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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 5:24:25 GMT -5
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Vietnam
Dec 22, 2013 12:04:20 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2013 12:04:20 GMT -5
If the ONLY reason they kicked Chau out of the work because he was trying to help solving/selling his brother's house in Saigon... Then why Darrel T. came up the 80,000 dollars price for the house. He was involved in solving/selling the house too.
Chau and Hoa had a wonderful testimonies among the friends and workers in VN for more than 50 years, so they were look up with great respect, getting advice from them even AFTER the new admin. took it over in 2000. The VN friends and many workers still looked to Chau and Hoa as their leaders/overseers because they had done a great work for 50 yrs. It would have taken the VN friends awhile to adapt, to look up, and trust the new overseer with all the changes. The new overseer didn't like that! so he had to come up with a plan to take care of that problem, whatever he did, it backfired on him. You have to earn people respect with sincere spirit, and by showing it, like Chau and Hoa had done for 50 yrs. Go, slowly with the changes! if it done too fast then the results can be VERY bad.
Jesus said To be the TOP dog! you must become a servant to ALL like He was to his disciples... He served others, putting others first than his own will, unselfish love, he even laid down his own life for them.
The current adm. should/must write a sincere letter of apology of the unrest, divisions, which Darrel T. have caused to Chau, Hoa, Minh Thanh family, and 100 friends for standing up for truth, against falsehood, etc... first step of healing... and to welcome them back with open arms if they want to return to the fellowship. Nathan, I don't see the Canadian overseer in VN to be all that unusual in the way he deals with people...his "envy/jealousy" is what is killing the membership in VN....he went over there with an arrogance that HE WAS TOP DOG and he was going to prove that! This kind of spirit is rife amongst the more powered workers...now not all of the workers are like this, but those who are given a little power often get so bigheaded themselves that it would take a horrible disaster to get them back down to being and believing they are just like every other person who pulls their pants up from the foot to the hip instead of starting with the hip and going downward.... This reminds me of the story that Jesus told His Apostles/disciples...there was a man who was an invited wedding guest...he went into the wedding area and chose a seat on the groom and bride's table or the top table, the groomsman came in and saw him and saw he didn't even have the wedding garment on...he was asked to leave....not only was he to go to the lower tables but he was cast out of the wedding feast because he didn't have the wedding garment on. I heard someone says some time ago the reason the guest didn't have the wedding garment on is because the garment would not fit him, he was too big on himself! Good thought, eh? |
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Vietnam
Dec 22, 2013 12:06:26 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2013 12:06:26 GMT -5
Its not your eccentricity that bothers me but your ideological pogrom against Christians and your willingness to take liberties with the truth, and that isn't fit for a teacher.
Of all people to claim that anyone makes an "ideological pogrom against" someone's belief, I can't think of anyone who does a nastier a job than you do with your comments about atheists!
I guess I have had the wrong interpretation on atheism! I didn't think of it as being a "belief"...but more a lack of belief....I'm sorry I didn't get it right! |
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Vietnam
Dec 22, 2013 12:21:31 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2013 12:21:31 GMT -5
If the ONLY reason they kicked Chau out of the work because he was trying to help solving/selling his brother's house in Saigon... Then why Darrel T. came up the 80,000 dollars price for the house. He was involved in solving/selling the house too.
Chau and Hoa had a wonderful testimonies among the friends and workers in VN for more than 50 years, so they were look up with great respect, getting advice from them even AFTER the new admin. took after the yr. 2000. The VN friends and many workers still looked to Chau and Hoa as their leaders/overseers because they had done a great work for 50 yrs. It would have taken the VN friends awhile to adapt, to look up, and trust the new overseer with all the changes. The new overseer didn't like that! so he had to come up with a plan to take care of that problem, whatever he did, it backfired on him. You have to earn people respect with sincere spirit, and by showing it, like Chau and Hoa had done for 50 yrs. Go, slowly with the changes! if it done too fast then the results can be VERY bad.
Jesus said To be the TOP dog! you must become a servant to ALL like He was to his disciples... He served others, putting others first than his own will, unselfish love, he even laid down his own life for them.
