Vietnam

[Deleted]

Dec 26, 2013 12:48:40 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Dec 26, 2013 12:33:30 GMT -5 @clearday said:

It is better to simply live a modest, moderate life than to worry about how people are branding you.

Yes, you must worry... you don't the outsiders branding the friends as the second to the Amish! Nobody wants to be with a fellowship that is NOT up to date with the time. The friends and workers can live modest life, an average lifestyle with inwards beauty to back it up and that is the most important thing in life as Christians.

1 Peter 3:1-4

Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. Do not let your adornment be merely outward—arranging the hair, wearing gold, or putting on fine apparel— rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God.

If you live modestly and moderately, you won't look like the Amish. They are extremists. So no, there is no need to worry about what others think of how you dress.

[Sylvestra]

Dec 26, 2013 4:32:53 GMT -5 lazarus66 said:

In my 58 years of life in the 2x2s from age 5, I never heard much about inward things, that would make inward changes. All I heard was outward things would bring ab out inward changes. That is not even right and is no where in the bible. If the inward man were changed, that should bring about inward changes, but how do we know this is happening. How can the workers look at people and say "this one does this with their hair and that one does this with their clothes" and from this they judge "How a person is doing spiritually?" Not what I read.

Nathan, I now can see your inner conflict about what you feel the 2x2 church was,
as presented to you, and what it really is, now that you have had these experiences.

In my 58 years of life in the 2x2s from age 5, I never heard much about

inward things, that would make inward changes. All I heard was

outward things would bring ab out inward changes. That is not even

right and is no where in the bible. If the inward man were changed,

that should bring about inward changes, but how do we know this is

happening. How can the workers look at people and say "this one

does this with their hair and that one does this with their clothes" and

from this they judge "How a person is doing spiritually?" Not what I

read.

Nathan, I now can see your inner conflict about what you feel the 2x2

church was, as presented to you, and what it really is, now that you

have had these experiences.

The men like William Irvine, Jack Carrol and John Walker knew that

they had to have a way to control the people, and they found that fear

was the greatest tool for them. They present the 2x2s as "the only

way" and then they hold the keys to the door to get in or to be locked

out. They had to establish the rules that showed on the outside, like

the women and their hair, and the men's clothes as well as the

women, and They used that as their measuring stick.

I have been to the convention where Jack Carrol is buried, and the

workers are very adamant about people visiting his grave. Why?
How many men in the bible that were key figures have grave sites that

need to be visited. You can't even find mention of it. In the new

testament, the tombs and graves are not important as in the OT.
Even in the OT, the tombs were only a place where the bones of the

person were. They were not shrines, like the workers would have you

to believe that Jack Carrol's grave site is.

I know that people can see in the bible where there were problems

with people and things back then, but not problems like "overseer"

problems. Paul would write and give instruction on how best to follow,

but he did not use the fear of a person not looking right on the outside

as a marker of how a person was doing. If you read about the hair

issues for men and women, you will notice that Paul says "we have no

customs, neither the churches." Why was that. Perhaps it was a thing

of the times. Like in the 1960's here, long hair on men was preached

about at convention, gospel meetings, and all meetings, but it was not

important and needed not even be mentioned.
Once again, the one's that started the new 2x2 church were reaching

out from the grave with their controlling ideas.

I read about the "golden years' in VN, and I think that those were

special times where the ones there were as close as man can get to

following the bible, but still even then, there were so many rules from

the originators of the church, like the hair, and dress codes.

I read now about how they in VN are not supposed to "lend money"

and how they ride old motorcycles while the workers ride the nice

newer bikes.
In the Acts, Stephen was appointed to take care of the widows and the

poor. Did that not mean to use money to make their lives easier as the

wage earner was either too old to earn a living or were dead.
I also read about the servant. Was the servant to come in from the

fields of labor and have the master wait on him to feed him?
The Golden Years are gone, due to the Canadian overseers need for

power and importance. Along with the Golden Years, they have taken

what ever spirit was existing also.

Nathan, now you see why so many of us have left. We are not sheep

that will follow the one leading us into a ditch. We have had our eyes

opened to see that the overseers, workers and the rules are the most

important. As I mention, I spent nearly 53 years, and can honestly say

that I heard about all the rules and how following the rules and

patterning yourself after the workers would bring peace.
That is not what people that want to follow the bible and truth, seek.

When we find that our "golden years" were all just rules and learning

how to look, and nothing inside, it was so empty. No substance and

there will not be substance as long as the overseers and workers put

the importance on themselves.

You can quote many scriptures, I am sure, that may justify some of

this, but if you look at it simply as a whole, you will find what those of

us that left found. Nothing of substance.

I hope that the people in VN can regain the "Golden Years" and make

the workers in Canada and everywhere else see that the substance is

inside and can not, nor should it be measured by men, workers,

overseers or any other man.

I hope for the best for those in VN............

Laz, I think you are right on target here.....can't disagree with much you've said!

