Vietnam

[minhthanh]

3355 D Street

Hayward, CA 94541-4565

April 28, 2012

Dear Brothers and Sisters,



I have been asked to outline the involvement of Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento and

myself during our visit to your country in March of 2010. I had been invited by Jim

Chafee to Hong Kong, China and Mongolia for a visit. Because we had teachers in your

country whom I knew well, I was anxious to also visit there while in the east. After

arrangements were made for me to spend two weeks in your land, I began to hear

about some problems there involving Chau.(1) The teachers in your country were anxious

that I would help in resolving these problems. I was only going to be there for two

weeks and I was going with very little background information conceming the teachers

and students in your country. I didn't want to attempt to sort through these problems

alone, so I was in touch with Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson and Tsutomu Miyata

regarding this trip and the issues that were a concern. It was arranged that Tsutomu

and Simeon would be there with me during the first week of my time in your land.



We visited with the local men teachers (including Hoa) concerning Chau. Tsutomu,

Simeon and I then visited with Chau. We found Chau quite open to direction and help

and we discussed the problem areas that had been presented to us. Later, Darrel,

Morris and Hoa were added to the discussion group and a good spirit prevailed in our

visiting together. Chau committed himself to correcting some things which he had

practiced in the past. Because Chau was still in the midst of getting the family property

transferred to new owners and disposing of the proceeds thereof, we suggested that he

take a leave of absence from being active in the ministry until these business affairs

were all finalized. (2) We also anticipated that he could use this period of time to establish

a better relationship with the staff in general. We were very impressed with Chau's

attitude during our time with him and our expectation was that the relationship between

himself and others on the teaching staff would improve and trust between them would

be deepened over the few months that Chau would be completing these business

affairs. (3)



I would like to add here that Hoa was very helpful during these visits. I remember two

occasions during our discussions when Hoa made suggestions which we gladly

followed. He had the advantage of having been a close friend of Chau for many years.

We all were concerned that the very best results could be realized for the teachers and

students in your country and for Chau's future as well.



After returning to California, I became aware that our anticipated "improved relationship"

between Chau and other teaching staff members was not happening. In fact, it seemed

like the relationship was becoming more strained again. (4) The time came when the

business affairs concerning the family property were all completed (5) but it seemed that 

there was very little desire to reinstate Chau to an active role on the teaching staff. It

also seenned that little effort was being made to try to help him with whatever was

perceived to be the remaining obstacles to that happening. Because the relationship

between Chau and the teaching staff, as well as the relationship between Chau and a

sizable section of the students, had not been adequately dealt with; the possibility of

Chau starting immediately in Vietnam was hardly an option. (5) I was then in touch with

Jim Girton and Ernest Robinson, wondering if they would favor an attempt to have Chau

come to California to labor with our staff for as long a time period as a visa would

permit. It was thought that it would be very beneficial for Chau to gain experience

working (6) with a larger staff of teachers and would give him opportunity to understand

better how teachers (7), young and old, work in harmony together; respecting each others

fields of responsibility and collectively covering the needs of all of the students. If Chau

functioned well in California, this would in turn build up the confidence of the local

teachers and students, so that he could later retum with the full support of all. Jim and

Ernest sanctioned this plan. We obtained the services of a respected immigration

attorney here in California and were surprised when two attempts under this attorney's

guidance and direction resulted in two refusals from American Immigration.



Following this, the decision was made by the overseers closer to your land that Jim

Girton, Keith Olsen and Jiwhan Yu woukJ visit your country to try to sort out the problem

that was there and hopefully come up with a plan that would work towards a solution. It

was during their visit to your land that my brother, Lyie, was approached concerning

coming to your country to help. Since that time, Lyie, Lloyd Morgan, Jim Girton, Ernest

Robinson, Keith Olsen (until he passed away) and Jiwhan Yu have included me in much

of the communication concerning events and issues in your country. My thoughts and

heart have very much been following the events there and hoping for "better days." (8) The

above description pretty much covers my more direct involvement, including that of

Tsutomu Miyata and Simeon Sarmiento, with the issues which concern both yourselves

and those of us who look on from a distance. .



As you know, Chau has again been reinstated to a teaching role and is helping Lloyd in

Cambodia. We are thankful that he has this further opportunity. Much remains to be

done in order that the divisions that have developed in your country can be resolved. (9)

Much also needs to take place in order for most of the teaching staff and many of the

students in your country to have confidence in Chau again. (10) We are as anxious to see

that happen as you are and we will continue to work patiently with the staff, students

and Chau to that end. However, this effort requires your full cooperation. We appeal to

all of you to work closely and cooperatively with Lyie and Lloyd. This is the order that

our great teacher honors and blesses and is the only hope of unity and joy being

restored in fullest measure.



