|
|
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 17, 2013 1:46:55 GMT -5
I believe that there is no such thing as "one fellowship".
I believe that there are those that are trying to do the right thing, and then there are those that know they are doing the wrong thing.
I know many people that live good lives and somehow either escape the power mad workers, or ignore them.
If you invite their presence into your life, when you know they are not doing right, you are the cause of your own folly.
I came back to the fellowship meetings in 2001 to serve God. That was not going to be allowed. I was going to have one thing after another set on my doorstep, until I broke.
This has happened before, so I saw the "light", and just left. Oddly enough the overseer that helped me understand how all this nonsense worked is not here in Iowa anymore, along with about half of the people from meetings. Perhaps instead of moving him, removing him (and those like him) is the answer. I will not return to meetings until they have made things right with me.
What takes place between me and God has nothing at all to do with the workers.
Lee, if you don't like the word cult used for the 2x2 way, stand up and tell them. We all know what we know.........Dale
|
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 3:03:55 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 3:03:55 GMT -5
I believe that there is no such thing as "one fellowship". I believe that there are those that are trying to do the right thing, and then there are those that know they are doing the wrong thing. I know many people that live good lives and somehow either escape the power mad workers, or ignore them. If you invite their presence into your life, when you know they are not doing right, you are the cause of your own folly. I came back to the fellowship meetings in 2001 to serve God. That was not going to be allowed. I was going to have one thing after another set on my doorstep, until I broke. This has happened before, so I saw the "light", and just left. Oddly enough the overseer that helped me understand how all this nonsense worked is not here in Iowa anymore, along with about half of the people from meetings. Perhaps instead of moving him, removing him (and those like him) is the answer. I will not return to meetings until they have made things right with me. What takes place between me and God has nothing at all to do with the workers. Lee, if you don't like the word cult used for the 2x2 way, stand up and tell them. We all know what we know.........Dale Dale, can you tell us what the Iowa overseer did to cause half of the friends to leave the fellowship? |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 3:56:06 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 17, 2013 3:56:06 GMT -5
While two sister workers in the South prevented not allow friends come into the house. There was an email sending to uncle Chau inbox, made him very headache.
Saying: Please don’t sell the house to Hoan & Thanh. Because it should wait until three years.(Because of this email, I didn’t continue to buy that house).
There was a couple want to buy the house, for their younger sister living (the wife is my relative too). From that time we didn’t mind anything happening to the house.
It was near the special meeting time, my older sister said to me “Oh, they had prepared very nice places for workers staying”. I felt happy beause of it. VN friends always do their best to welcome workers… especially this family, they served and welcomed all F&W with all their heart. Workers had gathered at their house very often.
When uncle Hoa returned from Cambodia, he was terribly sad to inform to uncle Châu (in China) That the friend who wanted to buy the house, had move out everything in the house, lost many papers and precious belongings… It was very sad to our local workers. We didn’t know the reason why…
They had asked uncle Châu permission to come in, even they hadn’t paid any money yet. Uncle Châu agreed with them, but warning that “Don’t touch any things belonging to uncle Hoa”…
That was the first reason making uncle Chau not want to sell the house for them any more.
For they disagreed with the price Darrel had offered to me… They asked one person to explain the lower price to Châu. But he didn’t mind… He said: I didn’t want to worry about the selling of the house, I’m busy with my labor in the North, my two nieces nearby could hear and give the decision. (But, they didn’t want to talk with uncle Châu nieces, it caused both sides disagree to findout a price.)
The sister living in the house was a young unmarried lady, it hard for both of Chau & Hoa staying there, whenever they returned or asked by the government. While their registered family book and the address of The VN church is in that home. That one more reason uncle Chau refuse selling the house to them.
After the special meeting, we invited uncle Châu staying with us a few days. Exactly the time he was 42 years in the field, we were going to have a meal only in the family with him. Thanks for God had kept him faithfull in the work of God. It was also the day the landlady of the renting house infomed us that she would like to take the house back, and would compensate to us as in the contract. I felt terribly sad and worried…
Because uncle Châu was there, and witnessed everything happening to us… I had to accept with the compensate money, but felt tired for the moving…!. Seeing and understanding our situation.
Uncle Chau asked us… “How are you going to do…?”