[snow]

Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Dec 26, 2013 12:35:17 GMT -5 snow said:

Sorry Nathan but 2x2 women were out of style when I was young in the 60's. Here we are in a next century and they still don't look much different from when I was growing up. There are a few exceptions, but the norm is still the same as when I was growing up. I can pick out most professing women anywhere just like a can pick out a hutterite or Amish. Sister workers especially.

While you may be correct with sister workers, you are not quite correct with professing women. I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it. You are only recognizing the ones who still look like the ones you knew in the sixties, which is still a fair number of them, mostly older ones.

Which is why I worded it 'I can pick out MOST professing women anywhere'. I do recognize that there are those that do not stick out like they used to. I know some. But as you say, and I also said, the norm is still to dress like they did when I was young and they are easily recognizable in a crowd.

[gecko45]

The ones that you wouldn't recognize in a shopping mall because of their manner of dress are the same ones that will get the condescending glare from some friends and workers.


When someone would complain about the way young people (mostly girls) were dressing I would say that I judge people by their spirit.

Depending on how self righteous they, who said it were, I would often phrase my response in such a way that suggested that by looking only on the outward signs; they were not sensitive to the spirit.

A phrase like, (said in my most condescending tone)



"Huumpf?? I never noticed their outfit. I......

generally judge people on their spirit". 


Usually works well on the self-righteous.

[sharingtheriches]

Dec 26, 2013 12:58:58 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5 @clearday said:

While you may be correct with sister workers, you are not quite correct with professing women. I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it. You are only recognizing the ones who still look like the ones you knew in the sixties, which is still a fair number of them, mostly older ones.

Yes, you are correct, many of the older sisters are outdated/reserve with their style of clothing, the younger sisters and professing women are dressing with the average normal fashion of the day. In the world, the non-2x2 women wear the old fashion clothes, which they feel comfortable for them to wear, I believe likewise with our senior sister workers.

Well, I actually expect the 2x2 women WILL look like the fashionable women of the day....there are so many loose sloppy clothes at the top of the "fashion" of the day...it is really sickening....I think the mid-eastern women in their robes are far more preferable then today's styles! But I suspect that the workers might just begin to "okay" the present day fashion....I can almost see in my mind all those sister workers standing on the platforms of convs. here and there with clothing far more sloppy then they wore in the 60's but the workers will be right in that the women of the 2x2 are up to today's standards of fashion!

[minhthanh]

After the agreement between three of us, we closed the door not contact with the buyer, although there was one lady who wanted a house in urgent, and she wanted to buy with a higher price !...
(We reduced the price for good purpose).
Just three of us knowing the house was selling…


Six months later… After the gathering for announcing for uncle Châu.

There was the time for special meeting again, It was also the time for Darrel to develop to a high degree his power, especially with uncle Hoa. Darrel ordered uncle Hoa to obey him, even thing was not nessesary before many F&W for bringing shame to Hoa. (such as just to name Darrel had a big box fixed behind every worker’s motorbike. It was too clumsy to uncle Hoa to ride it, because he was small so one time he removed it. Immediately Darrel scolded him in front of the group of workers and friends and forced him to install it back)
 

Uncle Hoa knew for well, after uncle Châu… it would be his turn. I didn’t know what Darrel had said in the workers meeting (I was not a worker), From that meeting Uncle Hoa determined to stop cooperate with Darrel…

We were filled with terror to hear uncle Hoa phoning, explaining his decision, continued labor as before… We were crying.

Even uncle Chau received information from us, he phoned to uncle Hoa just only saying “May God be with you”.

Uncle Hoa asked us to send his Heart Letter to everybody after he was leaving… to go somewhere in order not to contact anyone for a brief period of time.

Remembering the sister friend had the purpose of buying my house, God had poured comfort into my heart, that God knows all, He knows His servants’ needs and reserved a place for uncle Hoa.

I had explained to uncle Hoa our discussing with Mrs Mai (the lady bought my house) just one month before, now the house was offered to God’ work, for the workers living.

After hearing our convincing uncle Hoa to stay in the offered house without any connecting F&W instead of hiding somewhere as he wanted..

Relate this matter I feel painfull… tear come again… so it is better for me to close here, I’ll continue when I am stabilized.

[quizzer]

Dec 25, 2013 0:05:22 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Four months later… On July 2010


With a great pleasure uncle Châu had announced to us about uncle Dale’s decision for him

“ … went back into the field, you could choose labor in VN or USA.”

The reply from uncle Châu “I’ll go where ever you arrange for me.”

The arrangement from uncle Dale was “Go to USA” Of course uncle Châu was very happy to have a place in the work, going to USA was a big privilege for him too, because a lot of Vietnamese friends living in USA, and almost his relatives also living there.

While we were happy with this news, there was another news from Darrel staff that “Uncle Chau had to go to USA to learn how to labor in the work !...”

