the clear purpose in their life. The love of other souls and the bringing of gospel to people.
It's contrast now. They live in expensive apartment...We don't see the love for others, even the love among themselves.
I did know and understand what you mean, professed when  I was 11 years old, and 60 now.
I don't want to be here for dispute, I just raise the faith... you believe or not, it doesn't matter... My only purpose, do hope that who was doing wrong can see and change, when there is still the time for them in this world. 

Please, reading what I had post from page 14 till now,  you can understand by yourself... 

[fixit]

Jan 7, 2014 20:27:55 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Each year, Darrel distribute an envelope with money to each worker once for the whole year.
Previously, someone was declared to be a worker, we weren't surprised because we saw some signs in his /her life.
We used to live in Đalạt. When we were there, one time Darrel told me that don't use the word "lao khổ" instead "lao sướng".
"lao khổ" that means "labor", "lao sướng" that means to work with a more comfortable life. He wants to promise to bring a better condition of life to the workers. 
 the workers in uncle Fred's time, they lived in humble house or apartment, they went to the market and prepared the meals by themselves, they wore normal clothes and travelled by common motorbike. We saw the clear purpose in their life. The love of other souls and the bringing of gospel to people.
It's contrast now. They live in expensive apartment...We don't see the love for others, even the love among themselves.

Thanks for letting the friends know how their contributions to the ministry are spent.

Too much money has damaged the ministry.

[CherieKropp]

MT wrote:  Each year, Darrel distribute an envelope with money to each worker once for the whole year.

Just so there is no misunderstanding...I need to ask a question.

Is the money Darrel distributes supposed to last the worker for the entire year?

Or did you mean that Darrell only gives the workers money once a year? 
And perhaps Friends give them additional money thru the year?

In America, each worker is given a little money when they leave convention to enable them get back to their fields and start a new mission.  After that, the Friends in their fields provide them with money and support.


PS.  Are you receiving my emails?  (just making sure they aren't being hijacked!)

[lazarus66]

When people ask me why I left the group, I will tell them to read this as the only answer I will give.

Dale should call the workers, in this case "B.S artists.........

MT, I am glad you follow your heart.

My best to all in VN............Dale

[Sylvestra]

Jan 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT -5 @review005 said:

I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.

But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend?

Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?

The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?

If I were in Chau's shoes and wanting to re-unite the two groups in the future here are a couple of things I would be taking into consideration:

#1.  The "golden friends" love and are speaking to me openly and with acceptance....want me to continue.
#2.  The friends following the overseers are speaking to me openly, some grudgingly, and don't really care if I continue or not.
#3.  If I stay with the overseers friends, I can have feet in both "camps".
#4.  If I side with the "golden friends" I will loose all acceptance and relationship with the overseers friends.
#5.  Taking #1-4 into consideration, It is the most valuable to healing in the future for me to stay placed among
the overseers friends and on open speaking terms with the "golden friends".  
#6.  If I side with the "golden friends", and the overseers friends reject me completely, my usefulness in healing this breach is dead.

Conclusion:  For now, it is the most important for me to stay where I am.....with the overseers.

[fixit]

Jan 7, 2014 22:20:16 GMT -5 Sylvestra said:

Jan 6, 2014 17:54:00 GMT -5 @review005 said:

I read in this thread of allegations made about Lyle and Dale etc, the injustice against Chau etc.

But then.... Lyle and Chau were in the convention together in Cambodia together last weekend?

Why has Chau not chosen to 'throw his lot in' with the Mr Bau family/Hoa group?

The other local workers in Vietnam, there are a few, what about them?

If I were in Chau's shoes and wanting to re-unite the two groups in the future here are a couple of things I would be taking into consideration:

#1.  The "golden friends" love and are speaking to me openly and with acceptance....want me to continue.
#2.  The friends following the overseers are speaking to me openly, some grudgingly, and don't really care if I continue or not.
#3.  If I stay with the overseers friends, I can have feet in both "camps".
#4.  If I side with the "golden friends" I will loose all acceptance and relationship with the overseers friends.
#5.  Taking #1-4 into consideration, It is the most valuable to healing in the future for me to stay placed among
the overseers friends and on open speaking terms with the "golden friends".  
#6.  If I side with the "golden friends", and the overseers friends reject me completely, my usefulness in healing this breach is dead.

Conclusion:  For now, it is the most important for me to stay where I am.....with the overseers.

That's exactly how I see it Sylvestra. In fact, I suspect many of the "Golden Friends" feel the same.

It would be interesting to do a secret poll of the system friends in VN and see how many wish for reconciliation.

If the government expelled the foreign "teachers", I expect the "students" would get along far better than they do now.

[minhthanh]

Jan 7, 2014 21:03:15 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

MT wrote:  Each year, Darrel distribute an envelope with money to each worker once for the whole year.

Just so there is no misunderstanding...I need to ask a question.

Is the money Darrel distributes supposed to last the worker for the entire year?