I replied: “I only want to go back to Dalat, a peaceful place for me…”
Uncle Chau said: “ What’s a crazy thought… you would live in Dalat while your husband and children are staying in Saigon with their works and studying… impossible !... You should buy my brother’s house.”
My answer: “No, no… they are my relative, I don’t want to dispute with them.”
Uncle Châu: “I will phone and explain to them…”
Every thing would have been OK if the workers had not interfered into the business. (Especially the sister workers !...) The workers caused many problems, and made up many bad stories between uncle Châu and me… (They wanted to smear uncle Châu, and destroyed my family happiness!... )
Even I asked a meeting between us, uncle Châu… and my relative. I had asked to Nhung, Darrel, and even with overseers who came to solve the problem… as in the Bible had taught… but never had a gathering as we asked !...(They didn’t want to obey the teaching in the Bible because it would disclose their real face)
Mathew 18: 15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
My relative told me that at the bottom of her heart, she wasn’t sad with us. Otherwise Darrel and sister workers said there was problem. While we asked them to have the gathering to solve the problem, they disagreed to arrange a gathering.
Here you see the problem was caused by the workers, perhaps the buyer was not the right objective they wanted
.
Even Darrel with his staff came, and questioned us many times in order to discourage us not buying the house, but with the agreement of our two local workers we continued buying the house… In spite of Darrel agreed or not… It wasn’t his house !...
We and uncle Châu (represented for his brother) signed in the paper the agreement of selling&buying before the government office on 3rd December 2009 with the price 80.000 USD as Darrel had raised.
It was the time uncle Châu back to Saigon for Singapore Convention 2009.
A long story for today…
We will go to Dalat for 3 days, and continue telling the truth… after returning.
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2013 4:06:50 GMT -5
Lee, I thought your comment to Bob, re: Teaching, was uncalled for and a low blow. What do we do without teachers. I am educated and glad for those that took the time to become educated, in order to educate me. Not to worry -- I didn't take it personally. I already knew Lee had problems with that profession. What he doesn't know is what I have "done". I have had some of the most interesting and indeed varied working experiences in my lifetime. The one that serves me best right now is my time spent cooking in restaurants while putting myself through college. My wife's sister tells her that I have her spoiled right rotten.  I even wash the dishes.  |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 4:28:03 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 17, 2013 4:28:03 GMT -5
Fixit, I hate to sidetrack this thread, but will tell you what I personally know.
The workers here were preaching that they weren't important, but the message was.
They told us in meetings that we were to read the scripture to make sure they were on track and following what was written.
First of all he (Jeff Thayer) made them stop preaching that.
Second, I noticed a fear among the people to speak up when asked to.
Thirdly, he was spending way too much time at a woman's house (several times divorced and not married)and in pictures on Facebook that were inappropriate.
Lastly with me, an elder (wealthy) cheated me in the worst way. I had a business and this "elder" had me quit my job in North Carolina and come back to Iowa to get my business going. When I got back he had totally lied and misled me. I went to Jeff with that to confront the man (Matt:18) and Jeff turned it all around on me.
I was a little behind in my taxes so he insisted after much protestation on my part, to "help me". He set it up for the money to come out of my bank account from the IRS. They were to make three payments on certain dates. I had no money, and my health had failed me so I couldn't work. I couldn't even walk very much.
A week later, Jeff emailed me telling me he changed his mind and left me hanging with the IRS. He was also telling me how I blame all my problems on others. I posted the email on here, but it was deleted, and I have been censored before on here. This may not make it, so I will PM it also.
Jeff came in with the same attitude you are reading about in the VN situation. He was the "second coming", and don't you forget it. "To miss one of his gospel meetings was like passing up a steak dinner". One person that left, taped that, and Jeff knew he was being taped. He was that arrogant.
I also know that many found the truth out about the "truth", the beginnings, the power struggle and the demands from overseers. This was all going on during the Jerome Frandle "episode" in Michigan, another good example of why to leave.
|
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 4:33:50 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2013 4:33:50 GMT -5
While two sister workers in the South prevented not allow friends come into the house. There was an email sending to uncle Chau inbox, made him very headache.
........................