They should write a sincere letter of apology to Chau, Hoa, Minh Thanh family, and 100 friends for standing up for truth.... first step of healing... and welcome them back with open arms if they want to return to the fellowship. I would be very interested in hearing Darrel's side of the story on this. To summarize Minh Thanh's story: It was alleged that Chau owned a house which is against worker tradition. The truth is that the house was owned by Chau's brother in the US who allowed Chau free use of the house for friends and workers passing through in Vietnam. Darrel is alleged to know that Chau didn't own the house but made that claim anyway and ordered the sale of the house, preferably to one of the local friends, which it eventually did sell. So far, all we know is that from the Western point of view, Chau wrongfully owned a house and he banished from the country for that reason only. Perhaps more allegations will surface. One possibility is that the Westerners were not pleased that the church was registered in VN, that Chau was the head of that church, and the house was the address for the church.....even though it is required by law to register the church. I have never heard of or seen any of the workers get all bunched up in themselves about a country being required to "register" with the government of that country....but them I haven't been around a lot of workers that have been to those type of countries. But I have been around workers who have had to register their occupancy in the foreign country esp. with the American or Canadian or British embassies in the foreign countries....this is just a way of knowing who is in the country and not of the natives in case of an emergency or disaster......It doesn't make sense to me to be so upset over the 2x2 sect being demanded to be registered with the foreign country nor does it make sense that the Westerner overseer would not like it that a native worker was the one whom the country recognized as being a "leader" of the sect. It only makes sense for a country to "prefer" a native of that religion be who the country will recognize in case of need.....I have not ever gotten the impression that the foreign countries mean to take the registration for sole purposes of dealing harshly with anyone of that religion NOR do they intend to try and change that religion....the excessive need of the workers to keep their religion secret sure seems to me would bring more adversity then just being open about it. And I cannot think that being so secret that it would bring in very many converts to the gospel of Jesus....any outsider convert has to learn first thing before they're allowed to profess that the workers are the ONLY way a person can get salvation or preach them salvation. This is pure arrogance on the part of the workers. This makes me think about what it says that pure and undefiled religion is...and that is to visit the orphans and widows, etc. But the workers can't always visit the widows and the orphans are usually under the government's care through human resources or DMS.....so it's next to impossible for them to have a "pure and undefiled religion"......thus what is worked secretly or in the dark turns out when it comes to light is something we all shudder about! |
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Vietnam
Dec 22, 2013 12:24:28 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 22, 2013 12:24:28 GMT -5
No they weren't professing...my mother was born the same year that my grandparents professed, she was the last child of a very large family. My dad knew nothing about the fellowship until one year my mother met her sister at the Denver conv. Dad was so impressed that he decided he might want to get involved....well, as it were 2 sister workers came to our home to converse with them and when dad knew it was sister workers as ministers he quickly tossed them out of his home and told them to never darken the door again. After that there was a lot of animosity toward my mother because she refused to go to church with dad's parents and thus they found out that she believed in women preachers....all of that was one of the things that eroded their marriage! Mom professed many years later about 3 and half years before she died! I believe that William Irvine had a very big ego because he'd been a coal mine supervisor and he then was a superintendent for the Faith Mission or something of that ilk and though it is said by the beginning workers that WI didn't want the top job but he sure took it...I feel he knew that he should act humble in order to be more sure of getting it. He relished his top position. I see. So you weren't B&R then? In any case, it's sad that you had to go through all that with your father. In a sense, yes I was born in the 2x2 because of my mother having been B&R's herself and she didn't believe any other religion was the right one...she just thought she was unwilling for all of the 2x2 rules....But I WAS taken to my professing gram at the age of 3, so I technically was "raised" in the 2x2 religion! |
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Vietnam
Dec 22, 2013 12:39:11 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 22, 2013 12:39:11 GMT -5