This letter has been compiled with the help and full agreement of Tsutomu Miyata,

Simeon Sarmiento, Ernest Robinson and Jim Girton.



Your friend and brother,

Dale Shultz

[snow]

Wow, no end of deceit in that letter. My thoughts are you are way better off without them. What a bunch.

[CherieKropp]

What do the numbers in parenthesis refer to?

Who are the "students"? 

[snow]

Jan 3, 2014 22:18:52 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

What do the numbers in parenthesis refer to?

Who are the "students"? 

I would say it's code for friends. The teachers are the workers, the students are the friends.

[gecko45]

Jan 3, 2014 23:18:12 GMT -5 snow said:

Jan 3, 2014 22:18:52 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

What do the numbers in parenthesis refer to?

Who are the "students"? 

I would say it's code for friends. The teachers are the workers, the students are the friends.

I would agree here. Have gotten some emails forwarded to me from those areas and the "students" are often some of the friends or contacts.


The "teachers" have "classes" and "students" attend. As time goes on the "teachers" tell how excited they are as the "students" are beginning to understand the "lessons" more and show keen interest in the "subject".


The NSA (and other country's security services), I am sure, are completely baffled 

[dmmichgood]

Jan 3, 2014 18:16:05 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 3, 2014 17:21:12 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

  A really big "broad cultural shift"  happened in the '60-'70's and there was no big change allowed amongst the young people in the **TRUTH* at that time.

Ask anyone that was a teenager then!

The young people these days aren't that far away from knowing  the history of the **TRUTH.** 

 My nieces children surely  know the struggle that their own parents and grand-parents went through when they first learned the Truth about the **TRUTH**

Just ask me then. I was professing teen during the cultural shift of the 60's. I played sports competitively. I was High Student Council president. Didn't have Marine-style haircut. Played in band. Far more non-professing friends than professing friends and had lots of fun with them. Did all kinds of sports and travels with professing friends. Parents were Sunday and Wed elders. How many times was I accosted by workers over my lifestyle? Zero. No struggle. The closest thing to a worker confrontation was when someone told me that a worker asked her why my hair was so long! She said, "Dunno, ask him!". Now me and my professing friends are parents of those kids who are pretty relaxed, normal kids today. It's all connected.

A lot of those who fretted over worker control back then and became worker toadies, today have kids who had a rough time growing up.

You got one thing dead right. A lot of people of my generation struggled with learning about the history.

Then I would say that you were quite lucky.  Maybe the workers laid off of you because you parents were elders.

My 10 year old son who had his hair long was was called on it.

Even my husband, who was at least in his 50's and whose hair was so curly it looked better a little longer, but not anything close even to to the '60's length was  asked by a sister worker, Didn't they have barbers where he lived?

PS.  How did you learn about the **TRUTH** in the '60's?

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 23:29:56 GMT -5 gecko45 said:

Jan 3, 2014 23:18:12 GMT -5 snow said:

I would say it's code for friends. The teachers are the workers, the students are the friends.

I would agree here. Have gotten some emails forwarded to me from those areas and the "students" are often some of the friends or contacts.


The "teachers" have "classes" and "students" attend. As time goes on the "teachers" tell how excited they are as the "students" are beginning to understand the "lessons" more and show keen interest in the "subject".


The NSA (and other country's security services), I am sure, are completely baffled 

This is why the foreign workers tell the North Americans that they are working in Vietnam in disguise: the teacher/student ruse.

It's little wonder they can't get things settled. They can't even state the problems openly and honestly, they can't have open and honest meetings (different meetings with different parties) among them and nobody will own up to responsibility for decisions (Dale is the top guy making decisions and you can be sure that his surprise over all these problems was feigned and the foreign brigade was nothing but a smokescreen).

It looks to me like Chau was victimized and bullied. He was ordered to do numerous things by Darrel and accused of home ownership and when he balked, the all of a sudden he was the bad guy who couldn't get along with the "teachers" ie Morris, Colin and Morris.