Surprised with the explaining from the workers at my field, I had asked uncle Châu…

His answer was “I don’t need to learn anything from anyone, I only learn from Jesus how to do and labor…”


Uncle Dale hired a lawyer to handle the paperwork for uncle Chau. The first interview by the USA consulate failed. They continued to do the paperwork again… Uncle Châu was directed carefully in details from American lawyer. (Uncle Châu returned to my house to talk with the lawyer from the guest room, because the old friend didn’t have wireless at his house.) The second interview failed, too.

To me, It seemed God disagreed with their arrangement for uncle Chau going to USA. We were happy that he would stay and labor in VN as uncle Dale had said in the beginning “where do you want to labor ? VN or USA.”

Actually things happened not as they arranged and wanted. They didn’t allow uncle Châu back to the work in VN as uncle Dale inform uncle Chau.

This is the first time I saw two faces in a matter from uncle Dale…

minhthanh, if it helps any, we used to have an ex-worker post on TMB. He worked in the islands, and was very friendly with the people. He was sent back to the USA, because his overseer felt that he wasn't "balanced." In other words, he needed to spend time in the USA - under the control of the overseers - to have "balance" in the work. Being out on the islands, being friendly, having no control for the overseers - was seen as "wrong."

I'm sorry that you're seeing the same problem that we have had for many, many years.

[lazarus66]

minhthanh, I say follow your heart and what the spirit leads you to. The spirit will not cause tears or conflict. Men, like the workers from Canada, that want to have you bend to their ways are not right with God.
I think that if you can get back to the Golden years, you are on the right path. Do what it takes.
Do not let these me lead you astray. Let the spirit lead you. The bible says to try the spirits, and you have described that you and many others have done that with the Canadian workers, and found them lacking in spirit.

I know these men, and I have left the group because of them. I will not follow or associate with crooked men that go against God's wishes. I hope you will do the same.

[lazarus66]

As for the dress codes for women, not workers, I was amazed at what I saw at my last convention. I like to see women that dress with some modesty, everywhere. If I want to see "everything" there are places I can go to do that.

I was amazed to see women with tight fitting tops, and clothes that I would never have expected to see at convention.

I went back to college in 2007, and didn't see the girls there dress in such fashion. I may be an old fashioned guy, but please, even when I was young, I wanted to have something left to the imagination.

This was in about 2005 or '06. I can say that many have left the group, so maybe that was the rebellion stage for them. I don't know, but I was shocked.

As for the sister workers, they draw too much attention with their "dowdy" dressing, so they may as well go Amish on the church.

[minhthanh]

Dec 28, 2013 7:23:01 GMT -5 lazarus66 said:

minhthanh, I say follow your heart and what the spirit leads you to. The spirit will not cause tears or conflict. Men, like the workers from Canada, that want to have you bend to their ways are not right with God.
I think that if you can get back to the Golden years, you are on the right path. Do what it takes.
Do not let these men lead you astray. Let the spirit lead you. The bible says to try the spirits, and you have described that you and many others have done that with the Canadian workers, and found them lacking in spirit.

I know these men, and I have left the group because of them. I will not follow or associate with crooked men that go against God's wishes. I hope you will do the same.

Thank you, Lazarus66.

I do agree with your thought… through my own experience God help me knowing more about their activity, also know how to serve God, in His will, by The Spirit of God leading.

All I have posted here not because I want to have fellowship with them again, although there are many good friends still be there. I don’t want to serve God with doubt and not sastifaction as some of our friends still be there. Last night I had a little meal with a sister, she is still in their felowship but disagrees with many things they have done… And this morning I heard another friend going to have a convention in Campuchia with a very heavy heart !...

As my friend request, I would like everybody knowing and understanding the true things happening only. And I do hope the overseers and workers not repeat it again in another place.

Many things I have posted here, even F&W in VN never know it, bad things always being hided and covered with a beautiful in the surface !...

Thanks for God having opened for us through the internet, and we could understand and be comforted because of our friends in many other places throughout the world having the same experiences.

We have had a very sweet & lovely fellowship meeting this morning. After these experiences all fellowship with God more precious, even we have few or many friends, we all had the same spirit, the unity and love to God, and friends.

I fell comforted with our Bilble study at home in

1 John 2

New International Version (NIV)

2: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

[Scott Ross]

We have had a very sweet & lovely fellowship meeting this morning. After these experiences all fellowship with God more precious, even we have few or many friends, we all had the same spirit, the unity and love to God, and friends.

That is nice to hear!

[lazarus66]

minhthanh, I am sorry for the conflict that these men bring. Truth is simple. God is not the author of confusion and these men seek to confuse things to make it look like what they do is right.
I am glad you seem to know what to follow. I would hope that more of the F&Ws in VN would return to truth as they once did.
I know that they deceive, even the government to come there to take power. God has the power. These men have power here on earth over certain ones. These men will have to account for that. The mislead and cause spiritual harm to even those just starting out.
It says in the bible that it is better for a millstone to be hanged around their necks and they be cast into the sea than to offend the least of the people.
Patience and following the spirit is the answer to what they do.