I see. So you weren't B&R then? In any case, it's sad that you had to go through all that with your father. In a sense, yes I was born in the 2x2 because of my mother having been B&R's herself and she didn't believe any other religion was the right one...she just thought she was unwilling for all of the 2x2 rules....But I WAS taken to my professing gram at the age of 3, so I technically was "raised" in the 2x2 religion! Oh, I see! Okay, yes you were B&R then. Thanks for the clarification.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2013 13:12:12 GMT -5
As has been done in countless other expulsion issues in 2x2ism, one of the clearly dishonest methods of explanation, is to retroactively manufacture lies, falsely insinuate and discredit the individuals involved -- giving the expelled individual no chance to defend themselves. This is cowardly and completely dishonest. It has become 2x2 policy to accept dishonest motivation to enable the politically inspired character assassination that will convince membership to at least silently 'look the other way', when they actively choose to beat victims unmercifully into the ditch. This 2x2 policy is a complete mockery of the Christian spirit in every way!!!! Another example of this completely anti-christian 2x2 policy is found in the story of Marg Magowan in www.anotherstep.net/summary/constructedfilth.htmThe following story here is a perfect example of this ugly organizational technique. www.anotherstep.net/Vietnam/ChausExpulsion.htmEdgar More information on the subject |
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Vietnam
Dec 23, 2013 5:16:22 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 23, 2013 5:16:22 GMT -5
This is the sad testament of the 2x2 structure. My sister was a Washington worker, and owned property, while in the work, and no one suggested she get rid of it. I am sure that a lot of the money (plus money she stole from the estate) went to the overseer. I know she was taking people on the ferry from Seattle to Alaska and paying their way as I saw one person thank her for that.
Of course this is in the USA and not Canada, and my sister was a total follower of the workers, but not so much Jesus or the bible.
She has admitted to alcoholism and I know she is still an addict, and yet she goes to meetings and is still cared for, to some degree, by the 2x2 big shots. She left the work for "health reasons", which were fictional, but this was long after the money disappeared, so one can only speculate.
What the entire fellowship needs to do is take lessons from the people in VN and perhaps they may get on the right track. Of course their egos will not allow bending to anything other than the power they have and abuse............Dale
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Vietnam
Dec 23, 2013 15:25:09 GMT -5
Post by Mary on Dec 23, 2013 15:25:09 GMT -5
... or proof that God is not in it.
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Post by fixit on Dec 23, 2013 15:31:30 GMT -5
Yes, if we had a BIG headed overseer, senior workers in charge of a field! Like we see in VN.... That country/field is going to have a lot of challenges, issues to deal with but hopefully those who hang in there, through the tests, fiery trials will come forth as gold at the end. God's way of allowing these experiences to tests our spirits, and faith in Him. The biggest challenge in Vietnam is the same as the biggest challenge everywhere: getting workers and especially overseers to realise that to be useful servants of God they need to be like Jesus - meek and lowly in heart. |
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Vietnam
Dec 23, 2013 22:05:31 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 23, 2013 22:05:31 GMT -5
Lee, even in the harshest times of Communism in Russia, everyone had a right to have their own opinion. If you liked your freedom, you usually did not express it out loud. In some important respects they did not have the right to their own opinion. What value is there of an opinion if you can't share or empower it? In meetings it is very much the same. You have the right to your opinion and think what you choose. If you want to remain having the privileges to "take part" in prayer, testimony, and partaking of the emblems, you better not express your opinion if it is out of line with the worker's thinking. If you think your overseer is a bag of wind and liar and is cheating people and doing all sorts of things, that are not right, "In your opinion" then you should keep it to your self. One sign of tyranny is people censuring themselves. Kind of odd, but I have heard Communism talked about in a negative way in meetings, and how we had been made free in Christ, but then that has it's limits too, doesn't it? Freedom isn't meaningful apart from a context. Paul called himself a slave of JC. ....Should the wicked be given the right to their own opinion including the right to express and empower it? ....As the allegorical account of Eden goes, was it not recognized then that the wicked had been given the right to express and empower their opinions? ....Should the wicked then have to die for their beliefs and with them, their beliefs? I'm not saying any TMB participant is wicked in this capacity. I'm looking for a principle. |
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Vietnam
Dec 24, 2013 0:41:01 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 24, 2013 0:41:01 GMT -5
Lee, you wrote "One sign of tyranny is people censuring themselves. "
Is this not what the friends that follow the workers, right or wrong, do?