Minh -- unfortunately your situation is becoming more typical the more you tell us. It is not scriptural for the workers to involve themselves in the distribution of family property. But they have done that on numerous occasions -- with great financial loss to families even. And the ONLY reason they do it is because they have a vested interest in controlling the property. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 4:42:14 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 17, 2013 4:42:14 GMT -5
Bob, I just thought it was rude. I also teach. I have also done some awesome things in my life, and my experience made me a better teacher. I teach guitar now, but an unable to play due to a reconstruction on my wrist which I hope heals and allows me to play again.
I know the old saying " those that can, do. Those that can't teach" What do those that can't teach do? Hmmmmmm
|
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 10:56:05 GMT -5
Post by déjà vu on Dec 17, 2013 10:56:05 GMT -5
those of us who are not teachers, are jealous of you teachers mainly because of your long vacations. In Europe teachers are also called "Holyday Technicians"  |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 11:11:42 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2013 11:11:42 GMT -5
No. Quite the opposite. St Paul was speaking of a sinful man who might lie. Not himself. Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
For if the truth of God,.... The "truth of God" is the same with "the righteousness of God", Romans 3:5, and means his faithfulness; of which it is hypothetically said, it
hath more abounded; or has been more illustrated,
through my lie to his glory: nothing is more opposite to truth than a lie; a lie of itself can never be of any advantage to truth, or to the God of truth; nothing is more contrary to the nature of God, and more abominable to him; a lie is of the devil, and punishable with eternal death; wherefore it may seem strange, that the truth of God should abound through it to his glory: now let it be observed, that the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar",
biblehub.com/romans/3-7.htm May we not say, (as some falsely pretend St. Paul said) let us do evil things, that good things may come of them? The apostle answers in short both this objection, and the calumny against him. As to the first; that though men's sins give an occasion to God to shew his justice, and make known his divine perfections, yet this will not excuse them from being justly condemned, and punished, when God shall judge the wicked world; ...
haydock1859.tripod.com/id147.html But those who profit from the lie (the converts) are not punished? Because they glorify god and believe. So it is amazing that the lying preacher can still bring glory to God and salvation to converts. Sounds like a martyr's wish. Well, it would serve some definition if we were to look at Pharoah and what God said about Pharoah, that God had made Pharoah as he was so that God's name would be glorified! And this was all around the horrible disasters that was put upon the Egyptian people......Didn't God say that even the overcoming of the Egyptian army in the sea or river that the children of Israel had passed over on dry land, but as the Egyptian army drew near, God released that wall of water as the Eygptian army started over the river or sea like the COI had done before them! Is this a revenging God? I'm not certain how many see all of that other then it being drastic and murderous but at the same time if we look at the whole story, we can see God is working all things to the glory of HIs name! |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 17, 2013 11:22:28 GMT -5
wow. interesting link. You should be able to visit whoever you want..didn't realize it was so territorial and discriminatory... Under Darrel rule... We could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible worker of that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any other workers. Everything have to ask permission of the worker in the field first. Through them send the invitation to others (Of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom... No... the law in my country give us freely to go... and free to invite anyone we want... WOW! "This is a horrid thing to have to go through after having obtained such liberality under your authorities of government! I wouldn't want to be taken back a hundred years regardless of who is trying to do that. What I'm thinking of is that the workers have dictated for years what women are to wear and fix their hair, but if asked if that is so they always say "We have no such rules." But you let a woman in the fellowship show up to a mtg. or conv. looking more like her peers out in the world and this lady will get a talking to by some sister who is wanting to push her importance and having had to succumb to such unwritten rules herself..... The advice having been given to new converts that they should look to the sister workers and take their example in dress and hair! So we still have women looking like they are from the Victorian period, althought the world's ladies have come full circle to wearing such baggy clothing and long stringy hair! That's the law of apparel....and that's just keep what you've got that is out of date and it will be rotated again in a few years! Case in point....when I was ayoung girl I was dressed in little butcher boy clothing....which was a loose blouse that came half way down my legs with the pants underneath that went at least past my knees if not all the way to my ankles.....well today we're seeing females of all ages wearing tight pants or capris with tunics that are loose and baggy that come well below their rearends |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 12:33:09 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Dec 17, 2013 12:33:09 GMT -5
your Quote Q. "Basically, the workers decide which meeting you attend, you don't get that choice." that is true q. but last time we were moved . they did say to let them know if it didn't work out for us. Yep, the workers did want the young couple to thoroughly understand that they were to ask the workers about where to go on Sunday morning - no more shopping around! I'm betting - because of the nice phrasing at the end - that you did ask the workers before attending any Sunday morning meeting in your new area? |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 12:36:40 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Dec 17, 2013 12:36:40 GMT -5
While two sister workers in the South prevented not allow friends come into the house. There was an email sending to uncle Chau inbox, made him very headache.