I wish you peace in your heart, and for all your people there in VN. Do not let these men steal that peace............Dale

[minhthanh]

When the things happened, no one understood the matter, puzzled and wanted to consult uncle Hoa who stayed with Darrel at that time. My father called at him but he didn’t say a word. I sent email to him and raised many questions but he only answered one utterance : “Who planted what, will reap” .Uncle Hoa was telling little. Uncle Châu was easy to be close but everybody esteemed uncle Hoa, who filled with Spirit of God in his words and deeds.


So when he decided to release cái tròng (similar a yoke or a collar), it was a great shock to Darrel and his staff. Everything was entangled, which no one knew where it would go!...
when uncle Hoa still led a secluded life at my house in Dalat, there were 3 overseers from Philippines, Korea and Parkistan coming to solve the problem.

They wanted to listen to every individual worker. But now I know clearly that they(workers) dare not tell the truth. Because if they had told the truth, they would have opposed the staff and been dismissed.
The three overseers also contacted some friends and Cường ( a Vietnamese young brother worker) always accompanied them for translating. Some friends who supported the two local workers didn’t trust this man in translating for them sincerely, because he was the right arm of Darrel,and helpfull to uncle Lyle now. He was arranged to hear everything then when returning report to Darrel. Some friends said that they didn’t trust the translations of some Vietnamese workers were true… even I myself didn’t ,too… I was trying to talke with my poor English !...

My family especially received these overseers two times because they knew my family relating closely to these two local workers. During one time of talking, uncle Jim (Philippine overseer) asked me about uncle Hoa. Uncle Jim was very gentle and he had come to Vietnam during the golden time, he valued the mindset of God’s people.

Respecting him, I sincerely told him about the house in Dalat. As for me, it was a wonderful thing God made provision for uncle Hoa. (at that time we just agreed with each other and I hadn’t received money from the selling of the house in Dalat, and didn’t let other people know until all had done).
After finishing talking, uncle Jim was very glad. He said that he worried for uncle Hoa and now he was calm and happy…

So besides three of us(my husband and I and sister Mai), Now, the four workers knew about the house reserved for workers...

A short period of time after these overseers returned their countries, we received a phone call from Mrs Mai at Phu Quốc island… “I didn’t know why the two sister workers coming to my house and asked if I was forced to buy the house in Dalat. These workers persuaded me not buying the house too... I feel tired and didn't want to talk with them...”

Things became more entangled. I didn’t know why and who sent these sister workers to interfer in the selling & buying our house…my daughter was outraged…and would like to bring the workers to court



r

[quizzer]

Dec 30, 2013 20:15:26 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

They wanted to listen to every individual worker. But now I know clearly that they(workers) dare not tell the truth. Because if they had told the truth, they would have opposed the staff and been dismissed.
The three overseers also contacted some friends and Cường ( a Vietnamese young brother worker) always accompanied them for translating. Some friends who supported the two local workers didn’t trust this man in translating for them sincerely, because he was the right arm of Darrel,and helpfull to uncle Lyle now. He was arranged to hear everything then when returning report to Darrel. Some friends said that they didn’t trust the translations of some Vietnamese workers were true… even I myself didn’t ,too… I was trying to talke with my poor English !...

Is this a new development - where the native language must be translated into English for the foreign workers? I've heard that the workers study the native language, and work sometimes as English teachers. This seems so wrong - the foreign workers (especially if they're going to be overseers) should be fluent in the native language and use the native language (not English) to communicate with the local friends and workers.

[lazarus66]

minhthanh, Perhaps a person could tell the authorities about how these men lie to come to VN. I don't think anyone would have to know who reported, but it would certainly let the people here know that something is not right.

I have many friends from your country, and they are lovely young men and women, some not so young. I know your customs are different, and I believe that those things are not to be tampered with, as those things do not pertain to God's will. Only spiritual matters need to be discussed, and it sounds like these men, except for Jim, do not care and don't want to listen.

I wish for the best for the true ones there. Remember, you do not have to be part of the fellowship of these men, to belong to God. He will separate the tares from the wheat........Again, follow your heart and you will not be wrong........Dale

[minhthanh]

We had invited two young sister workers in my field (Anne M & Van) to come for a meal, in order to explain to them what was happening with us. It was hard for them to believe the complicated problem caused by the workers.

Anne was a very nice young sister worker from Canada. she had a very good relationship with F&W. She feared to involve into the overseer’s work. She emailed to me one time that “I’m just a young sister, a new one in VN, so I can’t help you with any advice, please talk to the brother (overseer) about your problem !...”