Even some of the workers have adopted the mentality that their peers, especially the overseers are right, no matter how far off base they are.
I believe that we all have a right to an opinion. If I choose to express it, if I am hurting someone by my opinion, then maybe I ought not express it.
Having an opinion and imposing your will on someone is a totally different breed of cat.
When the F&Ws group have the unmitigated gall to indoctrine/mindcontrtol/brainwash people into believing that you will be condemned to Hell, if you don't follow "THEM" and not the scripture that they proclaim is what they follow, something is really wrong with that.
I will ask again. Should a 5 year old child go to sleep at night, in fear, being taught that the workers are right, end of story, and that same 5 year old is being physically abused, beaten, by the "loving parents" like the "Loving God" we hear preached, can you justify that in any way? Can you say,"Well, that kid was surly not likely to act up" when the penalty for "acting up" was eternal Hell?
I knew that my parents did not like me, for who can love or even like a child that can't sit still, is hungry all the time, does things like bed wetting, and fidgets, for no apparent reason? Surely when the flesh that you came from hates you, how can this strange being, called God, even like you? Surely He will give you more of the same you have now. You are being punished in the most horrific way, the with holding of love, so why not Hell too, for this unwanted, unlovable child? Did he not hear and read about those in the bible that were like him (or so his 5 year old mind thought). Surely he caused the death of his younger brother, merely by existing, and being a survivor. Why could the doctor not waited that extra three or four minutes, so that the umbilical cord around this wretched being's neck would have finished the job, snuffing out the life of this undesirable child, when surely that child that was taken instead, would have been the one that could be loved, cherished and even just simply wanted?
Of course God needs examples of what those that do not fall into the 2x2 definition of what is acceptable, and desired, should have a living example of the hell here that is only a prelude to the eternal Hell that waits such a creature "beyond the sunset".
Is this enough "principle" for you?
God was not with Israel's enemies, and so they perished. Are we to believe that there is some "Noble place, some Noble holding place, not quite hell, but certainly not heaven, because God was not with them. Did every Philistine have that complete hatred for David and his people. Was there not even one, that stood there with a different mindset?
Perhaps one smaller warrior, that had endured the lashes of his trainers, because he had not developed as quickly as others had. Maybe one young man that didn't "FILL OUT" as quickly as the other lads in his classes. Perhaps this young man, because of his late physical development, had a soft place in his heart for those, like himself that did not have the body hair others his age had, and so he was held up to ridicule? Maybe he was now the strongest in his class, but instead of sending out a fist to add to the torture, he extended a hand, in love and understanding, to reach out, lift up, and mentally strengthen that lad that had not fully developed?
In doing so, he would be going against his training of "the weak will surely perish", but then, he stood there as a testament to that one that developed slower, but to a much fuller extent.
Could this Philistine not see the slight build of David, the fair skin, the complete lack of fear in this young man, no, not even really a man but a foolish young boy. Yet as he watched from his post he saw and thought "this one we should fear", but dare he say one word. He might lose his respect and physical stature in his group of soldiers. Maybe he was even a leader of his group. Certainly a word of caution would be foolish, although deep in the greatest depths of his heart, he knew......... he just knew that Goliath would not leave that battlefield alive.
Principle. Should he whisper a word of caution to Goliath, just a quick note of caution but no, certainly that would betray him. He would keep his thoughts to him self as a matter of principle.
Jesus, as a matter of principle, uttered not a word. A carpenter. No soft hands there, no weak arms, hands, legs. Did a young guard for Pilate really dare to step outside. Would he be executed for leaving Pilate alone with this man of hard physical labor, when this man did great physical harm to Pilate? No, he thought, I was ordered out earlier and was told to leave, and as a matter of principle, I do not think Pilate to be safe, but I have my orders. Certainly there arae enough witnesses to show that I was following orders. If I stand on "PRINCIPLE", I am in the right.