The teachers here need to go back to school and learn how to run a religion properly.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 23:37:59 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Jan 3, 2014 18:16:05 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Just ask me then. I was professing teen during the cultural shift of the 60's. I played sports competitively. I was High Student Council president. Didn't have Marine-style haircut. Played in band. Far more non-professing friends than professing friends and had lots of fun with them. Did all kinds of sports and travels with professing friends. Parents were Sunday and Wed elders. How many times was I accosted by workers over my lifestyle? Zero. No struggle. The closest thing to a worker confrontation was when someone told me that a worker asked her why my hair was so long! She said, "Dunno, ask him!". Now me and my professing friends are parents of those kids who are pretty relaxed, normal kids today. It's all connected.

A lot of those who fretted over worker control back then and became worker toadies, today have kids who had a rough time growing up.

You got one thing dead right. A lot of people of my generation struggled with learning about the history.

Then I would say that you were quite lucky.  Maybe the workers laid off of you because you parents were elders.

My 10 year old son who had his hair long was was called on it.

Even my husband, who was at least in his 50's and whose hair was so curly it looked better a little longer, but not anything close even to to the '60's length was  asked by a sister worker, Didn't they have barbers where he lived?

PS.  How did you learn about the **TRUTH** in the '60's?

Yes, I consider myself as being fortunate to have such a great childhood. I really don't know why we weren't approached by workers. Maybe my parents told workers to stay away from us, or maybe we were more confident than most friends. The idea that workers would try to micromanage people was completely foreign to me until adulthood.

I'm not sure what you mean about learning the "TRUTH" in the '60's. If you mean the history, I didn't know about it except that my father did mention about a sudden growth in the fellowship at the turn of the century which resulted in a "puritanistic" way of doing things. I think he may have been preparing me for potential conflict from our more liberal lifestyle but that conflict never came. I was aware of the "shores of Galilee" belief but it didn't mean anything to me as I didn't agree or disagree with it so when I got the full story of the beginnings, it had no effect on me except some relief that I knew the real story. As far as exclusivity goes, my older brother brought it up when he was about 17 and I was 15 and we both concluded that on pure and simple math alone, the meetings couldn't be the "only way" so I never bought fully into the idea of exclusivity either.

[minhthanh]

Jan 3, 2014 23:18:12 GMT -5 snow said:

Jan 3, 2014 22:18:52 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

What do the numbers in parenthesis refer to?

Who are the "students"? 

I would say it's code for friends. 

You are right, I was number it for explaining later... The teachers are the workers, the students are the friends.
Nothing in this Dale's letter was right for uncle Chau !...

[lazarus66]

My experience in corresponding with a man that was in VN was the same as the "code". I was warned to be careful in how I stated things. As I mentioned I saw the same thing, in statements like " a young man we have been teaching English to, made a very wise decision lately. I know that meant to profess.
Like Dennis, I have seen this kind of "treatment" from the same people as he did.
I find it so amazing that these workers get involved in real estate deals, like Eldon did for the sale of Gilroy (from what I have been led to understand), and yet I received a letter from Sydney Holt telling me that workers don't get involved in family finances. I have the letter, but when I post such things on here, they get deleted.

I do know that Jesus did not involve himself in such matters, and the workers claim to follow Jesus.
I guess I could say that I can fly, and if no one can dispute it, maybe I can fly.

I am not at all surprised by the deception, and love the "passing the buck" or blaming things on others. That way you will never get to the bottom of things.

It is heart breaking to see such dedicated young people and those in VN that are torn by this. I am sure they believe, as we once did, that the worker's way is the only way, and to go against them is to lose salvation. Only those that have walked away from this group can see that for sure, and the more distance, the clearer we see.

These men and women are deceiving and will reap their reward. It is a shame that they cause so much pain to so many before that happens.

Stay clear in your heart, stay true, and stay away from deceivers.......

[Deleted]

MT, Ma'am, your account has such a familiar ring to it, and having experienced so very much of the same, it is easy to believe and empathize with you! We are so glad things go better for you now, and wish you the very best in the future. I am facing back surgery because of the broken bones (untreated) sustained while in the work in Sweden. When I was in such original agony and asked for help of the overseer, no longer able for that work, or any work for over 6 months, I was told there didn't appear to him there was anything wrong with me and I could go to work and earn what I needed.

THUS, when I had to leave that work, I did so without even so much as one dollar given to me. (And not so much as one dollar in my pocket! I had to BORROW money to pay for my ticket back to the USA and BEG to be able to live for the first half year, and frequently sometimes since!)  It is they who ought to be embarrassed and ashamed at what they have put some of their most devout through in life, as they laugh all the way to their bank! So you can understand why we believe and understand.