Anne asked me if I had contacted through telephone miss E.M, the old Canadian sister worker to know what had happened from workers’ side (Previously, we had listened on Mrs. Mai’s side). Because we didn’t have E.M’s phone number, so Anne M took out her phone to contact miss E.M so that we could talk to her


- My daughter had the conversation with miss E.M with the witness of us and workers(Ann M and her companion).

My daughter asked miss E.M “How can you said to Mrs Mai that my parents pressed her to buy the house? While Mrs Mai didn’t have any debt from my parents. Miss Mai came to my parents house for visiting and wanted to by the house by her own will…”


- With the surprising Miss E.M answer “ I didn’t know that she came to Saigon !...”

(In her thought maybe we could have gone to Phu Quoc Island to persuate Mrs. Mai into buying our own house).


- “Why did you give the advice to Mrs. Mai not buying our own house in Dalat?.

With the Vietnamese law, who interferes into other business, cause the problem, we can bring them to court .


- No, it was not me giving the advice, my young Vietnamese companion gave the advice to her, because she knew the Vietnamese law.


- May I have a talk with your Vietnamese companion?


- Sorry, she was go out… Thank you for calling… thank you for calling… thank you…


At last Anne M asked me “Now, who are you believing?”


My answer “the person who is worthy my trust ,didn’t make me trust her!.


The workers in my field went home without any solution or help !...

Mrs Mai asked me why these workers knew she had wanted to buy the house. I remembered the fact that Cường, the Vietnamese worker, Darrel’s companion also a right, helful arm of overseers !...

That afternoon and evening, Mrs. Mai and I received many telephone calls and messages from Miss E.M…even when we had gone to sleep!...in order to justify…we were very disappointed about these workers, they didn’t go out to seek the lost sheep (like uncle Hoa), but tended to interfere into private, material things of others…made us doubt about them whether they were true workers of God.

Many problems had happened before, but this one was the last straw that broke the camel’s back…and my husband had a stroke two days later.

[quizzer]

I'm sorry, minhthanh. What these foreign workers have brought to Vietnam is unreal. It's believable because it happens in a lot of countries. When the overseer gets something in his head, reality can't change it. Also, no matter how nice a worker seems to be, they will side with the overseer. If they don't, they get sent somewhere else or they get put out of the work.

It's bad stuff, and I'm sorry that you have had this experience. How's your husband?

[minhthanh]

Jan 2, 2014 17:26:37 GMT -5 quizzer said:

I'm sorry, minhthanh. What these foreign workers have brought to Vietnam is unreal. It's believable because it happens in a lot of countries. When the overseer gets something in his head, reality can't change it. Also, no matter how nice a worker seems to be, they will side with the overseer. If they don't, they get sent somewhere else or they get put out of the work.

It's bad stuff, and I'm sorry that you have had this experience. How's your husband?

Thanks for your concern Quizzer... Thanks for following the happennings in others countries so that we can see clearly... 2x2.

When my husband had a stroke, luckily that we brought him to the hospital in time, he was paralysed in half left of his  body. My son had stopped working for a period of time for looking after his dad.

Worried to the health of their father, the day after my daughter had given birth to a son, both of them had serious problem (Especially for the little child, nearly to die... He had been in the emergency room for weeks). I had been beside her to encourage  !...

One month later my son had problem in his health too, because he had work oveloaded, carried his father. (My husband was a big person, while my son is very thin). Within one month I had to come and go to 5 diferent hospitals !...

Since that day, my husband couldn't go to teach (He used to be a network administration teacher). Any time we had the visit of workers to solve the problem... I had to took him to the hospital or doctor again. 
We are happy now, for not contact with them any more. We are all happy and healthy now. 
Many thanks for God had led us
Psalm 23. 4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil; for thou art with me;

Tomorow I'll post uncle Dale letter for you see how many faces in it !...
Uncle Lyle warning me, not sending this letter to friends by email !... I was surprised !... Now I understand the reason why they were afraid to send by email... Luke 12:3 Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

[quizzer]

You're very wise to restrict worker visits when your family is hurting, minhthanh. When the workers visited my grandfather after his first heart attack, they said that he had a heart attack because there was a devil in our house. (This was about 60 years ago - and the workers started saying different things after the senior brother workers started having heart attacks and other health problems.)

Just a few years ago, when my dad had a heart condition, a brother worker said, "What do you expect? He's old!"

These aren't helpful comments - both times, my family thought the workers would be a comfort and the workers weren't. When the workers get into the mode you're seeing, it's best to keep them away.

Hang in there - is your family doing better?

[dmmichgood]

Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Dec 26, 2013 12:35:17 GMT -5 snow said:

Sorry Nathan but 2x2 women were out of style when I was young in the 60's. Here we are in a next century and they still don't look much different from when I was growing up. There are a few exceptions, but the norm is still the same as when I was growing up. I can pick out most professing women anywhere just like a can pick out a hutterite or Amish. Sister workers especially.

While you may be correct with sister workers, you are not quite correct with professing women. I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it. You are only recognizing the ones who still look like the ones you knew in the sixties, which is still a fair number of them, mostly older ones.