Need I go on, Lee, or as a matter of principle, have I made my point?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 4:57:03 GMT -5
The biggest challenge in Vietnam is the same as the biggest challenge everywhere: getting workers and especially overseers to realize that to be useful servants of God they need to be like Jesus - meek and lowly in heart. Nathan The gospel message is that we ALL, should be like more like Jesus. The gospel message is that we should leave the (2x2)group worshiping mindset behind .. leave the self-centered 'we are right everyone else is wrong' mindset behind -- and recognize and admire the beautiful Christian spirit in whatever context, people or groupings we may find it - (however unlikely it may seem). The gospel promise is that we will find blessing, peace and joy only when we free ourselves from the organizational thinking typical for the Pharisees (and 2x2ism) , that would attempt, in such an ugly way, to place an organizational monopoly on the truth of God and on the amazing beauty of Christ. |
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Vietnam
Dec 24, 2013 6:28:14 GMT -5
Post by Lee on Dec 24, 2013 6:28:14 GMT -5
Sorry Dale, I didn't mean to provoke you. I agree the F&W are or can be as alienated from the wisdom above as anyone. I just wanted to mull over this idea of 'an entitlement to an opinion'. Unfortunately evil-minded people believe they are entitled to their opinion as well and instinctively empower themselves. I wonder what form God's justice will ultimately take. If he gave the right to an opinion in the first place, he has the right to take it.
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Vietnam
Dec 24, 2013 19:14:03 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 24, 2013 19:14:03 GMT -5
“Solving the selling of the house” a lie reason.
It’ was just the beginning of many bad happening later. God have opening another house for workers… an offer of a house from friend.
We used to live in Dalat, a small city 300Km far from Saigon, which is in the highlands with mountains, lakes, waterfalls, flowers… and the weather is cool throughout the years. People often come to Dalat for their honeymoon. Our honeymoon a little longer… 25 years  , children B&R there until we left to Saigon. We still keep the house for a couple friends to live, and welcome F&W come and stay. We didn’t have enough money to buy the house in Saigon, so we had to sell my house in Dalat. I had asked my relatives & friends to buy it, but no one wanted. At last I put an advertisement in the newspaper for selling… Hearing the trouble came to uncle Chau, a sister friend in Phu Quoc Island wanted to meet him. They have had an appointment at my house. (It was the time uncle Chau lived with a poor old friend who just lost his son, then his wife… He is the only one in his family professed, lonely and illness… Uncle Châu wanted to stay with him in order to be able to look after that man’s health and his spirit.) While waiting for uncle Chau, we were talking together (I, my husband and the sister friend), knowing that we were going to sell the house in Dalat. She said “Let it for me to buy”.
I did know she had enough money to buy my small house (It’s the house in the picture, my husband and sister Hong Hoa saw off uncle Hoa). But we never thought that she wanted to buy our house… What for? I asked her. She lived in an island very far from Dalat, how could she stay there? Her answer was “For the workers to stay any time they return and need to rest….”
Even though I felt very strange and happy when she wanted to buy my house, it completely what we expected. But I had explained for her that it was not nessesary for this time. Inspite of my explanation, she still wanted to buy… With the only reason “ For the workers to stay. That was the useful house for many years, I wanted to offer that house to God, for the work in VN… Friends could stay there sometimes if they need to restore their health too.”
You will see God knows all, He knows His servants’ needs to prepare for them… Remember this message “For the workers”… I will continue later…
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Vietnam
Dec 25, 2013 0:05:22 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 25, 2013 0:05:22 GMT -5
Four months later… On July 2010
With a great pleasure uncle Châu had announced to us about uncle Dale’s decision for him
“ … went back into the field, you could choose labor in VN or USA.”
The reply from uncle Châu “I’ll go where ever you arrange for me.”
The arrangement from uncle Dale was “Go to USA” Of course uncle Châu was very happy to have a place in the work, going to USA was a big privilege for him too, because a lot of Vietnamese friends living in USA, and almost his relatives also living there.
While we were happy with this news, there was another news from Darrel staff that “Uncle Chau had to go to USA to learn how to labor in the work !...”
Surprised with the explaining from the workers at my field, I had asked uncle Châu…
His answer was “I don’t need to learn anything from anyone, I only learn from Jesus how to do and labor…”
Uncle Dale hired a lawyer to handle the paperwork for uncle Chau. The first interview by the USA consulate failed. They continued to do the paperwork again… Uncle Châu was directed carefully in details from American lawyer. (Uncle Châu returned to my house to talk with the lawyer from the guest room, because the old friend didn’t have wireless at his house.) The second interview failed, too.