Reposting this to make the added statement of how I got from Sweden back to the USA, and live there after, known to all.

SOME of these "teachers" to me, are also some of the most confusing in the entire world. Unfair, unjust, dishonest and unkind, even greedy. Sadly (to me anyway) it is usually the ones in highest places who are this type of person. (Spiritual wickedness in high places?) Yet they and their supporters have the routine audacity of faulting those of other denominational beliefs, as if they are not denominational themselves!  THAT is pure deception and deceit in one of its most devious forms!  

Expressing for myself and any who have been in my shoes, I would have loved to have been able to give credit where credit was due, it's just that NONE IS DUE! Not then, not now!

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 22:18:52 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

What do the numbers in parenthesis refer to?

Who are the "students"? 

Dales use of the words 'students' and 'teachers' is just a clear effort to support and perpetuate the obvious fraud they have engaged in, in the dishonest purposes they have given to authorities for foreign workers to get visas to be in the country. (as English teachers) This letter clearly illustrates that this is nothing but a very obvious fraud --- Why else would the term be used interchangeably with the ordinary 2x2 lingo just in this letter telling about expelling a worker from the work in Vietnam? Using cheaper 'code language' is part of underworld organizations such as the mafia etc -- Hardly fitting for anyone claiming Christianity.

This clearly shows the extent of dishonesty 2x2ism is willing to go to to grab and retain power to control their organization. I find this quite shameful within an organization claiming Christianity and an interest in truth ... and I am quite flabbergasted at the support that this clear, incontestable dishonesty has received from 2x2 membership -- even those on this board!!!!

This open deception by leading figures within the organization makes me quite ashamed of my 2x2 roots. When I was young, I was led to believe that truth was important within the group.

[sharingtheriches]

Just some of the scriptures coming into being...is what I feel! I do not like the way things are handled and how the workers can debase any other worker that has spent multitude of years trying to spread the word of the Gospel of Christ!

But when we consider that one overseer actually wrote what the tenets of the workers' belief being ONLY: The 2x2 itinerant ministry and the mtgs. in the home!

Where is Jesus in all of that? Seems Jesus was swept out the door in the workers' effort to control a religion of their making.....they are facing some very harsh judgment according to the scriptures! Are they not said to be responsible for the people who they've led into wrong beliefs and actions? Is not the blood of their converts and church on their heads? Wouldn't this serve to humble them? One would think so!

I have NOTHING against the 2x2 itinerant ministry NOR meetings in the home....I don't think that they are the only ones who are worshipping in like manner....home mtgs. are becoming the most preferred way of group worship! People like that close connection to a "few" instead of more then a few in a large church, which often goes up beyond 1000 members!

I had an uncle who never professed that I know of...but he would marry a woman and he could easily go with her to whatever church she so desired...he was a talented woodworker and the churches loved him because they could get him to do the work and it would look like they'd paid high dollars for that woodwork. But when this uncle lay dying, his sister and I stepped back from the bedside while some nurse was suctioning out some mucus and moving him about into a more comfortable position to aid his respiratory efforts.

This sister began saying how sad she felt that this man had never gave the 2x2 religion much thought or time and how bad it was that he felt free to go into all his different wives' churches and do work for them and he did it with ease! Professingk I agreed with her and since I've felt completely and disgustingly sorry that I went along with her "judgment" of him.....these days I can see why the man c ould give freely wherever he found himself...He had the love of Jesus in his heart and life. (Btw, he had 5 wives and the last woman would not marry him, but they lived as husband and wife....she had a railroad retirement from her first husband and would have lost that if she had married) Only two of the wives went to the same church! That was his last church he did lots of woodworking for....

[minhthanh]

3355 D Street
Hayward, CA 94541-4565
April 28, 2012

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

I have been asked to outline the involvement of Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento and myself during our visit to your country in March of 2010. I had been invited by Jim Chafee to Hong Kong, China and Mongolia for a visit. Because we had teachers in your country whom I knew well, I was anxious to also visit there while in the east. After arrangements were made for me to spend two weeks in your land, I began to hear about some problems there involving Chau.
(1) (Uncle Hoa had heard Darrel reporting to uncle Dale during a month, and we was informed before the gathering a month, with me this was the first lie in uncle Dale's letter)

The teachers in your country were anxious (The teachers in my country was going on his or her made up stories to the highest overseer ...) that I would help in resolving these problems. I was only going to be there for two weeks and I was going with very little background information conceming the teachers and students in your country. I didn't want to attempt to sort through these problems alone, so I was in touch with Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson and Tsutomu Miyata regarding this trip and the issues that were a concern. It was arranged that Tsutomu and Simeon would be there with me during the first week of my time in your land.