"I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it."

True, but only in the last few years!  I see the difference in my nieces children.

 However, why has that happened do you think?

 Isn't it due to the fact that after people learned when & where the **TRUTH** started, that they realized all those rules that they had had to live by were nothing more than trumped up rules made by a few  men in a different time period and different place?

When it finally dawned on them that it really was true that the **TRUTH** did NOT go all the way back to the original apostles, that they decided that those rules made by those men just over one hundred years ago instead of 2000 years ago,- that those rules did not apply to this time and place!

Bully for them! I am glad for them!


However, let's go to the core belief of the **TRUTH.**  That is the belief that the **TRUTH** is the only Truth and the only Way and that the only way to salvation is through the workers! 

Now when THAT idea changes, then I will be able to believe that there is an important change in the **TRUTH!**

I simply can't believe that that will ever happen!

I know other religions have had to change some of their beliefs and have survived.

I don't think that the **TRUTH** can do it!

Since it is already so much of a "family inclusive" religion, however, family ties might hold it together.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 14:54:09 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5 @clearday said:

While you may be correct with sister workers, you are not quite correct with professing women. I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it. You are only recognizing the ones who still look like the ones you knew in the sixties, which is still a fair number of them, mostly older ones.

"I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it."

True, but only in the last few years!  I see the difference in my nieces children.

 However, why has that happened do you think?

 Isn't it due to the fact that after people learned when & where the **TRUTH** started, that they realized all those rules that they had had to live by were nothing more than trumped up rules made by a few  men in a different time period and different place?

When it finally dawned on them that it really was true that the **TRUTH** did NOT go all the way back to the original apostles, that they decided that those rules made by those men just over one hundred years ago instead of 2000 years ago,- that those rules did not apply to this time and place!

Bully for them! I am glad for them!


However, let's go to the core belief of the **TRUTH.**  That is the belief that the **TRUTH** is the only Truth and the only Way and that the only way to salvation is through the workers! 

Now when THAT idea changes, then I will be able to believe that there is an important change in the **TRUTH!**

I simply can't believe that that will ever happen!

I know other religions have had to change some of their beliefs and have survived.

I don't think that the **TRUTH** can do it!

Since it is already so much of a "family inclusive" religion, however, family ties might hold it together.

I don't think the liberalism among young people has much to do with people getting enlightened about the history and bunkum rules. It is simply that people were generally becoming less inclined to have their lives micro managed by the workers or anyone else so the workers recognized that and backed off being policemen and enforcers. They were getting push-back. I think that would have happened regardless of whether the history became known or not as it is more related to a broad cultural shift than an internal event such as history knowledge, which may have been a factor as you suggest. Most young people don't know the history one way or the other today. They don't have some deep faith that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee" and they don't know much about 1897 either. It's just a non-issue for most young people. What you see with young people's lifestyle is more spontaneous than it has ever been and you're right, that's a good thing!

[snow]

Jan 3, 2014 15:27:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 3, 2014 14:54:09 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

"I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it."

True, but only in the last few years!  I see the difference in my nieces children.

 However, why has that happened do you think?

 Isn't it due to the fact that after people learned when & where the **TRUTH** started, that they realized all those rules that they had had to live by were nothing more than trumped up rules made by a few  men in a different time period and different place?

When it finally dawned on them that it really was true that the **TRUTH** did NOT go all the way back to the original apostles, that they decided that those rules made by those men just over one hundred years ago instead of 2000 years ago,- that those rules did not apply to this time and place!

Bully for them! I am glad for them!


However, let's go to the core belief of the **TRUTH.**  That is the belief that the **TRUTH** is the only Truth and the only Way and that the only way to salvation is through the workers! 

Now when THAT idea changes, then I will be able to believe that there is an important change in the **TRUTH!**

I simply can't believe that that will ever happen!

I know other religions have had to change some of their beliefs and have survived.

I don't think that the **TRUTH** can do it!

Since it is already so much of a "family inclusive" religion, however, family ties might hold it together.

I don't think the liberalism among young people has much to do with people getting enlightened about the history and bunkum rules. It is simply that people were generally becoming less inclined to have their lives micro managed by the workers or anyone else so the workers recognized that and backed off being policemen and enforcers. They were getting push-back. I think that would have happened regardless of whether the history became known or not as it is more related to a broad cultural shift than an internal event such as history knowledge, which may have been a factor as you suggest. Most young people don't know the history one way or the other today. They don't have some deep faith that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee" and they don't know much about 1897 either. It's just a non-issue for most young people. What you see with young people's lifestyle is more spontaneous than it has ever been and you're right, that's a good thing!

I guess the question is this. When they marry and have children and decide they want more responsibilities in the Truth, would they need to change their attire to fit in more to get these privileges?