To me, It seemed God disagreed with their arrangement for uncle Chau going to USA. We were happy that he would stay and labor in VN as uncle Dale had said in the beginning “where do you want to labor ? VN or USA.”
Actually things happened not as they arranged and wanted. They didn’t allow uncle Châu back to the work in VN as uncle Dale inform uncle Chau.
This is the first time I saw two faces in a matter from uncle Dale…
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Vietnam
Dec 25, 2013 4:54:28 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 25, 2013 4:54:28 GMT -5
Uncle Chau has too much influence in VN and that is why Uncle Dale wanted him in the USA. Also He could keep an eye on Chau and make sure he was going to change from following Jesus to following the workers. He is too high up to not fit in with those that feel like they are running the show. They don't realize they are small pawns and need to learn from Uncle Chau not teach him........
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Vietnam
Dec 25, 2013 7:32:52 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 7:32:52 GMT -5
One overseer told me outright that he did not know if the Work of God could even continue in his land after he died. This attitude seems to exist in more than one place and in multiple people.
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Vietnam
Dec 25, 2013 12:27:41 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 12:27:41 GMT -5
From what we have seen so far Nathan, there was nothing that needed to be changed.
The goal of the foreigners is uniformity and by trying to impose uniformity, they destroyed the unity.
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Vietnam
Dec 26, 2013 0:54:51 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 26, 2013 0:54:51 GMT -5
From what we have seen so far Nathan, there was nothing that needed to be changed. The goal of the foreigners is uniformity and by trying to impose uniformity, they destroyed the unity. Those things were man-made rules that should never have been imposed on God's people. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Dec 26, 2013 4:32:53 GMT -5
In my 58 years of life in the 2x2s from age 5, I never heard much about inward things, that would make inward changes. All I heard was outward things would bring ab out inward changes. That is not even right and is no where in the bible. If the inward man were changed, that should bring about inward changes, but how do we know this is happening. How can the workers look at people and say "this one does this with their hair and that one does this with their clothes" and from this they judge "How a person is doing spiritually?" Not what I read.
Nathan, I now can see your inner conflict about what you feel the 2x2 church was,
as presented to you, and what it really is, now that you have had these experiences.
In my 58 years of life in the 2x2s from age 5, I never heard much about
inward things, that would make inward changes. All I heard was
outward things would bring ab out inward changes. That is not even
right and is no where in the bible. If the inward man were changed,
that should bring about inward changes, but how do we know this is
happening. How can the workers look at people and say "this one
does this with their hair and that one does this with their clothes" and
from this they judge "How a person is doing spiritually?" Not what I
read.
Nathan, I now can see your inner conflict about what you feel the 2x2
church was, as presented to you, and what it really is, now that you
have had these experiences.
The men like William Irvine, Jack Carrol and John Walker knew that
they had to have a way to control the people, and they found that fear
was the greatest tool for them. They present the 2x2s as "the only
way" and then they hold the keys to the door to get in or to be locked
out. They had to establish the rules that showed on the outside, like
the women and their hair, and the men's clothes as well as the
women, and They used that as their measuring stick.
I have been to the convention where Jack Carrol is buried, and the
workers are very adamant about people visiting his grave. Why?
How many men in the bible that were key figures have grave sites that
need to be visited. You can't even find mention of it. In the new
testament, the tombs and graves are not important as in the OT.
Even in the OT, the tombs were only a place where the bones of the
person were. They were not shrines, like the workers would have you
to believe that Jack Carrol's grave site is.
I know that people can see in the bible where there were problems
with people and things back then, but not problems like "overseer"
problems. Paul would write and give instruction on how best to follow,
but he did not use the fear of a person not looking right on the outside
as a marker of how a person was doing. If you read about the hair
issues for men and women, you will notice that Paul says "we have no
customs, neither the churches." Why was that. Perhaps it was a thing
of the times. Like in the 1960's here, long hair on men was preached
about at convention, gospel meetings, and all meetings, but it was not
important and needed not even be mentioned.