We visited with the local men teachers (including Hoa) concerning Chau. Tsutomu, Simeon and I then visited with Chau. We found Chau quite open to direction and help and we discussed the problem areas that had been presented to us. Later, Darrel,
Morris and Hoa were added to the discussion group and a good spirit prevailed in our visiting together. Chau committed himself to correcting some things which he had practiced in the past. Because Chau was still in the midst of getting the family property
transferred to new owners and disposing of the proceeds thereof, we suggested that he take a leave of absence from being active in the ministry until these business affairs were all finalized.
(2) (Untrue explaining, just for the one who didn't know that all the business affairs were finished three months before. Uncle Chau didn't do any works more... till he was back to the work !...)

We also anticipated that he could use this period of time to establish a better relationship with the staff in general. (Their main purpose) We were very impressed with Chau's attitude during our time with him (Uncle Chau attitude always the same) and our expectation was that the relationship between himself and others on the teaching staff would improve and trust between them would be deepened over the few months that Chau would be completing these business affairs.
(3)( How the relationship be deepened if one side "overseer" was trying to drive a wedge between F&W !...)

I would like to add here that Hoa was very helpful during these visits. (Of course uncle Hoa always want to be a helpful with God's work, but when he saw the happening was going wrong... not under the Spirit of God's leading. Special what Darrel said to his staff in the workers meeting... , that the reason why he had stopped cooperate with them.)

I remember two occasions during our discussions when Hoa made suggestions which we gladly followed. He had the advantage of having been a close friend of Chau for many years.

We all were concerned that the very best results could be realized for the teachers and students in your country and for Chau's future as well.

After returning to California, I became aware that our anticipated "improved relationship" between Chau and other teaching staff members was not happening. In fact, it seemed like the relationship was becoming more strained again. (4) (With the report from Darrel, he was very good in made up stories.)

The time came when the business affairs concerning the family property were all completed (5)( I want to shout again "A lie explaining"...) but it seemed that there was very little desire to reinstate Chau to an active role on the teaching staff. (What was they really wanted !... Right after the annoucing meeting, one elder sister, who teaching Vietnamese for Darrel phoned to my husband that "What a pity for brother Chau, he didn't know that it's hard and far for him to back into the work". This lady was very good person for Darrel to spread made up story from Darrel. They had close relationship, her daughter is a young worker.)
It also seenned that little effort was being made to try to help him with whatever was perceived to be the remaining obstacles to that happening. Because the relationship between Chau and the teaching staff, as well as the relationship between Chau and a sizable section of the students, had not been adequately dealt with; the possibility of Chau starting immediately in Vietnam was hardly an option. (5) (started to drive uncle Chau out of the country.) I was then in touch with Jim Girton and Ernest Robinson, wondering if they would favor an attempt to have Chau come to California to labor with our staff for as long a time period as a visa would permit. It was thought that it would be very beneficial for Chau to gain experience working (6)(He had experience learning from Jesus through many years) with a larger staff of teachers and would give him opportunity to understand better how teachers (7), and being a good worker for God's work), young and old, work in harmony together; respecting each others  fields of responsibility and collectively covering the needs of all of the students. (He had to respect young workers while they didn't respect him. We had read an email from a young sister worker sent to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother Chau... Deleted it... Don't let his email bother your mind".)

If Chau functioned well in California, this would in turn build up the confidence of the local teachers and students, so that he could later retum with the full support of all. Jim and Ernest sanctioned this plan. We obtained the services of a respected immigration attorney here in California and were surprised when two attempts under this attorney's guidance and direction resulted in two refusals from American Immigration.

Following this, the decision was made by the overseers closer to your land that Jim Girton, Keith Olsen and Jiwhan Yu woukJ visit your country to try to sort out the problem that was there and hopefully come up with a plan that would work towards a solution. It was during their visit to your land that my brother, Lyie, was approached concerning coming to your country to help. Since that time, Lyie, Lloyd Morgan, Jim Girton, Ernest Robinson, Keith Olsen (until he passed away) and Jiwhan Yu have included me in much of the communication concerning events and issues in your country.