Saying: Please don’t sell the house to Hoan & Thanh. Because it should wait until three years.(Because of this email, I didn’t continue to buy that house).
There was a couple want to buy the house, for their younger sister living (the wife is my relative too). From that time we didn’t mind anything happening to the house.
It was near the special meeting time, my older sister said to me “Oh, they had prepared very nice places for workers staying”. I felt happy beause of it. VN friends always do their best to welcome workers… especially this family, they served and welcomed all F&W with all their heart. Workers had gathered at their house very often.
When uncle Hoa returned from Cambodia, he was terribly sad to inform to uncle Châu (in China) That the friend who wanted to buy the house, had move out everything in the house, lost many papers and precious belongings… It was very sad to our local workers. We didn’t know the reason why…
They had asked uncle Châu permission to come in, even they hadn’t paid any money yet. Uncle Châu agreed with them, but warning that “Don’t touch any things belonging to uncle Hoa”…
That was the first reason making uncle Chau not want to sell the house for them any more.
For they disagreed with the price Darrel had offered to me… They asked one person to explain the lower price to Châu. But he didn’t mind… He said: I didn’t want to worry about the selling of the house, I’m busy with my labor in the North, my two nieces nearby could hear and give the decision. (But, they didn’t want to talk with uncle Châu nieces, it caused both sides disagree to findout a price.)
The sister living in the house was a young unmarried lady, it hard for both of Chau & Hoa staying there, whenever they returned or asked by the government. While their registered family book and the address of The VN church is in that home. That one more reason uncle Chau refuse selling the house to them.
After the special meeting, we invited uncle Châu staying with us a few days. Exactly the time he was 42 years in the field, we were going to have a meal only in the family with him. Thanks for God had kept him faithfull in the work of God. It was also the day the landlady of the renting house infomed us that she would like to take the house back, and would compensate to us as in the contract. I felt terribly sad and worried…
Because uncle Châu was there, and witnessed everything happening to us… I had to accept with the compensate money, but felt tired for the moving…!. Seeing and understanding our situation.
Uncle Chau asked us… “How are you going to do…?”
I replied: “I only want to go back to Dalat, a peaceful place for me…”
Uncle Chau said: “ What’s a crazy thought… you would live in Dalat while your husband and children are staying in Saigon with their works and studying… impossible !... You should buy my brother’s house.”
My answer: “No, no… they are my relative, I don’t want to dispute with them.”
Uncle Châu: “I will phone and explain to them…”
Every thing would have been OK if the workers had not interfered into the business. (Especially the sister workers !...) The workers caused many problems, and made up many bad stories between uncle Châu and me… (They wanted to smear uncle Châu, and destroyed my family happiness!... )
Even I asked a meeting between us, uncle Châu… and my relative. I had asked to Nhung, Darrel, and even with overseers who came to solve the problem… as in the Bible had taught… but never had a gathering as we asked !...(They didn’t want to obey the teaching in the Bible because it would disclose their real face)
Mathew 18: 15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.”
My relative told me that at the bottom of her heart, she wasn’t sad with us. Otherwise Darrel and sister workers said there was problem. While we asked them to have the gathering to solve the problem, they disagreed to arrange a gathering.
Here you see the problem was caused by the workers, perhaps the buyer was not the right objective they wanted
.Even Darrel with his staff came, and questioned us many times in order to discourage us not buying the house, but with the agreement of our two local workers we continued buying the house… In spite of Darrel agreed or not… It wasn’t his house !...
We and uncle Châu (represented for his brother) signed in the paper the agreement of selling&buying before the government office on 3rd December 2009 with the price 80.000 USD as Darrel had raised.
It was the time uncle Châu back to Saigon for Singapore Convention 2009.
A long story for today…
We will go to Dalat for 3 days, and continue telling the truth… after returning.