Once again, the one's that started the new 2x2 church were reaching
out from the grave with their controlling ideas.
I read about the "golden years' in VN, and I think that those were
special times where the ones there were as close as man can get to
following the bible, but still even then, there were so many rules from
the originators of the church, like the hair, and dress codes.
I read now about how they in VN are not supposed to "lend money"
and how they ride old motorcycles while the workers ride the nice
newer bikes.
In the Acts, Stephen was appointed to take care of the widows and the
poor. Did that not mean to use money to make their lives easier as the
wage earner was either too old to earn a living or were dead.
I also read about the servant. Was the servant to come in from the
fields of labor and have the master wait on him to feed him?
The Golden Years are gone, due to the Canadian overseers need for
power and importance. Along with the Golden Years, they have taken
what ever spirit was existing also.
Nathan, now you see why so many of us have left. We are not sheep
that will follow the one leading us into a ditch. We have had our eyes
opened to see that the overseers, workers and the rules are the most
important. As I mention, I spent nearly 53 years, and can honestly say
that I heard about all the rules and how following the rules and
patterning yourself after the workers would bring peace.
That is not what people that want to follow the bible and truth, seek.
When we find that our "golden years" were all just rules and learning
how to look, and nothing inside, it was so empty. No substance and
there will not be substance as long as the overseers and workers put
the importance on themselves.
You can quote many scriptures, I am sure, that may justify some of
this, but if you look at it simply as a whole, you will find what those of
us that left found. Nothing of substance.
I hope that the people in VN can regain the "Golden Years" and make
the workers in Canada and everywhere else see that the substance is
inside and can not, nor should it be measured by men, workers,
overseers or any other man.
I hope for the best for those in VN............
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Dec 26, 2013 6:18:29 GMT -5
Post by holdmyhand on Dec 26, 2013 6:18:29 GMT -5
From what we have seen so far Nathan, there was nothing that needed to be changed. The goal of the foreigners is uniformity and by trying to impose uniformity, they destroyed the unity. Changing the way the VN friends worship and help each other is causing a lot of pain and division, it is NOT a good change, there is/was NO valid reason to change, their method of fellowship was working for them, it was scripturally sound and appears to have functioned better than it does in the West. The Canadians with the support of Western alliance overseers are behaving like egoistic bullies, who show no love or care. Throughout the 2x2’s short history workers have enforced then changed their man made traditions often, causing unnecessary pain and distress, Mat 15:1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus. They came from Jerusalem and asked him,
Mat 15:2 "Why do your followers not obey the traditions we have from our great leaders who lived long ago? Your followers don't wash their hands before they eat!"
Mat 15:3 Jesus answered, "And why do you refuse to obey God's command so that you can follow those traditions you have?
Mat 15:8 'These people honor me with their words, but I am not really important to them.
Mat 15:9 Their worship of me is worthless. The things they teach are only human rules.'
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Vietnam
Dec 26, 2013 10:47:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 10:47:29 GMT -5
To me it is quite clear that although the 2x2 high command may have effectively achieved their objectives of doctrinal uniformity in the Vietnamn division of their organization, they have completely betrayed the Christian spirit in doing so -- and this is an obvious betrayal that has become quite typical for 'the work' of recent years.
There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this ugly policy is any way, being revised. In contrary, this has become regarded as acceptable procedure by the entire membership these last years. --- Which to me, makes the entire membership supporting this 'institutional work' responsible för the active discarding of basic Christian principle of love and respect.
Is there a more ungodly, hypocritical and self-centered organization claiming Christianity than 2x2ism?