My thoughts and heart have very much been following the events there and hoping for "better days." (8)(If we all obey  him, even things were wrong.) The above description pretty much covers my more direct involvement, including that of Tsutomu Miyata and Simeon Sarmiento, with the issues which concern both yourselves and those of us who look on from a distance. .

As you know, Chau has again been reinstated to a teaching role and is helping Lloyd in Cambodia. We are thankful that he has this further opportunity. Much remains to be done in order that the divisions that have developed in your country can be resolved. (9) (They must consolidation their throne first.)

Much also needs to take place in order for most of the teaching staff and many of the students in your country to have confidence in Chau again. (10)( Uncle Chau will have confidence again if he put his labor under their rule, instead of under the leading of Jesus in the Bible.) We are as anxious to see that happen as you are and we will continue to work patiently with the staff, students and Chau to that end. However, this effort requires your full cooperation. We appeal to all of you to work closely and cooperatively with Lyie and Lloyd. This is the order that our great teacher honors and blesses and is the only hope of unity and joy being restored in fullest measure.

This letter has been compiled with the help and full agreement of Tsutomu Miyata, Simeon Sarmiento, Ernest Robinson and Jim Girton.

Your friend and brother,
Dale Shultz

[Mary]

What is the date of this letter?

[Deleted]

Jan 5, 2014 1:46:14 GMT -5 Mary said:

What is the date of this letter?

There is a date at the top of the page!

[lazarus66]

I think that the workers in developed countries are seeing the total lack of need for them. Where they once went and preached, they now just sit back, and try to control all things. They also realize they are losing control, so they must step up and create problems for them to solve.
I am really amazed how they can call themselves "servants of God" and out of the same mouth, lie straight to your face.
I think the workers in America, Canada, Europe, Australia and NZ, and some other places that are more developed, could learn a lot from VN people and workers.
The workers are no longer servants, but taskmasters. We have seen such deception in so many cases. Jerome Frandle, Bill Denk, Jeff Thayer, and far too many to name.

I would think that these men could seek repentance and do right by the people, but they are so used to their elevated status, that they simply can not humble themselves to do the right thing.

I know there are "hot spots" and we don't hear much about other places, but know that they are all in league. Some may be more honest than others, but just as in anything when you see wrong and do nothing to report or correct it, you are as guilty as those that commit the wrong.

After Jeff Thayer left Iowa, he is now laying low, but still an overseer in another state. He divided the people here in Iowa, and many left, and he was involved with a woman that he had no right in being involved with for two reasons. One, he was the overseer, and two she was 3 or 4 times divorced.

This is the status quo for the workers now. Those that we think have clean hands are assisting the others that we know don't have clean hands to hide their deeds that are not right.

Can any professing tell me how a person can be excommunicated on a rumor, one that is false and was never investigated, and a worker that is in photos doing worse things is just moved to another state?

This kind of behavior disturbs those that seek truth in VN, as I have found most of the common people, ordinary folks that are very humble and honest. They do not like lies or deceit.
Now in order to be involved with the 2x2 church, they must swallow lies and live in untruth or leave.

Indeed a sad day and like Edgar says, I am ashamed of my 2x2 roots. I can't believe that I once agreed with these people and spread the lies and gossip as well as the deception.

I would like to see, for the most part, the people, like those I know, take control, stop supporting the workers, and turn to truth. I had written return to truth, but since the 2x2 way was created on lies, the truth never got to close to their dealings.

They rule in fear. Don't the devils fear and tremble. These men are so arrogant they don't even tremble.

I hope for peace for VN..............Dale

[Mary]

Jan 5, 2014 5:53:14 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Jan 5, 2014 1:46:14 GMT -5 Mary said:

What is the date of this letter?

There is a date at the top of the page!

Ok thanks. I couldn't see for looking!! I must need a new pair of glasses!!

[openingact34]

Jan 4, 2014 23:46:00 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

We had read an email from a young sister worker sent to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother Chau... Deleted it... Don't let his email bother your mind"

Unfortunately that sounds very familiar as well.

Though I've been out over 10 years now, I can remember these type of instructions being given out in the 1990s where I grew up.
Being instructed to burn letters from certain people without opening them, burn any books or literature sent to you...etc.

Very sad to hear people still being asked to disown and cut all contact, even with their own family.

[lazarus66]

Unfortunately this is the workers brand of fear. Fear of losing salvation, fear of losing family, fear of being shunned.
Those are powerful things to put on a person, and as I have said before, I hope there is a special place in hell for those workers.