This reminds me of 2 rules that my dad has for talking with workers about decisions: Rule #1: Don't talk to the workers. Rule #2: If you talk to the workers, don't expect them to have good advice or make anything better. This really applies those foreign workers in Vietnam. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 13:13:02 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 17, 2013 13:13:02 GMT -5
those of us who are not teachers, are jealous of you teachers mainly because of your long vacations. In Europe teachers are also called "Holyday Technicians" I teach year round. I would love a vacation. My last one was in 1979 and I wasted it on a convention. I also am a professional musician. I go out to play music, and it doesn't matter how I feel. I was in the Emergency room at the hospital and they wanted to keep me to run some tests. I told them that was out of the question. I had been playing for nearly 50 professionally and had never missed a gig. I wasn't going to start then. (about three years ago)........ |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 14:40:43 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 14:40:43 GMT -5
This reminds me of 2 rules that my dad has for talking with workers about decisions: Rule #1: Don't talk to the workers. Rule #2: If you talk to the workers, don't expect them to have good advice or make anything better. This really applies those foreign workers in Vietnam. I suspect the controlling workers in Vietnam behaved as they did because the friends were not consulting them. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Dec 17, 2013 15:09:28 GMT -5
Just a question that popped up for me. Why have workers at all if they are such a pain?
|
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 16:02:13 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 16:02:13 GMT -5
Just a question that popped up for me. Why have workers at all if they are such a pain? The 2x2 church came into being through the efforts of workers in the past who were evangelists. Workers today put most of their efforts into maintaining the convention/special meetings systems and the hierarchy system that is necessary for maintaining a tangible world-wide church. Someone has to draw the boundaries and hire and fire members. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 16:08:01 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2013 16:08:01 GMT -5
But those who profit from the lie (the converts) are not punished? Because they glorify god and believe. So it is amazing that the lying preacher can still bring glory to God and salvation to converts. Sounds like a martyr's wish. Well, it would serve some definition if we were to look at Pharoah and what God said about Pharoah, that God had made Pharoah as he was so that God's name would be glorified! And this was all around the horrible disasters that was put upon the Egyptian people......Didn't God say that even the overcoming of the Egyptian army in the sea or river that the children of Israel had passed over on dry land, but as the Egyptian army drew near, God released that wall of water as the Eygptian army started over the river or sea like the COI had done before them! Is this a revenging God? I'm not certain how many see all of that other then it being drastic and murderous but at the same time if we look at the whole story, we can see God is working all things to the glory of HIs name! When you believe in a single almighty being you will find that there is absolutely no end to the need for apologetics of any imaginable number of stripes. The more you learn about it, monotheism has to be the master of confusion. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 18:38:02 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 17, 2013 18:38:02 GMT -5
Just a question that popped up for me. Why have workers at all if they are such a pain? The 2x2 church came into being through the efforts of workers in the past who were evangelists. Workers today put most of their efforts into maintaining the convention/special meetings systems and the hierarchy system that is necessary for maintaining a tangible world-wide church. Someone has to draw the boundaries and hire and fire members. Is this said tongue in cheek? Or are you serious? |
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Dec 17, 2013 18:53:37 GMT -5
It was meant to be serious.
People want human leadership, just as the children of Israel did in OT times, to give them a tangible "kingdom".
They've got it in the worker hierarchy.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 20:08:55 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2013 20:08:55 GMT -5
This reminds me of 2 rules that my dad has for talking with workers about decisions: Rule #1: Don't talk to the workers. Rule #2: If you talk to the workers, don't expect them to have good advice or make anything better. This really applies those foreign workers in Vietnam. I suspect the controlling workers in Vietnam behaved as they did because the friends were not consulting them. If one of the respected friends like Mr Bau were giving the other friends advice and direction, that would certainly be high on the list the workers to change. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 20:37:43 GMT -5
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 17, 2013 20:37:43 GMT -5
There's an ole expression -- "A new broom sweeps clean."