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Vietnam
Dec 26, 2013 11:42:37 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 26, 2013 11:42:37 GMT -5
To me it is quite clear that although the 2x2 high command may have effectively achieved their objectives of doctrinal uniformity in the Vietnamn division of their organization, they have completely betrayed the Christian spirit in doing so -- and this is an obvious betrayal that has become quite typical for 'the work' of recent years. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this ugly policy is any way, being revised. In contrary, this has become regarded as acceptable procedure by the entire membership these last years. --- Which to me, makes the entire membership supporting this 'institutional work' responsible för the active discarding of basic Christian principle of love and respect. Is there a more ungodly, hypocritical and self-centered organization claiming Christianity than 2x2ism? I find all religions to be ungodly, hypocritical and self centered. It's all about the religion and not the people and their connection to spirituality. Every religion is out to protect itself, it's doctrines and it's rules. Not one that I know of is not about justifying all of these doctrines and rules saying they are godly and must be upheld at all costs or it will cost the member eternal life. In my estimation, religions have nothing to do with god. They are only about survival and getting a following and making a living off the proceeds of their members. No one on earth needs a religion in order to connect with the divine. But religions wouldn't want you to know that because then there would be no need for them and they can't have that happen. Some are more or less that way, but they all share it. It's just the degree as far as I can see. |
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Vietnam
Dec 26, 2013 12:33:30 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:33:30 GMT -5
The 2x2 women wearing blacking, hats were the norm of the day in that period and time but the time came it was outdated, the sister workers in USA decided it was outdated and NOT to wear it. We don't want to be outdated like the Amish or changed with fashion too early either! or we will be branded too worldly... stay in the middle with the changes. Don't be too late or too early with changes. It is better to simply live a modest, moderate life than to worry about how people are branding you. |
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Dec 26, 2013 12:35:17 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 26, 2013 12:35:17 GMT -5
Back in the early days, the 2x2 women wearing blacking, hats were the norm of the day in that period and time but the time came it was outdated, the sister workers in USA decided it was outdated and NOT to wear it. We don't want to be outdated like the Amish or changed with fashion too early either! or we will be branded too worldly... stay in the middle with the changes. Don't be too late or too early with changes.
When computers came out, some of the Workers spoke against using computers, laptops, were too worldly, now most of the workers are using it to communicate with others. Don't be too early or too late with the changes... STAY in the middle of the road then you're fine.
Sorry Nathan but 2x2 women were out of style when I was young in the 60's. Here we are in a next century and they still don't look much different from when I was growing up. There are a few exceptions, but the norm is still the same as when I was growing up. I can pick out most professing women anywhere just like a can pick out a hutterite or Amish. Sister workers especially. |
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Vietnam
Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 12:43:53 GMT -5
Back in the early days, the 2x2 women wearing blacking, hats were the norm of the day in that period and time but the time came it was outdated, the sister workers in USA decided it was outdated and NOT to wear it. We don't want to be outdated like the Amish or changed with fashion too early either! or we will be branded too worldly... stay in the middle with the changes. Don't be too late or too early with changes.
When computers came out, some of the Workers spoke against using computers, laptops, were too worldly, now most of the workers are using it to communicate with others. Don't be too early or too late with the changes... STAY in the middle of the road then you're fine.
Sorry Nathan but 2x2 women were out of style when I was young in the 60's. Here we are in a next century and they still don't look much different from when I was growing up. There are a few exceptions, but the norm is still the same as when I was growing up. I can pick out most professing women anywhere just like a can pick out a hutterite or Amish. Sister workers especially. While you may be correct with sister workers, you are not quite correct with professing women. I can practically guarantee you have walked by professing women and never knew it. You are only recognizing the ones who still look like the ones you knew in the sixties, which is still a fair number of them, mostly older ones. |
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Dec 26, 2013 12:52:21 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 26, 2013 12:52:21 GMT -5
To me it is quite clear that although the 2x2 high command may have effectively achieved their objectives of doctrinal uniformity in the Vietnamn division of their organization, they have completely betrayed the Christian spirit in doing so -- and this is an obvious betrayal that has become quite typical for 'the work' of recent years. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this ugly policy is any way, being revised. In contrary, this has become regarded as acceptable procedure by the entire membership these last years. --- Which to me, makes the entire membership supporting this 'institutional work' responsible för the active discarding of basic Christian principle of love and respect. Is there a more ungodly, hypocritical and self-centered organization claiming Christianity than 2x2ism? Edgar, I agree so much with what you wrote here!! The last question/paragraph......there are some that might equal the 2x2's! 'same book, different cover. |
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, children B&R there until we left to Saigon. We still keep the house for a couple friends to live, and welcome F&W come and stay.