I would like to see them repent and I could be forgiving, but when they have the audacity to do what they do in the name of God, I have no sympathy for them.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 0:55:10 GMT -5 openingact34 said:

Jan 4, 2014 23:46:00 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

We had read an email from a young sister worker sent to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother Chau... Deleted it... Don't let his email bother your mind"

Unfortunately that sounds very familiar as well.

Though I've been out over 10 years now, I can remember these type of instructions being given out in the 1990s where I grew up.
Being instructed to burn letters from certain people without opening them, burn any books or literature sent to you...etc.

Very sad to hear people still being asked to disown and cut all contact, even with their own family.

With this kind of 'stab in the back' policy within the group it is clear that 2x2ism has discarded Chaus service completely regardless what they may say otherwise -- This makes Dale S 'try to sound optimistic' comments about him nothing but a complete hypocrisy and a text book example of deceit.


The somewhat updated 'Vietnam development page'

[stargazer]

I have nothing to contribute regarding this thread, although, as an aside for the fellowship, the titles "teacher" and "student" have a certain appeal to me as opposed to the implied capitalization of "worker" and "friend" labels we use, although I suspect with time we might begin to imply capitalized "teacher" and "friend".

[CherieKropp]

Jan 6, 2014 10:34:05 GMT -5 stargazer said:

I have nothing to contribute regarding this thread, although, as an aside for the fellowship, the titles "teacher" and "student" have a certain appeal to me as opposed to the implied capitalization of "worker" and "friend" labels we use, although I suspect with time we might begin to imply capitalized "teacher" and "friend".

I think the title of "teacher" was used in case Dale's letter came to the attention of the government. The workers/preachers are allowed to be in VN to teach--and not to preach. The law states that Foreigners can only preach to foreigners--not to natives.  Being natives, Chau and Hoa can preach to anyone.

Mr. Bau wrote:  By early 1990s the government opened the door, these 2 workers Morris Grovum and Darrel Turner from Canada could stay in Vietnam (under the name of learning, teaching or working... but not preaching). The word “overseer” was first heard by us by this time.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 10:50:57 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Jan 6, 2014 10:34:05 GMT -5 stargazer said:

I have nothing to contribute regarding this thread, although, as an aside for the fellowship, the titles "teacher" and "student" have a certain appeal to me as opposed to the implied capitalization of "worker" and "friend" labels we use, although I suspect with time we might begin to imply capitalized "teacher" and "friend".

I think the title of "teacher" was used in case Dale's letter came to the attention of the government. The workers/preachers are allowed to be in VN to teach--and not to preach. The law states that Foreigners can only preach to foreigners--not to natives.  Being natives, Chau and Hoa can preach to anyone.

Mr. Bau wrote:  By early 1990s the government opened the door, these 2 workers Morris Grovum and Darrel Turner from Canada could stay in Vietnam (under the name of learning, teaching or working... but not preaching). The word “overseer” was first heard by us by this time.

I doubt that they would be allowed in to "teach" religion to local citizens. I suspect that Mr. Bau means they are allowed in as university students or to teach something secular like English. (That's probably what you are getting at here).

[stargazer]

Jan 6, 2014 11:09:24 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 6, 2014 10:50:57 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

I think the title of "teacher" was used in case Dale's letter came to the attention of the government. The workers/preachers are allowed to be in VN to teach--and not to preach. The law states that Foreigners can only preach to foreigners--not to natives.  Being natives, Chau and Hoa can preach to anyone.

Mr. Bau wrote:  By early 1990s the government opened the door, these 2 workers Morris Grovum and Darrel Turner from Canada could stay in Vietnam (under the name of learning, teaching or working... but not preaching). The word “overseer” was first heard by us by this time.

I doubt that they would be allowed in to "teach" religion to local citizens. I suspect that Mr. Bau means they are allowed in as university students or to teach something secular like English. (That's probably what you are getting at here).

My comment was not a comment about the reason for the use of those words in Vietnam but simply about it's use in general for workers and friends.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2014 11:16:43 GMT -5 stargazer said:

Jan 6, 2014 11:09:24 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I doubt that they would be allowed in to "teach" religion to local citizens. I suspect that Mr. Bau means they are allowed in as university students or to teach something secular like English. (That's probably what you are getting at here).

My comment was not a comment about the reason for the use of those words in Vietnam but simply about it's use in general for workers and friends.

Yes, I figured that sg. I was commenting on Cherie's post.

Personally, I don't like the teacher/student nomenclature as long as workers are unclear about their teaching boundaries as well as the limitations of their own knowledge.