Or did you mean that Darrell only gives the workers money once a year? 
And perhaps Friends give them additional money thru the year?

In America, each worker is given a little money when they leave convention to enable them get back to their fields and start a new mission.  After that, the Friends in their fields provide them with money and support.


PS.  Are you receiving my emails?  (just making sure they aren't being hijacked!)

yes, the money Darrel distributes is supposed to last the worker for the entire year besides the money friends give.
No, I am not receiving your emails, strange!

[minhthanh]

Jan 7, 2014 20:27:55 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Jan 7, 2014 17:53:15 GMT -5 @review005 said:

Minh Thanh:

You wrote-

"The other local workers in Vietnam as I had mentioned previously are recruited by Darrel and receive money from him. They dare not to say anything against them (Dale, Darrel, Lyle)."

How many local sisters?

Are they all recruited by Darrel?

What do you mean recruited by Darrel?

I thought workers felt or hear a calling from God and go into the work? Is it different in Vietnam? 

Were Chau and Hoa the same? recruited by Uncle Fred Allen?

Did they receive money from Fred or other foreign workers? That is normal and ok.

I understand  workers worldwide  share money given to them with other workers. I know in South America they share so that all can live and travel and share the gospel.

"recruited by Darrel". As you know, Uncle Châu and Hoa are older and more years in the work than Darrel. As for the government, in the paper they are still in charge of the church " Sứ Mạrng Thánh  Đồ" in Vietnam, but every time there is a new worker, both of them are surprised because Darrel never consult them or ask their opinion. (Even one time uncle Châu gave advice to a very young sister worker... immediatly there was a gathering for all the young F&W ... Darrel said to them "Don't need to concern what uncle Châu advice".)

Each year, Darrel distribute an envelope with money to each worker once for the whole year.
Previously, someone was declared to be a worker, we weren't surprised because we saw some signs in his /her life.
We used to live in Đalạt. When we were there, one time Darrel told me that don't use the word "lao khổ" instead "lao sướng".
"lao khổ" that means "labor", "lao sướng" that means to work with a more comfortable life. He wants to promise to bring a better condition of life to the workers. 
 the workers in uncle Fred's time, they lived in humble house or apartment, they went to the market and prepared the meals by themselves, they wore normal clothes and travelled by common motorbike. We saw the clear purpose in their life. The love of other souls and the bringing of gospel to people.
It's contrast now. They live in expensive apartment...We don't see the love for others, even the love among themselves.
I did know and understand what you mean, professed when  I was 11 years old, and 60 now.
I don't want to be here for dispute, I just raise the faith... you believe or not, it doesn't matter... My only purpose, do hope that who was doing wrong can see and change, when there is still the time for them in this world. 

Please, reading what I had post from page 14 till now,  you can understand by yourself... 

One thing more I would like to add here...

In the past none of the local workers (3 brother & 3 sister) went abroad many times as now... although that was the liberty time, easy to go abroad...

We often met the Australian worker at the market (my parent lived near their batch). They never bought the expensive one. they tried to save money at their best... then used it for the work... or helped the poor. It was quite different with what I have seen now a day.

[CherieKropp]

RE:  No, I am not receiving your emails, strange!

Minh Thanh - I just sent you a private message. 

[minhthanh]

Jan 7, 2014 22:55:30 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jan 7, 2014 22:20:16 GMT -5 Sylvestra said:

If I were in Chau's shoes and wanting to re-unite the two groups in the future here are a couple of things I would be taking into consideration:

#1.  The "golden friends" love and are speaking to me openly and with acceptance....want me to continue.
#2.  The friends following the overseers are speaking to me openly, some grudgingly, and don't really care if I continue or not.
#3.  If I stay with the overseers friends, I can have feet in both "camps".
#4.  If I side with the "golden friends" I will loose all acceptance and relationship with the overseers friends.
#5.  Taking #1-4 into consideration, It is the most valuable to healing in the future for me to stay placed among
the overseers friends and on open speaking terms with the "golden friends".  
#6.  If I side with the "golden friends", and the overseers friends reject me completely, my usefulness in healing this breach is dead.

Conclusion:  For now, it is the most important for me to stay where I am.....with the overseers.

That's exactly how I see it Sylvestra. In fact, I suspect many of the "Golden Friends" feel the same.

It would be interesting to do a secret poll of the system friends in VN and see how many wish for reconciliation.

If the government expelled the foreign "teachers", I expect the "students" would get along far better than they do now.

The root of devision come from the workers, not friends.
According to the real happening, the fact that division was come from the foreigner workers, according to Darrel' reported to Dale... It was cause from uncle Châu... as uncle Dale's mention in his letter !...
We have had many others thing prove that they are wrong... No one among friends want to be in this situation !...

[Deleted]

MT, can you explain in more detail the meaning of the phrase " lao khổ "? Does it mean something like "suffering in labour" more literally? I understand the word "khổ" is used in Buddhism regarding suffering.