I suspect the new overseer(s) went there with the full intention of making the statement that "It is going to me my way from now on." And in keeping with the model, you look for things to change, even if for no other purpose than to make that clear from the very beginning. This is not the first time that has taken place.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lee on Dec 17, 2013 22:41:12 GMT -5
Lee, I thought your comment to Bob, re: Teaching, was uncalled for and a low blow. What do we do without teachers. I am educated and glad for those that took the time to become educated, in order to educate me. Bob irritated me in responding to my post, "That's exactly why I refuse to buy the newspaper before noon. It reminds people that my mother doesn't have cancer yet." He was implying that my post was vacuous. As for my opinion about teachers goes, apart from the tendency for affluence and academia to insulate them or anyone else from reality, teaching is a noble profession. Here's my real grievance: Bob states he "accepts no responsibility for others' complexes", a condition that can be interpreted several ways. 1) The liar (the one compelled by the complex) is not worthy of the time of day let alone the truth or 2) one should always be careful to circumnavigate danger, such as not hiding Jews in the attic in 1944 Germany in the first place. In living for the truth Jesus took responsibility for the complexes of others. It is in this context that Jesus gave his life, something Bob is loathe to confess. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 17, 2013 22:57:10 GMT -5
Post by dmmichgood on Dec 17, 2013 22:57:10 GMT -5
Lee, I thought your comment to Bob, re: Teaching, was uncalled for and a low blow. What do we do without teachers. I am educated and glad for those that took the time to become educated, in order to educate me. Bob irritated me in responding to my post, "That's exactly why I refuse to buy the newspaper before noon. It reminds people that my mother doesn't have cancer yet." He was implying that my post was vacuous. As for my opinion about teachers goes, apart from the tendency for affluence and academia to insulate them or anyone else from reality, teaching is a noble profession. Here's my real grievance: Bob states he "accepts no responsibility for others' complexes", a condition that can be interpreted several ways. 1) The liar (the one compelled by the complex) is not worthy of the time of day let alone the truth or 2) one should always be careful to circumnavigate danger, such as not hiding Jews in the attic in 1944 Germany in the first place. In living for the truth Jesus took responsibility for the complexes of others. It is in this context that Jesus gave his life, something Bob is loathe to confess. |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 18, 2013 4:23:48 GMT -5
Post by lazarus66 on Dec 18, 2013 4:23:48 GMT -5
Lee,We don't all see eye to eye here. Sometimes that is because what is written or expressed is taken wrong.
Everyone has the right to their opinion whether or not we agree with it.
I didn't follow the entire poet, so I commented on what I saw and stand by that on it's own merit.
If you and Bob are having a sparring match, I will step aside and let you at it....
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Dec 18, 2013 5:00:10 GMT -5
Lee,We don't all see eye to eye here. Sometimes that is because what is written or expressed is taken wrong. Everyone has the right to their opinion whether or not we agree with it. I didn't follow the entire poet, so I commented on what I saw and stand by that on it's own merit. If you and Bob are having a sparring match, I will step aside and let you at it.... Don't worry, Lee. I'm probably quite eccentric. One of these times you will understand me and ... my goodness, I will begin to worry.  |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 19, 2013 20:02:27 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2013 20:02:27 GMT -5
Just a question that popped up for me. Why have workers at all if they are such a pain? Some truths are so funny ,it isn't funny! This has been a severe problem since the day of the inception of the workers and friends...I believe the workers would have been better off continuing their efforts like other religions, they do the evangelistic work and let the converts go to whatever church they so desire! Jealousy againsgt all the other churches caused many rebellious doings and it still has an effect! |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 19, 2013 20:06:11 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 19, 2013 20:06:11 GMT -5
It was meant to be serious. People want human leadership, just as the children of Israel did in OT times, to give them a tangible "kingdom". They've got it in the worker hierarchy. Things went so well for the beginning workers that I suppose they kept in mind where the bible is always speaking about a kingdom come....since some can't perhaps see it any other way, then the workers wanted a kingdom for themselves...and the only way for it to come was for them to take it by force. Wasn't that what Jesus said that some take the kingdom by force? |
|
|
|
Vietnam
Dec 19, 2013 21:29:53 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 19, 2013 21:29:53 GMT -5
Just a question that popped up for me. Why have workers at all if they are such a pain? Some truths are so funny ,it isn't funny! This has been a severe problem since the day of the inception of the workers and friends...I believe the workers would have been better off continuing their efforts like other religions, they do the evangelistic work and let the converts go to whatever church they so desire! Jealousy againsgt all the other churches caused many rebellious doings and it still has an effect! Condemning other churches seems to be against the rules about judgment. These are other Christian churches they are condemning. Do they really think they are better or understand the bible better than any other churches? I can understand it if it was condemning other religions. That just what religions do. But your own? Seems self defeating to me. |
|
I even wash the dishes. 