[CherieKropp]

The bolded part of Dale's letter really makes me see red! My comments are in RED.  There was mutiny among the workers and mutiny among the friends...all because of one man, Chau, trying to following his call and be guided by the Spirit.

Chau was given Conditions for Fellowship.  He was told he had to regain the approval of the worker staff; and to settle down his loyal followers and get them to be submissive to the foreign overseers again...before he would be allowed re-enter the worker. 

The time came when the business affairs concerning the family property were all completed (5)( I want to shout again "A lie explaining"...) but it seemed that there was very little desire to reinstate Chau to an active role on the teaching staff.  (What was they really wanted !... Right after the annoucing meeting, one elder sister, who teaching Vietnamese for Darrel phoned to my husband that "What a pity for brother Chau, he didn't know that it's hard and far for him to back into the work". (Comment shows the deck was stacked against him from the beginning) This lady was very good person for Darrel to spread made up story from Darrel. They had close relationship, her daughter is a young worker.)

It also seemed that little effort was being made to try to help him (MT has recorded written posts concerning a whole lot of effort by the workers that was made to PREVENT Chau from selling the home--owned by his brother!) with whatever was perceived to be the remaining obstacles to that happening. Because the relationship between Chau and the teaching staff, as well as the relationship between Chau and a sizable section of the students, had not been adequately dealt with; the possibility of Chau starting immediately in Vietnam was hardly an option.  (See commentary at end)

I was then in touch with Jim Girton and Ernest Robinson, wondering if they would favor an attempt to have Chau come to California to labor with our staff for as long a time period as a visa would permit. It was thought that it would be very beneficial for Chau to gain experience working with a larger staff of teachers and would give him opportunity to understand better how teachers, young and old, work in harmony together; respecting each others fields of responsibility and collectively covering the needs of all of the students. (He had to respect young workers while they didn't respect him. We had read an email from a young sister worker sent to his brother said "Whenever you received emails from brother Chau... Deleted it... Don't let his email bother your mind".)  The old "respect of fields" thing again. Even tho foreign workers weren't allowed to go into many areas of VN--when Chau & Hoa could. 

If Chau functioned well in California, this would in turn build up the confidence of the local teachers and students, so that he could later return with the full support of all. Jim and Ernest sanctioned this plan. We obtained the services of a respected immigration attorney here in California and were surprised when two attempts under this attorney's guidance and direction resulted in two refusals from American Immigration.

So to recap the above, Chau was put on probation.  The VN workers had been turned against Chau by their foreign overseers.  Many hearty long-time professing friends continued to make waves by taking up for Chau (letters, phone calls, visits, requests for meetings, etc.) and helping to supporting him in various ways. And the friends action's made it "hardly an option" for Chau to be a VN worker.? Ridiculous!

Chau should be judged on his own merits. Dale is putting the blame on Chau's supporters for Chau not being allowed to stay in the work!  They probably told Chau he better get these people settled down and submissive or else: Goodbye Chau. And we know that Chau tried.  MT wrote some about Chau going to various ones and begging them to submit to the Overseers, but they would not.  Chau was between a rock and a hard place.  Eventually he was required to cut all ties with his long-time loyal followers and supporters--if he wanted to continue in the work.  What heartache for both!   

Sounds like the overseers unanticipated problem was that the peons (students/friends) didnt just accept the dictator's decision and rose up against the powerful dictator's rule.  And this brought out the bear in the forceful dictator. He hardened his heart and decided to show the friends who was who and what was what!  Forget about love, being guided by the Spirit and Chau and his supporters. What matters is that the overseers retain their absolute dictatorship and save face.

It appears that a lot of this contention concerns workers preaching only in designated territories or fields. Shades of Edward Cooney!  WHICH IS NOT EVEN A BIBLICAL INSTRUCTION for the ministry!  Chau was put out for not following a manmade rule/tradition for organization in a group that claims they are not an organization!

Also notice how Dale glosses over the selling of Chau's home...which wasnt even owned by Chau!  And which had been sold 3 months before putting Chau out of the work. 

Obviously I'm a little bent out of shape over this high handed letter of explanation that leaves out so much, glosses over errors, and contains no apology or regret. I wonder if it helped whatever Dale was trying to help--or if it just made things worse?

[Deleted]

Sounds about right Cherie. Your post deserves the red!! When I first read the letter, I felt like I had just eaten a greasy hamburger that was past its Best Before date.