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 15:31:17 GMT -5 snow said:

Jan 3, 2014 15:27:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I don't think the liberalism among young people has much to do with people getting enlightened about the history and bunkum rules. It is simply that people were generally becoming less inclined to have their lives micro managed by the workers or anyone else so the workers recognized that and backed off being policemen and enforcers. They were getting push-back. I think that would have happened regardless of whether the history became known or not as it is more related to a broad cultural shift than an internal event such as history knowledge, which may have been a factor as you suggest. Most young people don't know the history one way or the other today. They don't have some deep faith that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee" and they don't know much about 1897 either. It's just a non-issue for most young people. What you see with young people's lifestyle is more spontaneous than it has ever been and you're right, that's a good thing!

I guess the question is this. When they marry and have children and decide they want more responsibilities in the Truth, would they need to change their attire to fit in more to get these privileges?

A couple in things here. There is a change going on toward what is considered a "privilege". If you are referring to getting meeting in the home, that is becoming more frequently viewed as a burden, not a privilege. At one time, there was a lot of internal politics going on to get a meeting in your home. Today, the interest in that is greatly receding as people are more aware of the work and effort that goes into hosting a meeting so it is not unusual for the workers to find people balking or turning down more "privileges". Even baby boomers are trying to retire their meetings at relatively young ages compared to the earlier generation who kept it until they were no longer able.....often into their 80's.

For those who are asked/offered a meeting, it will tend to go to the most conservative people. That's just the nature of it as the most conservative are also the most likely to go along with whatever the workers want. If the workers do ask someone on the liberal side to host a meeting, it is highly unlikely that they will tell them they have to change something unless it is really far-out.

Of course there is a core out there who want to jump hoops for the workers, and those will get first consideration for a meeting. However, there are fewer and fewer younger people who are playing politics to get a meeting.....more are hoping they don't get asked!

[snow]

Jan 3, 2014 15:46:58 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 3, 2014 15:31:17 GMT -5 snow said:

I guess the question is this. When they marry and have children and decide they want more responsibilities in the Truth, would they need to change their attire to fit in more to get these privileges?

A couple in things here. There is a change going on toward what is considered a "privilege". If you are referring to getting meeting in the home, that is becoming more frequently viewed as a burden, not a privilege. At one time, there was a lot of internal politics going on to get a meeting in your home. Today, the interest in that is greatly receding as people are more aware of the work and effort that goes into hosting a meeting so it is not unusual for the workers to find people balking or turning down more "privileges". Even baby boomers are trying to retire their meetings at relatively young ages compared to the earlier generation who kept it until they were no longer able.....often into their 80's.

For those who are asked/offered a meeting, it will tend to go to the most conservative people. That's just the nature of it as the most conservative are also the most likely to go along with whatever the workers want. If the workers do ask someone on the liberal side to host a meeting, it is highly unlikely that they will tell them they have to change something unless it is really far-out.

Of course there is a core out there who want to jump hoops for the workers, and those will get first consideration for a meeting. However, there are fewer and fewer younger people who are playing politics to get a meeting.....more are hoping they don't get asked!

That is an interesting change. It was once considered to be such a prestigious honor to be an elder and host a meeting. If more people are not wanting the meetings that will change things too. The workers won't be able to be as picky.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 16:00:11 GMT -5 snow said:

Jan 3, 2014 15:46:58 GMT -5 @clearday said:

A couple in things here. There is a change going on toward what is considered a "privilege". If you are referring to getting meeting in the home, that is becoming more frequently viewed as a burden, not a privilege. At one time, there was a lot of internal politics going on to get a meeting in your home. Today, the interest in that is greatly receding as people are more aware of the work and effort that goes into hosting a meeting so it is not unusual for the workers to find people balking or turning down more "privileges". Even baby boomers are trying to retire their meetings at relatively young ages compared to the earlier generation who kept it until they were no longer able.....often into their 80's.

For those who are asked/offered a meeting, it will tend to go to the most conservative people. That's just the nature of it as the most conservative are also the most likely to go along with whatever the workers want. If the workers do ask someone on the liberal side to host a meeting, it is highly unlikely that they will tell them they have to change something unless it is really far-out.

Of course there is a core out there who want to jump hoops for the workers, and those will get first consideration for a meeting. However, there are fewer and fewer younger people who are playing politics to get a meeting.....more are hoping they don't get asked!

That is an interesting change. It was once considered to be such a prestigious honor to be an elder and host a meeting. If more people are not wanting the meetings that will change things too. The workers won't be able to be as picky.

It's generally not a big problem yet. The concurrent change is the decline in numbers. It is far more likely that a worker will preside over a meeting consolidation than a meeting expansion. Adding new meetings to a city has largely been stopped for 20 years in most places. When meetings are consolidated, then there is usually an ex-host in the consolidated meeting so if that elder has to retire or dies, there is already someone around that has previously hosted a meeting. As meetings shrink, the proportion of elders and ex-elders increases because ex-elders are less likely to leave the meetings than people who are young or older people who have never been elders.

[dmmichgood]

Jan 3, 2014 15:27:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 3, 2014 14:54:09 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

"I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it."

True, but only in the last few years!  I see the difference in my nieces children.

 However, why has that happened do you think?

 Isn't it due to the fact that after people learned when & where the **TRUTH** started, that they realized all those rules that they had had to live by were nothing more than trumped up rules made by a few  men in a different time period and different place?

When it finally dawned on them that it really was true that the **TRUTH** did NOT go all the way back to the original apostles, that they decided that those rules made by those men just over one hundred years ago instead of 2000 years ago,- that those rules did not apply to this time and place!

Bully for them! I am glad for them!


However, let's go to the core belief of the **TRUTH.**  That is the belief that the **TRUTH** is the only Truth and the only Way and that the only way to salvation is through the workers! 

Now when THAT idea changes, then I will be able to believe that there is an important change in the **TRUTH!**

I simply can't believe that that will ever happen!

I know other religions have had to change some of their beliefs and have survived.

I don't think that the **TRUTH** can do it!

Since it is already so much of a "family inclusive" religion, however, family ties might hold it together.

I don't think the liberalism among young people has much to do with people getting enlightened about the history and bunkum rules.

It is simply that people were generally becoming less inclined to have their lives micro managed by the workers or anyone else so the workers recognized that and backed off being policemen and enforcers.

They were getting push-back.

I think that would have happened regardless of whether the history became known or not as it is more related to a broad cultural shift than an internal event such as history knowledge, which may have been a factor as you suggest.

 Most young people don't know the history one way or the other today.

They don't have some deep faith that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee" and they don't know much about 1897 either.

It's just a non-issue for most young people. What you see with young people's lifestyle is more spontaneous than it has ever been and you're right, that's a good thing!

  A really big "broad cultural shift"  happened in the '60-'70's and there was no big change allowed amongst the young people in the **TRUTH* at that time.

Ask anyone that was a teenager then!

The young people these days aren't that far away from knowing  the history of the **TRUTH.** 

 My nieces children surely  know the struggle that their own parents and grand-parents went through when they first learned the Truth about the **TRUTH**

[snow]

Jan 3, 2014 16:18:46 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jan 3, 2014 16:00:11 GMT -5 snow said:

That is an interesting change. It was once considered to be such a prestigious honor to be an elder and host a meeting. If more people are not wanting the meetings that will change things too. The workers won't be able to be as picky.

It's generally not a big problem yet. The concurrent change is the decline in numbers. It is far more likely that a worker will preside over a meeting consolidation than a meeting expansion. Adding new meetings to a city has largely been stopped for 20 years in most places. When meetings are consolidated, then there is usually an ex-host in the consolidated meeting so if that elder has to retire or dies, there is already someone around that has previously hosted a meeting. As meetings shrink, the proportion of elders and ex-elders increases because ex-elders are less likely to leave the meetings than people who are young or older people who have never been elders.

I see. I guess that makes sense after hearing about the decline in members and the consolidation of conventions etc.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2014 17:21:12 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Jan 3, 2014 15:27:28 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I don't think the liberalism among young people has much to do with people getting enlightened about the history and bunkum rules.

It is simply that people were generally becoming less inclined to have their lives micro managed by the workers or anyone else so the workers recognized that and backed off being policemen and enforcers.

They were getting push-back.

I think that would have happened regardless of whether the history became known or not as it is more related to a broad cultural shift than an internal event such as history knowledge, which may have been a factor as you suggest.

 Most young people don't know the history one way or the other today.

They don't have some deep faith that it "goes back to the shores of Galilee" and they don't know much about 1897 either.

It's just a non-issue for most young people. What you see with young people's lifestyle is more spontaneous than it has ever been and you're right, that's a good thing!

  A really big "broad cultural shift"  happened in the '60-'70's and there was no big change allowed amongst the young people in the **TRUTH* at that time.

Ask anyone that was a teenager then!

The young people these days aren't that far away from knowing  the history of the **TRUTH.** 

 My nieces children surely  know the struggle that their own parents and grand-parents went through when they first learned the Truth about the **TRUTH**

Just ask me then. I was professing teen during the cultural shift of the 60's. I played sports competitively. I was High Student Council president. Didn't have Marine-style haircut. Played in band. Far more non-professing friends than professing friends and had lots of fun with them. Did all kinds of sports and travels with professing friends. Parents were Sunday and Wed elders. How many times was I accosted by workers over my lifestyle? Zero. No struggle. The closest thing to a worker confrontation was when someone told me that a worker asked her why my hair was so long! She said, "Dunno, ask him!". Now me and my professing friends are parents of those kids who are pretty relaxed, normal kids today. It's all connected.

A lot of those who fretted over worker control back then and became worker toadies, today have kids who had a rough time growing up.

You got one thing dead right. A lot of people of my generation struggled with learning about the history.